VB vs BoTH in battle, or Why the VB is ruining the market for the ELS (in General)

QBRanger August 15 2005 7:05 PM EDT

Hi all

I know there have been plenty of posts:

But here goes:

I have a 233 AC Wall minion named War.

Now vs Gyaxx:
Gyaxx gashed War with The Soul Thief [55984]
That is a 23+ million NW BoTH

Now vs Neji:
Jyuuken gashed War with KILLER'S COMPANION [80961]
That is a 11.4 million NW VB.

So whats the better weapon????
True the BoTH has the inate leech ability.
The battles above are about the average they do to War.

The leech is the only thing worthwhile on the MH and BoTH.

Just pointing things out.

Warchild August 15 2005 7:23 PM EDT

You are pointing to the extreme of a situation as if it were the normal.

You have 233 AC on War, that is a lot of AC and the VB is designed to combat that specifically.

The only way to truly see if VB is overpowered (which is obviously what you are not-so-subtly trying to say) you would have to get damage results from several different targets in a range of ACs.

Also note that the VB does have a higher base than a BTH so it should (even against a 0AC minion) do more damage.

Granted these two weapons have a gross difference in NW but the fact remains that you are pointing to the best situation for the VB and the worst for the BTH and saying that it isn't right that the VB comes out ahead.

Come on, you are more intelligent than that.

If you want to make a case against the VB fine but do it with a set of results from several different situations not one set of results from the extreme end of the spectrum.

CT [Monopoly] August 15 2005 7:31 PM EDT

I agree with Warchild. You should probably do more tests to make sure it's not just one situation. That example is probably mostly due to the fact that your AC is really high, which is what VB is supposed to counter.

QBRanger August 15 2005 7:36 PM EDT


I am in fact far more intellligent that you think.

I am posting about my perception of the VB as I see it.

The VB is susposed to do high damage to Walls or other minions with a High AC or protection or TOE.

Now the characters I fight almost all have a high AC minion.

I am sure you will find as you grow in PR and MPR more and more characters will have high AC minions or protection or TOE's to deal with. So in fact the VB will become more and more powerful as one goes up in PR/MPR. Of course we do not know the upgrade differences which may even it out later in the game.

And no where did I say it was the best situation for the VB and the worst for the BoTH. Yes, it is the best for the VB, but how is it the worst for the BoTH?

QBsutekh137 August 15 2005 7:54 PM EDT

Warchild, a good point, but Ranger's post has many glaring facts:

The VB is HALF the net worth of the The Soul Thief.

233 is not that much AC. It really isn't. 250-300 is where it starts getting pricey in the end game.

Yes, BoNE would hit harder, but it is also two-handed. If you want tl see the weapon the VB is "leeching" from, look at the ELS.

It's also a fact that "as time goes on" the upgrade curve will make the ELS more attractive, but how far? x120 +150? That's pretty far (and probably also a grossly unfair estimate). It seems sad that only one of the "Big Four" has gotten compromised by the VB (especially since the VB was a supporter item). The VA weapons have an obvious good point, and the BoNE has the highest base damage. What does the ELS have?

Let's also not forget that ToAs now dominate 6-7 Top Ten slots now. What is the biggest compliment to a ToA tank? A large Wall. The VB has skills, and use. Ranger was merely trying to point out the current state of affairs.

AdminJonathan August 15 2005 7:58 PM EDT

two data points are meaningless.

take our intern at work -- he's trying to prove adding seats to his minivan lowers its gas mileage, but the difference in random other factors so totally dominates what he is measuring that so far he has consistently demonstrated the opposite.

QBsutekh137 August 15 2005 8:05 PM EDT

Heh, interns.

So anyway, where would the upgrade curves of the VB and ELS converge against, say, a 200 AC minion (no endurance, no protection). Can you give us a hint? *smile*

QBRanger August 15 2005 8:15 PM EDT

Jon and everyone else,

Yes I realize 2 data points are meaningless. My background, before medicine was statistics.

However, I was just pointing out that a VB with 1/2 the NW of a BoTH does much more damage. This can or cannot be a trend, I dont know.

But I don't think you'll ever find a Exec or Katana at 1/2 the NW of a BoTH doing more damage vs any type of minion.

Just that fact that I can find one situation where it happens makes me wonder if in fact my MH is better than a VB.

And as I stated before, as PR and MPR's go up there will be more and more high AC minions.

Lumpy Koala August 15 2005 8:36 PM EDT

hehe.. when I used VB, everyone said I was crazy, NW will kill me bla bla bla..

when they are threatened, they say it's overpowered :)

It's always amusing :)

But still, NW will kill me I supposed , same stat BoTH do cost 30% lesser than my VB :(

Lumpy Koala August 15 2005 8:39 PM EDT

oops, I forgot why I want to post. haha actually the above wasn't aiming at any individual , don't take it seriously :)

Actually I want to post the fact that , I used BL and Gyaxx used Archery :)

Go figure.

TrueDevil [AAA] August 15 2005 10:53 PM EDT

Don't forget that VB is actually killing katana and exec too, a supporter item this good seems quite ridiculous, just like IA. I know that VB maybe not as bad as IA, but it's close. If only VB's base damage is 70, maybe it would be fair ? or more expensive upgrade cost...

Ranger, I think you forgot about Neji having bloodlust and Gyaxx having archery, but I agree that 2x nw difference but same damage seems quite ridiculous. (let's just say it's almost the same)

Grant August 15 2005 10:58 PM EDT

So why are ELS and BoTh both trading at way above VB prices? I mean, I can get an upgraded VB in auctions for less than net worth, and that isn't happening for the other two, not by a long shot.

When base items of a given type routinely sell for six figures I find it hard to mourn the type's passing.

QBRanger August 15 2005 11:29 PM EDT

Well one theory that I have about why the prices of the ELS and BoTH are about 1-2 million for a base is as follows:

For the longest time the top 4 weapons have been the only top notch options and their rareness made them quite valuable. Base BoTH, BoNE, MH and ELS were selling for at least 3-5 million base (ELS-->MH). And it was hard to find one for sale.

Now the VB comes along, proves (so far) to be equal to most of those weapons. Key words are SO FAR. It has been told that the top 4 are cheaper to upgrade than the VB. So far the difference is minimal. But later over x100+100, it may be quite high.

Thats why the top 4 weapons still sell for over 1 million, closer to 3 for some. On the thinking that LATER, they will be better. In addition the MH and BoTH are special in that they leech 20% life without the need for VA. And with DM in the game, that is an outstanding inate weapon ability.

Also, the price of the VB is very low for its abilities due to the amount in circulation-224. This vs the approx 150 of the top 4 COMBINED. My guess is that if the VB was rarer, lets say only 40 in existance, their prices would be much higher.

TrueDevil [AAA] August 15 2005 11:42 PM EDT

Another thing of why ELS and Both price is still above VB is because some sellers that actually owned them decided to keep the price that high to control the market or something, but in the end almost nobody buying it. For Example : No actual sale for ELS since July in auction, Both price is going down everyday.
Also, if you try to sell ELS and Both at a lower than average price, usually people will start CM ing you about how you're ruining the market, etc. =) Happened to me before few times when I tried to sell CB 2 for cheaper usd.

Lumpy Koala August 15 2005 11:52 PM EDT

Well conservatively speaking, at x100 +100 , VB will be at least 30% more NW than BoTH of the same stat. This is just a rough estimate from my past experience on upping a exec to x90 +87 in CB1, and VB is more expensive to upgrade than exec.

And that's huge money :) and very unrealistic investment hehe, so in not too long run , the top 4 weaps will beat VB easily, damage-wise. The only quality that VB has is it's good againts endurance and wall-type of minions. That's also the only reason why I can beat CT and Bast, for now.

Like what Ranger has pointed out, VA for tank is a necessity :P And the innate ability of MH and BoTH is priceless. I would say only 2 top tier weap are threaten by VB, and they are BONE and ELS.

QBsutekh137 August 16 2005 12:41 AM EDT

The VA is only more essential because of DM. You can't cast it, so building it into the weapon is essential. On CB1, it was pretty much a toss-up between the VA-imbued weapons and those that weren't. The Loch was still mighty popular.

Here, I think the Morg and BoTH are very much shoo-ins, especially since ToA tanks _need_ that HP to stay alive -- they can't make up for it with AC.

Phaete August 16 2005 1:23 AM EDT

Please extrapolate on 'ruining the market'

How is making decent weapons available for more people ruining the market?

I understand 'ruining the market' as either one of 2 things:
- a supplier/manufacturer goes so low with his prices that competitors are forced to stop as they cannot compete.
- Buying up all competitors.

Both will never happen with the many campers and the very low base costs of the items.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 16 2005 5:17 AM EDT

How many people here think AC values will stay the way there are?

As time goes on, people will get higher and higher AC. Towards the top, 233 AC won't seem large, it'll be the norm.

VB s and Decay will be the only thing to cut through them, but mostly no-one will raise a Decay high enough to be worth it past AMF.

So VB s will become the tin openers of CB.

Yeah, they'll cost more than a BoTH or ELS to upgrade, but that'll probably become worth it when ELS s get reduced to 25% of their normal damage from AC, Endurance and Protection...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 17 2005 8:06 AM EDT

I can't believe anyone thinks the VB is balanced.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 17 2005 8:28 AM EDT


There are a few things I can't believe anyone thinks are balanced!

QBsutekh137 August 17 2005 9:59 AM EDT

You have to remember, "balanced" is a tricky term. Balanced at the low end? High end? When a lot of USD is involved? There are balancing acts within balancing acts in this game. The playing field itself is non-linear as teams grow, plus, there are the "edge effects" to consider (like with the Top Ten teams).

For example, we have a lot of posts saying FF is too powerful, and we have a lot of posts saying ToAs are too powerful. Well, which is it -- both? If it's both, then that sound slike there may be some balance there...

None of this changes my opinions about the things I perceive as being imbalanced, I just think there is a lot more to the overall game balance question than might meet the eye.

Grant August 17 2005 10:59 AM EDT

Heh, I hadn't noticed that none of those ELS had been selling.

Of course, my theory is, until I get over 500k minion power, I'll spend my money buying pre-upgraded 2nd tier weapons (katana, exec) below net worth.

My theory is that (due to the new PR rules) the market is depressing for everything because the value of net worth has decreased, so, excepting base rare items, items will rarely sell above net worth. You can even see that with the upgraded uber-weapons.

Right now, it's much more of a buyer's market than CB has ever seen because any given item being sold is useful to fewer people than before the change, so there's less demand (supply constant, demand decrease = price drop). I think that's here to stay.

QBJohnnywas August 17 2005 11:19 AM EDT

The introduction of the VB already killed the market for the katana and exec. I got to a million score in CB1 with an exec, and I'm sure there were many people of higher scores over there than that using them. Both weapons are still are very useful, and, the VB's ability aside, of similar damage capability to the VB.

I, and here I appear to be in agreement with Grant, think that the devaluing of certain other weapons though has more to do with the NW/PR link than anything else though.

If a sword has been boosted in NW then, (unless they plan to sit on it until they can use it,) no player is going to buy until they are ready to do so. The devaluing of rares above base has far more to do with the fact that there is no longer a wide market for them.

Chargerz-Back August 17 2005 4:14 PM EDT

i think i will go ahead and raise 100 mil and collect all 224 VBs out there =)

[T]Vestax August 17 2005 4:34 PM EDT

Phaete, I think when they say "you are ruining the market", what they mean to say is, "if you do that then I'll get less USD when I sell out".

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 17 2005 6:17 PM EDT

Ok, so after a minute or two of thought I'm ready to share my wonderous thoughts with all you poor suckers.

The VBs addition to our collection of sharp objects to shank each other with was met with greater response than any previous supporter item I've seen (save for the now notorious CoBF on cb1, which was promptly NERFED to gehenna and back). I think I'm the sole abstainer left, and now I'm seriously considering getting one simply because I'd win a LOT more fights if I had one. Granted with the advent of Tats especially the ToA, AC is going to be less of big deal than cb1. Never the less, I think
further penalizing the Tanks left who are trying to go without a ToA is silly, at least make the level of AC/End ignored depend on NW rather than a blanket 50%. I think recent changes have moved towards variable rather than fixed amounts of enchantment, why not weapons as well? Makes me drool thinking of being able to UP VA on Morg when you add NW. Maybe a defensive bonus beyond a lack of dex reduction for using a 1 handed weapon? Any hoo, at the very least I'd like to see the VB become 2 handed (while keeping the same damage) just to even out it's worth VRS. an ELS.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 17 2005 6:24 PM EDT

Shank! :)

Good point on the fixed weapon bonuses.

But AC is really being used on Walls now, not tanks. Without something like a VB, it'll be left to Decay to get through the massive Walls that will be around.
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