Archery nerf; BG update (in Changelog)

AdminJonathan July 6 2005 4:05 PM EDT

I dislike using the word "nerf" to describe changes, but yeah, this is a nerf: Archery no longer grants extra damage; its only effect is to allow your bow to fire during the 2nd range round.

BG now grants extra damage during ranged combat to any weapon. (BG hasn't affected chance to fire for a while now, in case that's news to some people. As in, it never did during CB2.)

Undertow July 6 2005 4:07 PM EDT


Myonax July 6 2005 4:08 PM EDT

One mans nerf is another mans buff.

Ox [StephenMelinda Gates Fund] July 6 2005 4:08 PM EDT


Admin{CB1}Slayer333 [SHIELD] July 6 2005 4:09 PM EDT

whoo! down with those overpowered ELBs!.....whats that....darn....they still kill me ; )

SaintMichael July 6 2005 4:10 PM EDT

That's a horrible change but makes sense. But still!

[T]Vestax July 6 2005 4:15 PM EDT

regular bow down, xbow and sling up (if you get BG's that is). It's mostly what people were asking for. You may not notice a thing if you were already a Archer with BG's.

Undertow July 6 2005 4:28 PM EDT

25% damage reduction? Trust me, you notice.

Arorrr July 6 2005 4:30 PM EDT

Burn Undertow first babby!

[Jedi] Danludar July 6 2005 4:30 PM EDT

that hurt jon that really hurt man lol this sucks oh well

QBRanger July 6 2005 4:32 PM EDT

interesting "change".
probably the best for gameplay though.

WeaponX July 6 2005 4:33 PM EDT

can we make BG's slightly easier to upgrade then? make them a step down from TG's to upgrade.

chernobyl July 6 2005 4:39 PM EDT

My math says 0.6% damage increase per enchantment on BG's. The largest BG's in the game now grant 7.2% extra damage. That's a far cry from the 40% that a 1.00 Archery used to grant.
This assumes that the extra damage formulae have not been changed.

Warchild July 6 2005 4:45 PM EDT


Relic July 6 2005 4:45 PM EDT

I have to say that this was probably a good change, however, when you are doing so much less damage it really throws you for a loop. Also, I agree that BG's should have lessened upgrade costs due to this change.

Aco July 6 2005 4:51 PM EDT

axbows get even more useful now, as well as bloodlust :D

Karmic Mishap [Soup Ream] July 6 2005 4:56 PM EDT

Yikes! What's the effect of having a less-than 1.00 Archery, then, if archery serves only to allow a bow to fire in the second ranged combat round? Half a shot?? Less damage or accuracy?

bartjan July 6 2005 4:58 PM EDT

A .90 Archery gives a 90% chance of firing in round 2. Always has been like that.

Undertow July 6 2005 5:16 PM EDT

Okay, I'm gonna put some math up here, let me know if I get this right:

At maxed, archery without belegs did 40% extra damage.

So, if without archery you were doing:

1: 100k

2: *blink blink*

3: 100k

Then after a full thing of archery you were doing

1: 140k

2: 140k

3: 140k

And now your doing:

1: 100k

2: 100k

3: 100k

So, archery went from giving a (420/200) 110% bonus to a 50%.

150/210: A loss of about 29% total damage in ranged.

Undertow July 6 2005 5:20 PM EDT

Also, multiple shots don't matter, as archery didn't affect them, and multiplying everything for 2 shots would produce the same results.

sssimmo July 6 2005 9:20 PM EDT

Firstly, this is not a whine about changes! Just an observation and idea.
With this damage reduction shouldn't archery then in turn be made to cost less XP wise?? Seems like a massive cost to get one measly little round extra per fight. 1/6 of ST or even 1/5 sounds alot more cost effective.

Flame if you dare. (one thing worse than whining is whining about whining)...ha i've out done myself again.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] July 6 2005 9:25 PM EDT

Yea sssimmo has a good point, maybe 1/5 would be good to be at its full strength now.

TheEverblacksky July 6 2005 10:19 PM EDT


TheEverblacksky July 6 2005 10:22 PM EDT

this destroys my fightlist.... /me braces for ToA nerf

QBsutekh137 July 6 2005 10:24 PM EDT

S2P, maybe that was it. *smile*

TheEverblacksky July 6 2005 10:50 PM EDT

chet, your just looking to make teams like mine to be messed up, i know that :)

QBsutekh137 July 6 2005 10:54 PM EDT

Damn me and my true desires! *smile* You will still own me, my friend. I guarantee you that.

TheEverblacksky July 6 2005 11:17 PM EDT

heh, only sometimes i do think about being able to beat you :P

CoolWater July 7 2005 6:07 AM EDT

So this is why I start to lose some of my fights and got farmed more.
The last time round, my CobF got nerfed, now the archery. Maybe I should go back to camping. :(

AdminShade July 7 2005 6:19 AM EDT

sssimmo: one measely round of damage?

1 round could mean some 250k damage atm if i'm not mistaken...

the change from the 40% enhanced damage to 0% is quite a difference indeed, but it is to make other ranged weapons a bit more balanced, since Jonathan doesn't want to buff the xbows he just takes the bows down ;)

5583 days old {Gaza} July 7 2005 7:48 AM EDT

yet still ELBows are a better choice than every other ranged weap...

[T]Vestax July 7 2005 9:13 AM EDT

/me thinks that staff sling is looking pretty tempting, then comes back to his senses.

Yohan July 7 2005 9:19 AM EDT

chernobyl mentioned .6% damage increase per enchantment for BG

Is this what others are also coming up with just for curiosity sake?

miteke [Superheros] July 7 2005 9:36 AM EDT

I for one am quite glad. Having taken 450K damage in a single round from a ELB before the nerf, while every other form of damage was dong a lot less, I'm quite glad to see it do more reasonable damage.

Quark July 7 2005 10:34 AM EDT

This doesn't change the ELB's 6 base damage - 50% more than any xbow and ability to fire in round 2 with archery. I'd still like to see a buffed up sling at X4 - you can then choose a sling for all three rounds of ranged or go for more damage from a compound / ELB and get archery.

AdminShade July 7 2005 10:53 AM EDT

indeed Beleg's had a damage % increase based on the enchantments...

G_Maximus: the 6 vs 4 base damage isn't making them do 50% more damage...

Shark July 7 2005 11:09 AM EDT

nice change Jon..( the price tag of Beleg's Gloves just went up )..Got to go find me a few pairs now (v)oo(v)

Xiaz on Hiatus July 7 2005 11:12 AM EDT

What is this? Too much discussion. I'm gonna dumb this thread down, wish me luck.

No! j00 can't do dat! No! My stratedgy is ruined! No! Dat's sit I quit! No!

/me walks into a wall. A spelling check wall, yes a spelling check wall.

Quark July 7 2005 11:44 AM EDT

Isn't that what the base damage is supposed to mean? So a 6X10 ELB should do 50% more damage per shot than a 4X10 Composite? (A little different with Xbows & slings due to ammo differences, of course). Or am I befuddled somewhat?

AdminJonathan July 7 2005 12:09 PM EDT

the only thing you can say wrt base damage is "larger is better"

specifically, 6x is not 1.5 times 4x

AdminShade July 7 2005 12:11 PM EDT

mostly because Jonathan's hidden damage formula that includes: the base damage, the damage enchantment, the ST of the minion, the St of the target, the AC, protection, endurance, ammunition for ranged weapons.

Kilobot571 July 7 2005 1:06 PM EDT

I use Archery and it helped me alot, though it is a good change in my opinion, brings down the overpowered ELBs

Frod July 7 2005 6:31 PM EDT

Certainly not a sackcloth-and-ashes change, but I mildly dislike this one.

I'm not 100% certain that it was strictly to counteract overpowered ELBs, though--if ELBs were really the problem, it would have made more sense to nerf them directly.

I can't (yet) afford an ELB, so I make do with a modest compound, so I got adversely affected because a weapon I don't own was overpowered? Probably not. At least, I hope not.

maulaxe July 9 2005 12:07 AM EDT

perhaps the gods have seen fit to make a hidden decree - "thou shalt some of the time manage to make it into melee"

i see this as more of a melee boost than an archery nerf

/cries in a corner while updating fight list

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] July 9 2005 12:54 AM EDT

i still dont see "overpowered" about the ELBs and archery before this.....a 1 mil NW ELB doing 35-40k with archery trained is the same as a 1 mil NW Morg doing 35-40k with BL, flame if you wish....but can i see simliar Morg dmg #'s at 1 mil NW with BL trained (preferably someone using a ToA on the minion)? Cuz with archery my 1 mil NW ELB did 35-40k dmg.

QBsutekh137 July 9 2005 3:01 AM EDT

small, I see it rather simply:

Ranged goes first. If you're dead after, melee doesn't matter a whole hill of beans, does it?

These things do matter.

AdminJonathan July 9 2005 9:41 AM EDT

"thou shalt some of the time manage to make it into melee"

that's the idea; well put :)

QBRanger July 9 2005 11:05 AM EDT

/me waits eagerly for the FB/DM/FF rescaling to let those characters get into melee also.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] July 9 2005 11:07 AM EDT

Ranger: wasn't the whole point of FB in CB2 a ranged round killing machine, I keep thinking Jon is gonna fix it somehow, but then I start to wonder about
the now useless ToBF, and maybe, just maybe it has one lame little use.

[T]Vestax July 9 2005 11:37 AM EDT

When it comes to protection, ToE > ToBF. ToBF is only better if you get to use it backlash damage effect, which will never happen against a mage. Understandable FB is suppose to be a "ranged round killing machine", but to what extent. Are you will to sacrifice balance for what things are "suppose" to be.

QBJohn Birk [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 9 2005 11:37 AM EDT

I have to agree with Ranger on this one. The powerful combination of DM/FB/FF Mages should also have some reduction in order to give melee more emphasis. I can understand Jon's desire to make melee important. But don't penalize only those people who have sunk money back into the game by creating large NW bows, but then let people who do nothing other than fight and train HP DM FB have the ranged advantage. Im all for a more competitve, more emphasis on melee, but IMHO its only half of the way "done". Doing a reduction to the power of the FB/DM/FF mages would in my opinion complete the melee emphasis. You do not want all fights to end with my massive elbow, then by the same token don't let trained FB and autotrained FF do it either.

[T]Vestax July 9 2005 11:39 AM EDT

Sorry, off topic again while on a change log post. Yeah... so great change I think. Go melee.

AdminShade July 9 2005 12:28 PM EDT

Amount of rounds: 25

amount of ranged rounds: 3
amount of melee rounds when using ranged also: 22

amount of melee rounds when no ranged involved: 25.

who needs a huge ranged weapon anyway when possibly 88% of the battle is in melee ;)

[T]Vestax July 9 2005 12:29 PM EDT

I made a post in general about this so you can move the topic there.

Maelstrom July 9 2005 12:30 PM EDT

So says the person with the second largest exbow in the game! Going to sell it? ;)

WeaponX July 9 2005 12:31 PM EDT

you can't make it to melee with FF FB DM teams it is nearly impossible

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 10 2005 1:58 PM EDT

Shade, MM5 hit the nail on the head. Why even have 25 rounds when ranged attacks can finish a fight in 3-7?


[FireBreathing]Chicken July 11 2005 1:45 AM EDT

Straying from the intended topic..
To discourage ranged fireball-only teams (which can easily end battles in ranged), maybe CoBFs should be upped a bit. Not specifically against fireball, but perhaps they oughtta have a limited effect against other magics, grant some AC, or something else creative. The increase in versatility would make the CoBF more widely used.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] July 11 2005 1:46 AM EDT

ToBF i presume?

[FireBreathing]Chicken July 11 2005 2:05 AM EDT

whoops. yar. Sorry, I was reading from above and I'm a little tired.

Phaete July 11 2005 4:35 AM EDT

*Whaaa my archery was nerfed, i want the FB to be nerfed as well*

There are a lot of counters against FB that a lot of people simple don't use.
A big ELB almost has no way to counter it, thats why the archery nerf.

For all you FB fearing teams, just slap on some MgS, ToBF and learn AMF, and you will decimate FF FB DM teams.

Rock - Paper - Scissors (and the ELB is still the winner)

Carnt Spall July 11 2005 10:18 AM EDT

Another great counter to the FF/DM/FB strat is the character Shield4 owned by Budice. I remember when I was using the standard oversized FF on a low MPR team strat, his character could always beat me comfortably, even when my PR became significantly higher than his.

The DM removes any AS/GA etc. The FB kills the enchanters who without AS are generally low on HP, leaving the FF open to attack by the big TOA tank. A major weakness of the FF is that without AS cast on it, it has very low HP so my fights with Shield4 were over in one or two rounds with his Tank triple hitting my ~350k lvl FF (with about 70k HP) for around 30k per hit in rounds 1 and 2 of ranged.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 11 2005 10:40 AM EDT

Another great counter to the FF/DM/FB strat is the character Diggles... >;P

The combination of splitting the damage over 4 minions, one taking the brunt on AC/MgS, the other AC/TBF, with two AMF minions stops at least 400K FBs (So I've been told!) dead.


QBJohnnywas July 11 2005 11:11 AM EDT

FB doesn't need a new counter. It already has several. Any multi minion team tank or mage, large AMF or large GA can do the trick quite easily.

Not sure about the archery change but a good one with the BG's.

Carnt Spall July 11 2005 4:17 PM EDT

I have found that the TBF works best when another minion can split the FB damage, unfortunately Diggles isn't much good for anything but killing those big FF's though =/
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