Creating the Reset Bonus Policy (in General)


[T]Vestax September 16 2005 9:12 PM EDT

The Reset Bonus is a spin-off of the New Character Bonus, which is an idea most recently attributed to Glory. However, there currently is no policy written for such a bonus that would not lend itself to abuse. I have the feeling that Jon would really like to impliment something like this, but making the bonus fair seems like a daunting task. I will write a policy up and I want you to help me by trying your best to theorectically "abuse" the system. Afterwords I'll see if the policy could be adjusted to be avoid this abuse. Thank you in advance.
The Terms of The Reset Bonus
============================

Article I - The Bonus Itself

1) The receiver of the bonus will have their entire account reset. This will be similar to
   a reset given to someone who has seriously broken a rule.
2) The Reset Bonus will grant the receiver of it a four month bonus similar to that of the
   New User Bonus.
3) The receiver of the bonus will be unable to make any form of transfer or receive any
   form of transfer that does not involve either the weapons shop, the armor shop, or
   auctions until the bonus is expired.

Article II - Policy

1) Any person who has been shown to have defaulted on a loan and has requested and received
   a Reset Bonus will be reset again without the Reset Bonus.
2) Any person who has ever been reset before for defaulting on a loan is ineligible for the
   bonus.
3) A person may not receive a Reset Bonus or a New User Bonus more then once a year.

Note: People with the New User Bonus will still be able to receive their bonus even if they
   are reset for defaulting on a loan.

Article II - Other CB Changes

1) All items sold to the store that does not spawn in the store will be immediately sold in
   auctions instead.

BMWheatley September 16 2005 9:18 PM EDT

you have 2 'Article II's ; )

[T]Vestax September 16 2005 9:22 PM EDT

Umm.. Article II 2 is really Article III. Sorry about that. :)

Adrian Exodus September 16 2005 9:27 PM EDT

AI. 3. what about buy now auctions...if something was worked out in advance they may be able to give/sell thier items get the reset and then do a low fast buy now of items back.

[T]Vestax September 16 2005 9:32 PM EDT

Good point Adrian. I stopped that from happening in store purchases but not in auctions. I'll have to work on a fix for that then.

Thanks by the way.

Grim Reaper September 16 2005 9:35 PM EDT

I like it.

QBRanger September 16 2005 9:36 PM EDT

You have to let people make sales/trades via the FS/WTB forum.

Adrian Exodus September 16 2005 9:37 PM EDT

having not ever been reset I'm not aware, so does being reset take away your supportership?

WeaponX September 16 2005 9:39 PM EDT

i was just gonna ask that AE

[T]Vestax September 16 2005 9:44 PM EDT

No it doesn't Adrian. As far as letting people make trades, I don't see why a person can't live completely on Auctions alone. If you allow FS/WTB then you allow USD, which in turn allows the abuse.

If you feel you can't survive without USD infusion for 4 months, then simply don't ask to be reset. It's a choice and these would be the consequences of that choice.

LumpBot September 16 2005 9:45 PM EDT

I see people using this, selling for USD, and re-using it again(If re-use isn't allowed it is still a one way ticket to USD), which is the reason Jon doesn't allow existing players to have a NUB.

This will pretty much eradicate forging, because forgers will use this and they can't forge under the Reset Bonus because there is no transfer.

Add rental allowance.

Does this stop money transfers, because I could sell all my CB1 Junk and really give myself a NW boost.

[T]Vestax September 16 2005 9:57 PM EDT

Well spaceman.

People using this option over an over again would have to wait a year just to do so. This means that even if this policy is in place the current players couldn't use it until January. Then again, if you never had a bonus like Ranger then I suppose letting you have it now would not be so bad.

To say forging will die is quite the assumption.

To say people will use it as a quick cash cow when they decide the game is not interesting anymore and that they will just grab the bonus and leave is not possible. The person would have to play for 4 months until they can sell off their new character or anything it owns. This does not turn into abuse, not anymore then some of the other selling out options. And who knows maybe they'll like the game again once they've had a fresh run.

Yes this does stop money transfers. If you somehow over-spend on healing then your only option will be to make a new character fight a little and transfer the money. Or you can sell off an item you bought to the store. I know it would suck, but it's the only way as you pointed out.

As for a rental allowance. That could of course be considered. I'm debating if it should be allowed, not allowed, or allowed with limitations.

[T]Vestax September 16 2005 10:07 PM EDT

1st Revision
The Terms of The Reset Bonus
============================

Article I - The Bonus Itself

1) The receiver of the bonus will have their entire account reset. This will be similar to
   a reset given to someone who has seriously broken a rule.
2) The Reset Bonus will grant the receiver of it a four month bonus similar to that of the
   New User Bonus.
3) The receiver of the bonus will be unable to make any form of transfer or receive any
   form of transfer that does not involve either the weapons shop, the armor shop, or
   auctions until the bonus is expired.

Article II - Policy

1) Any person who has been shown to have defaulted on a loan and has requested and received
   a Reset Bonus will be reset again without the Reset Bonus.
2) Any person who has ever been reset before for defaulting on a loan is ineligible for the
   bonus.
3) A person may not receive a Reset Bonus or a New User Bonus more then once a year.

Note: People with the New User Bonus will still be able to receive their bonus even if they
   are reset for defaulting on a loan.

Article III - Other CB Changes

1) All items sold to the store that does not spawn in the store will be immediately sold in
   auctions instead.
2) Auction buy now bids are not allowed to be lower then the NW of the item. This does not
   effect min bids.
3) (Advised but not required) Healing will be allowed for people with negative cash. Yet it
   would continue to cost the player money.

Jordan23 September 16 2005 10:57 PM EDT

Is it for real ?
when people are reset, do the gears are reset to?

Sukotto [lookingglas] September 16 2005 11:07 PM EDT

@Jordan: The definition of "reset" is "lose all your items, lose all your money, lose all your XP". So yes, you lose your gears.

@Vestax: Supporters can currently buy the current item for $4 less than a newbie. My opinion is to leave it like that since the supporter already paid for supportership.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] September 16 2005 11:09 PM EDT

Let's see if I can do it:

Someone with an inordinately large tattoo, hereafter referred to as Ranger, "sells" for $USD said tattoo, hereafter referred to as The ToA, to a 2nd party, hereafter referred to as Me. He might choose to "sell" to me, for $USD, any of his other stuff, but The ToA, for this example will suffice.

There's a nice legal PR trail of just how much $USD changed hands. Ranger piddles around for awhile, takes a well-deserved break from the rigors of serious play, devotes his time to posting, messes with some strats, untrains/retrains/hires/fires etc. on TAB so as to sufficiently wreck him (not depending on the new owner to do that, though sales show that to be nothing short of inevitable), then gives or sells TAB down the road to someone who just needs some MPR, hereafter referred to as DAWG. In a few weeks, Ranger opts for the resetting of his remaining, relatively speaking, garbage.

Ranger then plays like a fiend, using his every last conceivable BA with a perfect RoE-based strategy. He plays with such fierceness, such majesty, that his New Character never, in 4 months time, sees 160 BA but is rather played from 159 with awe-inspiring precision. At the end of his 4-month bonus period, he has a character of greater-than-TAB-ever-dreamt MPR -- but he doesn't have The ToA to match it! Horrors!

Except: I have been playing with the ToA! And now, he can purchase it from me! I, of course, will be making a "small" profit for my storage service, and taking a "little" on top of that for my exceedingly generous aid in putting my BA into keeping The ToA in top form.

And thus, my little imaginary story goes, there is no need to choose between the long-term benefits of having a suitably-sized tattoo and having massive, RoE-based MPR. No need to be concerned that there won't be an available Tattoo of Suitable Size on the market.

In fact, his max allowable tattoo size should currently be nearly double what his tattoo currently (actually) is. He would be far better off to show up 5 months from now (one month of messing around, 4 months of bonus) with a somewhat-larger-than-TAB-could-hope-for MPR, and have the guaranteed availability of a tattoo that has been growing quite steadily for 4 months whilst it was "sold" to a dear friend, Me. Switch to post-experiment New Character: it has somewhat more MPR now than TAB had, and it has a tattoo that is much, much closer to the maximum allowable size!

Now, of course, no $USD ever need actually change hands. (Unless my "fee" for storage and conditioning of The ToA is truly exorbitant, and it wouldn't be because now is hardly the time to get greedy.) The PR posting of these little exchanges between us could be entirely fictitious, really. Because now I can take my fairly good-sized tattoo, hereafter referred to as The ToJ, and "sell" it to my dahling Dawg, who (I'm quite sure) will take excellent care of it while I take my turn at gaining massive RoE-based MPR without concern for my future tattoo.

For those middling players, who will always be middling players, the difference between what they'd make as newly-bonused players and what they have invested in their current tattoos is probably negligible. They could send their tattoos away to be dead stored somewhere and still come out ahead, most probably. This little story is just the Top 10 scenario, where Tattoos of Inordinate Size matter. Surely a well-bonused mage could make enough money in 4 months of jaw-droppingly dedicated play to replace any other equipment lost in the reset -- but a superior tattoo? There is a slim supply of those.

What time constraint are you going to put on transactions that happen before the "reset for bonus purposes" and those that happen after the expiration of the bonus period?

QBRanger September 16 2005 11:19 PM EDT

Arrg,

But I completely agree with Bast on this point. This is setup for quite an abuse and it would not be very hard to do.

Some people still think that I am against the NUB. In fact, I do think its a great idea thats currently poorly in play.

IMO, the best way would be to give those starting a flat 100% bonus for as long as CB2 has been in play. Then since Jon is doing the -15% to the bonus because of the ease of play at the lower levels, make it 85% for that time. After 1 year, then raise the NUB slowly to make it 1 year for them to catch up. It still gives then the chance to catch the top players, but its a slower curve.

This way, new players need to play for a while to "catch" the top players, however, they will still see growth faster than normal.

Undertow September 16 2005 11:24 PM EDT

'The Reset Bonus will grant the receiver of it a four month bonus similar to that of the New User Bonus.'

define similar. Is the % gonna be decided by Jon? Or are we gonna get the same, what, 130%?

2: What about past debt. Can this reset be used to get OUT of debt?

Take me for example. I have 5 mil debt. I have never been reset for squelching on debt. Can I take it to help pay off my debt faster?

[T]Vestax September 16 2005 11:48 PM EDT

Well, it seems that nobody likes to adopt my ideas until after I've given them up. Sutek likes my extra BA bonus and now Ranger likes the idea of a flat bonus that gets longer over time. Go fig.

As for the abuse I noticed that a patient person who has a lot of trust in another player could always circumvent the transfers by simply waiting until the bonus is over with. However:

1) This requires enormous amounts of trust and a sacrifice made by at least one of the aforementioned friends. Bast removes the loss of her tat's growth by passing the torch to DAWG, but what about him and his tat.

2) The key issue is that the individual does not have the infused NW to make their MPR low when their PR is high thus removing the advantage of cheap-to-buy BA.

3) This also removes the chance a player has to leap ahead with a big tattoo or expensive gear just so they can pick on higher people _while they have the inflated xp and cash_

It does not matter that Ranger receives all his stuff back by the end of the bonus because they are no longer capable of helping him to the top spot while the bonus is in effect. Plus there is always the danger that a person's money earned from selling out will somehow burn a whole in their pockets.

Four months is already a long time and a lot could happen. Bast could easily change her mind and there wouldn't be much Ranger could do about it. DAWG or Bast could disappear from the game due to uncontrolled circumstances. Or even worse Jon could decide to rescale all tattoos making Ranger's new one better then his old one. I still see no abuse, but please keep trying.

[T]Vestax September 16 2005 11:55 PM EDT

Undertow, since you would be unable to make transfers you would be unable to pay your debts unless the person you owe somehow is willing to wait four months. The policy is clearly stated as to what would happen if you default. It's honestly not all that different from what we would do to any other person that defaults.

As for the bonus, my thought would be to make it _exactly_ the same as the New user bonus. The difference between the two is in the ability to transfer. New players can accept and make transfers while old players rely on their greater experience of the game. Seems fair to me. If you feel you can't use your experience to overcome the advantage the new player gets then don't ask for the bonus. Simple as that.

[T]Vestax September 16 2005 11:57 PM EDT

Sukotto, very true and I agree. I don't see why they should have to pay for supportership again. I also don't see why they can't pay for supporter items or namings as well.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] September 17 2005 12:29 AM EDT

1) This requires enormous amounts of trust and a sacrifice made by at least one of the aforementioned friends. Bast removes the loss of her tat's growth by passing the torch to DAWG, but what about him and his tat. (?)

No worries, he got Ranger's original MPR and is making up the rest with $USD, see now.

[T]Vestax September 17 2005 12:36 AM EDT

What This Bonus Is All About
============================

The purpose of the Reset Bonus is not to turn you into a new player and hope you'll play
fair. It's bonus is built much like the New User Bonus, but comes with vast restrictions.
Does it matter that the New Users Bonus is better, no. The Reset bonus doesn't have to be
the same or better, it just needs to provide the same or similar rewards.

As for the restrictions, they could be anything so long as they fulfill the duty of pre-
venting actual abuse. If a player feels the restrictions are too heavy for them to actually
improve their situation, then that player should not use this bonus. It is actually rather
better if this bonus does not become a requirement for getting ahead. It serves it's pur-
pose by simply allowing the few people that like to talk the talk to actually put their
money where their mouth is.

Remember the person who accepts this bonus is taking a risk. No plan is perfect and you
can always be mistaken about how powerful the bonus really is. It is not a fact that you
can be as big or bigger then the top character, it is an assumption. I personally would
not want to opt for such a bonus for myself. Not right at least.

The key is in simply preventing the abuse and in seeing what the cost of that would be. I
think that the only costs that matter are the costs to the community which are listed in
Article III. Articles I and II can be as heavy as they need to be because it is not forced
upon anyone. The person who takes this bonus accepts both it and it's restrictions.

Now Bast feels there is still possible abuse. What can we do to limit it?

Duke September 17 2005 3:14 AM EDT

This change is by far the biggest ever suggest in CB.What will happen during this time is unknow.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 17 2005 3:17 AM EDT

The only problem I have with this is supporter items. A New user can become a supporter, receive a RoE and use it with their NUB. In this case, I'd be reset, and all my supporter items lost. I'd also be unable to purchase another RoE, as it's a one time only deal from Jon.

Duke September 17 2005 3:23 AM EDT

Price on small tat will be very high there will be about 100 person looking for a FF under 10K level.The amount of gear that will get sell for USD will increase so much that most item will get sell for almost nothing so when they will get reset they wont lose much.USD rate will collapse making the TOP 10 even more USD oriented.Just think how much money dawg will buy from all the players that are selling before asking for a reset.

Mem September 17 2005 3:29 AM EDT

Perhaps the amount of the Reset Bonus could be determined by the maximum PR ever posted on the account compared to the PR at the time of reset. This way when someone sells off all their equipment and their character before being reset they will effectively get no bonus at all vis the Reset Bonus. If they sell off half of their equipment then they'd get half of the maximum bonus allowed by the Reset Bonus. It would essentially solve the problem as posed by Bast, unless Bast was willing to part with her ToJ and still give Ranger's tat back to him. The only real problem I could see is with rental equipment, but the Reset Bonus isn't really can't be all that fair if it is to work without abuse anyways.

Mem September 17 2005 3:34 AM EDT

That's suppose to be "...via the Reset Bonus."

Mem September 17 2005 3:39 AM EDT

Boy, I guess I got a bit ahead of myself when typing... scratch the "isn't" near the end of my post.

This would also curb the rampant selling for USD that has been predicted.

[T]Vestax September 17 2005 4:18 AM EDT

To think that 100 of the 576 active players will actually ask to be reset is quite optimistic. Besides, not everyone of these players would be eligible to ask for a reset right away. The number of "CB will collapse" stories that you spin reminds me of policy debate. Every scenario is the same. You do something or in some cases you don't do something and no matter what it was we humans destroy each other and no one ever survives. I could suggest a policy where we air drop food and next thing I know I'm responsible for the end of the world. Honestly people stop being so darn pessimistic.

As for supporter items, they just don't disappear GL. I'm sure you would sell your's off first or at least give it away for free before you got reset and so it would still be out there. Later on when you are mighty and powerful you can go and buy it back. So it still amounts to one supporter item per supporter and no less then that.

Actually I question what the abuse is that Bast has tried to point out. Out of three points she only addressed the first, which is the one I was depending on the least. Let's go back to the scenario she ran. What made it abusive?. I guess she was saying that Ranger would be more powerful then if he had just played through it with his old character. However, this is full of assumptions. The first assumption being that this alone makes it abuse. If Ranger simply worked harder then he did before and exceeds himself, then shouldn't he take a rightful place above his old character.

As I have said it is only an assumption that Ranger would be better off. This assumption mainly hinges on the assumed growth of the New User Bonus. In fact this assumption is also based on Ranger managing to do this without being able to buy any items or cash with USD or CB1 for the entire duration of the bonus. Just him and his single FB strat and eventually a RoE when he can afford it.

Just like every other new player he has to play catch up with the highest MPR character, which by that point would be DAWG's TAB. Now I'm sure DAWG will love his new thrown as number one and wouldn't want to slack off, so Ranger has to beat a moving target. To do so he has to buy BA. But even worse is that his team is almost entirely MPR based so he has to pay the maximum price for that MPR, particularly if he plans on using the RoE. Then he has to give Bast a cut of his "profits" when all is said and done. I doubt by this time Ranger has made more money then he would have originally. Even so I doubt he would have more MPR then he would have orginally.

His new strategy by the way would be heavily based on one powerful minion and maybe some supporting minions. This makes the usefulness of his one-month vacation of testing out strats pretty insignificant. I'm sure Ranger himself possess all the knowledge he needs to do well already.

I suppose the other factor that would have to make this a case of abuse is exclusion. Basically, the story about Ranger would have to be a story that only Ranger or a select set of people like Ranger could perform. However, I can certainly envision tons of people who would be capable of the same actions. It only requires an amount of trust, patience, and maybe some self control.

As for all the money and stuff Ranger could accumulate with a bonus, I think that what little is left over could either be earned without being reset or could be bought with USD and therefore is in my mind a non-issue. I think the only issue is MPR and like I have said up and down, that is an assumption and a risk this mythical Ranger takes.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 17 2005 7:59 AM EDT

But Vestax, a New User can (until items change) combine both the NUB and a RoE. Anyone taking this route canot. Putting them still at a significant disadavtage to a New User.

Undertow September 17 2005 9:08 AM EDT

Why you go to be all "all or none!" about it GL?

This is close, and I wouldn't call an RoE a "significant" advantage.

I still haven't seen a post where someone has shown that the ability to fight higher with a tat isn't as effective as simply gaining more XP with an RoE.

[T]Vestax September 17 2005 9:24 AM EDT

Also remember that having any other tattoo also gains for you money and virtual MPR. In fact the amount of xp gained from the RoE is admitted to be only a fraction of what the tattoo itself earns. On top of that the tattoo has a more efficient use of this xp to the extent that you, the player, can not reproduce it with your own minions.

It is clearly a strategy that only works for those who say money is no obstacle. Even then Undertow has given good reason to doubt the usefulness of this tattoo to a person who plans to buy a big tattoo later on with USD. The only time I think a person should be wearing the the RoE is when they desperately need to rebalanced their team or right in the very beginning of the game as a borrowed item up until you get your first full tattoo.

TheEverblacksky September 17 2005 11:19 AM EDT

also before one got reset what is stopping them of sending their items to someone else and getting them back after?

Duke September 17 2005 12:12 PM EDT

EBS please read before posting.

Nixon Jibfest September 17 2005 12:23 PM EDT

Vestax,
Did you post this thread as a regular player making a suggestion or are your representing the admins and Jonathan? People make change suggestions all the time; but since you're an admin, it makes it seems like this is something is more likely to occur. If it doesn't, it may be giving a lot of people a lot of false hope.

/admittedly did not read all posts

[T]Vestax September 17 2005 12:28 PM EDT

I'm am representing myself as a player and nothing more.

Wasp [Demon Forging] September 17 2005 12:57 PM EDT

Bit of a grammar change maybe:

"1) The receiver of the bonus will have their entire account reset. This will be similar to a reset given to someone who has seriously broken a rule."

seriously broken a rule? So if you break a rule for a joke it doesn't count? Or if u break a minor rule... would you get reset for that? See what I mean, needs revising.

[T]Vestax September 17 2005 1:08 PM EDT

No person ever gets reset for something not serious. Resets are never done over jokes unless they are high distasteful and when the only thing that makes it a joke is your own personal beliefs. However, I will revise it to be clearer. Thanks.

[T]Vestax September 17 2005 1:56 PM EDT

2nd Revision
The Terms of The Reset Bonus
============================

Article I - The Bonus Itself

1) The receiver of the bonus will have their entire account reset. This will be similar to
   a reset given to someone for disciplinary reasons.
2) The Reset Bonus will grant the receiver of it a four month bonus identical to the New
   User Bonus.
3) The receiver of the bonus will be unable to make any form of transfer or receive any
   form of transfer that does not involve either the weapons shop, the armor shop, or
   auctions until the bonus is expired.

Article II - Policy

1) Any person who has been shown to have defaulted on a loan and has requested and received
   a Reset Bonus will be reset again without the Reset Bonus.
2) Any person who has ever been reset before for defaulting on a loan is ineligible for the
   bonus.
3) A person may not receive a Reset Bonus or a New User Bonus more then once a year.

Note: People with the New User Bonus will still be able to receive their bonus even if they
   are reset for defaulting on a loan.

Article III - Other CB Changes

1) All items sold to the store that does not spawn in the store will be immediately sold in
   auctions instead.
2) Auction buy now bids are not allowed to be lower then the NW of the item. This does not
   effect min bids.
3) (Advised but not required) Healing will be allowed for people with negative cash. Yet it
   would continue to cost the player money.

[T]Vestax September 17 2005 2:05 PM EDT

This is how I see it. If we can all agree that this policy could somehow avoid abuse under all circumstances then there would be only a limited number of reasons to oppose it.

First the community in general would have to be comfortable with the changes made in Article III.

The admins, sub-admins, and Jon would have to agree to enforcing Article II.

Lastly, Jon would have to be willing to program Articles I & III and provide admin features for Article II.

If all of these conditions are met then I see no other reason why this can't be implemented. I don't mean to make this sound authoritative or to bring up hopes, I'm just trying to do this in the most detailed and non-retarded way I can.

Quark September 17 2005 3:20 PM EDT

My $0.02. It sounds like Jon's set the NUB to get you near the top ten, not to number one. So this sounds OK - the market for this resent isn't Ranger or anyone else in the top 10 via MPR, since by design the bonus gets him close to the top. This is for those who feel they have wasted their BA on multiple characters or don't have the MPR their play rate would provide with the NUB. So it seems to make sense.

My only concern is the wackiness to the economy that this would produce - lots of volatility as items flood the market pre-reset. I guess I'm consoled by the transfer & time restrictions, since that would make people think twice.

AdminJonathan September 17 2005 3:24 PM EDT

"If we can all agree that this policy could somehow avoid abuse under all circumstances then there would be only a limited number of reasons to oppose it."

Well, yeah, but that's the problem, isn't it?

The only way to even come close to preventing abuse would be to make the preconditions so restrictive as to render the option unavailable to the vast majority of players.

QBRanger September 17 2005 3:26 PM EDT

There ya go.

Straight from Jon's mouth to our ears.

NO NUB for YOU!!

[T]Vestax September 17 2005 3:40 PM EDT

Well, it is one thing to say there would be massive restrictions and another to identify what those restrictions are. So please play along with me and help me finish this phase of the policy first. You can always object once we finally assess what it would take to eliminate abuse. This idea is therefore far from dead.

AdminJonathan September 17 2005 3:43 PM EDT

I guess if you have infinite time to waste, sure, why NOT spend time hashing out the details before determining if it's even worth doing?

[T]Vestax September 17 2005 4:14 PM EDT

I'm sorry you feel that way Jon. I spent way too much time yesterday just trying to read all that silly NUB nonsense. So far this has actually used less of my time.

If you feel that the policy so far is already not worth doing then please just say so. I didn't think it was all that big of a change just yet. At least not in comparison to the changes you have made to keep the New User Bonus fair. The PR-NW link is a perfect example of a change that drastically changed the face of the game and yet was necessary to let the New User Bonus exist.

Mem September 17 2005 5:10 PM EDT

I would think that if such a policy were to be put into place there would most certainly have to be some kind of rule in regards to selling all your equipment beforehand and the fact that these players already know the game would require that the Reset Bonus not be as large as the New User Bonus. Doesn't seem like this is going to be put into effect though. Oh well.

[T]Vestax September 17 2005 5:29 PM EDT

Why should the Bonus be any less then the New User Bonus. The point is to show that a bonus the same size as the New User Bonus is indeed fair. If a person with the Reset Bonus can show it to be unbalanced then it is not an inherent problem with the the RB, but with the NUB, which the RB is based on.

However, I do understand that even when you can't place your finger on the case of abuse, there does seem to be some sort of fundamental advantage. I think however I can solve this problem with one more revision.

[T]Vestax September 17 2005 5:57 PM EDT

3rd Revision
The Terms of The Reset Bonus
============================

Article I - The Bonus Itself

1) The receiver of the bonus will have all of their characters retired without the option
   to unretire them until the bonus has expired.
2) The Reset Bonus will grant the receiver of it a four month bonus identical to the New
   User Bonus on any character made during the bonus.
3) The receiver of the bonus will be unable to make any form of transfer that does not
   involve either the weapon shop, the armor shop, or auctions until the bonus is expired.
4) As soon as the Reset Bonus has expired, all characters created during that time will
   have their items removed and their cash reset to 100. This should include characters
   created during the bonus which were retired.

Note: People are allowed to send items or cash to an account with the Reset Bonus now.

Article II - Policy

1) Any person who has been shown to have defaulted on a loan and has requested and received
   a Reset Bonus will be reset again without the bonus.
2) Any person who has ever been reset before for defaulting on a loan is ineligible for the
   bonus.
3) A person may not receive a Reset Bonus or a New User Bonus more then once a year.
4) Any person in possession of the Reset Bonus can be reset without a bonus for paying
   excessively higher then market value prices for items in auctions.

Note: People with the New User Bonus will still be able to receive their bonus even if they
   are reset for defaulting on a loan. New User Bonus policy is essentially unchanged.

Article III - Other CB Changes

1) All items sold to the store that does not spawn in the store will be immediately sold in
   auctions instead.
2) Auction buy now bids are not allowed to be lower then the NW of the item. This does not
   effect min bids.

The fundamental problem with the original conception was that the person got to keep all
money and items after the bonus was through. That of course has been changed. In addition
the person now gets to keep all items and cash they had before the loosely called reset,
yet they can not access these items until the bonus is over. They are essentially banked.

I removed the restriction that prevented the person from receiving items because it gives
them no more of an advantage then what a new player has. However, they cannot pay for these
items with game money since they can not make transfers away from their character. They
should understand though that their bonused accounts are black holes and when the bonus
ends the items or cashed earned with this real money will disappear and never return.

This also solves the fear that people will sell out before they accept the bonus. Instead
they will understand that they will have nothing when the bonus is over and so they need
the items and cash they have now more then ever.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 18 2005 6:26 AM EDT

So in essence, it's now a personal 4 month game re set. Or Tournament?

TrueDevil [AAA] September 18 2005 7:19 AM EDT

Sorry, I have to disagree with this idea no matter what the rules because I think this will cause more problem.

I mean even the current NUB can be abused (look at the problem with Inferno - Evolution multi thing). We have been asking to remove/decrease the NUB, and now we're trying to add something similar to NUB for all player ? I think it's much better if we just ask to decrease the NUB even more or think of an idea to 100 % stop people/newbie from abusing the NUB.

Duke September 18 2005 1:52 PM EDT

What prevent a players to buy Item With CB1?
What prevent use of long term rental with pre-payment or again CB1 ?

[T]Vestax September 18 2005 4:44 PM EDT

Devilord, please look at it one last time. I admit now that there was indeed a fundamental problem with the original conception, but this is different now and suffers not from it. We all had a nagging feeling of what was wrong before with Glory's original idea:

x = NW, Cash, and Items from before a restart bonus
y = NW, Cash, and Items from after a restart bonus
x + y = an unfair amount of NW, Cash, and items

The problem is that we always tried to solve the problem by getting rid of 'x', but 'x' can not be gotten rid of so easily. As Bast pointed out there would be no way to police the situation without a lot of work by taking things case-by-case and lots of subjective analysis. 'x' can always be liquidated into real money, or turned into another game's money, or loaned out to friends and you can't get around it.

My solution is to forget about 'x' since it is out of our control. However, 'y' IS in our control since we can place any account restrictions we need once a person has opted for the bonus. Money enters the account but never leaves so long as people don't overbid in auctions. Flagging people who pay excessively high prices in auctions and who have the bonus is something that can, in theory, be automated. Once flagged an admin can evaluate the trade and judge the fairness of the price without having to search around for raw deals.

Now if you feel there is some tremendous sacrifice to your cash flow by taking this four month "Tournament", relax. There is two possible solutions. 1) It could be suggested that money earned during the bonus could also be sent to the "banked" account that is equal the money earned during that time but without the bonus added in. 2) There is a player option where you could simply loan out your items and cash and collect them and interest when the bonus is over.

Since having both of these options available would be rather powerful I assume option 1) will not be implemented since 2) is unpreventable. I no longer see the possibility of abuse. I also do not see a person having all that unfair of a chance anymore at making a come-back. In fact I don't even see the need to restrict the bonus to once a year anymore, do you?

Ryu, to think that this game has to worry about what happens in another game is a silly notion to begin with even if they both start with "Carnage Blender". Either way what makes that any different then trading with USD? How exactly do you cheat?! I send my stuff to you before the bonus for CB1, and what, no advantage during or after the bonus. I trade my CB1 items for CB2 item during the bonus and what, they disappear after the bonus, just like with a real money trade. I sell my stuff earned with the bonus to you for CB1, OH WAIT I CAN'T DO THAT. No transfers from the bonus account to another account takes care of pretty much all of the abuse you are speaking of.

[T]Vestax September 18 2005 5:04 PM EDT

P.S. It's not really a reset bonus anymore since nobody gets reset. It would more properly be called a retirement bonus.

Somewhat ironic since it's suppose to be for people who want to make a comeback, but that is what happens to your current characters, they get temporarily retired.

Undertow September 18 2005 5:21 PM EDT

I don't see the point anymore. Your account gets frozen in time, and you get basically a new one (I know it's not a new account, but for ease of use) for 4 months, with a NUB, that fizzles and disappears. When it wears off you go exactly where you were.

Why would ANYONE take this?

Maelstrom September 18 2005 5:32 PM EDT

I haven't read all of this thread, so hopefully I'm not repeating someone else...

Other players can transfer items & cash to a player with the Reset Bonus? Can they transfer a fully equipped character? Wouldn't that be rather unfair? Or would it be like the NUB, and only characters you create yourself get the bonus?

Why would a person want this Reset Bonus if the player is completely reset when the bonus ends? Wouldn't it just be a waste of their time, since they can't sell or transfer their stuff?

Is a person allowed to sell everything in their original account, then ask for the reset bonus? I guess it wouldn't matter much if nothing can be transferred to that player, but still... Maybe a requirement for the Reset Bonus (as pointless as it seems to be) would be that the player has not sold out his/her account?

Relic September 18 2005 5:42 PM EDT

Ok, since Vestax gave me credit for being the person who recently brought up this idea, let me clarify a few things. While Vestax has I think good intentions with his tweaking of the NCB (New Character Bonus), everyone it seems, even Jonathan is crying burn, burn, burn.

I find that the best ideas are usually simple ones. So, let's come up with a simple solution if that is what "old school" players and even new players desire. I for one would like to see it IF done right.

Here is my suggestion for the NCB.
1. You would choose an already active character within your account.
2. That character would be "reset" but with the exception of all items on that char would be unavailable until you reached the MPR that it was originally at before the "reset".
*******************************************************
Big disclaimer here for #2, a full admin or Jonthan would have to check the character first before issuing the "reset" because of transferring items to other players/characters etc...Yes, this would be somewhat manual but I doubt everyone is going to opt for this.
*******************************************************
3. The character who was approved to be "reset" gets the same gains as the NUB offers. *See below a slight modification for the NUB also*
4. The NCB would last as long as the NUB, and could only be done once per character.

NUB Modification Suggestion:

Ok, I think most players against the NUB in general are against the HUGE $ and exp gains per battle in comparison with their own measly gains. So, let's level the playing field while still giving the newbs a chance to catch up a bit. Give large exp bonuses at the start and set a MPR limit where their $ gains increase dramatically to help them get some gear. Once they reach half the Max MPR in the game give them 200% $ gains for 1 month and the rest of the time they get normal $ gains.

That way they catch up in MPR and also in $ but not at the beginning, they have to put a bit of effort in before getting real money, because after all, most newbs don't really need any money anyway because they are all mages. :P

Flame away or agree with me and give me warm fuzzies all over. :)

[T]Vestax September 18 2005 6:00 PM EDT

Sorry, Undertow and Mealstrom. I didn't make it clear enough about what stays and what goes when the bonus is all said and done.

The Character created during the Bonus STAYS.
The Items, Cash, and NW made during the bonus is what goes away.

The Items, Cash, NW and characters made before the bonus STAYS, but is unusable during the bonus. At least by you.

<stupid question>I see how xp is earned but then how does one earn any money during the bonus?</stupid question>

I gave you a point-blank answer, which is, you loan out your items yourself before the bonus and collect interest. You can always do this.

On top of that you could ask for a rather fair compensation of cash proportional to what you earned to be deposited into your "banked" character. But you'll have to beg for that yourselves.

Sorry about not making a response yet to you Glory, but I have to get these points to stick.

Maelstrom September 18 2005 6:13 PM EDT

Oh! That's a really good idea! You use the bonus to build up a high MPR mage/enchanter team, spending all your cash on buying BA and hiring minions. When the bonus ends, transfer the items over from the retires character, retrain to get some tanks, and take over.

Possibility for abuse: when the bonus ends, can the person sell their new high-MPR character, invest the money into equipment to be loaned out, apply for the Reset Bonus, and repeat?

[T]Vestax September 18 2005 6:20 PM EDT

True, Maelstrom. But the market value of high MPR characters would be near to nothing. People wouldn't have to buy characters anymore, and so you would spend four months just to earn a couple hundred k. Not worth it for the alleged "abuser".

Maelstrom September 18 2005 6:30 PM EDT

Yeah, that's true. If everyone who currently has a high-MPR character could start over to build up a new one (for whatever reason!), the market would quickly be flooded with high-MPR characters, and the price for characters would go down.

A question: after opting for the Reset Bonus, could a player decide to cancel the bonus early (say, after one month) and unretire their old character?

Duke September 18 2005 6:38 PM EDT

I make a situation more clear for those that cannot see it.

The players can receive item as he wish that include loan.

Players A sell is gear
Players A buy a series of base gear that he need for a is future strat
Players A send is stuff to Players B
Players B send 500K players A
Players B put is gear in rental for the maxium of time allowed for a low cost pay with the 500k earlier TAT can be loan few week.
Players B give back all the item at the end of the bonus


Players A end will a load of rare at very high NW high MPR ....... and in the TOP 10.

Duke September 18 2005 6:47 PM EDT

2 potential option


Player B loan is weapon or armor to player A
Player A BS the item
Player B pay player A with USD or Cb1

Players have again exit the money out of his account

[T]Vestax September 18 2005 7:18 PM EDT

I would opt to say no Maelstrom, but that's just me.

Ryu, good point. Loans are technically transfers both to and away from the character. Thus, it breaks or gets around the "no transfers away from character" rule. Money can then be piggy backed on the item in the form of NW.

Since I don't see why forgers should be using this bonus anyhow, at least not to forge while in possession of the bonus, I don't see why we have to allow loans to the character with the bonus. If your a forger, you're building money and there is no point in building money that would disappear in four months.

As for rentals, they are automated loaning as I understand it. It can also just be a way to send more then a reasonable sum of money from the bonus character to the "friend" character. This may also allow for piggy backing NW. This may mean that renting will have to be disallowed for the character with the bonus.

Thanks Ryu and Maelstrom.

Maelstrom September 18 2005 7:48 PM EDT

"If your a forger, you're building money and there is no point in building money that would disappear in four months. "

I can see a way for forging to be very profitable for a recipient of the Reset Bonus: "Small downpayment required, low interest, pay only after 4 months!" Basically only ask for the forging charges upfront, and let the other players pay you back after the four months are up, with the added interest.

[T]Vestax September 18 2005 9:46 PM EDT

Exactly why we can't allow forging. But if you were really smart you would have made this post:

Forging Services - Will Forge For USD

Duke September 18 2005 10:02 PM EDT

The only way i can see thing is to also restrict Rental and loaning.

[T]Vestax September 25 2005 3:50 AM EDT

By the way there was an objection that was delivered to my CM. I mitigated the impact of it but I didn't really achieve a victory over this argument. The main point of the argument was that a person could, within the above stated system, have someone level up their tattoo and use their old decent MPR character as payment. Then use the RoE during the bonus period so as to gain xp which would not be eliminated after the bonus period.

Essentially the case for abuse is that the person would essentially be able to "use" two tattoos at once. This is possible only because your old MPR character could be used as a form of currency. Then again I guess I sort of covered this by saying that the value of a decent MPR character would plummet.

However, I sort of came up my own simpler player driven solution, which I believe amounts to the same thing. People could instead just play the game for four months and get as much money as they can. Don't pay for BA and don't waste money on improvements. Then at the end buy a MPR character of decent size and slap on you old equipment. Then use the left over money. It is almost the same thing when you think about it. Yet eventually I suppose the market value of a decent MPR character would rise above what you could earn in four month.

Maybe we should just wait in see what Jon has to say at the end of the month about the possibility of contests.

Duke September 25 2005 10:40 PM EDT

Can Jon just make a real nerf to the NUB or he will wait that Hellokitty become the strongest players in CB in 3 month.

QBOddBird September 25 2005 10:47 PM EDT

Everyone says that, whatever. 'Sides, NUB has had a massive nerf recently anyways, wait to see how effective that was.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001WMP">Creating the Reset Bonus Policy</a>