Since were talking about the NUB (aka how to bring up a dead subject) (in General)


QBRanger September 16 2005 9:54 AM EDT

A couple of points to make:

First, People talk about new players flaying around trying to discover a good strat. Thats totally crud. All they have to do is ask in forums the first couple of days and there are quite a few people who will be more than helpful. Also, if they are lucky to get a good mentor, and use that mentor, they can get a great strategy to begin with.

Second, The reason Mikel did not catch up to my MPR is that Jon took away a few weeks of his NUB due to the glitch about BA purchase costs. However, if there was not a glitch and Mikel would have bought USD to compensate, he would have easily passed me up in MPR. No doubt quite easily.

Third, Whats to stop one of the people, who right now are selling out for USD, to restart with the NUB and all the USD they made from their sellout? With all their USD already made, and the NUB, they will easily get to the top of MPR.

Fourth, With people already over 450k MPR in 1 month with 3 more months of the NUB to go, does anyone really think the NUB is fair to the older players? Well except for a few of the older players (we all know who they are) and the new players that is. I am just over 800k MPR and am growing very slowly now. True as the new players get up in MPR their rewards will go down as they fight equal or down, but it will not be tough for them to get 200k MPR in each of those 3 months. But even with that growth they will easily supercede my MPR easily.

Fifth, With all the support new players can get, which include mentors, chat, forums and friends who introduce them to the game, Why cannot I restart with the NUB and experience stratospheric rewards myself for a change. I think quite of few of the older players would easily do it.

Last, People say that having new players at the top makes the game more interesting. Gives it new blood. That is true to a certain degree, but how fair is it to the people who are near the top. After all this is a RPG of some degree. In any RPG of this type (that is one that does not reset every few months), there will be a sort of pyramid. That is characters at the top who earned/fought their way there. Then other levels of less and less strong characters. The people already there have fought long and hard to get there. And to watch new players, shoot by them at rocket speed is quite discouraging to say the least.

Yes, I understand some incentive needs to be in place to get new players to stay and enjoy cb2. However, the current setup of the NUB is far too much, far too fast. And seeing players with the NUB only use it to sell for USD is quite discouraging. And, yes, im part of that latter problem, I admit it freely.

Nuf said for now.

Derek September 16 2005 10:00 AM EDT

While I agree with most of your points I don't see the link between $US and MPR growth.

Caedmon [Revenge of the Forgers] September 16 2005 10:01 AM EDT

/me started here the first week of January, but took the summer off. Any chance of getting a Returning User Bonus?

(yes, this is a satirical request.)

QBRanger September 16 2005 10:03 AM EDT

Derek,

Its like this.

If you use USD, you can have enough cb2 to buy all the BA.

Also, if you use USD, you can get better items to increase your power, therefore fight higher and get even better rewards.

But in the beginning using USD will allow you to buy all the BA you can maximizing your growth.

AdminG Beee September 16 2005 10:03 AM EDT

Whats to stop one of the people, who right now are selling out for USD, to restart with the NUB...


Perish the thought that we don't have that particular base covered ;)

Derek September 16 2005 10:07 AM EDT

Ok I see your point in that CB2 is needed to buy all BA however one can buy all BA each day and still have plenty of money left from the days fighting for other things without the need for $US.

As far as using CB2 to buy nice equipment and therefore fight "higher", I would've thought that it would be infact beneficial to stay at a low PR for as long as possible (i.e. keep MPR close to PR) because I have been told that as I get closer to the top my rewards will infact get worse as I will be fighting down more.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 16 2005 10:09 AM EDT

O_O

For once I agree 100% with Ranger!

No more needs to be said...

QBsutekh137 September 16 2005 10:14 AM EDT

Yes, GB, you may be on top of things, but in this day and age of broadband with changeable IP addresses (I can change my IP address at home any time I want), one _could_ run through multiple NUBs with the USD sellout. There really is no way to tell unless someone let's themselves get found out.

If I turned off chat, never posted, and only played from home (on a renewed DHCP IP address), how would you stop me from getting the NUB?

Just curious?

Maelstrom September 16 2005 10:14 AM EDT

Not this topic again! Let's see if this will work:

Thread closed.

QBRanger September 16 2005 10:15 AM EDT

Derek,

With a moderate amount of USD you can get a corn, COI, MCM, DB's. All of which will not raise you PR very much but likely will enable you to go a bit higher on your fight list. Possibly enough to make a difference in your rewards.

Or you can go the TOA route and use the "weapon allowance" to get nice weapons and not raise your PR much at all. To get the weapons needed will possibly use USD.

Or you can buy a high level tattoo and use your NUB to raise it to super high levels. Buying a tattoo that large to begin with will likely cause you to need to spend usd.

But IMO the best strat to maximize the NUB is to make a single FB mage and use the ROE till your NUB runs out, then buy a high level FF or TOE and possibly hire an enchanter at the end of the NUB. If I could start over with the NUB, its easily what I would do. All you would need is a corn and a set of DB's. The ROE, corn and DB's will not raise your MPR much at all. Just look at Black Card Situation, copy his strat using the ROE instead of the FF and youll be set for 4 month. Not that tough to do. C enter, C enter for 4 months all the way to the top.

If I could restart and get the current NUB, its quite easy to get to the top in MPR in 4 months given the current rates of growth seen.

QBOddBird September 16 2005 10:20 AM EDT

I suppose this makes me one of the dumber cattle in the herd - I wasted my NUB up until this past 2 weeks, since I couldn't think of a decent strategy and recreated my characters over and over. This was with me starting with a 11 mil NW tat and having played CB1.

OK, I think I made my point. I'm obviously not that bright. Everyone else that starts will create their character, stick with it, and have a winning strategy. Not only that, but they'll decide to spend massive USD on this game within the first few weeks of playing so that they can buy all their (more expensive due to NUB) BA, and will catch up to all the players at the top. Not only that, but they'll make their strategy sooooo good that it can beat all of the top players' strategies. They won't be slowed down when they hit the top, and they won't quit when their NUB expires because of the incredibly reduced rewards.

IMO, even if they do sell out for USD, the CB$ still stays in the game....it just gets moved around to people who are willing to get it...why do you dislike the idea of someone getting to the top and then giving you all their money?

I see your point, but I think you're being entirely too pessimistic about this. I still have my NUB till November, and I'm not going anywhere near the top. Granted there are a few players who catch on to the game quickly, like hellokitty and Mikel, but if they can come up with a good strategy, stick with it, and spend their money wisely, isn't the NUB serving its purpose when they catch up to you? It doesn't put them ahead of ya, it simply puts them in a position to try for the top.

The feeling you really have is that if they haven't played for long, they shouldn't have a chance to try for the top. Obviously the NUB was created so they could. Get over it. If its really too much, Jon'll nerf it down a bit - after all, he's done a pretty good job so far with that. He created the game, watches it to make sure everything stays balanced, and with as many threads about the NUB as there are, don't you think he'd be doing something about it if there was REALLY a problem?

My 2 cents worth.

/me dons a firefighter suit

Tezmac September 16 2005 10:21 AM EDT

.

Derek September 16 2005 10:28 AM EDT

I agree Ranger that using the RoE with the NUB then using $US to buy a whopping big ToA would be lethal, unfortunately I don't have any $US at my disposal. Likewise there is only incentive for NUB users to sell CB2 for $US if there is demand for it. So is the real problem the NUB or the $US-CB2 market?

I still don't think that using $US can make a meaningful difference to MPR growth though. Yes you could use $US to buy a corn and CoI straight away instead of saving for a week but the benefit to MPR would only be small.

Me and labyrinth have about the same MPR however his PR is about twice as high as mine. I could go down the $US route and make a character similar to his - my PR would double but I'm fairly certain my rewards would go down - I would be fighting 1-1.2mil score people with 1.1mil PR compared to 800k to 1mil score people with 550k PR. I think there is a PR range of about 400k - 800k at the moment where rewards are greatest and therefore MPR gain is best in and I intend to stay in that range for as long as possible.

My average xp per fight is about 100 per minion (four minion team. Adjusted for my 151% newbie bonus that works out at 40xp per fight. I'm interested to know your average xp per fight.

QBRanger September 16 2005 10:28 AM EDT

Derek Inivisible:
Created Aug 13th:
Score / PR / MPR: 988,817 / 569,954 / 536,645
According to what I have heard, Derek has the NUB for another 2 months and 25 days.

Ranger The Apocalypse Book:
Created Jan 1:
Score / PR / MPR: 2,055,602 / 1,485,380 / 806,051

Nuff Said.

QBRanger September 16 2005 10:30 AM EDT

For my 3 minion character I average about 38 xp per minion per fight.

Jordan23 September 16 2005 10:30 AM EDT

I dont know why i am talking about NUB again...But one thing.

What the logic?
Giving a NUB to Newbie to stay on the game. I think if you stay on the game its because you like to play CB. I dont understand why giving a NUB will keep those new players on the game or its like giving cigarette to no-smoker to helping them start smoking.

I have CB cancer... Not because i used NUB
Jordan23

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 16 2005 10:33 AM EDT

GentlemanLoser Talhearn
Created January 01, 2005;
Score / PR / MPR: 813,586 / 430,140 / 391,247

Feel my pain...

QBRanger September 16 2005 10:38 AM EDT

GL,

But people will always say that you did not sacrifice sleep for 9 months so you dont deserve to be near the top. You actually lead a life outside of CB, so you dont deserve to be near the top.

However with the NUB you could have just played nonstop for only 1 month and got far higher than you have.

Gee, 9 months of messing around vs 1 month of hardcore playing.

Ill take the 1 month anytime.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 16 2005 10:41 AM EDT

Yup.

Exactly...

Also, 9 months worth of changes, some which totally changed the game. Versus 1.

Anyone want to guess which is easier to deal with?

WeaponX September 16 2005 10:41 AM EDT

i have to admit it really angers me to see people like derek pass me in MPR even though i fight as much or more than them. i do think something should be done for all players not in the top not just the Newbs.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 16 2005 10:43 AM EDT

Oh and btw, I was dispairing compairing myself to Derek and others like ILoveHelloKitty. Not Ranger or the other people that clawed their way to the top before the inclusion of the NUB.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 16 2005 10:46 AM EDT

For clarity;

Battles as Challenger;

Talhearn: 178,131
Invisible: 46,149

Wow! I wasted a lot of time fighting here....

IndependenZ September 16 2005 10:52 AM EDT

Well, I have kept my mouth shut for quite some time but...

I totally agree with Ranger. I understand that the NUB attracts new players, but what about the older players? It's no fun when you fight 6 months with a character just to see a new player catch up with you in barely 4 weeks. A quarter of the fights I fought is enough for them to do it. The game is starting to be dominated by the NUB. Older players can't get more cash than new players (buying CB2 with USD is the only option), they can't get more EXP than new players, they can't get in the top 10 or even on the stats page because it's all going to be overruled by new players... the only reason I'm still playing is that I don't want my efforts go to waste. *whines* "It's just not fair!"

NUB: Now that's what I call age discrimination :p

hzarb September 16 2005 10:56 AM EDT

What I never understood is why NUB doesn't shrink at a much faster rate depending on the amount of challenges one does. That way, NUB can last forever but, in that case, it means that the player isn't fighting enough to ever get near the top. Having NUB in forging also sounds ridiculous to me - many are just forging and selling CB2 for USD and so much for the fighting.I have one friend who's doing only that.At most, have NUB regulated by the amount of BA one uses and leave NUB in forging.

I had NUB when I started, although never had the 156% or 134% NUB that new players seem to be enjoying. In truth, I wasted the first couple of months coz I played sporadically and never bought BA. Still, after starting to play more, I never understood why my NUB had to stay at 80% throughout.

And I'm one of those who started (and stuck) to a arguably poor strat.

QBBarzooMonkey September 16 2005 11:04 AM EDT

"You young kids, with your NUB, have it so easy! Back in my day,see, we had to walk 15 miles in the snow, in bare feet, uphill both ways, just to earn a few measly MPR points! And we liked it!"

Raise your hand if you:
- Are not a CB1 veteran who moved to CB2 at it's inception, thus having the advantage of experience with the game, in general; and
- Nonetheless, started CB2 early on (Jan/Feb/March) before the NUB; and
- Are still here, slugging it out, and obviously enjoying yourself (or you wouldn't still be here), without the benefit of either of those "advantages"; and
- Are so tired of the battle back and forth between both of the aforementioned parties that you want to just scream "just make the complaining about NUB stop!"; but
- on the other hand, feel slighted because you are watching players with NUB fly past you in a month, especially since you know you'll most likely never achieve that upper echelon level for the simple fact that even thogh you play very consistently and steadily, your own personal reality doesn't allow for you to play hardcore 24/7.

I have a feeling I'm part of a "silent majority" with this generalized opinion...

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] September 16 2005 11:17 AM EDT

I'm on the side of, "If You Don't Like It Enough To Constantly Complain You Know Where The Door Is".

How many times do we have to go over this? We aren't here to benefit the top people, this is meant to be a dynamic game with users coming and going all the time and it is more beneficial for Jon if most new players stay and buy supportership than if Jon removed the NUB only the guys at the top and mid-level guys who don't even play all of their BA who were complaining so much about it stayed.

Finally, to quote Jon, "If a player stays here as long as their NUB lasts then they are already here for the community rather than just the NUB"
which is basically why you Scrooges and moaners are still here, if it really did bother you that much you wouldn't be playing. Stop trying to get attention with these repetitive posts!

QBRanger September 16 2005 11:18 AM EDT

JuJu,

You raise some very valid points.

Let me address them.

First I started in cb1 in Dec 2004, about 3 weeks before cb2 came out. So I was in fact a noob in cb2 when I joined it. I was flaying around trying to find a good strat for a while in cb2. Started with a EEMM team before I made the TOA change. Guess what, I still play cb1 and enjoy it very much, even without the NUB I never had in that game.

I am enjoying cb2 for now. But, seeing a few new players who are going to pass me like I am crawling, does diminsh that enjoyment. Don't let anyone tell you differently, but those that like to fight enjoy beating the snot out of others. For me, and many others, its about being the top, best character. I will not deny that aspect of the game for me. But also, the forums and chat do play a large role for me.

The back and forth about the NUB is just since the NUB is just so unfair to all those who stayed with the game throughout all the changes made in the 9 months since cb2 started. You were not here then, but the game now is far different then the game back then.

And, yes, I will feel very slighted/upset when a noob passes me in MPR. I have fought the most battles as challenger (yes I have no life) and to watch someone shoot by me (and yes, with the NUB as it currently is its a matter of time) is quite depressing.

On the other hand, if I was a new player with the NUB, I would do everything/post anything to try to keep it. After all, if I would catch the highest players in 1/4th the time with less effort compared to them, why not do it. And at the same time, get massive rewards all the better. Hell, if I could start WoW or Evercrack and get to the top in 3 months, I would pay my monthly fee and kick some serious butt. However, I realize thats not fair to those who already put their time in the game up to that point.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] September 16 2005 11:20 AM EDT

That is EXACTLY what i said 3 months ago about the NUB about how its not fair to Vets who have been here since day 1 to be passed up like it was nothing just because some nub has the NUB...

Example:
My fights challenged - 100,000 .......My MPR - 400,000
NUB fights challegned - 15,000.......His MPR - 400,000

Somethings wrong with that....Seems like alot of worthless fighting on my part...


But all i got was a HUGE flaming... I'll even find the thread where i said all this and post it...

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] September 16 2005 11:29 AM EDT

smallpau1, July 6 2005 3:34 PM EDT

i will compare it to RL in the fact that i wasted 3 months to build up a char then start over and spend 4 months on a char, and then get passed up by a nub whos been here 1 month....i wasted 7 months. Right now i would honestly like to get reset (only if i receive the NUB) and start over just to catch up since i know the game...

I would rather spend 1 month to get to the same place i would be at in 7 months.....*sigh*

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

smallpau1, July 6 2005 3:39 PM EDT

Mikel:
Challenged - 25,741 battles

Smallpau1:
Challenged - 118,445 battles

And he beats me...

insane? I think so...=/

Part-time Barman September 16 2005 11:34 AM EDT

Zog wrote "which is basically why you Scrooges and moaners are still here, if it really did bother you that much you wouldn't be playing. Stop trying to get attention with these repetitive posts"

Is it that black and white?

I don't like the NUB, but I still play.
It bothers me, but I still play.

If you're so bored of people commenting on the NUB,
I suggest you refrain from clicking on the thread,
thereby saving yourself the anguish of reading it all over again

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] September 16 2005 11:36 AM EDT

I invite you to actually read my statement again.
I remember typing "It obviously doesn't bother you 'that' much"
It may bother people but if it was that bad they wouldn't be wasting their time with post after post which Jon has already personally rejected but instead leave.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] September 16 2005 11:37 AM EDT

And hey, I'm complaining about the NUB and guess what.

I DONT PLAY!! i forge now, when i even sign on.

QBBarzooMonkey September 16 2005 11:37 AM EDT

Ranger -

I pretty much agree with you, and the only rebuttal that I have is that I started Jan. 28th, early enough so I have been here through all of the changes. I did take a month off mid May - mid June, but I have basically been here since early on.
My point is, at least for me, and I suspect for others as well, although I may be unique in this opinion after all, is that the positives I get from my CB2 experience outweigh the negative that is the NUB enough to keep me here without even considering selling out or otherwise quitting and/or starting over.
I'd be just as happy as you to see the NUB adjusted or nerfed, but I'm not holding my breath and not holding it against CB2, either.

Part-time Barman September 16 2005 11:41 AM EDT

I stand corrected.

Unless it bothers me "that" much, I should not comment.
I forget the rules of forums sometimes.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] September 16 2005 11:45 AM EDT

I have never said that something cannot be brought up but search forums for thread titles with NUB and see how out of hand this is especially once Jon has already shown his personal view.
I agree that people should be allowed to complain about aspects of the game (I have done so myself in the past) but once Jon has already said "shut up and put up or go" then I think that should be the time posts about that complaint stop or am I being naive in thinking that once the creator of a game has dismissed a complaint so strongly as he has that we wont be able to get it changed?

QBRanger September 16 2005 11:45 AM EDT

Zog,

I made this post to show the general community what is going on with the NUB. If you look on the left side of the page it says "forums". To me thats a place to discuss and yes, argue about points of the game.

Its obvious Jon loves the NUB. However, most of the older players certainly do not. But, as in the past, when there has been a great unbalance in the game, Jon has corrected it. I am pointing out yet another imbalance.

As CT did with the dex on TOA's. Or I did a while back with the TOE's. Or as the community did with Monty. Or as someone else did with the NUB and BA purchase price. Etc.. Etc..

As stated by many people, if this post is offense to anyone, then don't read it.

Special J September 16 2005 11:46 AM EDT

I don't player CB to win, mostly due to the fact that I know I will never actualy "win". And what I lack is not a NUB, what I lack is knowledge early on and the drive to be on top.

I play CB for the conversations with others who play.

Relic September 16 2005 12:16 PM EDT

This subject (The NUB) will never be dead as long as players like Ranger and myself have a problem with players zooming past us like we are standing still.

We both log in as much if not more than most players and fight lots o' battles and what do we have to show for it when a Newb puts in 1/10 or less effort and gets 200% return.

I average about 35 exp per minion per battle. Not only is my character growing at that rate, but my Tattoo is also growing at that rate. Newbs can take little Tattoos, and in a matter of just a few months have HUGE tattoos. That alone is a major problem imo. They can do that a couple times within their NUB period and sell off the character(s) with a mondo tattoo attached.

To be a top player I think most would agree that it requires a very sizeable tattoo, and it seems like the Newbs are being handed that aspect of the game on a silver platter as well as huge MPR.

The RoE was a nice addition to the game, but should not be able to be used in connection with the NUB imo. Non-NUB players have caught up to my characters easily with the use of the RoE.

Also, one last point, if the NUB does stay around (which it most likely will), I suggest we make it available to all players and call it the NCB or New Character Bonus as has been suggested in previous discussion threads. That way any player can start a new character and have the potential of being a top player with that character. The "old school" players are being penalized for their "old school" status by not being able to take advantage of all aspects of the game. Add into that the fact that a large part of "old school" players are supporters 1x or more over.

Phew, ok I am done for now. :)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 16 2005 12:20 PM EDT

I think the truth is Ranger, you are going to have to get passed before anything is done. Until at the very least your MPR is bested, I don't see Jon fixing anything, he certainly doesn't care about us lazy folks opinion on the NUB, but you folks up top (who have don't ALL the work) need to be clear on where the NUB should take people...is it to #1? or #11? I think #21 would be about right...most of the nub think it's pointed strait at #1...they may be right.

QBRanger September 16 2005 12:25 PM EDT

Personally I think the NUB should take you to the point where you get 7 BA regen. For some reason that is, IMO, a high MPR character and probably thought of by others as the same. I do forget the point exactly where 7 BA regen starts.

From there on, people should have to play to get higher.

Remember I fight down for almost all my battles, so eliminate the top 10 exemption and over time, with better rewards, those characters lower than me will slowly catch up. Over time, like the time I and other have already put into the game.

QBsutekh137 September 16 2005 12:32 PM EDT

So let's summarize.

I think we can all understand why the NUB exists, and would even agree that it has benefits.

The issue seems to be with the length of time and/or extent of rewards of the NUB.

Jonathan, if someone is over 500K MPR and is only half way through their NUB, surely something is amiss? And we are talking MPR -- the hardest thing to gain in the game, and the most meaningful in the long-term. You have said before that the NUB allows people to "make a competitive run for the top"...that is not a run for the top -- that IS the top. And it seems far from competitive. Topping out over someone who has the most battles challenged in the game in four months time doesn't feel right.

Add on GL's spot-on point about the NUB period having to deal with fewer changes (for example, starting now would avoid the the big changes like NW/PR linkage, Archery "nerf", and various tattoo changes). Condensing the power of fighting for 9 months into less than half that does seem patently absurd at this point. When CB2 is two years old, even if you up the NUB period to 6 months, that will mean all that play time can be condensed into 25% of the time.

This will only get worse.

By the way, a disclaimer: I gave up on the top spot months ago, when I sold Cougars (actually gave up a couple months before that). Not because of the NUB, because I just lost interest. So, I am trying to say that I am not whining or biased here. The NUB seems flawed in its degree. People throwing around figures and character comparisons aren't whiners. They are saying, "Dear Lord, look at these numbers and extrapolate. Then cry. This is crazy."

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] September 16 2005 12:44 PM EDT

Hehe glad to see this dead horse is up and running again. I seem to recall Jon saying that camping was here to stay and guess what it has gone. I also seem to remember that after an early query concerning the NUB in the changelog thread about the amount of BA we can buy being doubled that Jon said that is how it is supposed to be, then hey presto later on the NUB price to purchase BA gets increased.
For me the ever increasing NUB makes a mockery of the game (and encourages rampant cheating), just my opinion, I think its a fair idea but this implementation sucks.

Biscuitback September 16 2005 1:13 PM EDT

well i'm with ranger on this one too. I haven't said a word about this yet except sometimes in the chat room.

i was curious about one thing... maybe the NUB is really meant for more or less this time next year? lets say this time next year ranger has 1.5 mil mpr... the people now joining won't really have a chance to be #1 then... right? maybe Jon should have done this NUB thing then.
i know some of you are saying that we wouldn't have these new people playing if it wasn't for the NUB... but almost everyone of us who posted here just about started without a NUB..

i think i might have made that last part confusing, but i do think there shouldn't even be a NUB.. cb1 never had it, and the people who were vets in cb1 never had it here.

QBJohnnywas September 16 2005 1:28 PM EDT

I don't quite know where I stand on this. I'll make my usual point - the fact that I got my char up into the higher ranks from the end of March to now, with no USD, no NUB, just fighting hard. So it is possible to climb without it, it's just harder.

Most players who climb fast have done so with some advantage or other that is not available to all players. Those of us old enough to take advantage of paypal and the power of the USD; the campers (RIP) and those who buy a large character. The latter annoys me far more than the NUB. Somebody has built a character and sweated over it and then WHAM sold to the highest bidder who can now play with the big boys with no effort whatsoever. Ok, you need to know what you're doing, you then need to fight LOTS but still.. that annoys me far far more than any bonus to new players....

QBOddBird September 16 2005 1:41 PM EDT

I like Glory's idea best. New players should have a chance to catch up to the older ones. Older players dislike being passed like they are standing still - so just make it a New Character Bonus and give it to everyone. =)

I vote for Glory as having come up with the best idea in the thread, and without putting a lot of complaints stashed around it where it couldn't be seen.

And as I said before, if it gets too bad, Jon nerfs or adjusts it. It always happens. An excellent idea is to stop complaining and watch and see what he does. If he nerfs it, it was too much. "VV007", you got what you wanted. If it isn't nerfed, it obviously is not as big of a deal as you are making of it.

sssimmo September 16 2005 2:00 PM EDT

Firstly: I totally agree with Ranger. Even though he used the word 'easily' more easily than the word easily should be easily used. But I think it helped get his point accross as strong as he wished.

Secondly: I want to reiterate that 'some incentive needs to be in place to get new players to stay and enjoy cb2'

Deceptively Massive
Score / PR / MPR: 841,606 / 468,184 / 337,032

Thats my character. I have put 20 times (at least) more time into CB than any of the newbies, who have received NUB, above me. Plus I have put even more time and money (to Jon only) into CB1. If I was Ranger, Bast or Almuric etc. I would feel 'let down' that someone can put 1/100th amount of time into this game compared to myself and be close in mpr. I'm not speaking for them, I am just stating how I would feel if I were in their shoes.

Ps. My football team lost their preliminary final tonight and I have been on the sauce. I will clarify if I agree with myself in the morning!

Good afternoon, good evening and goodnight.

Quark September 16 2005 2:04 PM EDT

Except a new character bonus shouldn't be as good as the NUB since the NUB is for noobs who don't have the experience involved in a restart. I'm working on my second character past 200k MPR and it's much smoother now. If I had a new character bonus I would have it down pretty slick. (And even kitty & Mikel have had to rejig their strats.

TrueDevil [AAA] September 16 2005 2:04 PM EDT

Oh no, my thread is being beaten by ranger's. =/

Anyway, I'm going to post another bad point about NUB which I've already posted in my thread. (just in case people didn't see it before).

"I'm surprised that some people like Glory, Chocolate Thunder haven't posted here because from what I saw in the FS/WTB forum, they're trying to sell character and those characters seem worthless. 377 k MPR character, highest bid so far is 700 k, Number 14 biggest MPR in the game, only 2.5 mil.

According to Tormentor, he can get 500 k per day after buying all BA, maybe 600-700 k clean without buying BA if he plays a lot, so 4-7 days to have the 14th Biggest MPR in the game ? okayyy then. "

QBRanger September 16 2005 2:34 PM EDT

I think the biggest problem with a new character bonus equalling the nub is:

Imagine taking my items, including my corn and DBs and restarting with such a bonus.

I can see why the no restart rule is in place but as it currently is it too overpowerful.

One has to realize this when most of the older players are willing to ditch their experienced characters to get the NUB. It should not be that overwhelming that most high level players would restart with the NUB if they could. I have had such discussions with other older players. That alone should speak volumnes about how out of wack it is.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 16 2005 2:38 PM EDT

G, I don't see the problem. A New Player would start a character, possilbe make it terrible, get to know the game, then start another with a fresh NCB.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 16 2005 2:43 PM EDT

Yup. I'd ditch (although I'd hate to lose a character created on Jan 1st...) My account for a new one with a NUB.

Of course, I'd 'sell' all my gear to someone I trust first for GBP, then buy it all back from him with my new character... >;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 16 2005 2:44 PM EDT

Third!

But, a simple solution to that would be limiting the effective size of items to your MPR, just like tattoos....

QBOddBird September 16 2005 2:55 PM EDT

I don't like the idea of limiting the effective size of your items to your MPB, as that would remove the tank's only advantage over the mage...

Jordan23 September 16 2005 3:14 PM EDT

If i have the option of putting all my cb stuff in the garbage for having a new account,i'll do it right now but its agains the rules. So i have no chance to be top 10 in NW,top 10 in MPR and of course top10 in PR.
I will always be on the loser side, except for CP.

Grim Reaper September 16 2005 3:30 PM EDT

people that will hit the top with NUB will fall back down once the regular top 10 catch up to them because the players with NUB will run out of it and decide to quit or not play as much which will mean the regulars will catch up on them very very quickly.

Jordan23 September 16 2005 3:32 PM EDT

Does Mikel quit playing?

Grim Reaper September 16 2005 3:36 PM EDT

I played many games where a player hits the top as in #1 and just quits playing because they are satisfied. If a player here just hits into the top ten mpr then sure, they will keep playing without nub or maybe just forge instead of fight. Point is to stay in the top 10 and to reach the top 10 is different.

LumpBot September 16 2005 3:56 PM EDT

I'd like to point out 2 things.

1) NW, the NUB will have a tough time catching up NW wise since they haven't played as long. This gives older players a big advantage. I know they make more money, but not near enough to compete NW wise.

2) You keep talking about single minion with an RoE. These kind of strats sound good, but they lose a lot. Mage teams in general gain PR slower because they just don't kill higher PR than themselves well. I have a tough time with my mage team against higher PR.

I think that you guys are looking at a worst possible scenerio, no one has caught up to the number 1 spot, after recent changes, I believe NUB will become less and less effective UNLESS they have previous CB game experience which would make them a multi, or they have a ton of USD to blow which seems pretty uncommon.

Wasp [Demon Forging] September 16 2005 4:02 PM EDT

Can I just add that I have spent a good few months getting my char to where it is, which is just over 300k mpr, but that isn't an achievment as a new player can take 1 month of his time and pass that. I find it offensive that a new player can outgrow someone so quickly. Instead of having to "work" for better rewards they get it handed out to them on a plate. Surely there is another way to give a new player a bonus!? One that doesn't cause outrage. One that doesn't cause all theses threads.

I personally feel like leaving this account and starting a new one with a new name. 1 month down the line I will be even stronger then what I would be then if i stayed with this account! I feel like i'm wasting my time? Hows that, a bonus that makes players feel like their wasting their time, i'm sure other people feel the same!? Blimey, this NUB is pathetic.

Sort It Out.

AdminJonathan September 16 2005 4:17 PM EDT

in other words, you can't expect to be near the top just because you started earlier than someone. if he works harder than you, the NUB allows him to pass you.

seems fair to me.

QBRanger September 16 2005 4:19 PM EDT

Wasp,
Your problem is that you discovered cb too early. You should have discovered it last month when all the kinks have been worked out AND when effective strats have come to light. In the beginning of CB2, there was chaos on the use of tattoos, their effective strategic use, and which tattoo works with and versus a strat. Now that most of us have learned via a trial by fire, the new players get to reap the uber rewards.

Sounds fair to me :(

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 16 2005 4:20 PM EDT

Jon, how in any way is 46,149 battles challenged working harder than 178,131?


AdminJonathan September 16 2005 4:26 PM EDT

if you use 50% of your BA and I use 110%, I am working harder.

longer != harder

Relic September 16 2005 4:31 PM EDT

Challenges are challenges Jonathan whether over 10 months or 2 months. A new player may have a spurt of non-stop battling for a while, but the disparagement is when then click enter hundreds of thousands of times less (less time) and reap the same and (almost always with the NUB) more rewards. Also keep in mind that a NUB can get a solid strat right from the start and can stick with it, how many existing old players have had to tweak their strats numerous times in accordance with the game changes? 1 month of dedicated battling should not equate to 10 months of dedicated/semi-dedicated battling imo.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] September 16 2005 4:31 PM EDT

But when taking a vets average fights compared to a NUB user, and the vet still has a higher fight/day ratio, thats not working harder...

Relic September 16 2005 4:32 PM EDT

And to further my point, NUB allows very easy strat changes whereas existing players take a major hit when changing strats.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] September 16 2005 4:33 PM EDT

lol, Ranger if you use 95% of your BA for 2 years and someone comes along and uses 96% of theirs for 4 months they have worked harder and deserve to beat you, sorry.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 16 2005 4:36 PM EDT

"if you use 50% of your BA and I use 110%, I am working harder."

Over the same timescale yes.

Let's assume eveyone has 100,000 possible BA a month. In 9 months I've used 450,000.

A Nuw user that has been here for maybe 2 months and used 110% of their BA allocation (220,000) surpasses my efforts while using under half the BA I have has not worked as hard as I have to get where I am.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] September 16 2005 4:37 PM EDT

as i said in my post in July i changed chars early on, cuz my original was messed up because nobody had a concrete strat, so i started over later on with a good one. But still started before the NUB or just as the NUB started. And 2-3 months later i get passed up and beaten by NUB users in a matter of 2 days for some.

AdminJonathan September 16 2005 4:37 PM EDT

if you think someone who works even 1% harder than ranger doesn't deserve to pass him, you're playing the wrong game

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] September 16 2005 4:39 PM EDT

"if you use 50% of your BA and I use 110%, I am working harder."

So whats the point of the NUB here? Seems with those numbers that people who use 110% of their BA as opposed to 50%, of course they'll catch upwithout the NUB. So why implement an even higher reward to help it that much more?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 16 2005 4:39 PM EDT

That's fine, but let them work 1 percent harder for a long as Ranger has had to put that effort in.

AdminJonathan September 16 2005 4:44 PM EDT

the whole point is to allow new players who work as hard or harder as the top players to take their natural place in a reasonable amount of time.

(as long as ranger has been playing) = (as long as CB2 has been alive) becomes unreasonable at a linear rate, no matter where you place your definition of "reasonable."

the alternative would be to reset CB2 every N months and I don't think anyone wants that.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] September 16 2005 4:46 PM EDT

If you think that I believe someone that has used 1% more BA over 4 months than Ranger has for the duration of CB2 has worked harder in any way you don't understand my post.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] September 16 2005 4:48 PM EDT

With this type of game (and I've played a lot of games) the NUB is really the designer wanting to have his cake and eat it :P

QBRanger September 16 2005 4:49 PM EDT

Jon,
Please refer to Derek's character and his prior posts. He even freely admits not using near 100 percent of his BA. But he is already 535k MPR. That is after 1 month!

With my MPR just at 810k he is already 66 percent to the top.

Now, true, I did retrain a bit and fire a minion, so let's say I would be at 900k without that. Still he is over 60 percent the after 1 month. Or use Bast for a basis. She never fired a minion and almost never retrained. She has missed occasional BA due to vacations but has played over 90 percent of her BA. Should Derek, at using 90 percent BA usage pass Bast or me at our level of usage. After all, I think my BA usage and Bast's uasge per month is close to Derek's.

Ilovehellokitty September 16 2005 4:52 PM EDT

he doesn't have 1million lvl toa either.

i am going to drink some whine and eat some cheese. Bye~

Ilovehellokitty September 16 2005 4:53 PM EDT

i meant *wine* it was a typo

QBBarzooMonkey September 16 2005 4:54 PM EDT

<sarcasm>Look, all you older players, thank you for your hard work in research & development. Now take your "20 year gold watch" and retire quietly while the new, pretty young faces take over.</sarcasm>

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 16 2005 4:56 PM EDT

(Not a dig at Ilovehellokitty, just trying to silence the inevitable person that will accuse someone in this thread of whining...)

From out good friends at www.dictionary.com;

Whine

1) To utter a plaintive, high-pitched, protracted sound, as in pain, fear, supplication, or complaint.
2) To complain or protest in a childish fashion.
3) To produce a sustained noise of relatively high pitch: jet engines whining.

QBsutekh137 September 16 2005 4:58 PM EDT

Jonathan, 1% _in total_ Someone using a tad more BA for four months vs heavy BA usage for a year should not, in my opinion, give the new person the top spot.

Look at the limiting case here...what do you anticipate the NUB window length extending to when CB is 3-4 years old? Still 4 months? 6 months? So several months of essentially fighting the way Ranger has for 4 years (and still would be) will mean that person will be equal to him?

I am all for lessening the advantages of longevity to some extent -- I really am. I am not, however, a fan of eliminating them entirely. Are you? Being here a while means absolutely _nothing_? Your NUB scheme also does not address the concepts of "work" (number of battles) or changes (which a veteran has to endure more of over time than a sprinting new player). Care to comment? A long time back, I (and someone before me, Vestax, I believe) tried to alleviate the work part of it by suggesting a different NUB scheme where a new player still needs to click all the same battles (they are just allowed more of them in a shorter time period). You said, "not interested".

But at least that concept SCALES with time. More time passes, the more the new player has to fight to catch up...they are simply allowed to do so in a shorter time to make up for "showing up late" to the party.

Or, consider the other side of the coin...where you DO lengthen the NUB window. For example, say when CB is three years old you up the window to a year. That's an awfully long NUB. Kind of defeats the whole purpose of letting the new guys catch up quickly, doesn't it?

So, for this to work, the NUB period will always have to remain relatively short. It will get to the point where a new player could come in, play hard for 4 months, then sell all CB cash and character for $100 or so (probably more, depending on the economy. I pledge to you, when that point is reached, I will be changing my IP address and PayPal address at home every four months and fleecing this bad boy for all I can take. An extra Benjamin every four months? You bet!

Finally, let's compare to other games...how much revenue do you think Sony would lose on Everquest if right now they started a "new user bonus" that gave great equipment and experience growth to new players? Experience that would let them equal the TOP SPOTS. Do you think the 4-5 year veterans (who would have invested serious amounts of cash in subscription fees alone at that point) would say, "Great! You started later, you should go ahead and catch up!" I'm guessing not.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] September 16 2005 4:59 PM EDT

Take your unbelievable outrecuidance elsewhere.

QBRanger September 16 2005 5:08 PM EDT

And one has to keep in mind other points:.

In Feb when people hit 100k MPR, we at that time were fighting other 100k MPR characters getting average rewards with our 100k TOJ's.

Now a 100k MPR character can equip a 150k FF and fight 2-300k MPR/score "forgotten" characters who just sit around like farms. There, at the same level I was back then, their rewards without the NUB are greater than mine ever were. Now add the NUB AND a ROE and whammo, insta powerhouse.

Remember, there was no tattoo artist till mid March and no ROE till recently. So until the TA people were using the underpowered TOJ.

Also, when I started, you could not buy a high level tattoo to help out since we were levelling them. Now, they are easy to find under 300k in level.

So besides the NUB, there are many other ways for new players to close the MPR gap. Add in the NUB and it accelerates it far too much far too quickly.

AdminJonathan September 16 2005 5:11 PM EDT

sutekh,

a new player who gets to the top with NUB and then burns out because he can't hack the changes that come along won't remain at the top. remember, nothing magical keeps you at the top after you get there, you still have to work just as hard to keep your edge.

as for commercial MMOs, the cases aren't parallel. Or rather, they are, more so than you think. :) All of those have a level cap, which is precisely another way of guaranteeing that new players can catch up in a relatively short amount of months (but one that would fit CB poorly).

ranger,

don't panic about the dereks of CB. watch the PR graph; it is harder to gain that last 34% for a number of reasons. his curve is already noticeably slowing down. and don't forget your MPR will be higher in 3 months, too.

QBsutekh137 September 16 2005 5:14 PM EDT

Good points, and with the reduction in NUB in Changelog, I can see things settling down.

I do, however, still worry about the limiting cases as CB grows older and older...

flamewind September 16 2005 5:35 PM EDT

Just a question, does the NUB take in effect the MPR in relation to the highest MPR?

Wasp [Demon Forging] September 16 2005 5:35 PM EDT

"in other words, you can't expect to be near the top just because you started earlier than someone. if he works harder than you, the NUB allows him to pass you. "

If we have both fought the same amount of battles, I don't believe one person has earned the right to be ahead of another. However, if s/he fought more battles then me, I have no problem with them being ahead of me. The NUB allows it to be handed to them on a shiny, silver lined platter.

AdminJonathan September 16 2005 5:44 PM EDT

those who resent giving new players the chance to achieve the position they would hold had they started with the vets are doomed to disappointment.

leave or grow up, wasp.

[EG] Almuric September 16 2005 6:03 PM EDT

"The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"

Am I the only 'Vet' who likes the NUB? We need more fresh blood up here at the top. My favorites list is getting stale. Fighting the same people over and over again is growing old. I'm fighting people I lose against just to bring some variety to my gaming experience.

Has it escaped anyone's attention that so far the only person to use the NUB to get to the top is Mikel? And he didn't exactly make it all the way to the top. He's up here with the rest of us poor shlubs, waiting for Ranger to blink or Dawg to sell out.

All you people whinging about being passed: "Why haven't you been fighting?!?" Did you not realize that the only way to get to the top is by fighting 16 hours a day and buying all your BA?

Giving new people a chance to get to the top is only fair. Or perhaps we could do like WoW and cap people at, say, 1 mil MPR. What exactly would there be for people to do at that point?

(Notice I didn't say whining - it's 'whinging'. There's a difference. ;P )

Grim Reaper September 16 2005 6:08 PM EDT

my NUB dropped from 142 to 112

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 16 2005 6:13 PM EDT

;)

That there is!!

"To complain or protest, especially in an annoying or persistent manner."

Al, I'd love to meet you at the top! ;) If only until I burn out.

Grim Reaper September 16 2005 6:15 PM EDT

yea but how can 142 * .85 be 112 when it comes out to 120.7

QBRanger September 16 2005 6:19 PM EDT

OK,

Let me recap for Almuric.

Derek: 535k MPR after only 1 month of the NUB with over 2 months 25 days left (before the recent changelog when my post first came out).

Ranger: 810k MPR after 9 1/2 months of near constant fighting.

Yes I am all in favor of new blood at the top, but people like Derek and Ilovehellokitty will crush the MPR of the top players at the rate they are going, esp using a ROE with the NUB. Imagine Derek in a top 3 clan.

I think/know most like the NUB as an idea but believe its wrong the amount it is now. Also we believe that it should be available to anyone who wants to restart to be fair to all.

AdminJonathan September 16 2005 6:19 PM EDT

read more than the first sentence of the changelog, please

...

QBsutekh137 September 16 2005 6:26 PM EDT

Almuric, if you notice, nowhere in any of my discussion points did I complain about getting passed. I couldn't possibly care less about that point on a personal level.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] September 16 2005 7:20 PM EDT

No, Al, you are not the only one. The difference seems to be between those who like actual competition, and those who profess to like competition but really like winning. We get less exercised about perceived "threat" since we see it as mere "competition".

It's kind of like inferring from the way the game is designed and managed that Jonathan actively seeks "balance" in the game, then starting threads for the discussion of perceived imbalances in the game. As compared to looking at the design and intent of the game and choosing, instead, to expatiate endlessly in one's own self-interest, like (say, just for instance) if one is going on vacation for a week and is concerned about being able to argue for "I play obsessively and I have a headstart, thus I should be guaranteed supremacy" after the fact.

QBRanger September 16 2005 7:30 PM EDT

Bast,

Next post, you can simply use my name when attacking me.

You have really never understood my goal for the game or why I truely play it. It does amuse me when you post as you do though. I do need a good laugh now and then.

Jerk September 16 2005 7:31 PM EDT

Lol I am just completely amazed that this discussion keeps coming up again and again. I am an ex NUB and I got well into the top 10. Now I see other NUB's coming along that have started after myself and I can only sit there and say to myself that I am looking forward to throwing some fire at them when they get within range. I am by no means afraid of the NUB's of today nor will I be in 3 months when the NUB is 300% for 6 months or whatever it will be by then. It is kinda sad that some of the veterans are still complaining about this instead of just either dealing with it or just leaving.

QBRanger September 16 2005 7:36 PM EDT

Raijin,

Spoke just like someone who used the NUB to get to the top 10. Instead of playing for the months us "older" players did, you took the shortcut to the top and now profess out how great it was.

Lets just see how you feel in 1 year when you have been burning tons of BA, and then a few new players come and in 3 months blow by you in MPR. You'll certainly say "no problem I welcome it", but lets just see in a year, shall we.

Jerk September 16 2005 7:41 PM EDT

lol ok and in a year when I am what 1.5 million MPR and then the elders of today are still hanging around in the top 10 then ya I would gladly welcome a new face to fight with it gets boring seeing the same names in my favs list and same names as the ones that have beat me in recent battles. I mean jeez how boring can you make this game if you are completely content on grinding it out day in and day out waiting for the next complain month ( sorry thats a typo should have said change month) and only fighting the same ppl.

[Tranquility]-USDForger [Azn Forgesmith] September 16 2005 7:42 PM EDT

I waited a while for this...100th post woooth

QBsutekh137 September 16 2005 7:53 PM EDT

Yeah, it is clear that Ranger must be full of hot air. I am sure Jonathan reduced the NUB effectiveness just to shut him up *smile*.

Bast, you are so far out of line I cannot even begin to...begin. But I shall try, nonetheless.

Early in the game, many of us "whinged" on and on about how large ToJs were getting. This went on for multiple weeks, and many threads had the standard, "lol...get used to it people, this is Jon's game, just stop whining!!!!!11"

Eventually, the posts became very pertinent. Almuric joined the fray with hard numbers and well-reasoned arguments/extrapolations, and Jonathan actually uttered an "oh dear" as he fixed the problem that we had been "beating like a dead horse" for weeks.

If you think bringing up things we perceive as imbalances (yes, "we", not "Bast" or even "Jonathan"...we are entitled to our opinions too) is wrong, then stop reading forums. You might find that to be easier. I have brought up things I think are imbalanced, unfair, bugs, or wishes since I started CB 28 months ago. I have paid for changes, I have been right about things, and I have been very, dreadfully wrong about things. I was never rude or cruel about it, only persistent. In other words, I've been a fairly standard human being. I am afraid there are no amount of veiled insults or condescending remarks you can make to change that. Though I welcome you to try.

(Might want to start a new thread if you decide to go that route...I'm bound to get garrulous. *smile*)

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] September 16 2005 8:30 PM EDT

Since i don't fight anymore, i dont need it, but back then i wish i could have been reset to receive the NUB just to be "fair". And if Jon allows it to be where the people who joined before the NUB came along could be reset to use the NUB then I'm all for it and i may even come back to fighting on cb2. I highly doubt seeing that happen so I'm content on just seeing how this uber stat booster for nub's turns out.

[T]Vestax September 16 2005 8:36 PM EDT

It's taken me all this time to make a post in this thread. Basically because I've been spending way too much time trying to just read it all. I even had to stop and reply to other threads just to give myself a break. Coming to the end of the post I realize there is nothing I want to add to it. Or at least nothing I would like to have ignored only 5 posts later.

I will thanks Sutek for pointing out one of my previous ideas that I have long given up because I see now that letting people catch up with simply more BA is simply a bad idea. 1) Extra server load 2) Unbalanced clan point fixes 3) Exponentially growing BA usage leaving few conscience player left to fight.

As for my latest idea I would also like to thank Sutek again for pointing out it's flaw. That for now it would be fine to extend the NUB's time because for now it would only mean it would be extended to like 9 months. But when 3 years comes by it means the new player will have to play up until CB's 6th year, which may just turn into an unlikely event.

Glory's problem has been addressed long ago by pointing out that; if it was just a simple restart then abuse would become rampant.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 18 2005 10:18 AM EDT

I don't want to create another Thread on the NUB, so I'm going to post my thoughts here.

1) Is it 'fair' that a new player starting now, without some kind of help will not be able to ever reach the top spots through playing? Obviously not, this situation would also stunt CB s growth, as new people would sign up, play for a little while, figure out thy could in effect go nowhere, and move on to other things.

2) Is it 'fair' that to allow a new player starting now, that chance to make it into the top spots, they are rewarded more for doing less, than people who have invested a lot of time and effort into thier CB characters. Again, obviously not. This leads to jaded and disgruntled existing players, which again would stunt the growth of CB. New people join, existing people leave.

I think the underlying problem behind this is how the reward system currently works. Before balance changes, we've already had a 1 Mil single hit done, there is a player nearing 1 Mil MPR and has reached over 2 Mil score. All in under a year.

Quite frankly, CB2 is progressing too fast. And before long, I would be very surprised if a re scale isn't initiated to setled this.

I've been against the NUB since it's inception and against the Top Ten exemption.

Remove both of these, and you start to even the playing field for all fighters. As has been pointed out to me, maybe a +/- 5 xp per battle difference won't be enough to let lower players catch the top anyway. So make the penalty biger.

Make rewards for the top players less than those below them. Make it exceptionally hard to stay in the number one place. Maybe even go so far as to tie a penlty into the BA refresh rate. When you hit 9/10 you earn less than those at 10/10 and so on.

Apart from Runescape (which I've never played) I have never seen another P&P or CG RPG reward without penalty, fighting people weaker than you. This happens to a lesser extent at al levels of play bar the top ten. The nuber one spot has the biggest xp, weapon, best strategy or any combination of those three. They just shouldn't be challenged as much by those smaller than them and therefore should not get as much xp.

A reward system like this will help everyone aim for the top, and make it a dymanic battle to stay there. You burn out, you can always start another character and build your way up there again, knowing there is a system in place that will reward your effort.

New faces would fight thier way to the top, giving those they pass access to better rewards. The game becomes more fluid and less stagnent.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] September 18 2005 11:02 AM EDT

I am with Almuric here!

I'm not a top player, far from it in fact but I am getting extremely fed up of the elitist 'I started first' concepts.
I am all for the NUB, have never had it and get passed by 50% of new players but hell it gives my fight list a change quite often meaning I face more variations on strats and have to occassionally do something with mine.
What would this game be without competition? We would be as close to going back to CB1 Spid-ruling as humanly possible with the current system and if I do remember correctly Jon did actually create CB2 and put all this stuff into place to stop that.

TrueDevil [AAA] September 18 2005 11:51 AM EDT

Zoglog, I think you don't get it. It's because you're not trying hard to get in to the top 10, so you don't actually affected by the NUB.

Try this, you work hard, spend 1000-1500 BA per day, trying to become Number 1 or just to get in to the top 10. You've wasted some of your real life time just to spend more BA for this game to become Number 1, and then the newbies come along with their NUB passing your hard work character in a very short time. If you can still feel ok with that, then I am speechless.

Seriously, try to play more and work hard, get a bigger character or something and post here again that you're fine with the NUB.

Again, the current NUB doesn't affect people who are in this condition :
1. Top 5 (the ones that use USD and is a tank team)
2. Stay low, not even trying hard, just play the game, maybe spending 100-200 BA per day or so.

This is a fact. Probably only few people that thinks they can handle the challenge, but I believe the majority don't like it.

QBRanger September 18 2005 1:50 PM EDT

For those that need some more cold hard facts:

At 1030 am on the 16th this was the stats of TAB and Invisible:

Derek Inivisible:
Score / PR / MPR: 988,817 / 569,954 / 536,645

Ranger The Apocalypse Book:
Score / PR / MPR: 2,055,602 / 1,485,380 / 806,051

Now Just 2 days later:

Derek Inivisible:
Score / PR / MPR: 965,374 / 605,511 / 564,814

Ranger The Apocalypse Book:
Score / PR / MPR: 1,935,131 / 1,526,067 / 815,805

Now I don't think anyone would say I have missed any BA during that time. In fact I was on call all weekend and have been up for almost 50 hours, except for one block of 6 hours sleep.

So I gained about 10k BA without losing any serious BA while Derek gained 28k BA and I know he missed some during xp time on Saturday.

For those who wanted cold hard facts:

Now, is that fair?

TrueDevil [AAA] September 18 2005 2:02 PM EDT

Ranger, you forgot that Derek is using RoE, so it's not exactly 28 k MPR, but still yea, I think the reward gain is still 2x as much as yours.

Relic September 18 2005 2:10 PM EDT

28K MPR growth vs. 9K MPR growth is, by my calculations, over 3x the growth factor. Interesting stats Ranger, it just furthers my feelings about the NUB needing additional tweaking or removal. The RoE imo is plenty sufficient to allow a player to catch any other player, unless that player is also using the RoE which not many top players do. :)

QBsutekh137 September 18 2005 4:24 PM EDT

Guys, Jonathan already put a tweak in place, so let's see how it plays out, shall we?

It is ALWAYS easier to grow when not near the top. Ask Chocolate Thunder how fast he grew Black Caesar. That was _without_ the NUB.

Let's calm down and see what things like in 2-3 weeks, OK? See what Jonathan's tweak brings?

[T]Vestax September 18 2005 4:30 PM EDT

Ranger's 9k additional MPR is not equal to Derek's 9k additional MPR.

Grim Reaper September 18 2005 8:21 PM EDT

you guys are forgetting one little fact, the higher the mpr the less mpr of increase per day it will go up.

It is same thing as comparing trained stats where

Person A has only 100 in certain stats and has 5000exp untrained

Person B has 500k stats and has 5000 exp untrained

when both persons train their untrained exp, person A will gain more stats out of those 5k exp even though person B has more stats in total.

Same applies to MPR

The lower the mpr the more mpr will increase from 10k untrained exp. I used to gain 20k mpr now I only gain about 15k or even less now because the cost of 1 mpr in exp is higher than it used to be.

So to look at Invisible leveling 3 times faster than Apocalypse is not right because they are not at the same mpr level.

QBRanger September 18 2005 8:29 PM EDT

Right now what I am training is 14 xp per point on War, 13 on Death and 12 on Conquest.

Derek September 19 2005 12:39 AM EDT

I'm currently 13xp per point on all minions so I doubt that's the reason.

A couple of points:
1) I'm lower down in the PR rankings so I'm fighting up quite alot (about 1.5 to 2 times higher scores than my PR) so I am probably getting higher rewards anyway.
2) The NUB in combination with using an RoE - I get x2.21 rewards from my NUB alone and about x1.23 MPR from going RoE instead of another tat - multiply them together and your at about x2.8 MPR growth compared to Ranger without taking into account point 1.
3) I just did a small FB untrain/retrain a couple of days ago gaining about 10k MPR - the RoE/MPR bug I talked about a few weeks ago still isn't fixed so although it appears I gained 28k MPR during that period it was actually closer to 20k MPR. I chat-mailed Jon a while ago about this but it still hasn't been fixed.

Take into account all these factors and allow for the fact I've probably missed 5 or 6 full sets of BA over this period and 20k MPR gain vs 9k MPR gain seems close to what I'd expect.

That said I still think the NUB is slightly overpowered but only time will tell.
:)

Grim Reaper September 19 2005 2:26 AM EDT

ranger that is not what I was talking about, do the math on total amount of exp u put into all your minions but before doing that check your mpr, then once you done that train the exp, then check mpr increase. then devide mpr increase into the amount of exp you spent.

so it should be something like this: ExpUsed/mpr increased

then you can find out your mpr cost in exp.

As far as what you said about 14 exp in one minion 13 in another 12 in another that is not for mpr part, that is just cost of stats. But mpr works the same way, the cost just increases faster than stat cost in the long run. atleast it increases quickly if you keep doing math on it and see it go up in decimals :)

Grim Reaper September 19 2005 2:39 AM EDT

Derek the amount of exp you got is almost the same as what I get, the roe does not increase it that much to be at 2.21 NUB

Do a fight and see how much exp you get per minion then go to train and see the minion with the roe and see how much exp it has and compare that to other minions you got. Just make sure not to count the exp that was already on the minion.

So if you got 3 minions:
Let's say for this example you get "you are rewarded 300exp per minion)
Minion 1:500exp<---200exp being the bonus from the roe which does not show up in battle reward)
Minion2:300exp
Minion3:300exp

It should look something like that. The 200 exp would come from roe.

Then do 300x 3 and then 1100/900 and you will get something like 1.22222 .
the .2222 will be the percentage increase and will be counted as the amount as bonus mpr. so with roe on you will gain 22% more mpr in my example.

Your numbers will be different, and I think there have been people who said it is 86% increase in exp for the minion? well you get the idea.

Naturally you might only be getting 130 or 150 at most, I get 70-100 per battle per minion with 4 minions around.

If you can get me the data on exp you got in a battle and post your minions exp that is untrained I can do the math for you if you want, just post the NUB % also.

Derek September 19 2005 7:35 AM EDT

Ok my math was a little fuzzy (no calculator) but my NUB is 126% thats x2.26 rewards compared with no NUB. My RoE gives me about an 88% increase to a minions exp thats x1.22 faster MPR growth compared to those not using the RoE. Multiply these two together and you get 2.76. So my MPR growth is about x2.8 that of Rangers

PopSicle September 19 2005 7:50 AM EDT

the amount of EXP ranger is getting is horible... that should be fixed at least, when your charicter grows its sopposed to get more and more exp, and more and more cash, not lower rewards O_O

how bout make a new CB3, without nub for all them complainers? :)

Grim Reaper September 19 2005 8:12 AM EDT

That is fair enough then Derek, and keep in mind what I said, you are lower mpr which means you gain more mpr for the exp you put in while ranger even though he could put same exp into a minion that costs same amount of exp for the stat as you do, will have his mpr grow less because he has a higher mpr.

So for example so you get this:

Derek's mpr: increase 50exp required for 1 mpr
Rangers mpr increase cost:70xp required for 1mpr

That is exagerating since I think he told me his mpr cost is 58exp but from this example you can see why that is a factor in mpr growth comparsion. The NUB/roe stuff to give exp is just increase in rewards it does not mean you will get that amount as mpr increase vs ranger, it could be compared to someone with same mpr as you, but please don't compare it with ranger.

Derek September 19 2005 8:15 AM EDT

Ok point taken, I just assumed MPR was just a linear function of XP trained

Grim Reaper September 19 2005 8:18 AM EDT

Nope not linear, it is based on exp trained but also has requirements like the stats cost does. Even though it does not require you to invest certain amount of exp to gain 1 mpr that is how it works, it takes the amount you invested and does its thing calculating the mpr. But yea the more exp the harder it is to gain mpr. I do think that maybe the rewards should be a bit bigger in exp gains for the regular players than they are now.

Derek September 19 2005 8:44 AM EDT

I just trained 59161 XP.
My MPR increased by 985 therefore I'm getting 1 MPR per 60 XP trained

Derek September 19 2005 8:48 AM EDT

Actually it is a lot less than that, I forgot that XP gained from RoE is still not showing up in MPR until an untrain is done.

Grim Reaper September 19 2005 11:51 AM EDT

roe untrain bug has been fixed

Derek September 19 2005 6:23 PM EDT

No it hasn't

Grim Reaper September 19 2005 6:25 PM EDT

if it hasn't then go ahead and keep untraining so you get mad mpr :)

Grim Reaper September 19 2005 6:27 PM EDT

mpr always shows up it is there because of exp that was trained. all roe does is give extra exp to the minion.

Derek September 19 2005 10:57 PM EDT

I only get extra MPR when I do this once, the amount of extra MPR I get depends on the amount of time since I last untrained/retrained and this does not happen when I fight and train without my RoE equipped.

If you have an explanation other than the extra XP given by the RoE not showing up in MPR I'd love to hear it.

Grim Reaper September 20 2005 1:08 AM EDT

theres no such thing as gaining experience when untraining and retraining, the exp comes out of the minion and not from the tattoo. Tattoo only gives 2/3 of its exp to the minion after battle.

QBOddBird September 20 2005 1:46 AM EDT

1) To utter a plaintive, high-pitched, protracted sound, as in pain, fear, supplication, or complaint.
2) To complain or protest in a childish fashion.
3) To produce a sustained noise of relatively high pitch: jet engines whining.


If I could audibly hear you, I'd simply call you all jet engines and move on. The definition would be true in its entirety. In fact, it may be.

4074 days old {Gaza} September 20 2005 1:49 AM EDT

I still don't understand why instead of NUB increasing actual rewards; it couldn't just increase the available amount of BA that could be bought each day

Derek September 20 2005 3:43 AM EDT

Tormentor I think you and I are on different wave-lengths.
I give up.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 20 2005 4:53 AM EDT

Gaza: with camping gone it might be feasable now...the only complaint I remember with the idea was that nub campers would rule.

Maybe it's time for a 20/10 catagory. This would require clanfighting to change, but that has needed to happen for a while. Or we could leave it, and make nubs the most valuable part of a clan, One vets, 9 nubs, and million and five clan points.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 20 2005 5:56 AM EDT

Derek/Tor. Just did some testing with Tal for you guys. He's used a RoE for ages now.

Basic Stats.

XP: 5
Score: 828,334
PR: 432,958
MPR: 394,065

I then untrained Protection for 63,754 xp.

XP: 63,760 (increase of 6, rounding maybe?)
Score: 827,638 (Or a fight giving 1xp while lowering my score)
PR: 431,462
MPR: 392,569

Both PR and MPR dropped due to un training. So I re-trained a base Protection for 6,226 xp.

Score: 827,638
PR: 431,601
MPR: 392,708

This gave a slight increase in both PR and MPR. As expected. I've no RoE bug with xp. If one exists any more, it's possibly a NUB bug with RoE's.


{CB1ate}aupStar September 20 2005 6:58 AM EDT

I don't get it...People were till joining and staying on CB1 without any rediculous incentive like the NUB...o_O

Derek September 20 2005 9:29 AM EDT

Initial MPR: 588,204
MPR after training two points in ST: 588,204
MPR after unlearning two points in ST: 590,481

So this is possibly just a bug for those people with the NUB using an RoE.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 20 2005 9:37 AM EDT

Hehehehe... Something else those NUB user get!!
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001WIL">Since were talking about the NUB (aka how to bring up a dead subject)</a>