All about Monty (in General)

Come on people, this is stupid. People are banned for multing, using curses and we have a bane on the game and he continues without anything but a simple cb1 reset?

I just found out he is using his cb2, which he owes many people, to purchase cb1.

In fact days after his cb1 reset, he has over 3 million on a new cb1 character.

I realize there are rules concerning resets, etc.. But this is so obvious even to the most casual observer what he is doing--Stretching the rules just to the point of breaking them.

As a community we need to get together and ask this Bane be removed from the playing community.

Perhaps this is too harsh, but its not fair to those that join and get sucked into his deceit. I realise there is a "Monty Warning" but somehow he gets people to still trade with him.

Sadly, the Monty warning was not in place at the time of my deal. =(

From here it looks like he is trying to hide assets in CB1 hoping to get reset on CB2 to clear his debts.
IMHO if a rest is asked for by any of the people that he owes money to, He should be rest on both CBs.

I don't know about you guys but I hear of not a lot else then Monty and his lack of ability to pay off money he owes. Banning would be too stricked I fear but take away his chat and forum abilities might be more fair, that way he can't get another loan very easily and he can only concentrate on fighting.

i totally agree a reset is supposed to be a penalty not a debt relief. monty is playing the system. somebody please stop him

does he owe you guys anything?

So you propose we do what exactly?


Monty knock it the hell off.


That is about as close to stopping behavior as we can get. He is devious,

Resetting him doesn't fix the debts,
Banning him doesn't either.

He doesn't have anything to liquidate.


Give a viable suggestion.

He has an ELB that he could pay me with. =0

Ban.

Monty;

I have backed you when others have not, I have spoken to you in PM about your debt issues.

I am an admin, but this is not an admin issue, nor an admin comment.

I am tired of the empty promises my friend, good players suffer because you make mistakes time and again. You do not learn from those mistakes, you simply continue the same problems and get passive about it when the public gets in a frenzy.

You have lost all face to the community, people want the money they are owed no one cares beyond that.

I am fairly ready to get my own pitchfork and torch.

----------------------

Moved my post from the other thread and locked it, one thread is plenty to come up with a solution.

thank you for your cooperation in the matter.

he owes my clanmate glory money i want him to get that money and i see it as unfair that a guy who does secret deals to avoid PR posts can make out on this like monty has.

Glory;

While I feel your pain, what of the others he owes money to?

Not too long ago, we had a running total, I lost track now.

Wasn't it 22 millionish?

They all should be paid, I am not saying I am the only one who should be paid, but I believe that I have the oldest debt, but I may be mistaken in that assumption.

so we are full circle with;

Monty is a problem, fix him.

and my question, how?

It has to be fair, I do not mind protecting that which is CB from the few, setting a new precedent is not a problem.

Have his creditors force him into "bankruptcy". Assign a "trustee" to collect, hold, and sell all of his sellable stuff & CB2 cash. The trustee then doles out payments to the creditors, longest debt first on down. Meanwhile, Monty is required to make rigid, regular payments to the trustee until his debt is gone.
Given fair warning, if he defaults on the trustee just once, no tolerance - he gets banned.

Just a suggestion...

i say you take all is cb1 $ and sell it for cb2$ to repay his debts

He has a 2 mil NW ELB. I have offered to take that an forgive his debt and give him 700K cb2 also. The market is cold right now for ELB's and I think that is more than fair considering that he owes me about 3.4 mil.

Does anyone else think that is a fair deal? Monty is telling me that I am trying to scam him...

Sounds more than fair to me. I did the same thing with the tat I sold him. Simply threaten banning if he refuses.

i think a base of 4 million is good tho.... and say 70% of the NW.....

Wuss; one of two things. Either ban him, or make transfers TO him impossible on both CBs.

ELB are not selling for 4 mil base, have you noticed how many ELB are for sale right now. People are having a hard time even insta'ing them.

Ok so this isnt the best thought out idea or the most sober one i've ever had, but it is an alternative to banning or resettng him.

Give him an ultimatum, reset or debt mangement. If he decides he wants to make things right with the people he owes then he could give all his assets (cb1 as well) to a third party so that they can distribute his earnings to the people he owes. Of course if he could do this himself, if money management were his forte at all. Seeing as how he cant, someone else could watch over what he does with the money. (like holding over 300k without giving it to the 3rd party)

This is a possible way to keep around an old player and keep many many people from getting sorely burned. So of course for the job of managing monty's debt i nominate our illustrious qb.....ranger.

/me throws on flame suit and runs.

That is the second time this idea has come up in this thread alone,


I would like to hear more.

wow i type slow. At least i wasnt the only one with that idea.

So umm... any bets on when he will get his nose broken in the real world for not paying off his debts as in usd stuff since he has yet to learn about what happens when a loan happens.

Also it is amazing that in this game people actually do loans. Majority if not everyone of them never have payplans, everyone want's cash only or items on hand and have a secure trade and none of those you send first/you drop first I drop second stuff.

That's basically how "restructuring" bankruptcy works - a third party takes control of the debtors assets until all creditors are satisfied. It's not such a crazy idea if you can find someone trustworthy & willing to take on the responsibility of being his trustee... So, if he's a good boy, everyone ends up happy, but if he can't be straightened out, he goes away...

I'm sick of montys dastardly deeds i swear anytime i think of him now he's twirling a thin black handle bar mustache, so I'm thinking of offering 2 mil cb2 to be givin to help ease his debts so long as he gets banned.

Why does Monty get all these special privelages? He is a player of a year and is pulling these stunts. You guys are trying to ban him from chat and forums to "slow down his loans" HE IS DOING IT ON HIS OWN FREE WILL. I say ban him and get it over with. His acts are worse than many other people banned.

Space, are you willing to pay his debts should be banned?

If not, then you are telling those who are being shafted to live and learn.


I have rules to stand by, and I enforce them.

I also have compassion.

How about those on CB1? you would rather let him steal more from people again than lose what we lost? He was reset on CB1 and he is all ready putting himself in debt more here to get cash there. It's not like this is the first time.

Actually, I've proposed CB2 bankruptcy not as a privilege to Monty, but as a privilege to everyone he's "allegedly" (lawyerspeak :P) duped, and as a tool to resolve future debt conflicts going forward...

Converted to USD, his debt seems to run around $300. That's pretty significant.

It was around 700 USD on Cb1.

There is no easy solution.
And I'm certainly glad that I never gave him money. If I did, he'd have been long reset by now. I'm very tolerant as long as I see payments coming in. But really, he's making it hard on new people to get loans and with nothing being done to him why should he stop? Also I'm sure that others will follow in his footsteps if no precedence is ever set.

Also, I have been burned twice on loans, no more loans for me. I'd rather spend my money on myself.

I tried to help Monty out a few times, and asked him to control himself..But I too think its about time the powers that be stepped in and go ahead and liquidate him and divide the money up accordingly in %'s to all his creditors..While CB is not in the money recovery or equipment recovery business I think this whole thing has gone too far. Im sorry Monty I dont think you are a bad person but I do think you are a bad finance manager and not so slick at all. Everyone has tried to get over this and I see this ending soon for you here

It wouldn't be so bad if he had something to show for it, but even I have to question the likeliness that Monty will even pay any of these creditors back when the cycle has been: loan, good payments for a short time, crappy payments, nothing, rinse, repeat with a new lender.

Since when admin get involve in those thing.I saw more reset lately that the whole CB2 life span.

Ill clarify thing


Admin can reset or ban faulty players they are not loan manager.To me the only Q is do you ban him or reset him.

Admins will intervene if the situation warrants this..Jon in this case I think holds the Sword of Damocles in his hands

From PR rules

If person A scams person B, we will reset A. We do not want to encourage scamming. BUT, it is your responsibility to make sure the person you are dealing with is trustworthy. We also do not want to encourage the thinking of, "so what if this guy offering me a loch for $100k is scamming me, all I have to is whine to the admins to get my money back." So no, we're not in the property recovery business. Same goes for loan installment payments. In other words: if you want truly scamproof trading, your only option is the auction system.

Now that is how the rules stand at this point. mrwuss has agreed that setting a new precedent is not a problem. While I disagree with this (it would mean a LOT more work for our admins) it is not my decision.

That being said, the only way to get monty's finances in order is by force. A setup payplan to a third party, (who will be responsible for paying out the loans) has been suggested but I think that it would need to be inforced more strictly. Specifically I suggest that monty's transfer abilities (both to and from to avoid selling cb2 for cb1) be taken away completely, at least until he is debt free. Then an admin (preferably one that is an admin here and on cb1, so this can be done in both places) regularly move Monty's funds from him (to a certain amount, say $300 so he can heal) to a character setup specifically for this (call it Monty's Debt Collection.) Then that admin start sending out the money to the people that he owes money.

Personally I think that this is a bit drastic and very time consuming for the admin involved but I see no other way of people getting their money back. And if this is done there is still no guarantee that Monty will continue to play long enough to repay any of his debt's.

I like Monty personally and I think this is just a case of a kid getting in WAY over his head but something needs to be done about it. To put it simply he has broken the rules and deserves to be punished. Personally I think this means a combo reset, here and cb1, or a ban. I feel for the people he owes money too but it comes to matter of knowing the people you are getting into business with, if any of the people on cb2 had asked they would have found out about Monty's shaded past.

Now that is how the rules stand at this point. mrwuss has agreed that setting a new precedent is not a problem. While I disagree with this (it would mean a LOT more work for our admins) it is not my decision.


Reply:So that would imply new rule and brand new set of potential problem.

Why is it the rules only ever seem bent in a negative direction.

Monty has debt. Who wants to be the one to call default?

Until that happens, I say that he's free to go.



THE ONLY WAY I think Monty should be punished is the normal channels:

1. Present a PR thread in which a payment schedule was agreed to.

2. Prove that it has been broken.

3. Ask an admin for a reset.

I'd like to see examples of previous accounts being banned (not reset) for being default.

If it's never happened before, it shouldn't happen now.

You want Monty to stop? The community as a whole needs to smarten up and just stop dealing with him. no more CB$ trades, or pay plans, or loans.

I remember I guy from CB1, his name was prokrat. When he had his first mil, he went into every fs/wtb thread and offered 1 mil for ANYTHING.

He was never even reset. That was a very different situation, he was 12. But Monty's like a 12 yr old.

When Prokrat did that, for months people went around to fs/wtb posts that he had posts in and warned the poster.

Why does it seem like no one does that in CB2? If you see Monty trying to get a loan or a payplan, inform the threads creater, not to deal with this player. Point out threads. I've done the same thing with other players before, players I don't trust.

Monty is not special, he should not be treated as such. Banning him would be special treatment.

And, saying that people have been banned for less is a HUGE matter of opinion, and might just go to show how wrong THOSE bannings were.

Just end this criticizing of Monty, wow. Posts like these are on CB1 as well, and people are just saying the same thing over and over and over again. Monty has been reset on CB1, that was his punishment there. If the admins feel that the same outcome should befall him here on CB2 that will be his punishment as well.

If he is reset, and people loan him money they are being stupid, not Monty. Just let this end.

The policy is clear and simple. No exceptions will be made as far as I'm concerned.

It's black or white people. Either the policy needs to be enforced through the appropriate procedure or it doesn't.

To be blunt it's time for the "community" to put up or shut up.

I too do not know the answer, but I can say that I have loaned Monty money twice with CB2 debts totaling in excess of over 1 mil. Both times he successfully and relatively quickly paid off the debts.

A quick question: Is there any way to show how much debt a person has before you loan them money?

G Beee,

I disagree with you. For Monty it is not as simple as Black and White.

CB exists and thrives in part due to the honesty of its players. However, Monty, through many actions, has broken that honesty many times. Since the rule never thought someone like that would happen, perhaps new rules and/or actions need to be take.

Monty has skirted the rules and stretched them so far its almost comical to see what he gets away with next.

From trying to scam people into paying more than the xfer costs when loaning items, to not having people put deals with him in the PR, to flat out not paying until extreme pressure is applied, to not paying at all, Monty is a black mark on CB.

As a community, you can see that we are fed up almost to a person. This is indeed a special case. While I am not an admin, I am QB and as such I am trying to get the community to show Jon and the Admins exactly how far this Monty situation has gotten out of hand.

Ranger: what do you want the admins or jonathan to do then?

and about resetting and/or banning: it's up to the people that Monty owes money to that they should ask themselves if they want that to happen or not.

What I would like:

A ban on all transfers to and from Monty unless approved by an admin.

A ban on Monty selling cb2 for cb1, since he has a fresh clean slate there to start his borrowing spree all over again.

Since Monty obviously wants to get reset in cb2 so he can start all over with a clean slate, anything but that.

But eventually it may be time to just ban him from the game. I realize that he does not owe me money and that its not my decision, but he has skirted the rules of both CB and of being a gentleman long enough something drastic likely has to occur. Sort of like with the Max situation.

If people are stupid enough to loan Monty money even with an official warning from the admins on the confirmation page, then they may well have to learn their lesson the hard way...

But if monty crosses the line we admins are well within our rights to ban him. No clean slate for this guy.

I also banned him on CB1.

ban of CB1 was the right thing to do. I think I don't know enough about the current actions to have a solid opinion on Cb2

I have made a decision about what I intend to do in reference to Monty's debt to me. There is currently a BoNE in auction that will go toward paying off his debt to me (and hopefully others if it sells for enough), he is also selling an ELB. These two items should allow Monty a chance to pay off quite a bit of his debt to various people. If, after those sales are done, if I am not paid in full, regretfully, I will have to ask for a reset. I don't know whether he should be banned or not, I do not feel that can be requested solely from one player to carry any validity. Anyway, FWIW that is where I stand.

Okay, everyone. You've gotten official word as to your choices of course of action from Jon & the admins: banning. But the "stupid enough to loan him anything" concept shouldn't apply to those he has debts to from before Jonathan instituted the "Monty warning".

So, the first question that has to be asked is, do any of you "Monty creditors" have official "proof" (PR posts with specific payment guidelines that he has defaulted on) to get a ban? And are you willing to do it and lose the money you've loaned?

The second question is for Monty: is the fear of being banned enough to make you agree to an "unofficial" ( in the eyes of the admins) structured repayment "program"?

I've brought up the concept of a "trustee" in previous posts here. I'm willing to take on the responsibility. Why?
I'm tired of seeing these lengthy Monty threads that never have a real resolution.
I love a challenge.
I believe in fair play.
I believe that if a creditor takes the risk and extends a loan, he should always have some way to see some return on it.
I've have no interaction with Monty whatsoever, so I'm completely unbiased.
Why trust me?
I've never done anything to make me untrustworthy, and if I take this on, I risk reset or banishment myself. Besides my time, I've invested quite a bit of my hard earned USD, and there's no way I want to see it become wasted.

If all parties involved (Monty and his creditors) want to see an alternative Monty's banishment or his continued "getting away with it", and can answer yes to all of the above questions, I'm open to negotiations on this concept.

"I believe that if a creditor takes the risk and extends a loan..."

Without meaning to, you bring up an important point: creditors in real life charge interest because there IS risk associated with it.

I get the impression some people here have forgotten this.

Raising the interest rate does no good when you are not getting any payments. I real life, Monty would have defaulted and been throw in jail or had to declare bankruptcy.

Thank you Jonathan, that reminds me - I say "open to negotiations", because if it is what ya'll want, and I did take on the risk, I would expect a nominal "collections fee" for my efforts.

What Jon means is that the bank always runs the risk of losing money on a loan. Interest is not simply for the sake of covering the banks expenses such as wages, paperwork, and other essentials, but it is also to cover the money lost on failed investments. Interest is not for the sake of making more money then you had before in real life, it's to break even.

Since loaners incur none of the expenses above except transfer fees and the costs of default you should be able to supply much lower interest rates then in real life, which we do. Yet it also seems that the actual cost of defaults on CB is much higher then in real life, so in reflecting I think interest rates may actually be too low for the average loaner to break even.

People are wrongly under the impression that interest is simply for the sake of making a profit. This is why they whine every time they don't. If you all want loans to be about making profit, then I'm afraid your rates are just too low. It's frankly your own fault for either not making your loans more secure or not charging higher interest rates to cover such costs.

Glory: where the hell did you get the impression that I said raising interest rates mid-loan is the solution to your problem?

A smart lender charges interest such that he'll still make a profit if some of his clients default. Raising rates mid-loan has nothing to do with this general concept.

I was not replying to your post Jonathan, I was commenting on a post above. Chill boss man. =)

The only reason why Bones may have turned a profit at all is because he put a lot of effort into making his loans as secure as they could be. He kept collateral, built up a small select list of trusted clients and did background checks I'm sure. The reason he charged such low interest is because he was sick of rates 9% and even higher. He was very successful in bringing all the rates down, but none of you want to be as diligent as he was in securing your loans and so none of you should be charging 3% or less interest on every loan unless you WANT to lose money. It's a trade off, more work for you in trade for lower rates that you can charge.

I know there are always exceptions, but I've gotten the impression that debt in CB2 is more about "making the sale" for the seller, and "acquiring the desired item quickly" for the buyer, than about traditional "loans". In the sense that this is all in the context of a game, (which this all is, although I get the impression that some forget that regularly), an above normal amount of trust and "sense of community" gets involved, so to apply real world business models as reason to say "tough luck, guys" is a bit over the top...

It's basic economics that there be a risk component to every investment. Making it otherwise in CB would either ruin the economy or just make us look stupid, like defining pi to be 3.

Sorry that this offends your sense of justice but that's how the world works. :)

My post on CB1 about this.

He either needs to be banned or everyone in the community needs to come to an agreement to NOT do business with him.

Period

It seems like people are talking about this as a basic loan and that basic economic loan principles should be in effect. While I do not argue the truth of what everyone is saying about interest, loans, risk and the like, I do however want to interject that (at least in my case) this was not a loan. I am not a bank nor have I ever tried to be a bank/lender on cb2.

I was a character that made a deal with another character. I gave him one of my high MPR chars, complete with a set of items (rares included), and he agreed to pay for it (publicly). I gave him 6 weeks to pay me without any penalties. This was not done as agreed upon. If payment is not made completely post the current sales he is doing, I will ask for a reset and maybe even a ban.

If you cannot trust people to deal honorably within the cb community (which I think is one of the great assets of the cb2 community is the trust factor among players...) then the community/economy eventually will break down.

Actually, that's how THIS world (CB2) works. In THE world, there is legislation, attorneys, collections, wage garnering, and a whole slew of options that lenders and creditors can use to get their returns. Sometimes I forget that CB is actually a benevolent dictatorship (and I absolutely don't mean that with any insult - it's just the best model I can think of). I have no sense of justice to be insulted, this discussion has just been something to amuse myself with.

At this point, I change my opinion to ban him. Either way, I don't care, and I've already lost interest in this pursuit.

Oops! I forgot to put a smile at the end of all that - this goes up there ^
:)

You're getting hung up on semantics, Glory.

Any time you give someone of value V in return for a lower value, with the expectation that the difference will be made up over time, that is a loan, and you should take appropriate steps to manage your risk.

Conflating this with penalties for bad debt only muddies the water. Nobody is arguing that Monty and his like should not be penalized for breaking faith with the community.

Barzoo: fundamentally, in CB and RL, bad debts are a risk you run when making a loan. Collection methods are incidental and do not change this fact.

The part I am hung on the most;

"breaking faith with the community"

I wish there was a rule for this problem, but alas that would leave us playing in a very odd world.

that's just a fancy way of saying "not fulfilling agreements in PR"

sheesh, is everyone a lawyer today?

Objection your Honor!
I would like to call my next witness!
I would like to call to the stand...Michael Jackson because he obviously was good enough to get off on his charges, maybe he can help out Monty. =)

Michael had millions of dollars...monty has -20 million or so =P

I was only translating what Jon meant and addressing an issue I have with loans in general. As for Monty, if I was one of his creditors then I wouldn't hesitate to ask for a ban if that was an option a full-admin would offer.

I am not a lawyer, today or any other day,

I just hate people who cause such a wave in the population, breaking faith that CB relies on to keep churning out great players.

Why not worry about resetting people who make loans with no absolute Due date? If you *WANT* it paid back, make sure you have a set date to have it back by. What happened to the stupidity tax? Start fining people who give Monty money on a p/p, and use the fine money to pay back people Monty owes money to...

Hurray! Looks like this thread has passed the "why-the-hell-are-people-still-responding-to-this"-threshold!

Monty is the CB equivalent of Kevin Trudeau. He cannot be stopped unless he is totally banned. Why anyone would risk that much money with anyone on CB is beyond me.

The "stupidity tax" has always denoted allowing the consequences of stupidity to take their natural effect, not adding insult to injury by fining someone for making a bad loan.

banning me on cb1 necessary? that's pretty much the only thing getting me online here at all. I mean you ban me from the place thaty I don't have debts in....JUST after a reset...? doesn't make sense to me. I mean what did it? I said I was sorry to glory that I shouldn't have sold my cb2 for cb1but you could have demanded me to send it back or sell it back for cb2$ or I will be ban.

Just trying to figure you out.

Monty what do YOU think should be done.


You are a leech on that which is CB, you do not seem to care that others suffer from your choices.


So tell us what you think should be done, giving you time to pay off the loans isn't exactly working well.

Don't try to play the martyr card here, Monty. Selling CB2 for CB1 instead of paying down your debts is clearly an act of bad faith.

Also, in Monty's defense, I think selling CB2 for CB1 was a smart move.

For a fairly small amount of CB2 he could get a character up and going nicely on CB1 to help supplement his income.

In theory anyway.

In theory I am always right.


Heather (my other half) tends to disprove that often :/

seriously though cb1 was my main income/outcome of cb2$ I sell it and I buy it.

And yet you had loans in both games and failed to make those who loaned you the money on CB1 happy enough to let it slide.

I am still waiting for you to answer my question.

I couldn't join CB1, so I'm not exactly sure how big Monty was in that game before the reset/ban. Was he doing well or was his progress comparable to where he is now in CB2? I guess my question is, was all of that loaned income even doing anything for him on either game?

no

he had $8M or so in NW (from selling $CB2) and not quite 1000 battles since his reset last week

So let me get this straight.

He doesn't really fight at all. So he must be spending most of his time chatting and making deals. He has had loans in the past but they were paid off eventually. He continues to take in more loans while already being in debt. Without fighting nearly at all he somehow manages to pay enough when the complaining gets load.

This sounds like a standard pyramid scheme to me. It's the oldest scam in the book. He's been paying you all off with your own money and I would never ever expect to get it back without another person going into debt. As someone pointed out already, he is always in debt and the debt is always getting bigger spite the fact that he pays people off.

I can't even count the number of people who insist on thinking he has bad judgment, or makes poor decisions, or that he can't seem to control his finances. He is controlling them quite well I would say and he'll leave this game with your real money (money you paid for yourselves) no matter what happens now. Face it people, he's much better at manipulating you then you are at defending your own purses. This is not the actions of an innocent "kid", so stop calling him such.

WOW! Jon you of all people should know....rentals...thats where my NW was.

Psh...make a mage team in Cb1, they are free and effective. No NW is required and it is 100% profit. Don't try and sneak around it.

I have an EEMM team and make about 400k a day cb1 just by fighting with a total NW on the character of 500k.

I honestly DID try the EEMM hated it I kept losing over and over and the lower I went the lower the rewards.

wish I had a cb1 account

I should get one for being an admin here!

/me starts making picket signs

obviously i was exaggerating a bit with my fining people with stupidity, but you gotta admit, people need to stop giving in to him.

/me fines smallpau1 for dragging this up, from the very last position on the active threads page, to the very top again. Way to go!

Well a EEMM team is cheap to built but rewards are low

How big is monty cb2$ debt?
If I remember right in cb1 those who loan a big amount of cb$ will ask for an item deposit in cause the loan get default.
After the loan is fully paid, the deposit will be returned.

I swear I'm going to close this post in another day. As for the collateral issue, that would solve the problem whenever Monty defaults on a loan. Unfortunately he is skilled in getting people to not only loan him money on faith, but he also manages to get loans without a public record. If you can accomplish the later, then the former is no extra effort.

'Sigh', Monty is just making things harder for the newer guys... Nobody can be trusted, lol....