I'm Stuck ! (in General)

Chocolate Thunder July 19 2005 4:11 PM EDT

How does one defeat a ToA tank with ELB/Seekers and DM? A mage is no good, the seekers pick them off. A non-ToA tank is no good, one would just whiff on every swing. Decay? See the mage bit. GA? say hello to DM.

Unless I'm missing something, looks like the only way to beat a ToA tank with seekers is a bigger ToA tank! *yawn*

My solution? BURN THE SEEKERS!


Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] July 19 2005 4:17 PM EDT

Build a wall in front of your mage?

Chocolate Thunder July 19 2005 4:18 PM EDT

Did you hear the part about seekers?

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] July 19 2005 4:19 PM EDT

LOL you're right. Seekers are tuff to counter. Maybe a really big GA.

Barron [CB2BANK Investors Club] July 19 2005 4:21 PM EDT

And with multiple minions you may be better off with a ToE

Chocolate Thunder July 19 2005 4:26 PM EDT

I'm not worried about me, i'm worried about in general. How does one beat a big ELB on a ToA with seekers... I can't think of a counter that doesn't involve a ToA.

QBRanger July 19 2005 4:27 PM EDT

I have 2 decay mages/enchanters and vs Gyaxx they cast at least 4 decays a battle. There are ways to "fool" the seekers.

Tezmac July 19 2005 4:29 PM EDT

Have a minion on your team that trains only EC?

Chocolate Thunder July 19 2005 4:29 PM EDT

Yes, i suppose you could fool the seekers by pumping a level 1001 CoC on your wall and having two 1000 decays left... but how do you kill the ToA tank at that point without another ToA tank?

Chocolate Thunder July 19 2005 4:30 PM EDT

EC isn't enough Tezmac... see Bartlett.

TrueDevil [AAA] July 19 2005 4:31 PM EDT

lol, I was wondering about this too earlier, I fought some tanks that can easily get beaten by the 'overpowered' FF/FB/DM team. Once they change to seekers, they became unbeatable. Yet, some people still want to nerf FB/FF ? hilarious.

Tezmac July 19 2005 4:35 PM EDT

Doesnt have a dedicated EC. Whilest a tank is training 3 attributes and a skill, an EC only enchanter should be able to create a decent drop in damage dealing ability.

QBJohn Birk [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 19 2005 4:37 PM EDT

Well I would imagine I am the one this post is mostly directed towards, and well I am not going to tell you how to defeat me. I will say a few things on the subject.

First off I have almost 95mil NW....how much is yours? Spend the same amount of CB2 $ on your character as I have on mine then we will talk.

Secondly, ask any non-camper how hard AND costly it is to stay in constant seeker supply. Not easy! I pay a lot for the seekers I buy from other users compared to most simply because in relative terms, money is no object.

Thirdly, I have 4 minions and the 13th most MPR in the game. Yeah I know its all supposed to be about my massive NW, but its not, I have a lot of MPR, and I know how to use it effectively.

You are one of the reasons Ranger switched from DM to AMF because he did not want to have to mess with constant seeker supply.

So to recap, I have more minions, about 75mil more NW and about 20K more MPR....again where is the mystery? If you are not talking about me, name one other character that your opening statement applies to that can beat you :)

Those are my thoughts :)

QBRanger July 19 2005 4:47 PM EDT

First: seekers are RARE, not everyone has an unlimited supply except Gyaxx. They are expensive to buy in auctions averaging about 10 cb2 per arrow. If you buy BA you can expect 1000 battles a day which is between 6-9k seekers a day if you use them exclusively.

Second: with the recent archery nerf, I do less then 100k a shot with my elb vs a mage with decent AC. Get a set of MCM and a COI and upgrade it a bit. Then get a nice +90 pair of DB on your mage and you will get hit twice a round. The cost you say. Bah, look at the cost I need in an elb, mh, armor, etc.. A mage has very little expense. Between the FF and your 500k hp mage you may make it out of missile with 1 of them alive. Then do the COC tank and decay enchanter thing with the surviving mage finishing up.

It may not be easy but perhaps you need to spend some money to neutralize the seekers.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] July 19 2005 4:48 PM EDT

Again: "I'm not worried about me, i'm worried about in general. How does one beat a big ELB on a ToA with seekers... I can't think of a counter that doesn't involve a ToA."

Answer the question and scenario posed.

[EG] Almuric July 19 2005 4:52 PM EDT

Mikel and Toons have the (an?) answer.

Any more questions?

Chocolate Thunder July 19 2005 4:54 PM EDT

Almuric... Mikel and toons both get destroyed by seekers, i can almost guarantee that.

QBJohn Birk [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 19 2005 5:05 PM EDT

But without those seekers Mikel beats me, with all my NW and all my MPR comparitively I lose without seekers, so I think the trouble is not the seekers.....

I will add, that in the end, tank to tank its all about NW. My tank has a ton of it, so does the other character in question, yours and Bast's tanks does not. If you had more MPR, and even half the NW of the two characters in question, then perhaps there is an issue, but I mean you have about 80% less NW and seekers are needed to beat you in one case. I really do not think the issue is seekers, its NW. How do you beat a character with 5X your NW, I don't think you do UNLESS you are FF/FB/DM, there is where the imbalance lies IMHO.

And Devillord, you think there is no problem that a person with more MPR and a ton more NW NEEDS seekers to win? Requires a constantly dwindling supply of rare items just to play ball with a person who spends 1/5 the NW and no out of pocket expense (this is not CT but Mikel and their ilk) to fight I think THAT is hilarious. :)

Chocolate Thunder July 19 2005 5:16 PM EDT

Everything needs a counter in this game, or at least I think so. Its the rock/paper/scissors component to the game. Come up with a hypothetical strategy not involving a ToA where I could beat a ToA/ELB/Seekers/DM. Regardless of NW.

The only two things i could come up with were:
1) have 3 EC minions and a tank and a ToE... and to be honest, i don't know if that would work. (and you'd lose to everyone else!)

2) 1-Front Wall with 1001 CoC. 2- TONS of GA with base decay 3- EC with base decay 4- tank with ToE (this might work, i may actually try a version of this)

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] July 19 2005 5:20 PM EDT

Let's grant that your NW is propping up your low, relatively speaking, MPR, Sefton. See Dawg. Is his NW overcoming his gigantic MPR deficit? It wasn't 'til the ToA and seekers -- and he's clearly spent _a lot_.

As for the scarcity of seekers, if you've money to burn (and your wife doesn't find or mind the expenditures), they are clearly not _all_ that hard to come by. I used them constantly against Avoid when his tattoo and MPR were too much for me.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 [SHIELD] July 19 2005 5:21 PM EDT

Chocolate-- a base decay can "hide" from Seekers if the minion has a Mage Shield, they decay still works and the minion is not targeted by seekers (So i have heard, at least)

Chocolate Thunder July 19 2005 5:22 PM EDT

Really? you can hide a decay from seekers with a Mage Shield? Is that a Bug or is that meant to be?

Will [Retired] July 19 2005 5:22 PM EDT

The perfect counter for this would be a mixed mage/ToA Tank team (axbow), the seekers goto the mage in ranged, then the tank can't hit anyone! :)

QBRanger July 19 2005 5:27 PM EDT

CT, have you even read my post? There will likely not be a way to defeat a seeker using TOA character without using a lot of NW. However that does not change the rock/paper/scissors component of the game.

If your initial question is: Can a non-TOA character beat a TOA seeker using character without using NW? then you answer is no.

[T]Vestax July 19 2005 5:31 PM EDT

You see, a team with either walls, enchanters, or tanks has no problems with seekers in comparable PR, because with no mage they really should be using slayers instead.

Your search to Mage > Seekers solution is rather contradictory to the point of seekers in the first place. An easy solution to this problem should NOT be available since it would defeat the purpose of such a tool.

QBJohn Birk [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 19 2005 5:32 PM EDT

OK regardless of NW....4 minions, 3 walls (one with a ToE) the other two with AC over 250 all training HP only, and a tank bolstered by +20 EG, +20 EC +20 HoE +20 TGs +40 BoM. With a training slant towards more DX and less ST and HP and Bloodlust. Yah OK thats a little xtreme

Or you could do what Cau did, and make a x40 +100 axbow, with a bloodlusted no tat wearing tank and a big morg, with 3 E's or W's and one of them wearing a big FF.

Or you can do what all the FB/FF/DM guys do and just keep pumping FF and FB until you can kill any no AC having no MgS weilding ToA tank in two rounds :)

Or you could do a variation of the Cau strat with MMMT with each one having progressively less DD so the seekers target minion 1, then 2, then, 3 then melee with the bloodlusted tank who took the ToA tank from 300K DX to 70K DX and beat him senseless with the bloodlusted morg while dodging his blows with large DB's

I mean seriously, the trouble is not seekers. Consider this, at 100mil nw and a 10 USD to 1mil cb2 $ ratio, there is over $1,000 invested in these over powered seeker strat ToA tanks. (OK only $950 in my case) But again, I do not see how seekers come into play as the over powering agent.

Chet will back you up saying ELB ToA tanks are over powered, but the truth is, I have to maintain a massive NW and 4 minions and seekers just to beat a lower MPR much much much lower NW FF/FB/DM strat. Not sure why the ToA ELB is considered over powered in that light.

Chocolate Thunder July 19 2005 6:02 PM EDT

So mages are right out. That's decided

To the tanks now!... without a ToA, one's dex gap will be enormous... One needs + to make up for that, but being already +70 or so in the hole with all your DBs. Basically one would need a Axbow with +150 or so to hit you consistantly and bring down your Dex enough to hit y'all with a Big Morg.

Cost to just get +150 on an Axbow ~40 million. Not really reasonable.

Really, if not with mages, how does anyone take down a ToA team without becoming another ToA team?

[EG] Almuric July 19 2005 6:02 PM EDT

CT, to put things in less antagonistic fashion, look around your PR. Are there any ToA using tanks near you in PR that you can't beat? If that's so, then perhaps you might have a point.

I see Alienfb, a ToA tank, who, according to his fight list, you beat easily. Can he beat you with seekers? If so, perhaps that's an injustice, perhaps not.

Let me tell you a story.

On CB1, there was this guy who had a single tank. Fought all the time. When Archery was introduced, he got himself a Compound Bow and went to town. Eventually, he managed to get himself to a point where he was 20th or so in PR, but could beat people in the top 10 with big seekers.

Then there was this other guy who ran a 4-minion mage team. He fought more often than the single tank guy. As he was coming up, the tank guy used to be able to beat him with regular arrows. Then he started having to use seekers. This went on for a long time, many months. Eventually, due to having fought much more than the tank guy, the mage guy would win even though the tank was using powerful seekers. (That was me and Avoid, in case you hadn't figured that out.)

Moral of the story? PR wins in the end.

You shouldn't be basing your success on whether you can beat me or Ranger or Sefton. You should be comparing yourself to people at the same PR as yourself. You seem to be doing OK in that regard. Plus, your score is 100K above your PR. How many people up here can say that? Even Bast, who has a superb strat, can't match that.

Mikel July 19 2005 6:18 PM EDT

This game was once explained to me as a game of Chess.

With that said, there is no one "invincible strat", so you should adapt to a strat that you can run that allows max targets and minimal NW.

You don't use AMF, so my FF gets a few free rounds of max damage in on your 4 minion team, to weaken you before you kill him with your seekers.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] July 19 2005 6:19 PM EDT

How many of you made your answer about your professors' short and fat status, when asked to discuss gravity? Would it help to rephrase the question? Or have someone with a NW of 1k and an MPR of 12 ask the question?

QBRanger July 19 2005 6:24 PM EDT

Hello, did I not give an answer in my first post in this thread?

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] July 19 2005 6:26 PM EDT

Unless your personalized example is based on you having something other than a ToA yourself, no.

QBsutekh137 July 19 2005 6:28 PM EDT

CT, I agree with you pretty much in every way.

Some questions and comments for the rest of the gang:

Almuric, PR wins out in the end? Well, yeah. Who has every said otherwise?

Tezmac, EC can never pace against a ToA, because the ToA keep growing at the same rate even if the tank is part of a four-minion team. At least that is my humble opinion.

Ranger, you ask, "Can a non-TOA character beat a TOA seeker using character without using NW?" and answer that "no". I agree with the answer. So to turn that around, what are you saying to do? Use a non-TOA character with high NW? What, pray tell, would you be spending that NW on? The ToA is almost the only way to leverage net worth as far as I can see, other than these item exceptions:

- Displacement boots (will pace with high-end weapon pth). A very good place to spend net worth defensively, probably one of the best anti-tank methods.
- Mage Shield (will NOT pace...gets prohibitively expensive close to +50). Also absolutely useless against an opposing tank.
- Beleg's. Won't do much good without a ToA.
- Other strat-enhancing items...all pretty worthless when compared to a ToA minion using similar items.
- A wall. I would join CT with his yawning in that case, because it would fall under the category of "beating the other guy by doing what the other guy is doing." But still, this would go second to the DBs as far as a defensive way of using net worth.

There are essentially no ways to augment offense using net worth without using a ToA. If so, I would love to hear about them. This is the crux of CT's original post as I see it.

I have been scratching my head for some time now wondering why people are worried about "mage blender". The ToA is going to continue to dominate the game because net worth is eventually the tide-turner (MPRs being equal). And a ToA is the only way to leverage net worth effectively. Or maybe I am wrong about that. Maybe we will see mighty TOA vs. DB battles in the future, as DBs are just about the only realistic way of using net worth to combat a ToA. I take that back...exbows and axbows help too, but again, it is hard to hit with them.

I also think that if mages really start coming on strong, the big dogs will switch to using more AMF, or do a AMF/DM hybrid like Almuric.

Chocolate Thunder July 19 2005 6:33 PM EDT

To make it fair to everyone neglecting to actually answer the question, lets use Imp and myself as an example. I beat Imp, with seekers he beats me, we have the Sameish PR. If he changed to DM from AMF, i can almost guarantee those same results.

To make the conversation weighted again. The same situation holds true with he and Bartlett and who has more PR there?

But none of this answers my original question...

So lets rephase the question again:
The ToA tank is just about unhittable by any non-ToA tank (300K Dex on a 500K ToA), and if you put seekers onto a ToA tank it takes out all the mages early.... so how do you beat a ToA tank with seekers? There isn't a reasonable counter given thus far. I'm not really trying to make this an arguement, i just want to know if there's any reasonable counter!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 19 2005 6:36 PM EDT

Going a little more depth into Chets comment about 'fooling' seekers.

A MgS on a Decay caster lowers it's level to zero. But we know a base decay still casts. It's just *very* easy to counter with AMF.

What I didn't expect, was having your level at zero fools seekers into thinking you don't have a DD spell, so they don't seek you.

To stop a ELB, either have 3 bodies you want to lose in ranged and a Tank to take out thier tank. Or utilise a Mage to suck the seekers (or DD familiar) with another mage / MgS wearing Decay caster to take out the tank.

Not easy though!!

[T]Vestax July 19 2005 6:39 PM EDT

It seems to me the question has already been rephrased seeing as Chocolate Thunder has accepted the role Seekers play as an anti-mage tool. Yet, now h questions if an assortment of tanks, enchanters, and walls could match against a ToA tank using seekers (not slayers, which are better but brings mages back into the picture).

The question has now become is ToA overpowered? The answer of course is no, but it does seem pretty hard to tackle without a mage. I would simply like to say that maybe a team with a UC tank, having superb dodging ability, might be an suitable counter to ToA.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 19 2005 6:40 PM EDT

LOL! Slayer beat me to it! ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 19 2005 6:43 PM EDT

Oh, or buy a pair of DB s at least +165 but mainly more due to ToA pth, higher than the ELBs plus.

Then you would be unhittable.


Chargerz-Back July 19 2005 6:44 PM EDT

the point of this game is to have no single strat that beats everything possible. the thing that stops the FB/FF mages are seekers.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 19 2005 6:46 PM EDT

Vestax, that would depend on how UC anf Gi evasion satcks, and what is doubled in ranged.

Otherwise, it's better to use a ToA + UC.

And that's just another ToA tank versus a ToA tank...

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] July 19 2005 6:46 PM EDT

So if my tank and Al's are both effectively unhittable (as his is now and mine would be with a $25 million pair of DBs), do we just dance around like the last drunks out of a wedding party for those last 20ish rounds?

To beat a ToA, without one myself, is to go for the stalemate?

Not that the battlelog wouldn't be hilarious, but on a per-BA basis that entertainment is bound to wear thin.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 19 2005 6:56 PM EDT

A monster pair of DB s one a mage (the +165 comes from completely negatin all the dex cth) will lead the mage to dodging every tank based attack while peppering the tank with un dodgable spells.

If it's tank versus tank the +165 is lowered depending on the tanks dex ratios to each other, but it's possible, with two tanks both with large enough DB s (which wouldn't have to be as large as the ones on a mage or 'chanter) to each dodge the others attacks.

Until a stalemate.


Tezmac July 19 2005 7:01 PM EDT

Maybe I missed this suggestion in the disarray that this post seems to have become. Whats wrong with a EEET team that are all strictly EC enchanters and a tank with a huge axbow? His large ELB and seekers would kill an enchanter in each round, but with 75% of your exp being dumped into EC and your huge axbow hitting at least twice in ranged should bring his DX down to a managable level and your tank hasnt even been hit by the time melee starts. I dunno, maybe I'm just talking out my rear end...

QBRanger July 19 2005 7:05 PM EDT

This was the initial question: "How does one defeat a ToA tank with ELB/Seekers and DM?"

Nowhere in that question did the idea of not using NW come up. Somewhere later it did. But that was not the initial question as Bast pointed out earlier.

Now back to my first post and answer. It went as follows for those who somehow missed it:

"Second: with the recent archery nerf, I do less then 100k a shot with my elb vs a mage with decent AC. Get a set of MCM and a COI and upgrade it a bit. Then get a nice +90 pair of DB on your mage and you will get hit twice a round. The cost you say. Bah, look at the cost I need in an elb, mh, armor, etc.. A mage has very little expense. Between the FF and your 500k hp mage you may make it out of missile with 1 of them alive. Then do the COC tank and decay enchanter thing with the surviving mage finishing up."

In that post I mentioned using NW to get and upgrade DB's and MCM and a COI. But apparently that is not an adequate answer as per some of you.

Chet then says "So to turn that around, what are you saying to do? Use a non-TOA character with high NW? What, pray tell, would you be spending that NW on? The ToA is almost the only way to leverage net worth as far as I can see, other than these item exceptions".

But that was not the initial question CT had. My response was based on his initial question. How to defeat a TOA tank (elb/dm) with seekers without using a TOA.

So here is what I say is one answer to CT's INITIAL question:

Minion 1: Wall (nowhere did he say a Wall was not useable)
Minion 2: Enchanter with base decay and wearing the FF
Minion 3: FB mage with COI +12, MCM +45, DB +90, etc...
Minion 4: COC mage with his COC just below that of minion 3.

The thought is that there are only 3 archery rounds. All minions 3 needs to do is live through 1 archery round to let minion 4 make it to melee. Then the wall blocks while minion 4 attacks with his COC.
Think of the FF as a 1 shot bazooka and minion 3 as a 3 shot pistol.

Yes, there will be NW involved but it will be far less then that of Gyaxx or Magnus etc...

The FF will likely die in missile round 1, minion 3 will die in missile round 3.

Thats one possible solution to the question as it was first asked.

QBJohnnywas July 19 2005 7:11 PM EDT

There's also the problem of DM. Your strat is reliant on AS. Your's maybe the 2nd largest in the game but your minions have next to no real HP, so once that DM's worked it's magic you're not left with much to soak up damage. Start chucking some XP into your HP and it might start to make a difference.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 19 2005 7:15 PM EDT

<Devils Advocate>
You don't need HP to stop and ELB.

3 x 20 HP 'chanters/walls/sacrificial lambs will do the job just as well
</Devils Advocate>


QBJohnnywas July 19 2005 7:18 PM EDT

3 of the little guys will, without hp but if you haven't got them then what do you do? OK so adding real HP doesn't apply to the familiar but you can still soak up damage = the whole wall minion is about that right? Course seekers are a real problem.... =(

[T]Vestax July 19 2005 7:21 PM EDT

Alright, alright let's just conclude that ToA with Seeker Arrows is unbeatable and 'overpowered' and will dominate the game from her onto eternity if we don't do something about it. So here is a list of solutions:

1) We remove Seeker Arrows from the game and see if hxbows start to sell.
2) Jon makes it so that anyone who uses seeker arrows and ToA automatically loses to Chocolate Thunder regardless of the original outcome.
3) We put ranged combat as the last three rounds instead of the first three rounds of combat.
4) CB3

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 19 2005 7:22 PM EDT

"Or you can do what all the FB/FF/DM guys do and just keep pumping FF and FB until you can kill any no AC having no MgS wielding ToA tank in two rounds :)"

Ah... QFT! ;)

Hey... Chet smiled! does that mean he loses the contest?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 19 2005 7:23 PM EDT

Actually, I'd combine ranged and melee into the same rounds...

But that would take a lot of work and changes!


QBsutekh137 July 19 2005 7:30 PM EDT

GL, not if the opponent has a wall equipped woth any sort of ranged weapons. Hell, even a sling will do to knock out 20 HP meat-shields.

So, to give them more than 20 HP you need either AS (countered by DM) or to invest in actual HP enough to keep all three alive through ranged.

Meanwhile, you have diluted the hell out of your fourth minion. Doesn't matter so much if that fourth minion has a ToA, because that continues to grow. But if that fourth minion is a ToE Mage, then "ouch". He is not going to keep pace.

Ranger, sorry I missed your comments on what to spend money on. Question: Does DB + count as AC? I know I should know the answer to that, but I don't. If it does, then Holy Schnikeys! If it doesn't, then I am not seeing this huge AC you are talking about. You aren't going to be able to make that mage all that protected without a ToE (and that means no body armor or CoI).

I still contend that the only reasonable ways to spend net worth defensively is with a Wall minion, and the only way to spend NW offensively is with a ToA.

For the sake of thread hijack simplicity, I will stick with the latter part of that statement: Can anyone tell me examples of ways to spend net worth on useful offense other than with a ToA? The main point being that you cannot hit a ToA tank because of the dexterity gap. Exbows and Axbows are an option (cranking the pth). Any others?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 19 2005 7:31 PM EDT

Heh, lots of posts from me tonight...

But I've realised the focal problem of CT s question.

There are two types of damage dealers in CB, Tanks and Mages.

If Tanks can't hit you, tanks can't do damage.

High dex, and Evasion see's to that. What minion can have the highest dex and Evasion?

A ToA Tank.

So, ToA tanks are tank killers.

But with Archery, an Elb and Seeker arrows (which are all possible on a ToA tank), this tank becomes a Mage killer as well.

It hits the same time as FB, so unless your FB can kill it in 1 round, your toast.

It gains a round over MM and three (!) over CoC, so versus a ToA Seeker Tank, these are worse than FB.

The ToA Tank has no magical damage mitigation (I'm totally ignoring AMF here..), but a dead Mage deals no damage.

You don't even need DM.

My question;

What does a Single, ToA wearing, ELB using, Archery trained, DB evading, Massive Dex, Seeker firing Tank have to fear?



AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 19 2005 7:32 PM EDT

DB plus doesn't count as AC.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] July 19 2005 7:49 PM EDT

Bingo, GL! You've gotten the question. (too bad on the smiling thing, though)

[T]Vestax July 19 2005 8:06 PM EDT

GL stole my answer from way up there. =P

QBsutekh137 July 19 2005 8:49 PM EDT

Wait, do we have GL veering from his FB/FF/DM rules platform?

Then surely the ToA must be over-powered.

[EG] Almuric July 19 2005 10:25 PM EDT

Bast chastised me in CM that I didn't answer the question. Let me repeat the question, in my own words, to make sure I understand it: How can one beat a ToA tank, with (or without) seekers.

Didn't anyone understand my first reply?

Let me be a little clearer: Tanks and Mages aren't the only two kinds of damage dealers.

And, for those really obtuse people, I draw your attention to Toons. What does he have that other characters don't? A really honking big GA. And a really big AS. My DM doesn't dispell all of his GA and AS, and as such, I take lots of damage when attacking him. So much, in fact, that I have taken him off my Favorites list.

Now, admittedly, he could be beaten if I concentrated all my XP on HP for a while (perhaps), or unlearned my AMF and put it on DM, but to do that, I'd have to neglect working to defeat other characters. Of course, his strat doesn't work against everyone, but it's very effective against the 3rd biggest ToA tank in the game.

I'm sure someone will explain to me how I still failed to answer the question, but it will have to wait until morning. A couple of chapters of Harry Potter's latest travails, followed by blissful sleep, await.

QBsutekh137 July 19 2005 11:15 PM EDT

Almuric, you exemplify the tone of the ToA character.

While the rest of us are trying to find niches and what works (or in Bast's case just fighting her posterior off), the ToA folks have the luxury of saying, "What do I need to do so that I can beat EVERYONE."

I cannot beat everyone. There is no chance, and never could be. The highest single mage with highest ToE cannot beat everyone else (hell, cannot even consistently beat little old me). Even a very huge mage team with high net worth cannot hope to be top dog. (oops, I see Magnus switched to a ToA now, but he used to be mainly magic).

Only the ToA user can say, "What the hell, I'll just dominate most everyone."

And here's how: the ToA user can concentrate net worth into a finely honed killer. Look at your own character. You can even afford a certain amount of self-defeating DM/AMF and still perform well! Can you think of any other possible configuration that would afford such leniency?

Let me put it this way: I doubt an all mage team has ever said, "Hm, with a small push of USD I can reach the top!" It cannot happen, certainly not on the offense front. There is no means for money to matter.

Tanks rule. Net worth rules. NW/PR linkage has not a thing to do with it, definitely not in the Top Ten. God Bless Bast for her work schedule and never-say-die attitude...she could come out on top once there is some more attrition in the upper echelon. But that's always. We ALL know longevity rules here. We are talking about similar MPRs, and I have yet to see a valid case for a mage-centered team at the high end. This has always been canon. The only way Avoid did it on CB1 was to generate such a huge PR gap that he could put every other tank in a wheel chair. Even then, he reverted to a tank and net worth as his killing blow. Coincidence? I think not.

Yes, toons is an extremely interesting character. I will agree with you on that. But save for that strategy, if all the top ToA users decided to all shift to AMF, the mages would be well and truly shafted. And as time goes by, ToEs will become more and more useless, ToAs more and more leveraged (via net worth), and DD familiars (mainly FF) somewhere in between. Right now the ToE is downright useless at high levels because of the threshold on it. Black Card Situation knows this, and as a single mage is going for the quick kills with a deadly FB/FF double-barrel (scored his first win against me this evening...very well done, Rubberduck).

I am rambling now. (Now? Have been for several paragraphs, to be sure). But I still agree with CT in that the only reliable way to beat a ToA is with another ToA, and that, as always for me, is a sign of stagnation and imbalance. If all the top ToA users had Bast's BA usage and clan stats (and kept at it), they could never be touched. One man's opinion.

[T]Vestax July 19 2005 11:29 PM EDT

Don't forget that dreaded ToBF Damage, everyone seems to neglect that for some reason. :)

Carnt Spall July 19 2005 11:32 PM EDT

I lose to tanks that are half my PR, so yep TBF damage is a killer :)

Mikel July 20 2005 1:10 AM EDT

I'd love to see everyone shift to AMF, instead of DM.

QBJohn Birk [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 20 2005 1:21 AM EDT

Let me mention this, all over the side of "it cant be done" you see things like, well sure big DB's or sure moser's axbow, but what else. And then you turn around and say it cant be done. It can. Granted you HAVE to use NW to do it. I will say that. You have no choice. If you want to beat a team that is specifically designed to leverage NW, you need NW to do it. 40mil for an axbow, no problem. Give me a month or two. +165 DB's, again, possible. Expensive sure, but my NW is expensive as well. If you are a mage and you put on +200 DB's with no tat, just little ole you and nothing else. Not even a corn, your NW might equal mine. You train Fireball, HP and DX. I will never hit you, you will always hit me. Add DM to make sure I don't have GA and how do I do damage to you? You say I'm now diluted....I say I still never hit you. So I never hurt you. Maybe your FB is so small we stalemate in round 25 I can't say. So you say you will be owned by other mages. You did not ask for an unbeatable strat, you asked how do you beat a ToA tank. That's how you do it, what ever way you need to, by nerfing his DX or by dodging every blow thats how you do it.

I do not see how you can possibly plan to beat someone without investing the same NW as them. Sure you can have more or less and your strat might swing it one way or other on its own, but in the end, you want to beat NW you need NW.

So if that is the intention to nerf NW, then thats another post. But seekers or not, if a ToA tank can't hit, they can't hurt. There is no magic formula for using 1/2 or less of your opponents NW to beat them. Stop looking for it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 20 2005 3:14 AM EDT

"Wait, do we have GL veering from his FB/FF/DM rules platform?"

Nah Chet... I've always thought both FB+DM and ELB+Archery were overpowered. It's also no surprse that they are the only type of attacks that hit first.

If your FB is high enough, you can always draw with the ToA tank. You just need to be able of 1 round wins.

But, that's the only thing that has a chance of drawing. Nothing else has even a hope of winning.

Now, as Sefton says, massive DB s on a mage makes nearly as good 'all killer' as a ToA tank. But only nearly.

Just because of the ToA pth and the item / skill evasion now stacks.

Give the FB Mage and the ToA tank equal NW. The Mage will have higher Evasion than the ELB plus (due to the tank having to spend cash on the X as well as the +). But, this higher Evasion not only needs to beat the weapon +, but the scalling ToA pth, with enough left over to reduce the massive dex gap between the two.

Not going to happen. And with DB s that big, training Evasion as a skill is not worth it.

The only thing a ToA ELB Archery Seeker Tank fears? Availability of Seekers...

ToBF would be an option, if it was improved. It'll slow the FB mage, but if the Melee splash turns out to be any good, ToA Archers will just suck up the dex penalty and not use melee weapons.

GA is an option, but both a FB mage and ToA tank have the option of training DM... And if you're using a multi minion team to optimise GA damage (otherwise, on a single minion, GA will never do enough to kill your opponents) you'll need AS to make it work. Two birds stopped with one stone by DM...

[T]Vestax July 20 2005 3:27 AM EDT

Well, one could forego the NW benefits of armor, aside form maybe a Corn, and go all MPR to get above those big DM's... Hmmm... sounds like something I would do if I had the Corns to do it. I mean your objective is to get hit.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 20 2005 3:36 AM EDT

Hmmm... think ing about it a little more, a ToA tank can spend NW to insure they are immune to physical attacks. Versus Magical attacks, they have to kill first, so damage must be concentrated on.

A mage on the other hand cannot spend NW to insure they are immune to physical attacks (Well they can, but just like taking a MgS to +50, it's not gonna happen...). They have to kill everything first, so every bit of NW should be focused into this, and not spent on defense.

It's probably best for a FB mage to focus all their cash into a CoI.

Heh. So we have two type of minions (Single FB Mage and Single ToA tank) that can beat every other type of team, and draw to each other...

QBJohn Birk [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 20 2005 8:48 AM EDT

Just a little add on to this post so that people can see fact over fiction.

This is the top 10 scores as of right now

The Apocalypse Book Score / PR / MPR: 1,101,682 / 907,921 / 629,724 ToA Net Worth: $62,986,877
Gyaxx Score / PR / MPR: 1,076,566 / 1,043,044 / 438,756 ToA Net Worth: $94,282,643
almuric Score / PR / MPR: 922,145 / 809,391 / 514,239 ToA Net Worth: $63,883,733
Magnus Score / PR / MPR: 804,369 / 1,051,310 / 371,158 ToA Net Worth: $106,664,415
Bartlett Score / PR / MPR: 782,307 / 858,275 / 620,849 ToJ Net Worth: $24,746,887
Black Card Situation Score / PR / MPR: 766,920 / 736,880 / 541,695 FF Net Worth: $12,639,229
Team 7 Score / PR / MPR: 731,035 / 689,562 / 503,747 FF Net Worth: $13,505,126
Cougars Score / PR / MPR: 714,326 / 669,978 / 486,750 ToE Net Worth: $20,777,974
Black Caesar Score / PR / MPR: 708,062 / 631,019 / 410,040 FF Net Worth: $22,574,374
toons Score / PR / MPR: 697,504 / 599,666 / 423,582 IF Net Worth: $14,429,517

As you can see of the top 10 characters, only 4 use a ToA, one uses a ToJ, one uses a ToE, 3 use FF and 1 uses IF.

In a lot of post looking to have the ToA elbow combo nerfed because it "dominates" and makes things "yawn" boring, it is being put forth that they are over abundant and that ho hum, what fun is that to only use one strat to win. The data, the facts do not support this. There are only 1 less FF tat in the top 10 than ToAs.

There is a Grand Canyon sized gulf between the NW of the top 4 and the NW of the remaining 6 of the top 10. Heck the sum of the NW of the non ToA using members of the top 10 barely exceeds the NW of the #4 ToA user.

Also notice of the top 4 ToA users there is a direct correlation between the amount of NW needed and the amount of MPR on the character. The more MPR you have the less NW you need to make it to the top spots. Again, this is data and fact, and it does not surprise me at all.

So where is the mystery here? Why is this such a mystical thing? Its simple, you need both MPR and NW to be in the top 10 IF you use a ToA and if you do not have a lot of NW, then do not use a ToA. How is this over powered? I just don't get it.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 20 2005 9:10 AM EDT

"So where is the mystery here? Why is this such a mystical thing? Its simple, you need both MPR and NW to be in the top 10 IF you use a ToA and if you do not have a lot of NW, then do not use a ToA. How is this over powered? I just don't get it."

That's so true, and I've seen no-one comment against it. A ToA is a physical boosters. Physicall attacks need both MPR and High NW. Mages never needed NW to dominate, and I still claim concentrated FB mages still don't.

"There are only 1 less FF tat in the top 10 than ToAs."

Top 10. 4 ToA s, 3 FF s. Yet people don't seem to accept that the most power attacks in the game are ToA boosted ELB s and FB...

Thanks Sef, your digging and facts I hope will get poeple to realise what the two most powerful (and *overpowered* to everything else...) attacks are in the game.

QBJohn Birk [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 20 2005 9:22 AM EDT

and thank you GL, because you can help me come full circle, and why my post is relavent to this thread. IF the most NW in the game, the 4th most powerful character in all of CB2 REQUIRES seeker arrows to beat someone with 20% of the same NW, how oh how is the ToA over powered as compared to the FF. And how oh how is the seeker arrow the problem?

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] July 20 2005 9:29 AM EDT

[Caveat: nevermind that the Top 10 doesn't include the Impish examples, NW is having the same effect on the ToA (or vice versa) at lower levels .]

Sefton, it is not about you. For me, not even about the Top 10. It is a conceptual/theoretical question. Well clarified by GL, see above, and interestingly answered by Al (nice job on the later effort!), see Toons.

But if we look at your numbers, assuming anyone willing can have massive NW, it is curious that, of the Top 10, all the ToAs are at the top. Post hoc ergo propter hoc -- when those who choose to (or when there is some magical 'catch up') have enough NW, their option is the ToA. Spread enough money around and the Top 20 will be buck-boosted ToAs with competing ELBs and/or DBs? Is that the conclusion, based on the numbers? Seriously, "no mystery", that's the natural end?

(The artifice in looking at the whole Top 10 seems to be in the way that the ToA+NW makes up for MPR, see Gyaxx and Dawg. I'm just not sure that's actually a "game problem". This is not an entirely formed notion yet.)

What I find most interesting so far in the ToA/ELB/Seekers/$-instead-of-MPR strat, is that Magnus' pitiful MPR can be a match for Bartlett ... but it looks like he's still falling to BCS (more MPR than Magnus, but less than Bartlett). That probably won't last much longer, but it's something. (Go, Duckie!)

Or, to post the alternative, if NW is the key, and the ToA means nothing, let us see Gyaxx and Al without them. Obviously, Dawg's NW wasn't returning "great" results 'til he switched to ToA. And Ranger has the highest MPR and biggest tattoo, no matter what type it is. Add in his NW and he should be invincible. That makes Gyaxx and Al the perfect test cases, given their more middling status and varied MPRs.

(or do the three of you have one _because_ Ranger has one? In which case my half-formed idea is taking better shape. Then the question really goes back to the beginning: if you must have a ToA to beat one, is the ToA not _it_?)

*this post is now going on purely to see if we can outpace the BonesLoans thread for # of responses.

QBJohn Birk [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 20 2005 9:36 AM EDT

Once again Bast, I will say it as simply as possible. Stick the difference in NW between you and I into a pair of DB's or an axbow, then tell me if its NW or ToA that rules.

And no it is not curious that the top four all have ToA as they all have massive NW. If you have a ToA and do not have massive NW you will not be in the top 10. Using your own Latin, Post hoc ergo propter hoc its not the ToA its the NW.

However, if you have a miniscule NW and still want to be in the top 10 choose ANY other tat and you might be able to do it :) At least by proof of example, if you choose a ToJ, ToE, FF or IF you might be able to do it.

QBsutekh137 July 20 2005 9:37 AM EDT

Sefton, I completely agree with you.

But, there would be more ToA people up there if there were less attrition, shuffling, and in-fighting. What happened to Cau? You guys have hired and fired minions, re-equipped, and changed tactics a million times fighting EACH OTHER. Spid fired a fairly large minion. It is a level of cannibalization that I have not seen in the mages so much...they are too busy just trying to catch up to y'all. Again, the ToA affords that luxury because you can make up for a lot of things with cash (via camping, USD, CB1, etc...every single ToA person has leveraged the hell out of one or more of those things).

I am not saying others haven't leveraged as well. They have and they do. I am just saying it is more effective for the ToA folks. Yes, other tattoo type teams (say that five times fast) can leverage net worth. I have been clued in on this post about things other than the DBs that can be invested in. Your point about net worth needing to be equal is also a good one.

I will still say this, though. Given two teams with an MPR of 500K and another NW-PR of 500K (for a total of 1 million PR), I would bet everything I have that a ToA team would always school a mage team. I do not believe DBs can ever be taken high enough to avoid every single hit. Negating that single hit is never a sure thing. Ask folks on CB1 who have a huge dexterity gap over opponents and DBs larger than opposing plus-to-hit. Guess what? They still get hit. Yes, it may only be a third or fourth of the time, but I really think folks should stop extending this myth of the unhittable character. I will only believe it when I see it.

So, a mage can invest a lot of worth into DBs and become nearly unhittable, and invest cash in a CoI to have very powerful DD. I do see how a mage can level the playing field. But I believe in the long run that net worth usage will benefit tanks more than mages. That has been my experience on both CBs. DBs are different here on CB2, so I will wait to be proven wrong.

I appreciate everyone's comments on this thread. I have learned a ton!

Chocolate Thunder July 20 2005 9:38 AM EDT

Thanks for avoiding the question again. The question is: if not with mages or non-ToA tanks, how does one defeat a ToA tank?

Complaining that I dont' have enough NW to beat anyone doesn't answer anything. It avoids the question. Someone would need twice your networth to hit you with a tank that wasn't ToA.. with seekers Mages are useless. I'm not making any claims of overpoweredness, I just want to know how to beat a ToA tank without joining them. That is the question.

How does anyone even give damage to a ToA tank in round 4? Is there any way?

Why bother getting a 60 million NW Axbow/Exbow/ELB on a Non-ToA tank, when i can do twice as well with a 20 million NW ELB on a ToA tank?

Every strategy has a counter (in theory).... what is the ToA tank's counter? That is the question.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] July 20 2005 9:40 AM EDT

You _so_ know he wanted to *smile* at the end!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 20 2005 9:46 AM EDT

"how oh how is the ToA over powered as compared to the FF. And how oh how is the seeker arrow the problem?"

As I said above a couple of times, both FB and ToA+ELB are overpowered. Compared to the rest of CB2.

To each other, they are just about equal. The *only* two attacks that have a hope of drawing with the other.

Because they are just about ballanced with each other *does not* mean they are ballanced compared to CB2.

Therfore, these two are overpowered...

Now about seekers. Sometimes it's necessary for a ToA/Elb to use seekers to beat the FB/FF. (It's not if it's a single FB mage for example)

This does not mean the ToA/Elb is underpowered. It actually comes ahead of FB/FF in terms of power, as it's more versatile. It can equip normal arrows, or seekers. And still has *no mitigation*.

Bar itself.

The FB/FF on the other hand, does have other counters. TBF, MgS, AMF. It's just these counters are too underpowered to really do anything to it.

We all know offense is greater than defense. And these two attacks have the greatest offensive potential in all of CB.

I hope this makes sense! :)

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] July 20 2005 9:51 AM EDT

Okay, gents, pony up! I'll need Al's DBs, Ranger/Moser's axbow, and Moser's Morg. (This is actually a less-expensive test than my previous idea!)

The only problem is that I'm not fighting Al's and Ranger's full NW/ToA combo if I have their stuff. So, Al will need to borrow a comparably-expensive pair of DBs and Ranger will ... oh, hell, that $18m won't make a statistically significant difference, will it?

Will that be enough NW-boost, in the right places, to make a valid comparison?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 20 2005 9:52 AM EDT

"Stick the difference in NW between you and I into a pair of DB's or an axbow, then tell me if its NW or ToA that rules."

Gotta agree with Chet here. There is no way a pair of DB s on a no dex minion will ever out pace a ToA wearer.

Because of the ever increasing pth it grants.

Just because of this, I fundamentaly belive, ToA wearers will always get their two dex based hits on 20 dex minions. No matter the size of DB s the target wears...

QBJohn Birk [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 20 2005 9:56 AM EDT

Well, I can only speak for myself in this matter, but, because I started this character late by comparison, I have avoided doing the whole hire/fire retrain as much as possible. I hired and fired one minion (he lasted about 4 days) as a hedge against the NW to PR link. I then added that minion back, had him as an extra DM enchanter who was so underpowered the only thing I could do was unlearn that and make him another wall.

Now if you are talking about learning and unlearning the base decays and CoC's and magic missles and such, sure I have done that a TON, but at 92% of about say 8K thats not much retraining. How about this. Look at my MPR and the level of my tat. I have had the same char and the same tat from the "beginning" of this character as a fighter vs. farm. My MPR is 439K and my tat is level 431K. So I have not retrained a ton, or added and subtracted a million times, if I had, then most likely (if I understand what you are saying there) my tat level would be considerably higher than my MPR.

And CT I have not avoided the question, just thought I had answered that question, stick as much NW into defense as the ToA's have into offense and viola, you have the counter to the ToA. As in DB's. As in AC. My wall has an AC of 286, it nerfs 60% of all physical damage, but only 38% of magical damage. Again, to counter a ToA's offensive NW, simply apply the same NW to defense. If you have a non-tat wearing tank, and get his AC up to say 350, then you block 75% of my elbow damage. So instead of 100K I do 25K. You can last a long time taking 1/4 physical damage. Or Big DB's. Again its not about the ToA its about the NW.

QBsutekh137 July 20 2005 9:58 AM EDT

True, GL. CT, Sefton DID answer the question. His thought is that with equivalent net worth, a mage can have large enough DBs to reduce the opposing tank to a single hit, and with a large CoI, the mage can make his/her DD blows be equivalent to a large weapon/strength combination. Or throw in an axbow to make it interesting.

The bottom line is that a mage needs to reduce enemy hits to singles (because then the tank is just like him -- a single attack per round) and needs to increase DD damage to account for the fact that the tank has STR _and_ NW helping him out.

If DBs can get the tank down to one hit, then I have to say I agree with Sefton. But that is the part I am not completely swallowing yet for the reasons GL mentioned subsequently..

QBJohn Birk [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 20 2005 10:00 AM EDT

Right so train DX on the mage. Again, you are not trying to make an unbeatable strat, just a ToA beatable strat. Train HP DD DX, add some huge DB's and poof.

QBJohn Birk [Black Cheetah Bazaar] July 20 2005 10:04 AM EDT

and BTW if you don't like DB's do it with AC. Heck again, this is not a GOOD strat, just a ToA beatable strat. Put 350 AC on your FF mage. Sure your FF loses a TON with all that heavy armor, but if you train only HP and FF, and have 350 AC you nerf 75% of my elbow damage, but probably lose about what 50% on your FF effect, but again, since my ToA tank ac is 41, with a DD protection AC of 26, you don't need but half your FF to hurt me anyway.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 20 2005 10:15 AM EDT

Sefton, that's a great idea! Massive AC.

I'm sure we've got minions with around 250 AC at the moment. Making them a heavy tank is out of the question, they won't be able to hit the ToA tank at all.

But they'll need CML s instead of DB s, so you're granting 3 maybe 4 hits. Over the 1 or two the Mage with DB s might be taking... You would need greater than 75% reduction (without Protection, DM is part of this question).

And Dex is out of the question. Train a DD at -50%, and Dex around the same... So much wasted xp...

Bahh, just get a massive FB and resign yourself to draw with every big ToA/Elb archer. You'll win versus everyone else anyway....

[T]Vestax July 20 2005 10:18 AM EDT

Well, the combination of any reasonable damage dealer, even GA, combined with well protected Decay wall or enchanter can often overcome the ToA tank with less NW. I know we forgot about this option long ago when I pointed out that no mage should easily overcome seeker arrows, but Decay Walls are not your average mage. (Even if they are becoming common.)

So you build the biggest DB Wall ever backed with a GA Enchanter. Use your NW to pump up the wall and with a Corn on the enchanter you can outpace any DM in the game at the same PR. It's not perfect but in theory it has a shot.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 20 2005 10:28 AM EDT

Oh.. That's got me thinking..

How about;

W: High AC, DB s, High HP, Base Decay, Mgs.
E: All GA with a little Str and Dex, plus a 'Very Big' melee weapon.

The Wall is to take the ELB shots, doesn't even matter about seekers, as it's at the front, so MgS could be ditched. With a massive GA (around 1/2 your total xp), some damage will be returned even when facing DM, making the Wall a tough thing to get past.

The Decay is there because it works well with all the armour penalties. And to crack open the ToA tank.

The finisher will be GA coupled with Decay. The Enchanter with the weapon has no chance of hitting the Tank, but is only there in case the tank hides behind weaponless enchanters (which wouldn't damage themselves on your GA).

I like it! :D

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 20 2005 10:30 AM EDT

Don't leave the decay at base, due to AMF. pump a Mithril Shield and pump Decay on your wall.

[T]Vestax July 20 2005 10:56 AM EDT

The scenario was already chosen GL, If you look up above DM is part of the package of this ToA tank team.

So the only issue was the extra damage because 1/2 HP damage doesn't kill. Either you need to hit the tank for that extra damage (which is what you choose with the big weapon), hit with another mage (which won't work with seekers), use ToBF (which is complex since it's hard to decide if decay or if ToBF should be front or back), or to do GA damage. GA damage is the simplest in my mind since it only needs to overcome the DM, which is a complete possibility.

If the person does have AMF with DM, then in order to overcome all the other teams we have thrown at it, it would have a diluted HP supply. The sizable DM means a AMF of almost equal size is required, which will drain the xp supplies of the ToA tank. This low HP tank that does massive damage will be overcome by the GA in the first 3 rounds before the decay wall kills itself in melee.

[T]Vestax July 20 2005 11:02 AM EDT

P.S.: Was this a contest, and do I win?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 20 2005 11:57 AM EDT

>_< Ho hum... Missed the connection between DM and AMF...

Myonax July 20 2005 5:15 PM EDT

I think one of the things that everyone is dancing around is there is no real NW component that can be added to mage teams that significantly enhance their performance as much as tanks.

I am sure some of that is very much by design, but the down side of that design is at extremely high ends it cripples mage teams as tank teams can both improve NW and PR to out distance themselves from mages. I am sitting on almost 5 million cash right now because the amount of effective MPR increase I would get from upping the stats on my Corn or my CoI at this point would be less then the PR I would receive from the NW increase.

I am dubious of the amount of benefit I would get from making a huge investment into DBs compared to the amount of PR it would add on to my team so I am staying clear of that until I see a mage team that can successfully utilize them against powerful tank teams.

QBRanger July 20 2005 5:20 PM EDT

Per the FORS:

Q: Mage staffs would be cool to augment magical power!
A: private explained why this is dumb with more patience than I would:

Tanks: Can become more powerful than mages, but cost lots of money to maintain.

Mages: Tend to be cheaper than tanks, but also tend to be less powerful (and less able to deal with armor penalties)
I think this provides a nice balance between spending money on your chars and spending exp on them; I see no reason to change it.

This is how Jon designed the game. Why are we beating this dead horse?

QBsutekh137 July 20 2005 6:39 PM EDT

We are beating the dead horse because now the tanks are more powerful than ever because of the ToA. So now, that extra net worth means even more.

Myonax, there always has to be a first...why not up those Dbs and be the pioneer instead of waiting?

[T]Vestax July 20 2005 6:44 PM EDT

Wasn't GL pioneering this option not to long ago.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 20 2005 6:53 PM EDT

Um, I got to +60, then frittered my cash away on other things.. One day!

As for that outdated, silly FORS entry, which should really be left to CB1, I ask you all yet again, before mentioning that specific FORS, what is the difference between a proposed Mage Satff/Wand and a CoI/Corn?

Right, back on topic. With Tanks spending NW now increasing the PR, no mage team will every be able to reach the PR levels of Tanks.

But that's not a bad thing. They don't need as much PR as tanks to be as effective.

*Magic damage increases linearly, physical damage doesn't*

The major problem this thread has posed, is that pumping what you normally would do for a ToA archer, with seekers and DM, leads you to be untouchable by Tanks and Mages (unless your a FB mage that can 1 shot kill).

Apart from being a carbon copy ToA Archer, or the equally overpowered FB mage, is there anything else that can worry a ToA archer with a setup as described by the OP?

Maybe AC, maybe the holy grail that is CB s largest pair of DB s...


AdminJonathan July 20 2005 7:01 PM EDT

"what is the difference between a proposed Mage [Staff]/Wand and a CoI/Corn?"

basically, the difference between bubblesort and radix sort

they both sort things, but one of them sucks :)

QBsutekh137 July 20 2005 8:00 PM EDT

Quite honestly, the only reason I see for a cloak being the DD augmentation item is so that it cannot be used with a tattoo. I don't understand why that is (as I will discuss later), but right now it seems obvious that is why Jonathan chose the CoI as the DD enhancer and the Corn as the enchantment enhancer.

I also agree with your sort algorithm analogy, Jonathan (sounds like you have been waiting to pull the trigger on that one for a while). However, I would call the CoI/Corn route the bubble sort.

Does Gandalf wear a funny hat? No, he hefts a super-cool staff (in varying colors as his power grows, no less). Warriors (tanks) use weapons, mages use staves. With the CoI change, it seems fairly clear that the CoI is a great item to spend net worth on for a mage. Why not make it be a staff? Considering how bloody useless a ToE is (especially in comparison to a ToA), I see no problem allowing a mage to have a DD-enhancing item and tattoo at the same time.

[T]Vestax July 20 2005 8:45 PM EDT

I don't know if we should be looking for a quicksort option or not here *smile*, but a staff equal to a Col may be too powerful.

The first is the combination of ToE and CoI, you see when a Tank puts on a ToA they lose at least give up AC for more power. In this same respect the mage must choose power over protection, so this is somewhat the same balance between both. But that is not so bad, the big deal here is on top of there being no such sacrifice with a staff, they may also get weapon allowance on top of it.

QBsutekh137 July 20 2005 9:39 PM EDT

A staff would obviously not be treated like an average melee weapon.

Also, comparing ToE to ToA is fine, but realize the ToA is a continuous augment while the ToE has a threshold. Once that threshold is breached, here comes the damage. If the ToE were set up differently than the current way, I would agree that ToE plus a DD enhancer could be a bit much. That, too, can be balanced by simply adjusting the upgrade curve of whichever item is settled upon as a DD grower.

I cannot think of a single reason why a staff would not be the same as a CoI. The only thing that might be an issue is that it is a melee "weapon" that doesn't swing. One tweak to meta-data and that issue becomes a non one.

I'm just looking for symmetry here...if you want total balance, you could even say that the staff's increase is only applied in melee. Then it becomes EXACTLY like a melee weapon for a tank.

Myonax July 20 2005 11:57 PM EDT

I wasn't implying there needs to be a change. I was more or less pointing out the obvious.

I don't mind having 5 million, I understand making a mage team with no tank I will have more money then I can ever spend. I used to spend that money on rentals and upgrading my farms, but that doesn't work anymore either.

QBsutekh137 July 21 2005 12:34 AM EDT

Um, buy BA? If you have that much cash, I am thinking you don't buy much? Even when I was getting decent rewards, buying all available BA left me barely breaking even (even without buying arrows).

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 21 2005 2:12 AM EDT

"The only thing that might be an issue is that it is a melee "weapon" that doesn't swing."

It could swing if for some reason someone stuck it on a Tank or Enchanter (But that's why it has crappy, crappy damage). But if it's on a Mage, as it should be, their DD spell will overide their melee attack, and it would never be swung.


Give mages something to fill thier empty weapon slots. Even fi they are hideously expensive to upgrade.

The same for UC. Add in some weapons (that don't overide the UC attack) that are [0x0] (+0) but give things like the VB s reduction to armour, or non dispellable VA..

Wow, I'm really running off at a tnagent here...


Jon's said it ain't gonna happen, so it ain't. But maybe the FORS entry should be changed to reflect that. The NW issue no longer stands, it's now just a case of Jon thinks the idea sucks.


Jason Bourne July 21 2005 2:51 AM EDT

well ranger...ur idea sucked :D but it was worth a shot :)

QBRanger July 21 2005 6:07 AM EDT

A, well, perhaps you needed to have a nice set of DB's on your mage. It is a key part of the strat.

QBsutekh137 July 21 2005 10:14 AM EDT

Oh yeah, the weapon wouldn't swing anyway.

So we are now down to how many "real" reasons not to have a mage staff ("real" meaning other than Jonathan just doesn't want to do it). Just one. To forbid a tattoo and DD growing item on the same mage.

That can be combatted by changing the DD augmentation rate or changing the upgrade cost curve.

Here is one thing I don't understand (just one? ok, one of a million)... People clamored for clans. Clans, clans, clans. They got clans.

People would really like to see mage staffs, and have been asking for or about them since as far back as I can remember (more than two years). They would name them, cherish them, and use them well. Instead, the idea ends up on the FORS list. We get magical hats and capes. All I want is a "real" example of why mage staffs are considered bubble sort while CoIs are considered radix. A magical cape? Please.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 21 2005 10:49 AM EDT

Why do we need to forbid a tattoo and a DD growth item on the same character?

It would have no impact on a Familiar, so that leaves ToA and ToE.

ToA is just utterly crap on a Mage (the only person that would wear a DD growth item...), so that leave just a ToE.

Unless it's to stop single mages having a familar, or a ToE?

But in that case, hire a second minion, stick the familiar on them and a CoI on a mage. To limit ex dilution, train just the EO your mages uses (or ED if you don't care about DM). If it's a ToE, you can stick that on the second minion and get a reduced effect for the Mage.

But then the Mage loses out on the AMF reduction.

So is that it? DD growth item or AMF reduction? *Shrugs* they're both the same thing... The higher your DD the less damage you take from AMF backlash.

How about general damage redction? Again, you can reduction both ways ToE, or armour from McM + CoI.

The only bonus you'll get from using a ToE + a DD growth item is an incresed resistance to AMF. Maybe that's the reason... But then, really how much of a reduction are the big DD s (800K) getting from AMF?

What's the problem with wearing a ToE and being able to spend cash to increase your DD spell, while now continuing to increase your PR?

But this has gone far off topic...

Myonax July 21 2005 10:58 AM EDT

Yarr. I derailed this thread. But I don't buy BA cause I barely get in 50% of my BA now. Buying more seems silly if I am not using all that is available to me.

QBsutekh137 July 21 2005 11:19 AM EDT

True, Myonax. I was just commenting that BA buying is a very large cash sink for a lot of folks.

GL, yes, the ToE/DD combo is the only think that I can see Jonathan worrying about. But like I said, the ToE is right crap these days anyway.

I don't think this thread has been that derailed...it does sort of boil down to tank vs. mage, with tattoos and net worth being part of that consideration.

[T]Vestax July 21 2005 3:37 PM EDT

Seekers will own your ToE/DD enhanced mages!!!

There, back on topic. :)

Myonax July 22 2005 12:35 AM EDT

Oh, & for the record, Chet, Gandalf had a staff & a sword.

QBsutekh137 July 22 2005 12:45 AM EDT

Yes, but does he have a magic CLOAK? YAY!

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] July 22 2005 1:38 AM EDT

He had a big pointy hat too. At least in the film, can't remember the book.

[T]Vestax July 22 2005 2:25 AM EDT

Yes, he had a pointy hat in the book too, in fact it is mostly do to J. R. R. Tolkien's writings that we even think of wizards dressed up in those types of hats.
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