the writing on the wall (in General)

AdminJonathan May 11 2005 12:26 AM EDT

Almost ready to start including NW in the PR calculation. I think pretty much everyone saw this coming. :)

Basically, everything will count towards PR, except for a weapon "allowance." Since tanks need NW + ST combined to keep dmg growth up, weapon NW up to a point (about 2/3 of all the XP your minion has trained, since that's easier to calculate inside a trigger than what ST would turn out to be after all the bonuses are added in) doesn't count towards your PR. NW above that cap is counted normally.

Here's the top 20 by this rating:

        name         |  mpr   | mpr_plus_tattoo | new_pr
 The Apocalypse Book | 368707 |          512093 | 740063
 Gyaxx               | 234167 |          310972 | 738632
 Jochumia            | 321015 |          422933 | 731128
 Cau                 | 182597 |          284739 | 627258
 Magnus              | 185074 |          345322 | 588472
 Nardo Polo          | 331829 |          482478 | 585583
 Der Silberne Kuss   | 363809 |          432316 | 560053
 Bartlett            | 367426 |          490901 | 530552
 The First           | 387766 |          521118 | 521118
 Alienfb             | 291146 |          395102 | 509893
 Proteus II          | 299621 |          408820 | 483079
 Cougars             | 335888 |          446159 | 479106
 DragonSpooker       | 248592 |          357581 | 459996
 Spid                | 331589 |          439598 | 455741
 almuric             | 282576 |          376677 | 449590
 Black Belt Jones    | 322290 |          440293 | 444879
 Chicken Farm        | 222927 |          312866 | 443895
 The Peanut          | 297168 |          386425 | 441178
 Don Kixothe         | 184392 |          236241 | 438879
 cromar              | 292908 |          384492 | 417786

There's a few implementation details to work out still, but this is pretty close to how it's going to end up working.

QBsutekh137 May 11 2005 12:31 AM EDT

All but one above me can kill me, (I'm Cougars) and three below. Can't really see how Spid is below me other than that 2/3rd thing you mention (read it four times and still don't get it). So TAB and Gyaxx are just screwed on rewards now> I didn't hear any mention of a rewards change?

QBsutekh137 May 11 2005 12:32 AM EDT

Oh yeah...FIRST POST!!!!!!!!! This is important, y'all! I rule!

Mags May 11 2005 12:33 AM EDT

This coming change -- which is the best answer available to wealth disparity/USD$ -- plus new itemization have just added many new layers of depth to CB2 strategy. I can't wait to see what percolates to the top. It should be a lot of fun for everyone. Good luck on the new battlefield...

QBsutekh137 May 11 2005 12:35 AM EDT

I re-read it a fifth time and have a question. If I give my mage a melee weapon, only 2/3rds of his/her experience will count because of the weapon "allowance"?

Seriously, can we get a bit more elaboration on that point? This is a big deal. Obviously, I am not speaking for myself (/me checks empty wallet), but there are times when the world is bigger than poor old Chet. Really, there are!

QBRanger May 11 2005 12:36 AM EDT

Mage Blender it is.

Mages have no NW so they will get great rewards.

And none of this, "they need to upgrade their corn or COI"

2 million into each and their as good as before while the NW I need to beat. They keep growing as their DD spells just get more and more powerful with xp only.

Mags May 11 2005 12:36 AM EDT

Also -- will there be any service available offered to disenchant existing enchanted items for some (small) fraction of the original CB2$ invested, to allow players to downgrade parts of their equipment strategy to adapt to this?

AdminJonathan May 11 2005 12:39 AM EDT

Chet: no, mpr is always your baseline -- all this says is, if you have a huge weapon on a huge minion, there is a window there where some or all of the weapon's NW won't count towards PR. There is no negative PR generated by using a lowbie weapon.

deifeln May 11 2005 12:39 AM EDT

That's a great idea mags...get like 75% of NW back or something

QBRanger May 11 2005 12:40 AM EDT

Well what I think may happen is a lot of high level character being sold to forgers.

AdminJonathan May 11 2005 12:40 AM EDT

Ranger: sounds like you need a MgS. I hear Chet is selling. *ducks*

Mags May 11 2005 12:41 AM EDT

" That's a great idea mags...get like 75% of NW back or something "

Thank you. :) But it probably couldn't be nearly that high or forging could be potentially exploited to create large amounts of CB2$. I'd be pretty happy with 20-50%, or even just the ability to take items down at your penalty.

deifeln May 11 2005 12:42 AM EDT

I think Ranger is can a tank, who is now NW limited, compete with a mage? Or are rewards not going to be changed that much?

QBsutekh137 May 11 2005 12:49 AM EDT

Listen, baby-stealer! You just had a beautiful girl, so give GL's gorgeous boy back!

Anyway. Jonathan. I was looking for enough information so that people can make decisions about NW vs. growing MPR. This seems dang vague right now. A window? "Huge"? "Some"? If the answer is: "I am leaving this ambiguous", please, say so. But I am putting myself in Sefton's shoes (yes, projecting again) and saying, "OK, I want to now balance camping and battling in this new scenario". How can he possibly know what to do? What choices to make? Even worse, he will be close to the top, meaning it will be hard for him to judge via rewards. He won't have a baseline to work with...?

Same goes for Ranger. I don't think I need to tell you who these fellas are important. In any case, they are important to me. Oops, judging by my inanely garrulous nature this evening, perhaps that is not a good thing.


QBRanger May 11 2005 12:53 AM EDT


Number 1 PR.

Until I take off my armor, then number 3 PR, mini Woop Ranger only.

Now the game, for tanks, comes down to: How much can I unequip my character and still beat my fight list?

Will be interesting for me to find out. Do i really need that HOD with its 19 AC or can I do without it? etc...
Great way to plan a tank, a piece of armor here, another piece there. missing a helm, perhaps no boots, etc..

I figure my tank will be buck naked weilding a bow and hammer. And if you ever have seen my minions my new plan is to scare all comers to death even before missle with my teletubby body.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] May 11 2005 12:58 AM EDT

"(about 2/3 of all the XP your minion has trained, since that's easier to calculate inside a trigger than what ST"
There is the window chet. Thats just for weapons everything else goes straight to PR.

I guess this means a boost to lower minion count teams as well then as they get both a higher cap and more value out of the item.

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] May 11 2005 1:07 AM EDT

Just a quick questions.

You say 'weapon NW up to a point... doesn't count.' Does this refer to each weapon, individually, or to both your melee and ranged together? If they both together can only have 2/3 NW of your PR, then I guess this means another hit against any tank considering melee.

There is a lot more I could say, but I'll try to just restrain myself. I never really saw the problem with new players renting large weapons and doing well, or even the rare occassion where someone restarted with expensive stuff. I'm sure you'll work this all out for the best though Jon.

QBBarzooMonkey May 11 2005 1:12 AM EDT

Just a question of curiosity - Players spend a lot of CB2$ paying forgers to up the NW on weapons & armor, but it sounds like this is going to become detrimental at some point, so doesn't that make this a bit of a "forging for hire nerf" ?

Chargerz-Back May 11 2005 1:35 AM EDT

/me stabs himself in the heart

Phaete May 11 2005 2:15 AM EDT

Doesn't this mean that Tattoes will weigh double now then before, as their NW and their level is added to the new PR, or is this tatoo PR now dropped in favour of adding the tattoo NW?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 11 2005 2:21 AM EDT

Guys (and Gals) don;t forget that the top 10 are exempt from reward penalties for fighting beneath them.

Wanna not loss out, pump your items as much as you can to stay in the top ten. For the poor guy left at the number 11 spot, I just hope you can kill those above you.


moser May 11 2005 2:37 AM EDT

The top ten in score, not PR. Rewards are based on your PR versus their score aren't they?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 11 2005 3:37 AM EDT


Yeah, it's top ten by score that are exempt! I always wondered why that is... Sure the number one guy has to constantly fight below, but if you're number 1, everyone is no threat, and you shouldn't be getting normal rewards.

Besides, if the exemption was removed, it would make it easier to catch the number 1 character.

I can see people saving their BA till they send an item of to BS/Forge, to fight at a lower PR! ;)

Majestik Moose May 11 2005 3:44 AM EDT

Power Rating is a measure of how strong you are to me. (Aren't increased NW increased strength?)

[-war-] May 11 2005 5:23 AM EDT

Usualy people will have score above their pr, so in reality this change means nothing cept showing off their power, kind of like the u.s going to war in vietnam, but look what happend, lower power beat high power. Uh point is power is just showing off and even if you got high power good for you, you still get same rewards which usualy increase anyways over time as pr grows with score.

[EG] Almuric May 11 2005 9:56 AM EDT

Is the NW of the Tattoo counted towards the New PR? The tattoo is already counted once towards mpr_plus_tattoo, I don't think it should be counted again.

Chocolate Thunder May 11 2005 10:18 AM EDT


I don't believe it is. If you look at our naked friend, Avoid, his PR is unchanged.

AdminJonathan May 11 2005 10:19 AM EDT

tattoos are only counted once.

After sleeping on it, it seems more fair to make the weapon "window" party-based rather than minion-based, so the tank on a team with 3 enchanters gets the same allowance as a single tank of the same MPR.

Here's what the chart looks like with this change,

        name         |  mpr   | mpr_plus_tattoo | new_pr
 Gyaxx               | 234167 |          311338 | 707881
 Magnus              | 185797 |          346747 | 668096
 The Apocalypse Book | 369155 |          512757 | 654097
 Jochumia            | 321015 |          423408 | 634656
 PaulyBaby           | 146240 |          193930 | 564978
 Der Silberne Kuss   | 364906 |          433745 | 547408
 Nardo Polo          | 331829 |          482496 | 547136
 Bartlett            | 368994 |          492906 | 532527
 The First           | 387766 |          521385 | 521385
 Cau                 | 184709 |          287466 | 507076
 Proteus II          | 299969 |          409372 | 495689
 Alienfb             | 292192 |          396488 | 495129
 Cougars             | 336570 |          447069 | 480001
 Spid                | 331997 |          440214 | 456350
 almuric             | 283069 |          377334 | 450226
 Chicken Farm        | 224744 |          315255 | 446168
 Black Belt Jones    | 325230 |          443833 | 443833
 The Peanut          | 297632 |          387025 | 441762
 Don Kixothe         | 185109 |          237207 | 438948
 DragonSpooker       | 249020 |          358270 | 430922
to possible shut the "you're killing tanks" people up temporarily, here's all 20 players in the top 200 whose weapons would actually contribute to their PR:
        name         | delta
 Gyaxx               | 307855
 PaulyBaby           | 257510
 Maltese Cross II    | 208320
 Black Dog           | 101828
 dnnxone             | 101665
 White paladin       | 101655
 The Apocalypse Book |  93027
 Jochumia            |  88463
 Revelator           |  85687
 Neji                |  80835
 Don Kixothe         |  80496
 The Brak Show       |  61535
 Leoly               |  59368
 B Girl              |  52250
 Ivanhoe             |  47113
 The Blacksmith      |  34830
 Tenchi Muyo         |  29988
 BlueWater           |  24555
 Cau                 |   9164
 Il├║vatar            |   6754

QBRanger May 11 2005 10:22 AM EDT


I think sleep did you good.

Coming from a new dad myself, its a precious commodity now.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] May 11 2005 10:28 AM EDT

Ah #1 PR in game......much better :)

QBRanger May 11 2005 10:30 AM EDT

I do have to say one caveat.

This really hurt Sefton more than anyone and he's the person who played by the rules the most.

He camped and fought. Got great items camping and sold them.. He then put money back into his character instead of the usually-sell the item for USD or for CB2 then USD.

I can speak for myself, as everyone knows, I have used USD to get my NW up as have most of the other high NW people. But Sefton is the one person I know that has not. And he gets the highest penalty?

Sound like a problem to me. Sefton, I do feel for ya.

Arorrr May 11 2005 10:38 AM EDT

Does it matter for Sefton that much? I mean he's already #4 in score right now. Just make it harder for him to earn $/exp after the change. But then he got to be #1 PR, from #30.

Though I hope Jon will let us do a rescale on some of the items, like in CB1.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] May 11 2005 10:42 AM EDT

Thanks Ranger, I am going to do my best to roll with punches, fire a couple of minions maybe, something like that. Hopefully, in the end maybe its a lot more hype than hurt. I mean if my rewards go from average $150/35 to $125/25 no big deal. If its down to like $75/10, then I guess I will have to read the writing on the wall, for me it says, "camp, camp well, sell for USD" I figure all the gear on on my accounts could easily go for over 1K USD, and if I get rid of all the chars and create bunch of mules for gear and camp full time, shoot might get an extra $50-$100 a week, I mean I do pretty well as part time camper with high BA purchase costs, I should do even better as full time camper with low BA purchase costs.

[EG] Almuric May 11 2005 10:59 AM EDT

Adding the present score and rank of that score to Jon's table gets us:

   |        name         |  mpr   | mpr_w_tat | new_pr | Score (Rank)
 1 | Gyaxx               | 234167 |    311338 | 707881 | 476682 (4)
 2 | Magnus              | 185797 |    346747 | 668096 | 463818 (6)
 3 | The Apocalypse Book | 369155 |    512757 | 654097 | 633086 (1)
 4 | Jochumia            | 321015 |    423408 | 634656 | 513386 (2)
 5 | PaulyBaby           | 146240 |    193930 | 564978 | 221721 (120)
 6 | Der Silberne Kuss   | 364906 |    433745 | 547408 | 449529 (10)
 7 | Nardo Polo          | 331829 |    482496 | 547136 | 496116 (3)
 8 | Bartlett            | 368994 |    492906 | 532527 | 442438 (14)
 9 | The First           | 387766 |    521385 | 521385 | 459177 (8)
10 | Cau                 | 184709 |    287466 | 507076 | 442957 (13)
11 | Proteus II          | 299969 |    409372 | 495689 | 461194 (7)
12 | Alienfb             | 292192 |    396488 | 495129 | 448079 (12)
13 | Cougars             | 336570 |    447069 | 480001 | 448113 (11)
14 | Spid                | 331997 |    440214 | 456350 | 451788 (9)
15 | almuric             | 283069 |    377334 | 450226 | 433531 (15)
16 | Chicken Farm        | 224744 |    315255 | 446168 | 347642 (34)
17 | Black Belt Jones    | 325230 |    443833 | 443833 | 465263 (5)
18 | The Peanut          | 297632 |    387025 | 441762 | 409745 (18)
19 | Don Kixothe         | 185109 |    237207 | 438948 | 321238 (40)
20 | DragonSpooker       | 249020 |    358270 | 430922 | 430590 (16)
So, for instance, PaulyBaby would have a score so far below his pr that he'd get rewards so small that he would have no chance of catching up? And 'Der Silberne Kuss' is top 10 at the moment, so he'd get normal rewards but if he drops to 11 he gets reduced rewards?

How often is Score updated? Is this something that people on the edge will need to watch? It was pretty constant on CB1, but it fluctuates a lot here.

(On a side note, I find it interesting that 'Silberne' and 'Kuss' are in the dictionary but not 'Der'. Tired of complaints? Nice job.)

Nixon Jibfest May 11 2005 11:01 AM EDT

A big part of this game is balance. Seftons weapons are simply too big for his PR, and it's for this reason that jon's change makes sense. In sefton's case, a better balance for him is if he spent more BA fighting to increase his character stat and less BA camping (which ultimately increases his gear stats). Are you listening sefton? stop camping. =p

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] May 11 2005 11:09 AM EDT

Shoot I'm about ready to start camping :) Up til now its been sort of a fun thing to do along side devastating opponents and watching the elbow climb.

AdminJonathan May 11 2005 11:10 AM EDT

Sefton wouldn't be affected as long as he stays in top ten score, which is updated hourly. PaulyBaby would have to make some adjustments. I think that's fair. Yes, generally speaking the camp-uber-gear-then-start-a-new-char-with-it "strat" won't be viable. I don't have a problem with that, either.

(Almuric, that's just because 'Silberne' and 'Kuss' are long enough for CB to compare them against character names.)

CooperTX May 11 2005 11:12 AM EDT

So now the question is, when will this happen? Soon as in by the end of the month or soon as in any moment.:)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] May 11 2005 11:27 AM EDT

Now that is music to my ears, I can keep my score in the top 10 and if I can't that is my fault. Business as usual for me, sorry fight list here I come :)

[EG] Almuric May 11 2005 11:37 AM EDT

Something people should realize, too, is that one of the algorithms is that CB likes to have your Score equal your PR. So I think the top Scores will rise to match their PR and everyone else's Score will rise, too. Relative rankings shouldn't change, but I bet most people's (on this list) Score will rise by at least 50K shortly after this is implemented.

Arorrr May 11 2005 11:40 AM EDT


Duke May 11 2005 12:07 PM EDT

So if i get everything right as i will increase my MPR/Pr my weapon penality will decrease due to a increase in weapon allowance.Armor will give a fix increase in PR according to there NW.

Duke May 11 2005 1:01 PM EDT

I just done some quick reference

I have
7 659 894 NW on my weapon
MPR of 71,963
NW/MPR ratio of 106$ per 1 mpr

I ask shade for some info

NW 6,767,862 (weapon only)
44$ per 1 mpr

SO i would need to be 160K MPR to be inside the weapon allowance, that seem a bit low to me a 40/1 ratio.

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] May 11 2005 1:02 PM EDT

I have a question.

Since NW will affect PR, will it be true that we can simply shift huge armor/weapons around on our char and vastly change our PR?

And if that is the case, are you planning on implementing a unequipping armor penalty like the tattoo penalty or a unequipping armor/weapon cool-off period or something of the like?

I mentioned this a while ago, but this seems like "the next logical step" considering previous changes regarding players being able to erratically affect their own PR.

AdminJonathan May 11 2005 1:06 PM EDT

yes. I'm strongly leaning towards cool-off rather than penalty.

WeaponX May 11 2005 1:11 PM EDT

this helps mage teams so much

Arorrr May 11 2005 1:14 PM EDT

One more word: remove rental option also since rental market will die after the change

Manta May 11 2005 1:20 PM EDT

... or exclude the rented items from the computation of the NW.

QBRanger May 11 2005 1:42 PM EDT


2 questions:

First: So the "weapon/armor allowance" is minion based not party based? for example I have minions in my party with different amounts of total xp each due to various factors including strat changes. So each one would have an allowance to be measured against their equipment to determine the added PR?

Second: Right now Im in the top 10 score, but when I fight much lower PR/score characters my rewards certainly do drop off. But as stated earlier the top 10 should be immune to this fact. Anyone have an idea how low the top 10 can fight and still get "normal" rewards?


AdminJonathan May 11 2005 2:24 PM EDT

#1: see my fourth post in this thread

#2: that's right, if you fight down, you get the "normal" bonus for beating someone of that PR. (I think it's clear that giving you the same rewards for beating someone at 1PR would be stupid.) If you weren't in the top 10, you'd get even less.

this is why BA rate goes down as you gain PR -- there's less opponents to fight, so CB helpfully doesn't make you fight as often.

Duke May 11 2005 3:29 PM EDT

Why we dont have a united allowance so we have the choice of having huge weapon or a wall with a CoBF.Also looking a the last PR projection Sefton will have a pr higher that ranger ???.You know there is something wrong there.Also the penality should be base on our MPR via a % increase.My guess if sefton put is gear on a 1 Pr char will result in the same PR 700K

Devil Burrito May 11 2005 3:39 PM EDT

Erf, I still don't like this >.<

Devil Burrito May 11 2005 4:12 PM EDT

Few questions...

1. Is this more of an everything is weighted equally thing or are the 'crappier' items ( such as Whip or Sling ) on a curve? ( I.E 500k nw on a sling wouldnt add as much Pr as 500k on a ELB or a Corn might be wieghted differently then a Hard Leather Cap)

2. Would rental items get a 'discount' to their listing fees since the rental market will probly be hurt a little?

3.Would this item cool off effect items that are switched to other minions ( I.E testing different weapons out )

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] May 12 2005 2:49 AM EDT

If there is a 'cool off' period inserted into unequipping equipment, Please Jon, whatever you do, PLEASE let us see the exact NW of items we are currently wearing, and please let us use the blacksmith on unequipped as well as equipped items. Thank you :)

Picasso May 12 2005 2:57 AM EDT

WOOT! I'm on the lists! That's a first.

[Banned]Monty May 12 2005 3:02 AM EDT

I reallize i may get flamed or something by this response.

I myself think that adding NW to PR is a huge mistake. I was upset when Tattoos ot added to PR but i can see where that came in....because tattoo level is base on experiance which is what PR is but NW has nothing to do with EXP so i think that this is a huge mistake.


sssimmo May 12 2005 3:08 AM EDT

One thing i can think of Monty is that a high nw weapon = in "power" rating. although i am still on the fence on this change.

sssimmo May 12 2005 3:18 AM EDT

just to can already use nw to up your pr. there are two current ways.
-buy a bigger tattoo
-buy ba, use it to fight and gain xp.

the more i think about it...the more i don't mind this change.

Duke May 13 2005 12:33 AM EDT

I had think a bit about that change i come to the conclusion that will increase price even higher.A ELB X30 have less NW that a compound X30 so a rare will have less impact on NW better base score and cost less money to upgrade.

Mags May 13 2005 12:45 AM EDT


That assumes items aren't given a flat NW/PR penalty based on type or other things as well. I'm not sure, but I don't think I've ever heard Jonathan mention there wouldn't be some feature like this. The fact that there even is tinkering to be done with the formulae and implementation details suggests it's not nearly as simple as X NW = Y PR.

[FireBreathing]Chicken May 13 2005 1:02 AM EDT

So.. the more you forge, the faster you forge? Or is forge rate by you're mpr.

Duke May 13 2005 4:20 AM EDT

I did not mention a flat scaling.

I just saying that rare have better curve on NW so having a bone over a exec will hit harder cost less and having less impact on PR cap per X.I assume that most will move to many rare with low NW.

Also concentration on NW on few rare will not be a option anymore.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 13 2005 4:25 AM EDT

Yup. Dukes hit the nail on the head here.

Items are already balanced among themselves, the better, rarer items cost more because they have better base stats, better stat bonuses and are cheaper to upgrade than their lesser bretheren.

It will now not be worth spending cash to upgrade anything but the top of the line rare you want for that slot.

Save your cash until you have enough to get that rare.

But is this a bad thing?

AvoidCXT May 13 2005 10:30 AM EDT

Yay for naked!

Anyways, about the top 10 thing - You're only exempt from the fighting below your pr penalty when you fight others in the top 10, right? That's how it is on cb1.

Devil Burrito May 13 2005 3:22 PM EDT

Wont this thing hurt forgers? I mean... if you have a penalty for unequiping an item... then you have to trans it and make sure you dont exceed your pr... just seems like it could hurt >.<

chernobyl May 13 2005 3:38 PM EDT

Everyone remembers the tattoo adjustments of March - they were a direct result of people's PR getting too flaky from tattoo rotations. Won't the same effect occur on a larger scale now?
Do what you're going to do, Jon. I liked the idea of linking PR to NW - it can give a closer representation of actual power. Obviously, removing/equipping rares will cause that power to fluctuate, and it makes sense to represent this in the PR. Still, I can't shake the feeling that there's an opening for abuse here. Only time will tell.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 [SHIELD] May 13 2005 6:04 PM EDT

Chicken, it is indeed based on MPR for forgers, not PR

AdminJonathan May 13 2005 6:44 PM EDT

sefton: as I explained in the other thread,

if you [as someone in the top 10 scores] fight down, you get the "normal" bonus for beating someone of that PR. (I think it's clear that giving you the same rewards for beating someone at 1PR as for beating Ranger would be stupid.) If you weren't in the top 10, you'd be subject to the lowbie-penalty and get even less.

this is why BA rate goes down as you gain PR -- there's less opponents to fight, so CB helpfully doesn't make you fight as often.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] May 13 2005 7:06 PM EDT

Im not sure if my observational evidence agrees with your statement their or not. I do know that my rewards when fighting Nardo are about the same always, but Cougars, is now greatly reduced. If the exemption applies to all my fights, not just the top 10 fights, maybe I just need to be patient and let the scores shake out, then fight that list of 20-30 people and see how it goes. As it is now, 7 people do my right, everyone else doesn't, so now I fight 7 people until it changes.
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