Questions about AMF (in General)


Maelstrom August 28 2005 2:38 PM EDT

I recently hired a new minion who is training pure AMF, but my mage also has AMF trained. My questions:
  1. How does AMF stack? They both seem to cast independently...
  2. Why does my mage cast AMF with a higher %, when he has a lower amount of AMF trained? Here's from a battle, where those two minions have everything unequipped:
    Joukahainen cast Antimagic Field on Feuersturm (0.50)
    Joukahainen cast Protection on all friendly Minions (4)
    Ilmarinen cast Ethereal Chains on all enemy Minions (24526)
    Ilmarinen cast Ablative Shield on all friendly Minions (45121)
    Vainamoinen cast Antimagic Field on Feuersturm (0.69)
    Vainamoinen cast Guardian Angel on all friendly Minions (?)
    Joukahainen is the new minion, with Antimagic Field: 107,280
    Vainamoinen is the mage, with Antimagic Field: 62,761

As I wrote this it occurred to me that maybe the values stack as they are cast, so Joukahainen casts for 50%, Vainamoinen casts for 19%, 50+19 = 69%, the final value? Does this make sense?

QBRanger August 28 2005 2:40 PM EDT

The %'s do not add up.

What adds up is your levels.

IE is you have 400k levels on one minion and 30k on the other, the effective AMF is what would be 430k on one minion.

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 August 28 2005 2:40 PM EDT

They stack as all spells do, by spell level, not by effect

IE: AMF #1 (1000) ###

AMF #2 (1000) ###

would stack to equal AMF# 3 (2000) ###

hope that wasn't too confusing :-P

Maelstrom August 28 2005 2:48 PM EDT

I'm not sure if you answered my questions. You're both saying that the levels add up to a single value, but as you can see above, both minions cast AMF... so which value is it?

And another question I meant to ask: is it worth it to keep the AMF on my mage, or should I unlearn and put it all on my fireball?

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 August 28 2005 2:50 PM EDT

It casts twice to show that both minions are indeed casting thier trained spell, the last minion to cast a stacked spell will show the cumulative effect.

and, IMO, with the way the spells stack it is not worth it to have them stacking (unless you really have nothing better to spend EXP on)

Special J August 28 2005 2:50 PM EDT

It is the last value listed,

the orignal AMF took it to .50, the second one took it to .69

AdminShade August 28 2005 2:55 PM EDT

Maelstrom:

The first minion in the row casts an AMF of 0.50 against that minion.
The second minion casts an additional amount of AMF making the AMF a total of 0.69.

If you would have only the second minion then that minion could perhaps cast for 0.32 or something around it (speculation)

But now for your question, is it worth it:

If you see that you don't block out enough magic damage with 1 AMF then either add another one or train more experience into the 1 AMF.

QBJohnnywas August 28 2005 2:57 PM EDT

Build up the AMF on your new minion and then when it is high enough retrain your mage's AMF into his DD spell. That would be my advice anyhow....

Maelstrom August 28 2005 3:01 PM EDT

Thanks everyone, that's what I was looking for. And I've basically been doing what Johnnywas suggested...

Grim Reaper August 30 2005 7:04 AM EDT

This amf stacking thing confuses the hell out of me too.

First minion seems to cast the most decimals, the second one ends up adding a bit less, and then the third one adds a bit less than the second one so when all 3 combine it is not like 1000x3 being lets say (.23)x3=.69, it ends up like .23 +.18 +.12=.53

even though a single amf at 3000 would probably cast at .69

AdminShade August 30 2005 7:12 AM EDT

a single AMF at 3000 wouldn't be casting at .69 if the combined amf level (3000) casts at a lower percentage...

Grim Reaper August 30 2005 3:23 PM EDT

what I'm saying is why does the first one cast at certain # and the rest cast lower and lower. Keep in mind all 3 are at the same level.

Warchild August 30 2005 3:39 PM EDT

because AMF is not linear

in your example you said " it is not like 1000x3 being lets say (.23)x3=.69, it ends up like .23 +.18 +.12=.53 " The problem with your example is that if a single 1000 AMF casts at .23 then a 3000 AMF does not cast at .69 If 3x1000 AMF cast at .53 then a single 3000AMF would also cast at .53

All spells stack according to the levels of the spells. For some spells (such as AS) this is linear (ignoring the multi-minion penalties for ease of explanation.) AS cast for roughly 1/2 of its levels so a 3000AS would give 1500 HP and a 6000AS would give 3000HP. However that is not the case with AMF (and several other spells) a 3000AMF may cast for .40 against a certain opponent, while a 6000AMF would only cast for .60 against the same opponent. Note that the numbers for AMF are not exactly accurate (ie i do not know that the 6000AMF would cast for exactly .60 just that it would NOT cast for .80)

Hope this helps :)

bartjan August 30 2005 3:55 PM EDT

Because the AMF effect also depends on the Direct Damage spell it's facing.

Remember it's enchantment *levels* that stack, not effects.
In other words, a level 1000 enchantment and a level 2000 enchantment combined will be equally effective as 1 single level 3000 enchantment. This is valid for any enchantment.

How much more effective that level 3000 enchantment is, compared to a level 1000 or level 2000 enchantment, that differs per enchantment. Ablative Shield for example is (almost) linear, so AS(1000)+AS(2000) is almost AS(3000). For Protection that's completely not the case.

As I said, AMF effect also depends on the Direct Damage spell it works against. Its effect is a percentage (expressed as a number between 0 and 1). Because of this, it should be obvious that if an AMF of level 1000 gives an effect of say 0.2, that a level 10,000 AMF simply can't be 10x as effective...

Realize the difference between "level" and "effect" and it should be more obvious.

Grim Reaper September 1 2005 5:42 AM EDT

My 14k amf x 4 of them in action:

Rat cast Antimagic Field on Yahiko (0.25)
Rat cast Antimagic Field on Kenshin (0.22)
Nexus cast Antimagic Field on Yahiko (0.41)
Nexus cast Antimagic Field on Kenshin (0.36)
Camera cast Antimagic Field on Yahiko (0.55)
Camera cast Antimagic Field on Kenshin (0.48)
Soldier cast Antimagic Field on Yahiko (0.67)
Soldier cast Antimagic Field on Kenshin (0.61)

As you can see, certain ones end up having higher #'s added to the first amf casted onto each minion.

For Yahiko, the added #'s were 0.16,0.14,0.12
For Kenshin it was 0.14, 0.12, 0.13?

So you can see how the effects of having all those amf's happen. From this test it looks like the first amf does all the work and the others come in to help whenever they feel like it, otherwise they just watch the first amf do all the work sort of speak.

Rat cast Antimagic Field on Ausa's familiar (0.11)
Rat cast Antimagic Field on Ausa (0.16)
Nexus cast Antimagic Field on Ausa's familiar (0.18)
Nexus cast Antimagic Field on Ausa (0.27)
Camera cast Antimagic Field on Ausa's familiar (0.25)
Camera cast Antimagic Field on Ausa (0.36)
Soldier cast Antimagic Field on Ausa's familiar (0.30)
Soldier cast Antimagic Field on Ausa (0.43)

Another one:
Rat cast Antimagic Field on Sixpence (0.25)
Nexus cast Antimagic Field on Sixpence (0.40)
Camera cast Antimagic Field on Sixpence (0.54)
Soldier cast Antimagic Field on Sixpence (0.66)

Maybe there is some penalty for having multiple minoins cast amf?

AdminShade September 1 2005 5:52 AM EDT

There is no penalty for multiple minions casting a spell after another.

It is just that each minion casts for another part of the total.

minion 1 casts 5000
minion 2 casts 2000
minion 3 casts 2000
minion 4 casts 2000

so then minion 2 casts for 7000 TOTAL
minion 3 casts for 9000 TOTAL
minion 4 casts for 11000 TOTAL

so if 5000 casts for a .25 AMF then 11000 will cast for around 0.5something.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 1 2005 5:53 AM EDT

No penalty, but the AMF is not linear. That's why you see different amounts added.

For example; (and all numbers made up)

You face two minions (DD1,DD2), one with dd of 28K. The other 52K.

Your 4 minions (M1 to M4) cast AMF at 14K each.

M1 cast AMF on DD1 (0.20)
M1 cast AMF on DD2 (0.09)
M2 cast AMF on DD1 (0.50) <= by this point your total AMF 14k+14K = the DD you you reach a 50% AMF.
M2 cast AMF on DD2 (0.20)
etc...

Your 4 minions in total will cast AMF at 52K which would hit a total 50% retunr by the end, but that does not mean each individual gives a 12.5% reduction.

Hmm... not a good example, but I hope it helps.

Grim Reaper September 1 2005 6:01 AM EDT

How about we just argue about the way the casts end up using the amf formula.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 1 2005 6:10 AM EDT

Torementor, your last example shows it well.

"Rat cast Antimagic Field on Sixpence (0.25)
Nexus cast Antimagic Field on Sixpence (0.40)
Camera cast Antimagic Field on Sixpence (0.54)
Soldier cast Antimagic Field on Sixpence (0.66)"

From here, I'll assume that Sixpence has a DD level of around 40K.

Your first minion casts at 14K and get's 25% versus 40K DD.
Your second makes your AMF cast at 28K, which works out to be 40% versus 40K.
Your third makes your AMF cast at 42K, which getting a 54% is slightly higher than the DD you face (equal DD versus equal AMF = 50%).
56K versus 40K works out to be 66%.

It's a curve. That's why individual levels seem to add different amounts.

bartjan September 1 2005 6:20 AM EDT

Maybe it helps to understand how this casting work if you either change the order of your minions, or equip a few mage shields on some of your enchanters, and compare those results with what you are seeing now.

AdminShade September 1 2005 6:26 AM EDT

Indeed it is a curve instead of a straight line
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