Can the top ever be reached? (in General)
By players that aren't already there? Without some kind of outside influence?
Quite frankly, I've come to the conclusion that it can't. It's the mechanics of the game.
I'm not talking about the NUB here, or people that wake every three hours to spend all their available BA.
The top echelon has been established, and as rewards get greater the higher you get, even though you get *slightly* less purchasable BA, ost's don't really increase (xp increases are neglible), the top flight is fixed. Everybody above you has the same if not greater character growth you do, the only way to pass them (and it's not by fighting more... Let's assume everyone here wakes every three hours. Those that don't get left behind even more...) is to hope for an outside influence.
The player above you decides not to fight anymore, but forge. Or gets jaded/bored by the game and leaves. Or you invest dollars to buy yourself a top character.
There is no way to get there with your own character using game mechanics.
As long as everyone else above you is still active.
Personally, I think this sucks, and the realisation has drained a lot of the draw the game had for me.
An example I'd like answered / discussed;
If every one of the top ten fights an equal amount. Can the 11th place guy ever get any higher without an outside influence?
I really can't see a way of it happening...
July 3 2005 6:19 PM EDT
If fighting an equal amount, I too don't see a way of catching the top ten. But as it's been said before, the true way to make it to the top is time invested. A lot could happen over 6 months, a year. One of the top ten may have obligations that take them away for an extended period of time. You never know. Only time will tell.
Personally I'm quite happy not being in the top ten. One of the allures of CB, to me, is to figuring out ways to tweak my strategy to beat that person that's been farming me for a week. When it's a success, it's very enjoyable. K_Bear and I have been bouncing back and forth for a while now, and I finally got Reebok :P So I'm not in the upper echelon, but it sure is fun duking it out in the mid range echelon.
It's like being in a dead end job, where the only room for advancement is waiting for one of the guys/gals above you to leave...
Even if it's only for a two week vacation.
Doesn't really give me much enthusiasm to try to work my way to the top.
And I'm sure the moment new players figure this out, it will make it less appealing to stay...
July 3 2005 6:27 PM EDT
CB1 already proved you wrong....
July 3 2005 6:27 PM EDT
However some things you need to know:
First, my rewards are worse then most people in the game esp above 100k MPR. My average xp for any fight is 25xp for minion in a 4 minion team and my average money is 175$.
Second, I have the 2nd most fights initiated. Should that not matter at all. Why, yes, I should be near or at the top since I have fought the most. Every game that has leveling in it is this way. The people who play the most, have the highest level characters. What is wrong with that? GL; you have 125k fights as attacker, I have 222k fights as attacker. Think of that, I should be much higher and as long as I continue to fight as much as I do, there should be no way you can catch up to me. Would that then be fair to me?
Third, There is one NUB character that is in the top 10 already and if they would hire 2 more minions, and possibly convert to a tank would be in the top 3. So with the NUB it can be done, Death Spawn is an example of that.
Fourth, It really irks me, no really upsets me that people want to be at the top but dont want to play like the top. Everyone at the top, except Death Spawn, has played a lot to get there. Now it seems everyone wants to crash the party but not pay the price in time and effort. Myself, Gyaxx, Jochumia, Bartlett, Cougars, Cau, Imp, The First are all established characters. DAWG has played Magnus like a madman since he got him.
Fifth, There are characters with less battles who have a higher score than you, yes that is true. Some have pumped USD into the game to be at the top. Its an unfortunate thing about CB, but its one of the ways the game is played. I realize that some cannot do that and that is one of the reasons NW/PR has been added.
If you want to be at or near the top, then play everyday. Buy all the BA you can, even on Sundays when you don't have the clan bonus. Get in a great clan with a large bonus. Fight only battles you win. I have only lost 2k battles I attacked, but you GL have lost 10k of them. But don't moan about how you cannot get to the top of the standings unless you put in the time and effort needed.
July 3 2005 6:31 PM EDT
But the only way out of a "dead man's boots" scenario would be to have us all chasing different goals, like working on quests or exploring realms (read: a MUD or subscription role-playing game).
This game has always been human vs. human. That means everyone is entitled to take their best shot. We aren't all just trying to reach level 50 (like many MUDs) or explore new servers when Sony decides to add them (EverQuest).
What alternative to you suggest, GL?
The "dead-end" you speak of is where the community comes in. We have politics, popularity, trivia, conversation, debate, back-stabbing, bandwagons, economy, disenchantment, and fanaticism. It's fun. I am thinking you enjoy the talkie-talkie just as much as I do?
Bart, I thought CB1 prooved this... Isn't the loudest thoery for CB2 that Spid got too big for the game, and new players were being turned off by being unable to catch him?
Ranger, thanks for making this personal to my main. I never once said I thought I fought enough to warrant a top place. But now, if I do, I can *never* get there...
"First, my rewards are worse then most people in the game esp above 100k MPR. My average xp for any fight is 25xp for minion in a 4 minion team and my average money is 175$."
That's strange... I gain more total xp/cash from my rewards the higher I get. Is this a problem from having to fight down? But I tohught you were exempt from that?
"Second, I have the 2nd most fights initiated. <snip> there should be no way you can catch up to me. Would that then be fair to me?"
Fair? You click more you win. Is it fair to the guy who finds the game tomoorw that they can never catch you? Or should CB2 be just for those who signed up on the 1st of Jan and started clicking right away?
"Third, There is one NUB character that is in the top 10 already and if they would hire 2 more minions, and possibly convert to a tank would be in the top 3. So with the NUB it can be done, Death Spawn is an example of that."
Ah.. The NUB. The great equaliser. Apart from all those that don't qualify for it...
That's great for you! Yeah, I changed characters for a while, un trained stuff, etc... But I've spent BA just about every day of CB2. Not harcore, but mostly enough. Again, I know I wasn't hardcore enough to get to the top from the start, *But if I want to do it now, it's impossible for me*...
Ranger, Quite frankly I don't want to wake myself every three hours to stand a chance at becoming number ten.
But please, think about the reasoning of my complaint, not the personal application. Forget about GL and Tal. Imagine the 30 harcore every 3 hours players. Ten of which are in the top 10.
Can the other 20 ever get there?
(Without the top ten leaving? Or the unavoidable injection of USD...)
Hahahaha Chet! ;) Got me on one.
"I am thinking you enjoy the talkie-talkie just as much as I do?"
That's what I enjoy most at the moment. :)
"What alternative to you suggest, GL?"
A simple one I suggested a while ago. Scrap the NUB and Top ten exemption. Level the playing field. Make it hard for the top ten to keep their possition. Make them work for it harder than the rest of us... But then, that would be 'fair' on them, would it...
The "dead-end" you speak of is where the community comes in. We have politics, popularity, trivia, conversation, debate, back-stabbing, bandwagons, economy, disenchantment, and fanaticism. It's fun.
I'm not denieing that, but CB is a Strategy RPG. That's what new players orignally come here for (uinless a mate's asked them to join to help them out / or for a way of staying in contact).
Don't you think a year down the line we'll have the same problem CB1 did? New players turned off by the elite/Noob division, and no real way to make it to the top?
Without an incentive to fight. What's left to spend BA on? Forging, camping?
Or should CB2 be a message board/chat room?
July 3 2005 6:54 PM EDT
GL, I've always respected your opinions and posts, they've always been thought provoking, but this one seems like you are whining.
You assume that the main motivation of ever player is to be in the top 10. There's more to CB than just that. There's the community for one is awesome (most of the time), forging, camping, and my favorite, coming up with new strategies.
I've resigned to the fact that I'll never be in the top ten because I like to try new strategies so much. But that doesn't make the game any less fun. Why do you put so much weight in being the top player?
I'd like to hear from people in the top 20-50 as well, not just GL.
July 3 2005 6:59 PM EDT
Did the top get where they were without an outside influence?
No, so that would easily explain how they got there ;)
July 3 2005 7:03 PM EDT
Frankly GL, I don't see you point.
Why are you upset no one who just starts can reach the top? Would that not make all the playing others have put into the game moot? I really don't see why you have to bring this subject up again.
If you really really want to make it that new players have a chance to be at the top, its very simple. Actually very very simple. Just restart the game with everyone at new characters every 3 or 6 months. Eliminate all characters AND items. That alone would decrease the USD infusions to barely any. It would give everyone in the game at that time the chance to be the top character. It would allow others to have a chance to hit the pinnacle. And people who start in that 3 month period can learn the game for a month or two and be ready for the next reset to attack the ranking ladder.
But.. this is not that game. Its a game that the people in the beginning who were here from the start have the advantage. Why cannot people understand that fact. I have never restarted or played a different character. Now you bring up the point about the 11th character not getting into the top 10 without outside influence. BAH. Look at CT. He made a great new strat, the FB/FF/DM that rocketed up the ladder. If he did not make up that strat, he is the one who at least perfected it. There are characters in the current top 20 that can break the top 10 "roof" if they tweak their character, add some NW to their items, get a new minion. It is entirely possible.
:( Sorry Boo, I don't want to sound like I'm whining... Well not overtly... I don't want things handed to me, and I don't expect greatness.
I just want the chance if I ever decide to try for it. As it stands, the only way that would have been possible for me, is to have done it from day 1.
:) I agree there are many layers to CB, and some diverse tastes! I love the strategy, one of the main reasons I'm quite low (and have a low win percent) is I messed strats around with my main.
I love the community. I dislike forging and camping and used to love fighting. For me, fighting hard core *was* to reach number 1. What other reason is there?
But you've giving me a new direction. I can use fighting to flesh out my strategy ideas / discussions.
I still think it's sad that you, and now I, have "resigned to the fact that we'll never be in the top ten" because I think it takes something away from the game.
It's just like saying fighting is really for only the top X of characters, as none of you others have a chance of getting there...
I'd like to see how many people fight to try to get tot he top. I'd guess it was the main reason...
I hate the idea of re sets... But that's just my perception of an RPG. It's to watch and make your character grow.
Games that re set just seem like a waste of time to me.
But that's just personal opinion! ;)
Would it be possible to make a poll to judge why people fight? If the majority are fighting to try to be number 1 (or somewhere near the top..), doesn't it seem wrong that they'll never get there?
My point. I'll sum it.
For a game that revolves around fighting, but is open ended (no set goals, like level XX Chet mentioned, or quests, etc), the only 'aim' is to create the best character. If I can never get there, never reach the 'aim', then why fight at all?
As others have pointed, there *are* other things to do in CB, but this game is based on it's fighting. Not the forge or the stores.
July 3 2005 7:20 PM EDT
GL i think you are totally wrong. i currently have a 150k PR char and i fully expect to get back in the top ten. why you ask? because every strat has a weakness even Ranger's and if you are bright enough to find it you can beat him.
July 3 2005 7:28 PM EDT
Boo, I think what GL is saying is that maybe now he has the will or the desire to be number one (or maybe just number 10).
His question is that can he now ever fulfill this new (or renewed) desire if there was a way? He is asking himself if he does everything Ranger says to do, wake up every three hours, spend all his BA, challenge only fights he can win, is it possible anymore? Is his only option now to leave and to come back as GL Jr.? The answer he feels is a flat out no.
GL, I think what you miss from Boo's reply is that he does have a purpose to fight, he has a rival. He has a moving target which is not just in reach, but is also cunning enough to get away from him. For Boo, he get's a chance to be number one everytime he beats Koala or whoever his target is at the moment. Then when Koala starts to beat him, he get's chance to struggle up to her once again.
I myself have a rival and a target, it isn't ranger either. It's someone who I was beating consistantly just a few days ago, but who now has the upper hand, or so he would think.
yes, this situation sucks
but at least CB2 solves it halfway: if you play as hard as the top players from the time you start, just like they did, you will be able to catch up thanks to the NUB. which is why I like the NUB and some people currently at the top are scared of it.
I have no brilliant ideas to allow people who have been slackers to catch up while keeping CB2 fair for everyone else.
July 3 2005 7:36 PM EDT
Then why not let those who want a chance to be at the top, restart, that is elimate their current characters etc.. and start over with the NUB?
July 3 2005 7:37 PM EDT
I would start fresh if I could have the NUB again.
Megaman... You miss the point. It doesn't matter about your strategy. That's great if you can find a way to specialise and beat Ranger! But to get to the top, you need to do what Ranger suggests, and GPV re iterated above.
But what happens if Ranger does those same things himself? *How* can you narrow down his PR gap if he wins the same amount, heaven forbid more, fights than you?
GPV :) that's great you have an aim, one I hadn't considered.
Maybe, Realms are the answer... LOL! going back to something Chet mentioned... (And this is just off the top of my head) Maybe people should be seperated into thier realms. The top go and play in Valinor, the new guys who start today play versus themselves in the Shire.
Or maybe we need tournaments again...
July 3 2005 7:44 PM EDT
GL, it is certainly not impossible to reach the top ten, or even the top for that matter. You just have to put in a great amount of effort. Take my case for example-- I started Krang at the beginning of February as a farm. A week or two later I started using him as my main and I just recently went from #12 mpr to #9 mpr. I have even missed between 21 and 28 full days of BA due to vacations and the like. I have gone short 2-4 day periods a couple of times where I've used all the BA I could possibly use, but normally I sleep for at least 8 hours. A total guestimate of BA used versus BA possible in my near 6 months using Krang would be between 65-75%. That's not a real great effort by any means. It would give me a C or a D in any school. But I've made it to the top ten. I'm here and I'm proof that you can make it up to the top if you just put in the time. It might take a while, but you can get there too if you just put your nose to the grindstone.
I'm sick of people who complain that they want it all and they want it now. Go watch Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory to see what I think should be done with these "Veruca Salts". Don't you feel much better about accomplishing something if it takes a whole lot of effort to complete it?
Haven't I said many times in this thread I don't want to be gifted with anything...
Memnot, that's great what you did with Krang! Just one question, did you use USD on him at all?
In both this thread and the Sunday Musings, the NUB is the method created to give new users the chance to try for the top, if they want it.
I guess it's just tough luck for those that created their characters before the NUB (because it really wasn't needed then..) who didn't through one means or another (hard grinding, USD, CB1 sale, great strats, Referals, selling their souls...) get to the now established top.
If new users can get there, good luck to them.
GL, I'm growing faster than Ranger. My rewards are larger than his. This character has already been top 10 in score a few times. I'm top 25 in PR and top 40 in MPR... I started this character a month and a half ago and I do miss BA. Will I get to the top 10 in MPR with this character? Maybe. I did it with BBJ even though I started him over a month after the rest of the top 10 started.
The key to growing quickly is to beat big people. TAB/Gyaxx/Almuric can't beat anyone big, as there is no one. They don't get penalized for fighting low, but they don't get big rewards either. The 11th place guy/gal needs to have a strategy to beat most of the 10 people above him/her to grow faster than them or they will stay at #11.
The top 10 is never out of reach with a reward savvy strategy and patience.
Thanks CT! I think that was something I needed to hear.
But won't you get the same problem when you can no longer win big due to thining targets (or you getting closer to your only targets and getting smaller and smaller rewards) while they stay just that bit more larger than you?
Last thought before I go to bed.
"Chet, anyone who stays long enough for his NUB to wear out (4 months)"
Is the NUB a fixed amount of 4 months, or does it ever increase in length?
If not, a year + down the line, when people have 1Mil + PR characters, who much is 4 months of increased rewards actually going to help?
So new users can reach the top ten now, if they try really hard with the NUB. Will they be able to do the same in a year? Or will rewards or length increase to compensate?
Either new users are going to get a terific boost to give them a shot at the top (which don't they desere?), or they don't get that chance at all...
July 3 2005 8:26 PM EDT
GL, I did use USD to purchase 3 mil CB2 and to pay for two item namings (I bought supportership with a ToJ and 30k back when those were actually worth something). Aside from that I've just been lucky to get into a good clan and to make friends with some people that have helped me out a whole lot.
There's no reason that anyone else couldn't do this.
In all seriousness though, I would never go into any game, or any pursuit for that matter, thinking that I could be the best of the best in much less time than anyone else. That's just me though. Jon seems to have something different in mind for his game, I'm just a little disgruntled that my "accomplishment" has been reduced because of the gamemaker's affinity to the new user. It's totally up to him though and I can do nothing more than voice my opinion (You can call it 'whining' if you want, but I reserve the right to label your opinion in turn.), however little that seems to do. I'm just goiing to continue playing this game until I can't have fun anymore and then I'm off to bigger and better pursuits. I can't help but feel I'm playing a different game and longing for the old game though.
please go read the post where bartjan talks about how the NUB works, GL
it's not like I haven't thought this through :P
July 3 2005 8:50 PM EDT
I don't need to be at the top...
As long as I know how 90% (or 99.9% for some of the people that know me) of the game works its fine by me :)
July 3 2005 9:06 PM EDT
I have one other immediate comment to make, one about human nature concerning elitism and new/veteran division.
As far as I am concerned, anyone turned off by new player/veteran division can just go hang.
GL, I thought like you when CB2 was created. I was sooooo excited. A lot of people whined about Spid, including me. But hey, at least I had kicked him around a few times (granted, for only short durations). When CB2 was announced, I focused on the future.
I felt in my marrow that folks were foaming at the bit for a level playing field. Put the pedal to the metal and let's see what we can each do in our Reliant K Cars as CB2 began.
Then human nature took over. USD, CB1, supportership bonuses -- these things helped dozens of people leap out to incredible head-starts. So much for people wanting an even playing field.
GL, folks don't want a level playing field. They want a playing field where they win and everyone else loses. I have been accused of that exact ailment myself, and I _have_ had it. I don't any more, that is why I lashed out so inappropriately at Sefton a couple weeks ago when I thought he was saying I was fighting for my own gains. We worked it out, and he understands I just don't care enough for those ulterior motives to even apply to me anymore.
But I can guarantee you that people don't want fair. Like I said, this is a human game. That means the players will act human, using everything they can to win, including rationalization and uncharacteristic actions. I have seen it and felt it and been surprised so much that my innate optimistic instinct is 100% incorrect here on CB2. I recently discovered that instinct still holds true over on CB1, and I was grateful for the sustenance.
Jonathan himself said in this thread, "it sucks". It does. I don't understand, for example, why people are still leveraging CB1 for CB2 cash. For goodness sake, just knock it off. Yeah, that's a dare. Stop using CB1 for CB2 cash. It's lame. I am having a ball on CB1 right now just running up a tank using an old comp. bow I had, rentals, and a somewhat non-standard single tank strategy. I won't use a single CB1 dollar for here. CB! dollars are no good here, in my opinion. I see Ranger, GB, and Bast popping in to use their BA on CB1 from time to time, and I know that they are doing it (mainly) for the cash. Sorry to name names, they just pop to mind because I saw them recently (even had a rather nice conversation with Ranger -- we get along famously). And I will fully admit to being angry that Lorenzo (GB's character) is not one I can beat any more here on CB2 because his NW is increasing faster than I can keep up. Watch the CB2/CB1 cash sales on CB1 and you will understand why.
Do I want CB1 to stop? Hell no. Can it be controlled? Hell no. But the folks that I know are using CB1 money for CB2 gains could stop if they wanted to. An honor system. You might argue, "But Chet/Sutekh, anyone can do the same! So it's fair!" Yeah, anyone can. Or, everyone could just stop, and play both games if they wish, enjoying each game's unique tastes and tricks. These games are fun. They are fun _independently_. I am calling on folks to play each as if they were a separate world, because you know what? They are separate. They are VERY different. And I, for one, would like to see how everyone does within each microcosm.
Ranger asks: "Then why not let those who want a chance to be at the top, restart, that is [eliminate] their current characters etc.. and start over with the NUB?"
if CB2 existed in a vacuum, that would be an option, but it doesn't.
people would sell everything for USD or even CB1, THEN take the starting-over option.
July 3 2005 9:33 PM EDT
Kinda goes along with my human nature post directly before Jonathan's. It's a pretty dang powerful argument.
Ranger, if you think it could work any other way, would you be willing to stop using CB1 cash for CB2 gains? It seems like the same thing to me. I would LOVE to see a fresh start for everyone. Sadly, it just can't work that way.
That is why it sort of wraps into GL's whole sentiment... Finding a way to reach the "top". We all have to find our way to our own "top", because there is always going to be something that we individually perceive as "cheating" getting in the way. I am the epitome of this phenomenon, so know of which I speak.
Jonathan does his best to give everyone devices to just...have fun. He can't build a world that immerses everyone into a purely virtual life. If he could to that, he would wear a white suit and be called The Architect. *grin*
July 3 2005 9:54 PM EDT
To be honest i realy dont care......i started in march......but i will be the 1.......and there can be only 1............................
thats just my thoughts on it.......... :)
July 3 2005 9:59 PM EDT
DonMega is Highlander! You rock, dude! More power to you! *smile*
July 4 2005 12:02 AM EDT
Well not to add gas to the fire but I started in mid May and I am happily ripping thru the ranks and if nothing breaks snaps or tears I will be gracing the top 25 by the end of the month in MPR.And I have never played CB1 or spent a single USD to get there. I crank out practically as many fights per day as any of the elders and I am glad to see myself closing in on them. Like I have said in other threads I understand where the elders are coming from with their arguments but I still firmly believe that the NUB basically makes them get up from their laurels and get to fighting and tweaking their strats because they now know newbs like myself are on their way up there.
"if CB2 existed in a vacuum, that would be an option, but it doesn't.
people would sell everything for USD or even CB1, THEN take the starting-over option."
Nah, I wouldn't do that, I would sell all my equipment and money to a mate for USD, retire to gain the NUB, then buy it all back from him for the same amount...
;) But then that's just sneaky...
Probably I'm just feeling a little frustrated, a little jealous even. I wanted to aim for number 1, but I'm never going to be able to get there. Others that put more effort into it are. People that get the NUB are.
But I still have a reason to fight, I'll just make that my new goal. I'm in a great clan, and can help my clan mates by fighting for the clan. So that's what I'll do.
Maybe something will be changed in the future that will allow me the chance to aim for the top spots.
Until then, top 10!
July 4 2005 2:49 AM EDT
"I'm in a great clan, and can help my clan mates by fighting for the clan"
FINALLY !! We are mentioned !!!
Well my char is doing great catching up too, doing exactly as what CT said. Although the char is started in Feb, but it's kinda abandoned until May. So in a matter of 2 months I got into top 25 MPR, it just need persistence + strategy :) And I don't play on weekends or inhuman late nights :P Well ok, maybe that's why I am in top 25 instead of top 15.
This thread is closed to new posts.
However, you are welcome to reference it
from a new thread; link this with the html
<a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001POf">Can the top ever be reached?</a>