ToA Compromise (in General)

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] May 3 2005 4:06 PM EDT

I was thinking about how ToA's give extreme bonuses to DX/STR and so-forth. And I was thinking, hey, I know alot of people want armor on their tanks, but the ToA makes that impossible. Well, that of course leads to these ideas.

QBRanger May 3 2005 4:14 PM EDT

Well since a TOA boost str and dex a boost to it may be in order.


Since str is not proportional to the damage you do. It takes a lot more str to get 2x damage, I think at least 4x str to get 2x more damage.

Dex is only good for seeing if you hit or if someone hits you. It has no effect on damage.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] May 3 2005 4:30 PM EDT

The ToA and ToE are very similar (unlike ALL the other tattoos) in that they boost stats of the wearer. Now the ToE boosts all the minions in a team. This has unbalanced things a bit, giving the edge to the ToE, once again. Since the gauntlet has been thrown, so to speak, it only makes sense to give the ToA the same attribute, therefore allowing it to affect all minions regarding dex, str, and evasion. Wearing armor with the tattoo would help the tank, but to be fair you'd have to allow this with all tattoos, so that's a bit more complicated. If you want bloodlust, train it. Instead of "armor piercing" I would suggest another stat, like ACCURACY. With all the dex and strength a ToA gives let the wearer dole out some CRITICAL HITS, like 2 to 3 times regular damage. Those are some ideas.

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] May 3 2005 4:33 PM EDT

Each of those ideas I posted was exclusive, so I'm not suggesting all at the same time. Just put a big "OR" between each one listed.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] May 3 2005 4:33 PM EDT

The size and frequency of the Critical Hits could be related to the size of the tattoo and the PR of the character, so it isn't abused by lower pr players.

maulaxe May 3 2005 4:34 PM EDT

boost the effects of the ToA, and make it possible to wear armor over your tat - but each piece of armor cuts 10-15% off the effectiveness. ie tat+helmet+gloves+boots should be roughly the same effect as it is now, but putting on armor and cloak lower the effectiveness 30%, and wearing no armor makes it 45% more effective.

this would work well with the recent change to damage reduction (ac just became more important in relation to endurance) so it would not be too overwhelming when combined with say, a combat gi and lots of UC.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] May 3 2005 4:37 PM EDT

I would suggest that the ToE is a defensive tattoo and therefore changes or benefits would be on the defensive side. The ToA is an offensive tattoo, therefore changes and boosts should be offensively oriented. That's why I would be in favor of adding Critical Hits to the ToA wearer, in line with the tattoo's major purpose--to increase damage.

chernobyl May 3 2005 5:31 PM EDT

The critical hit sounds kind of cool, but it also seems like people want it as a cheap shot on the ToE. Give the ToA wearer intrinsic bloodlust instead. This seems much more balanced, since BL has the drawback that more damage is taken.
An important point IMO, the rule has always been that you may not wear armor or cloak with a tattoo. This means that unless you have a ToE, the wearer receives more damage than a comparably armored minion. It seems to fall in line to make the only purely offensive tattoo, the ToA, grant its wearer bloodlust, effectively furthering both effects of the tattoo (those of making the wearer very strong, and subject to more damage).
The tattoo rule makes sense, and I don't see why an exception should be made, even at a penalty. I don't really think ToA needs the adjustment, but the intrinsic BL makes sense.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] May 3 2005 5:37 PM EDT

I actually like the idea of adding Bloodlust to the ToA. In summary, so far:

1. Add the multi-minion affect to the ToA, like it was done to the ToE
2. Add Bloodlust to the ToA

Jon, would you pleas take care of that? Thanks. :)

chernobyl May 3 2005 5:55 PM EDT

LOL if CB were only community-driven, everyone would have the same strat =)

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] May 3 2005 6:13 PM EDT

I asked for this a while back and got flamed for it...=/

i think ToA wearers hould be able to wear body armor, (like ToJ can be put on a DD'less / weaponless enchanter, which enables the Jig to go after the enchanter but before the 'armor' wearer)

I really like the idea of ToA affecting all minions too.

*smallpau1 sticks thumbs up, who is, yes, still

chernobyl May 3 2005 6:17 PM EDT

... and I'd flame you again if you had a keyboard. And you weren't in my clan. =)
Really, though, I always saw the tattoo/armor restriction as a fair balance, and still don't see why ToA should get an exemption, even with a corresponding penalty.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] May 3 2005 6:23 PM EDT

I agree--don't change the armor rule because you'd have to do it for all tattoos. The ToA needs more beef and the way to do it is to give it BLOODLUST and MULTI-Minion effect. It's an aggressive tatto, so keep it's focus on doing damage.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] May 3 2005 6:28 PM EDT

it already 'pretty' much is on some made ToJ so tanks could wear armor but still have theToJ in front of him...=/

spydah May 3 2005 6:42 PM EDT

bloodlust on toa = bad...


chernobyl May 3 2005 6:46 PM EDT

Any particular arguments you'd like to attach to that comment, spydah?

Maybe, "ToA + BL results in tanks taking too much damage" or "BL would give ToA tanks an unfair advantage because they could train Archery/Evasion"? (Both valid arguments, IMO)

Shrug, I still don't think that ToA needs adjustment at all, I just thought that it sort of fell in line with the purpose of ToA and the suggestion was on the table.

QBRanger May 3 2005 7:37 PM EDT

Personally I think BL on the TOA would be bad. I for one would not want BL on my TOA tank. If i did I would have learned it.

However, since a TOE works for all minions in a party, I do feel a TOA should as well. Just my 2 cents.

Becoming May 3 2005 7:40 PM EDT

In a short discussion with GentleManLoser, he presented the change I feel is most likely to happen with ToA's: the entire team gets the evasion bonus.

Jason Bourne May 3 2005 8:00 PM EDT

y not make the toa like a dd spell with regards to armor? you can wear any armor over it, but if you put on magic reducing armor, not only would it effect your magic and dex, but would also reduce the level of your tattoo. a corn would therefore add 5% to the level of your tattoo. just a suggestion.

QBRanger May 3 2005 8:20 PM EDT

O, Joy,

10 evasion, o joy o joy.

[-war-] May 3 2005 8:28 PM EDT

tattoos are armor though, cant put armor on armor. you can put cloak with armor though, so i think we should still be able to put on cloaks with a tatoo. as far as toa giving bonus to all minions I dont think that should be done. toe doesnt give much bonus to other minions either, actually i have never heard that toe gives endurance to more than the minion it is equipped on.

Lumpy Koala May 3 2005 9:09 PM EDT

haha go ahead, cut 40% of TOA's effectiveness and spread the lesser effect across all the minions. Woohoo... it seems so good that every ToA agrees to be nerfed :) Simply phenomenal

Devil Burrito May 3 2005 9:40 PM EDT

I saw don't fix what ain't broken >.> But maybe thats just me.

Its like this, you take alot of armor for a tank, or you that some big bonuses to DEX and STR. Not to mention you can pile on the heavy gear ( CML, MS, all that ) for some AC. I'm pulling 120 AC on my single ToA tank and i get by just fine.

LumpBot May 3 2005 9:43 PM EDT

Don't change ToA at all, I used to think it could be made better, tattoo should completely dominate others. I really think ToA is fine right now.

Bull3t F4c3 May 3 2005 10:44 PM EDT

or maybe..sometimes the toa wearer could deal out like 90% damage one round..but the next deal if the minion rested in order for a massive augmentation

Undertow May 3 2005 11:10 PM EDT

The ToA isn't really a boost at all, hasn't been since your tat added to your pr.

All a ToA gives you is xp, which is what your pr gives you. All other tattoos give you something you couldn't get with a little XP. Enderance, and another minion.

spydah May 4 2005 11:13 AM EDT


someone give undertow a cookie.


QBRanger May 4 2005 11:17 AM EDT

Instead of trying to fix a TOA, lets just see how the TOE changes work. I see now the SMTOE's are correctly powered, their scores are getting near their PR. And I think that was the main complaint.

Lets just see how the TOE effects the multiminion teams now.

Duke May 6 2005 4:14 AM EDT

ToA is fine any upgrade to the ToA will lead to tankblender.

QBJohnnywas May 6 2005 4:54 AM EDT

I like the ToA as it is. The one change I would make though would be to replace the evasion with protection. I know you could train it yourself but if it was built in it would make up for not being able to equip body armour.

But otherwise leave it alone!!!

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] May 6 2005 9:03 AM EDT

keep evasion, but something, i think could be added. HP would be nice. And the multi minion effect sounds good, lol....enchanter could fight then...=)

144k PR (with ToA), 105k MPR is still a bit high for just added stats and not a whole nother minion to fight for you.

3D May 8 2005 12:59 PM EDT

/me says add bloodlust!

Chargerz-Back May 8 2005 1:03 PM EDT

i like the multiminion idea for the ToA. i would then be forced to buy a Axbow and a Exbow
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