Requesting sanction for a new account from Admins (in General)
Please hear me out before you scream multi.
I would like the opportunity to create a new account, with a new user bonus, purely to show how high a new player could get with average playing and BA expenditure over the course of the NUB time.
All money gained would stay soley on the character, none would be sold for USD, nor loaned out.
At the end of the bonus period, all items, money and the charcter wuold become property of central bank, and I would go back to playing Talhearn.
This would be an exercise to show how truely ludicrous and overwhelming the NUB is.
I'm getting very tired of people trumping 9 months of my efort with just a month of the NUB...
But you are not a new user?
September 24 2005 6:22 PM EDT
I'm pretty sure Jon knows what he's doing, and if he doesn't.... No anyway. :p
Bast, I truely wished I was...
How many more new users have to post how high they've got in a month, and how high will they have to get before people accept that the current incranation of the new user bonus is a problem?
400K in a month isn't high enough.
500K, 750K, a Mil?
September 24 2005 6:26 PM EDT
This again huh???
Oh and no, I'm not a new user. You could consider me to be my brother or best friend, who's never played before, but who I have told all I know to before he started.
If that will help.
I'll keep bringing this up every time a new user posts how well they've done. Until things are changed or I'm forum banned.
That's the cutest kitty picture i have ever seen.
Oh, and I don't use chat. The forums are my main means of interacting with the community here. That 'd risk a forum ban to get my point across should shout volumes.
September 24 2005 6:29 PM EDT
People are already getting over 500k MPR in less than a month.
September 24 2005 6:31 PM EDT
well why does the NUB always have to have at least one thread anytime you click on active threads??? Just accept it and move on and now it is gonna besaid I was a NUb user thats why I feel this way and I will get flamed and farmed and whatever else is necessary. Just let it go already. There are NUB's that are about to catch up and pass me but I am not worried about it let them go I will catch up to them eventually
Cool. So something is wrong, but I should just ignore it and soldier on eh?
Wow, if only everything worked this way!
September 24 2005 6:33 PM EDT
first 300k mpr are ez, it is the rest that gets harder, right now I am doing 13k mpr at most daily, at this rate I will be like 40k higher than ranger once I done with NUB, if I started from day 1 playing on same character instead of switching strats I would be higher by about 300k mpr higher than I will be with this one. Maybe 500k more but 270k definantly since I slacked off on the first month. That 30% nub reduction did hurt my rewards a bit though.
September 24 2005 6:34 PM EDT
Jon created the NUB to give new users a chance to catch those who had been playing longer.
It does its job well.
Therefore, all the older players complain.
Perfectly logical. Why, then, does it have to keep coming up? It's perfectly natural for you to be dissatisfied, but you whine like a child.
September 24 2005 6:35 PM EDT
Since the NUB is so unfair, thats why there are so many posts in the forums. Esp when someone with the NUB brags about how high they get in such short of a time.
Now perhaps you should learn to live with it. That being that the NUB is quite unfair to those who did not even have a chance to experience it.
September 24 2005 6:36 PM EDT
NUB is fine, it becomes a problem only when old players that already know a strat go quit old account and start a new one and play from day 1 on one strat for entire duration. Or get "help" from a "roommate". AKA kitty and YOU :)
September 24 2005 6:37 PM EDT
Ok so would it have been socially accepted if another person made a thread say good job about that person accomplshing a milestone for themselves?
September 24 2005 6:41 PM EDT
I scream multi, cheesy stale sock, and I have heard you out. So hah.
OB. What you and some other people don't understand is that I fully accept I can't, won't and shouldn't be number 1. Or anywhere near Ranger.
Having my continuos effort over 9 months surpassed by every new user that hasn't squandered the first month of thier bonus time is frustrating galing and demorailsing.
There should be a mecanism for the 1st position to be reached. by everybody. Not just a once off "here, you get one chance at making it to the top, you miss out, tough, go play another game or buy a big character..."
New users should be helped with thier introduction to the game.
But to surpasse a constant, yet not hardcore or absent player in the first month. is ludicrous.
September 24 2005 6:43 PM EDT
I'm not touching this discussion with a ten foot pole.
/me reaches for something a bit shorter perhaps.
September 24 2005 6:45 PM EDT
/me hands Vestax a vinegar-soaked lemon.
September 24 2005 6:45 PM EDT
lol yes and I have heard the older players out as well. All I am saying is this is tired already let it rest.
September 24 2005 6:46 PM EDT
but it is awful cute how you say you will continue to stomp your foot around until someone takes your ability to post in the forum away. That is so....grown up of you.
And burying my head in the sand isn't?
September 24 2005 6:49 PM EDT
Well, to put it this way - if you had been competitive during the first 3 months to the point where you were in competition for first, you possibly still would. This gives them the first 3 months of playing time, in fast forward, and if they take advantage of it they are in the running. Otherwise, they do like me - don't take advantage of the NUB and end up somewhere in the upper middle - much like you. Your position is where I will be, and I will be perfectly satisfied.
September 24 2005 6:51 PM EDT
well I have been trying to reach the top and I will continue to be competitive because thats me. I didn't need a NUB to make me think I had a chance
OK. I'll try to explain my orignal post a little better. I'll lay down some more rules...
I don't care if the NUB can let me reach Ranger. Really, I don't.
What I would do, is fight exactly the number of battle as challendger as I have with Tal. I'll stop as soon as that number is reached, or when my NUB runs out.
All I want to show, is that with casual playing every new user that doesn't squander thier bonus will pass what I have achieved in less than nine months.
If that is the case, surely you will all see there is a problem with the NUB as it stands?
September 24 2005 6:53 PM EDT
How the NUB works :
Gives new users the ability to be number 1, based on the current number 1's MPR.
You are not number one, had you kept at it like Ranger did, you might be. If new users keep at it they have the chance to be in first as well, the only thing being removed from the formula is the TIME since TIME can not be rewound. So the collective thought, for the NUB haters at least, seems to be " I have been here longer, it is not fair". I suppose you should have played more.
As I have said before and will continue to stand by, if you do not like the NUB, at least attempt to understand the reasoning behind it before you whine like a small kitten until you get your way.
The NUB was recently slightly reworked if Jon sees that it is needed again, and guess what; constant NUB posts are not the convincing factor.
Sorry RB, if your NUB has ended, then there is now way for you to catch Ranger. Unless he stops fighting, or you buy a bigger character.
September 24 2005 6:54 PM EDT
There isn't, though. It'd put them right about where you are - the amount of effort you put forth puts you in the position you would have been in had you played that amount all 9 months.
September 24 2005 6:56 PM EDT
That's the cutest kitty picture i have ever seen.
--Ilovehellokitty, 6:28 PM EDT
Go Kitty! Despite, or perhaps simply because this is completely irrelevant, it's the only thing worth reading in this thread. Everything else has been said before. Sorry GL...
Mrwuss. That's a fine goal for the NUB, but can't you see it's completely unfair for everyone else that isn't number and doesn't have a NUB??
I really can't explain it any more. That's why I want to show it.
A new user is given the tools to potentially catch Ranger. That's fine. BUT it assures that they will pass (and therefore get a bigger, better character) just about everyone else without a NUB.
That is the problem with it.
September 24 2005 6:56 PM EDT
well I guess only time will tell whether I can close that gap or anyone else for that matter
September 24 2005 6:57 PM EDT
I think that the NUB should--at most--allow a person to reach 50% or 60% of the top person's PR over the course of the bonus. After that, they could still be in contention for top spots, but it wouldn't be handed to them on a silver platter.
September 24 2005 6:57 PM EDT
Anyhow, the answer is a resounding NO on the requested sanctioned multi account.
Mael. I was unaware anyone else had requested the permission to stage a test like I have.
But maybe you didn't read my original post.
! Love Barney
September 24 2005 6:57 PM EDT
i could easily be over 500k if i fought more than 160 ba a day for 2 weeks
Thanks Mrwuss.... I'll go back to sitting in the corner handing out suger coated welcome packs then.
At least I tried...
September 24 2005 6:59 PM EDT
But the one thing that most of the Pro-NUB people forget is:
It is far easier to play like a madman/woman for 3 months then it is for 10 months (as long as the game is now). For a 3 month period, its easy to click away, far easier than it was for me to do for 10 months. So therefore should a new player get the same benefits for having to do but 1/3 the clicking/effort I did? So should someone like GL be faulted for clicking away at 50% for 10 months like he currently is? That is having people in 1 month pass him.
That, in a nutshell is my opposition to the NUB.
September 24 2005 6:59 PM EDT
I guess the same point keeps being missed, so here it is in caps so you will read it.
IF YOU HAVE FOUGHT AS HARD AS RANGER THEN YOU WOULD BE AT THE TOP WHERE THE USERS WITH NUB ARE HEADED. INSTEAD YOU FORGED, CAMPED, MISSED BA, WHO KNOWS. RANGER MADE IT TO THE TOP WITH NO NUB, AND HOLDS THE POSITION QUITE WELL.
September 24 2005 7:00 PM EDT
GL has played for 267 days has 181,145 battles as challenger. He averages 679 battles as challenger a day. (for informational purposes only)
September 24 2005 7:03 PM EDT
Vestax brings up a great point, I have 334,698 battles as challenger just under two times GL's battles. So he has fought about 50% of the capacity I have. So again, how fair is it that he is passed up by someone with the NUB in UNDER 4 weeks.
September 24 2005 7:04 PM EDT
just to tell you guys, I only had 3 months of NUB left when I started bunker, not 4 as the character created is a bit misleading since it was a mule at first and I converted it into the fighter it is now on August 24.
Ok so it is annoying that first 400k I got here in a month right?
Well here is something you should know:
at around 300k mpr I slowed down on mpr growth, as I explained earlier many times, mpr has a cost in exp trained. that cost goes up, so same amount of exp I train gives me less mpr than a tiny character would have trained with. It works exactly as stat point costs do, but mpr is just measurement of total exp trained and the cost keeps calculating itself and can't exactly be seen as easy as stat costs.
So to recap on my account:
I created Experiment gone wrong and was going for a solo mage which I bought bunch of heavy armor for cuz I was thinking of going for invincible mage lol. Now all that armor is in rentals. Ok so I played it from July 26, I finished playing it at August 24 maybe 23, then started testing new character team, I made bunch of characters tried to test them out then turned to bunker character and just did my team on that one.
So to recape again:
First month I did 270k mpr growth.
I then retired the character and worked on bunker. Month later I am now 437k mpr. By the average mpr gained that comes out to 14k mpr right now.The first week or so getting that first 50k mpr is tough, I had to fight through characters that I had to fight down to be able to train up and fight higher opponents, I then had to grow and grow. At that point I did not exactly grow like I would of had if I started the bet with warchild. When I began bet with warchild I was at 168k mpr.
If you want some data I collected I can show you this table:
|Time at 1:00 am
So I averaged about 20k mpr daily with bought ba but I ended up doing around 100k mpr weekly. There were days When I had bought ba for pervious day because of exp time so some days I only gained 10k mpr instead of 18 because the ba was used for pervious day or next day.
So mpr gained kept dropping from 20k to 18 then 16 then finaly 14k I think now I only do 11k
September 24 2005 7:05 PM EDT
Which is nothing compared to the BA that is availible.
I use all the BA I can get my hands on, except between the hours of ~midnight and ~10AM. Plus I buy the 503 everyday since I joined BR.
I have grown by leaps and bounds since I got into a clan who supported me with help, ideas and tips.
I joined ~mid january and had a NUB for like 12 days or something, and it was 15% I belive?
Dedication, those who put the time in to grab every BA they can. If you slack off and get passed by someone who joined much later than you, then the fault is at your feet.
September 24 2005 7:05 PM EDT
No, you're right GL, no one else has requested a new account as a sort of control group - an old user with a NUB. But there have been so many discussions about NUB, and how we should all have it, or no one have it. Also, I assumed you were just trying to make a point, not really expecting to get a new account.
But to stay on topic, just because a person signed up after the first week of January doesn't mean they're a new user. I believe there have been plenty of CB1 users who just waited a while to join up, and got the NUB.
And then there are people like Mikel, who are new to this game, but very experienced in other games. In a sense, you could say he mastered the game in only a week or two.
September 24 2005 7:06 PM EDT
Ranger, NUB is based on giving enough bonus to an account to have it be able to reach the #1 mpr character which is you.
For those that miss my point, I'lllpost all in caps.
I DON'T CARE ABOUT REACHING RANGER. I AGREE THAT IF I DON'T WORK AS HARD AS HM FOR AS LONG I SHOULDN'T BE WHERE HE IS.
WHAT I CARE ABOUT IS MY CASUAL 50% PLAYING BEING EFFORTLESSLY TRUMPED IN UNDER A MONTH. EVEN BY OTHER CASUAL PLAYERS.
September 24 2005 7:08 PM EDT
I guess no one understands the time factor in the whole formula. And I am tired of trying to explain it, you folks can argue back and forth from today until the end of time, which evidently does not exist.
Keep it to one thread, tired of seeing 5+ threads with the same arguements in the forums.
September 24 2005 7:09 PM EDT
I didn't make up a point, I simply passed out information. Statistics are simply statistics, people make them mean something. It was for informational purposes only. It could simply be posted to show what amount of BA a day GL could not spend in order to not cheat if he were to turn multi and test his theory. Or it could be used in the way you presented it. Information alone does not say a thing without additional input.
Maybe that was my point.
September 24 2005 7:12 PM EDT
Battles Total Challenged Won
226,844 146,411 140,142
total battles 226884
total challenged 146411
battles won 140142
that is the amount of battles I have done since I have been here and yes I know they aren't nearly as many as Ranger's or Bast's. The totoal quantity is not my point here I have challenged 146k battles since may 12th. Now I didn't get a pencil and paper and get an exact number for my averages fights per day but just ball parking it I see it as around 950 fights challenged a day. And now GL is averaging somewhere around 600 per day. I average 150% more challenged battles per day and I managed this even with missing 3 weeks of BA. If your performnce looks like that then why complain when ppl with performance like mine???
Okay, I'll try to speak slowly this time.
The game is one of attrition. Anyone who says they worked hard for 9 months to _get_ where they are is full of it. SNK had the lead and wasn't stopped 'til he willingly and of his own free will gave up the spot to the person behind him.
Steve had the lead and wasn't in any danger 'til he willingly and of his own free will (Thank Bob!) gave up the spot to the person behind him.
The current lead hasn't changed appreciably in months. That's not working to _get_ there, it's merely _staying_ there. (Some would say the longevity is the the real killer, I would say it's not exactly hard work to play a game.)
We are all allotted the same amount of BA, per time. Those of us at the top have either used, from the beginning, that amount of BA or bought our way there.
Anyone at the top who hasn't bought their way there is merely "next in line".
So, negating the headstart we have, means anyone willing to put in their 3 or 4 months of smart play has a _chance_. At the end of the equalizer, they play like the rest of us ... waiting for someone to get hit by a bus.
IF! they can play for 5 months after their NUB ends, and still maintain their place, then they are playing as "hard" (if gameplay can be equated to working hard!) as the rest of us. They have, and maintain, the place they would have had if they'd started when we did.
If that happens to be first place, so be it. They played to get there, and have to play to maintain their positions, just like the rest of us. If they get 1st, and 2 months later are in 15th ... guess what? They're proving that if they'd started when we did, they'd have ended up in 15th place. If that's ahead of you ... well?
Isn't the "pudding proof" in the fact that none of them have actually made the top spot, nevermind kept it?
What the hell is the problem?
September 24 2005 7:15 PM EDT
Because it is easier to blame not being on top, on the nub, than not playing the game.
Plus whining about the NUB makes you look cool in a crowd of NUB haters.
I do not *LIKE* the NuB, I *LIKE* the idea behind it.
A new person joins, and it becomes impossible to ever get close to the top or even the middle set of scores.
New person quits, then we no longer have new blood replacing the old blood that leaves. Eventualy we dry up and die.
September 24 2005 7:19 PM EDT
You fought 50% more battles not 150% more battles.
Also, your MPR is over 50% higher then GL's and your have been playing less then 50% of the time he has.
Does not sound very fair to me.
And yes, mrwuss, I think we all realize the time factor involved. Its just that there are other factors not included. Such as the amount of characters a new player has to choose from to attack vs the limited number I had when I started. Or the ability to get a ROE (therefore more xp) when I did not. Or the ability to see what strategies work and use them vs having to invent them on the fly like other older players did. Or being able to fight "up" vs my ability to fight characters equal to or "down" for me. Or the ability to buy a high level familiar (if you choose to use a familiar instead of a ROE) when I was levelling mine from level 20.
See there are a lot of reason why the NUB, as it is, is quite unfair, that is too accelerated for the good of CB. After all, can something that is causing so much division among players be good for the community?
September 24 2005 7:20 PM EDT
ok well haven't I proven myself with my continued ascention thru the top 10 to where I am now?? My NUB ran out when I was 11th now I am 6th so I must be dedicated enough to warrant the same respect that the other top 5 vets have because of their perserverance to simply maintain their position where I have moved up and not become stagnant.
September 24 2005 7:20 PM EDT
without the nub there is no way to hit the top except wait in line or take shortcuts by buying someones higher mpr character.
September 24 2005 7:21 PM EDT
did anyone even take a look at my mpr gained chart post? No one seemed to have commented on it
September 24 2005 7:21 PM EDT
You know, just because someone is tired of seeing multiple threads about a certain topic doesn't mean that topic is not valid. (I've been on the other side of this statement, and I admit that I was wrong.)
If it keeps coming up, it's obviously something that a lot of people care about.
If a lot of people care about this topic, then they need to discuss it somewhere... i.e. forums.
You know what I'm tired of? People telling others that they shouldn't post about the NUB because it's been posted about already.
(p.s. I'm not attacking you, mrwuss, so don't take it that way. I'm just voicing my opinion.)
September 24 2005 7:24 PM EDT
ya Tor that is a very nice looking progress chart but that angle of ascention is most likely going to compared to a veterans chart that of course will not ba as steep of an angle and bring the whole argument right back around.
September 24 2005 7:25 PM EDT
You should of taken a look at diablo 2 forums, there is a thing called ladder, every year after couple months of playing some idiots decide to come in on forums and start spamming reset the ladder, in very bad manner just because they are not at #1. And this goes on every time it happens. Once the players miss out playing right away and playing the whole time for 24hours straight they do it, spam and spam and spam all because they want to hit the top.
September 24 2005 7:31 PM EDT
"can something causing this much dissension be good for the community?"
the NUB isn't what's causing the dissension...
September 24 2005 7:36 PM EDT
Well said, Jon.
Right, maybe maths will help. (and no extreme examples here, as close as I can't get to what is/has actually happened)
Ranger has fought X amount of battles. As has been estiblished, I have fough (good enough for this example) half that or X/2.
The NUB has been set up to allow people to reach X in 4 months (it is 4 at the moment isn't it? No matter..), the same size that Ranger would be.
With the aid of the NUB, there are players that have that have reached where I am (and I'll be generous and say they fought 100% of thier potential fights each month) in a month. In other words;
New User = Me
X/4 = X/2
If the NUB was fair, shouldn't people with it only be reaching where I am after spending 50% of thier total possilbe BA. Like I have done?
This is not happening.
"the NUB isn't what's causing the dissension... "
Implying that standing out against it is? Or supporting it is?
September 24 2005 7:39 PM EDT
Your math is a litle off, but your concept is sound.
September 24 2005 7:41 PM EDT
Ok so we all know the NUB is designed to let new players catch up to the old who were supposed to be at the top anyways by now but who decided not to do so and now are complaining right?
But how about the money side, from math I done at 500k daily x 4months(120days) the players would get: 60mill. Sadly we should take off the first 10 days maybe less or more since those days no one really can gain that much because they are still low level, leveling to 100k mpr is a slower process than doing 100k-200k. There are some barriers that happen where players would have to fight down, spend money on lots of ba which is required to hit the top. all these factors mean the player would by the end of nub only gain about 30mill maybe 50.
Now the question to the old players, how much did you make starting from January 1 to now?
For the love of everything holy, I don't care about being number 1. That's not the point of my complaint.
September 24 2005 7:43 PM EDT
You made roughly half a mil daily? :-O
September 24 2005 7:44 PM EDT
GL, you are only at almost 400k mpr, this is where it is ez to get to, the next 400k will be very difficult, instead of leveling 15k mpr, I am doing like 10k, Remember the rewards are based on: regular rewards x % from nub.
So it looks like players catch up fast but really they do not if they want to reach ranger it will take them another 2-3 months just to double their mpr. I have 2 months of nub left, this is where I can only gain probably 700k mpr or less. At the rate I am going and because of NUB was reduced it did hurt my leveling, at this rate I should get like 600k mpr if I go and keep playing without any ba missed.
September 24 2005 7:45 PM EDT
So you don't care about being number one, but that is what the NUB is geared for.
So with that being clear, should the nub be reset so that instead of being number one, new players are poised to be whatever your rank is when the bonus is over?
I don't care about them catching ranger... I'm sure the NUB is fine for the ability to catch ranger.
Mrwuss, yes, if they have fought (roughly, ignoreing retrais etc etc..) the same amount as me, they should be the same size as me.
Not equal to me in less than half the (equivalent) battles.
You can't see how otherwise it's not fair?
September 24 2005 7:48 PM EDT
And that is what it is for, case closed.
The NUB is in place so someone who signs up today can catch Ranger.
For every person who grows by leaps and bounds with the NUB, there are 50+ who do not. I belive CB2 gets close to 100 new sign ups per day.
So those 1/50 people who show the dedication to grow are the ones you are upset about.
September 24 2005 7:50 PM EDT
I'm waiting for the day in the not-too-distant future when the current receivers of the NUB complain that it is unfair, because newer users are advancing faster... :/
September 24 2005 7:50 PM EDT
GL if they fought same amount as you with a bonus double your rewards there is no way they can be at same level as you. Only way that is possible is if isntead of NUB as being % it was amount of ba players got as refreshrate. So new players lets say get 20 out of 20 then 19 out of 20 per 10minutes or something where it goes by % of 10 minutes/10ba as a base.
Fine Mrwuss. I'll stop fighting now.
I urge every other non NUB user to stop as well.
September 24 2005 7:52 PM EDT
Awesome idea Tor. But I'm sure the server load wouldn't be so awesome... :(
September 24 2005 7:55 PM EDT
GL, I am not attacking you.
Both sides of the "war" are trying to get the other side to see thier issue.
I simply do not want new players to get shafted to the point that they stop joining. If that happens CB2 dies, and I for one enjoy the hell out of the game.
That's fine Mrwuss. I know it's not personal. But I'm no longer going to fight (I meant fight as in figting in game! :P). There is no point. CB is now a game for all the new players who sign up. There is nothing left for me.
September 24 2005 8:02 PM EDT
Maelstrom, the day I think has come to pass already. The complaints I here from some people in NP chat is not strictly from the old players that hang out in there to help. CB is much like an ancient Greek play. In order for the next generation to come to maturity they must first remove the generation before it. Yet, the point was not to be a depiction of a game, but of life itself.
Indeed VK, I already deemed that the load would be tremendous for that little Dell Frankenstein of a server. The number of people unconscience would be too many, and the cp for new player overinflated. That idea is far from new news.
September 24 2005 8:09 PM EDT
Ok I will do both sides of the "war" points/annoyances
Ok first off I would like to think of this game as a tournament that never ends:
So here would be advantage/annoyance for both sides.
Player with NUB:
Has the ability to join whenever he feels like it and be able to hit the top if fighting from day one or days later since he has still enough time to hit the top after learning some strat for longterm without quitting it.
Semi Annoyance:After reaching the top because of growing too fast decides to quit.
Player without NUB
Starts off at day 1:
Same as NUB except has to be at the top from day one or else bad things will happen. Should get a good strat in place and stick to it for long term to maintain the top mpr.
Annoyance:Gets annoyed by NUB passing him by even though he/she played since day 1 while new player comes in and gets to him much quicker.
Second annoyance:The Scenario
Player without NUB plays since January 1 2005, it is now 2007 and cb3 announced or maybe some big prize is announced where whoever hits the top by let's say 3months later, will get a big prize for cb3. So bunch of players who are already at the top keep playing.
If NUB is correct the way it is now, a new player comes by passes all the players in 4 months at insane mpr speed and might be able to win the prize without putting up with 2 years of work.
Ok so anyways if you look at other games, they either have rounds(allows players to know when new rounds begin and players can wait for that time to begin the new tournament and have fun getting to the top) or level caps on characters to allow new players to catch up and be able to have same level stats but maybe their rank would be much lower because they did it later on. NUB on cb2 is something I never seen in other games. To allow new players to catch up to the old and be back on track is amazing.
The only great problem with this is the usd part. The multi part is covered since players that try to feed another account get banned easily, but the usd side would naturally allow those multi account players who are smart enough to evade being detected could do things like "selling money for usd" and person goes on another account and says "I'll take it" so in that kind of scenario a player could keep feeding himself with lots of cash.
September 24 2005 8:10 PM EDT
The server load is fine based on it's specs and the fact that Jon smartly uses caching for pages with high requests.
September 24 2005 8:16 PM EDT
Mrwuss, I was saying the load would be a lot if the bonus was made to give extra BA instead of extra xp and cash. Keep up with what I'm talking about.
September 24 2005 8:19 PM EDT
mrwuss, you've made some fine points in favor of the NUB, but saying that CB2 would die is a bit overstated. CB1 survived many years without a NUB.
September 24 2005 8:36 PM EDT
primarily because for the first year, nobody played hard
by the end of year three, it was clearly in trouble
those of you pretending that CB1 or CB2 could remain vibrant without either yearly resets or a NUB are fooling yourselves
Something needed to be done, but the NUB as it stands is nothing more than a 4 monthly reset. You get your time, then it's over to others.
Last thought for the night, then I really must go to bed.
The system is still flawed. There is something everyone with the NUB needs to realise. If by the end of your bonus you are not number 1. You won't be.
Unless everyone above you fights less than you.
You're just closer to the top than those you passed.
You get near the top ten, you still have to wait for Ranger, Bast, Al, Sef to quit or burnout before you get your shot.
You don't get to number one by the end of your bonus, you missed your chance. Tough.
September 24 2005 9:07 PM EDT
I suppose that makes sense, Jon.
September 24 2005 9:08 PM EDT
"those of you pretending that CB1 or CB2 could remain vibrant without either yearly resets or a NUB are fooling yourselves"
If we had tournaments here then people could stop complaining about nub :)
September 24 2005 9:13 PM EDT
September 24 2005 9:16 PM EDT
I "third" tournaments! (Maybe we should start a whole buch of "We want tournaments" threads...)
September 24 2005 9:17 PM EDT
Would giving everyone a bonus based on the difference between the highest Virtual PR and your PR [Virtual PR? The thing that takes in accord the untrained EXP too] work? Of course if there's some money issue for new players you can bonus their money too until a certain point, but yeah. Would that work?
September 24 2005 9:20 PM EDT
spare me :)
there will be a tournament-related announcement by the end of the month
September 24 2005 9:22 PM EDT
Every now and then, Jonathan, you just rock! :)
September 24 2005 9:22 PM EDT
September 24 2005 9:22 PM EDT
*places himself ahead of time, at the end of the month*
*hears Jonathan say, or rather see what he typed:*
"There will be no tournaments on CB2"
I see this as 2 issues. The 1st is the NUB as mrwuss said...
"The NUB is in place so someone who signs up today can catch Ranger"
I agree to that, there's no argument in that because Jon wanted it that way and will be good for new users to join.
2nd issue is, what about players who sign up as early as Ranger but absolutely have no chance of catching up to Ranger and have to watch new users went pass their MPR.
So basically only players with NUB can reach the top but not any other players.
is there an echo in here?
September 24 2005 9:40 PM EDT
thats instantly what i thought too shade :P
September 24 2005 9:48 PM EDT
CB is much like an ancient Greek play. In order for the next generation to come to maturity they must first remove the generation before it.
--[bot]Vestax, 8:02 PM EDT
*places himself ahead of time, at the end of the month* *hears Jonathan say, or rather see what he typed:*
"There will be no tournaments on CB2" --Shade, 9:22 PM EDT
Man, I literally laughed out loud at both of those posts! So true...
Xiaz on Hiatus
September 24 2005 10:04 PM EDT
Bahaha! Boy, Shade you're one funny dude ;)
September 24 2005 10:52 PM EDT
I want to say one thing : "this is 100th post"
September 24 2005 11:03 PM EDT
The reason NUB is here was because of CB 1 Spid, this is what I seemed to get from what Jon said. CB 1 Spid was Invincible, no can beat it, Sutekh managed to beat it for a while I think and MrsDi was catching up like mad. (without NUB either)
Let's compare it the situation in CB 1 and CB 2 :
- CB 1 Spid has two players on it, not allowed in CB 2.
- PR/NW, seems to be solved in CB 2
- Archery / ELB power, solved in CB 2
- Crazy AC, up to 400 AC (now in CB 1), solved in CB 2 with tattoo (I don't know maybe in the future someone will make a 400 AC non ToA tank)
I'd say, instead giving all new users NUB, why don't you just punish the number 1 player if he became invincible or something by decreasing his/her rewards greatly.
Although, I don't see many difference between CB 1 and CB 2, since Ranger and DAWG is almost like CB 1 Spid now, and the NUB is only pissing off the older players who have low MPR.
I think one of the best solution is to cap NW, since banning CB 2 sale for usd seems impossible. I mean, look at the situation in CB 1 now, even if CB 1 has NUB, I don't think the NUB player can catch up to BC moto's 1.2 billion NW (unless they're rich too)
September 24 2005 11:39 PM EDT
I've been thinking about NUB quite a bit lately, and the biggest complaint has always been that they don't have to do nearly as much in terms of fights/loss of sleep for BA regens. Well...what if instead of doubling rewards, you double the BA regen rate?
Think about this, with double the regen rate, they now have base rewards, but they CAN fight more. This also means if they go AFK for just over an hour, they've "wasted" BA. By making the NUB double BA instead of rewards, you now make it so the only new players who pass people have at least earned their spot.
The other advantage to this is you could make it expand based on BA spent on the top player. Take 75+% of the top players spent BA. This is your NUB 'bonus ba', added at each BA regen (and if you're at max, you lose the bonus BA, but don't go over the 160 limit).
The truely competitive new players would still be able to pass most people, but the casual new player would not see nearly the bonus they do now.
September 24 2005 11:41 PM EDT
I really can't see how it is fair that a player can buy 50mill cb yet another player can't make bunch of accounts and feed the main character with 50mill cb.
September 24 2005 11:44 PM EDT
Good to see you still hitting the crack pipe, devil.
It's abundantly clear that nobody could catch the top players on CB1. Period. Di was _not_ gaining ground. Sutekh started early enough that with phenomenal effort he was able to get into the top ranks, _but_ that feat was already 18 months old by the time CB2 started.
Think about it: could sutekh catch himself, with an 18 month head start? Obviously not. Given motivated veterans, no humanly possible amount of effort will let new players catch them under the CB1 system.
Penalizing older players is indeed a viable alternative to the NUB, but I do not think it would be a more popular one. The penalty would have to be substantial for it to be effective.
"the NUB is only pissing off the older players [who haven't been playing hard]."
On the contrary, 3 of the top 10 by MPR have benefitted substantially from the NUB (Mikel, Raijin, hzarb) and have climbed higher since. 17 in the top 50 (of whom, babalon and I Love You are the only ones whose bonus is still active, if you're curious).
The system is working. (I also note that despite Glory's opposition to the NUB now that he's not actively benefiting from it anymore, his character would be noticeably smaller without it.) If the NUB were horribly broken, these would be much higher numbers. It has, after all, been active since Jan 8.
No, the NUB doesn't help you catch DAWG's bankroll. It's not designed to, and shouldn't be.
September 24 2005 11:53 PM EDT
the other thing.... is that 2 of the 3 that had the nub you named used USD..... so the nub doesn't exactly throw them up there either with a big advantage......
September 24 2005 11:53 PM EDT
perhaps you missed the part where I noted that I was ranking by mpr
September 24 2005 11:57 PM EDT
Usd just helps hit the top and be stuck there undefeated with enough usd into weapons/armor w/e else needed.
Dawg and Ranger are the examples, I lean more on Dawg. Ok so not everyone buys lots of usd only a couple people do to help offset their mpr loss and still be able to beat higher opponents. But it does show what happens when usd is involved right?
September 25 2005 12:01 AM EDT
well yes..... i was backing up your point maybe not as clearly. What i meant to say is basically what tormentor said, the nub w/ usd is the only way to hit the very top and stick there..... and no one as of yet wants to beat DAWG's bankroll ;)
September 25 2005 12:07 AM EDT
I am not opposed to the idea of the NUB, just the current implementation. It is too easily exploitable imo. But, I also have no fixall to suggest, so I will continue eating sour grapes....hmm, maybe I will end up liking them after eating so many. :)
September 25 2005 12:35 AM EDT
4 of the top 10 MPR actually, you're forgetting Vestax. (not bad, 40 % of the top 10 MPR are NUB). Di was not gaining around ? Are you serious ? 2 mil MPR in less than a year or a year, I don't really remember, but I remember that there was a contest about it. There's also Shabbleflab's Hoken, if only he played for a year or 2, I'm pretty sure he can get into top 10 too.
Anyway, I give up. I guess the only way for older player to get into top 10 MPR right now is to buy those characters, no other way.
September 25 2005 12:37 AM EDT
Nothing great about hitting the top 10 except for bragging rights.
The top 10 complain about their rewards being the lowest compared to the middle players who can fight up.
September 25 2005 12:44 AM EDT
Awe, just when I thought I could sneak in under the radar.
September 25 2005 12:55 AM EDT
"Anyway, I give up. I guess the only way for older player to get into top 10 MPR right now is to buy those characters, no other way."
I don't see how this would be any different without the NUB though - if you want to get to number 1 you still have to get past ranger who would be exactly the same MPR without the NUB.
As for getting in the top 10 MPR - currently you need 632,165 MPR to get there, without the four NUB characters you would still need 616,415. Not exactly a massive difference.
That said I still think it would be possible for a dedicated veteran with a good strategy to break into the top 10 MPR. No, it may not happen in a couple of months like it could with the NUB but it would definitely be possible. Look at freed's character (used to be called Gyaxx I think). No NUB and no fighting for more than two months yet it's still in the top 20 MPR characters.
Yes NUB's might pass you on the way but if your more dedicated than them you will eventually pass them again.
I would add to your comments Derek, that much of the power of Gyaxx came from my ability to camp items. Without that ability or without a lot of USD that same feat will be difficult to duplicate.
Also, I sold Gyaxx less than one month ago, and I will add, prior to selling him, I would say I burnt as much, if not more BA than say 75% of the CB population. (which is not to say I do not burn almost the same BA now with my new team, just harder to buy BA)
Regardless, the NUB is here to stay, that much is apparent from Jon's comments. To say it will or should be tweaked more as a result of the CB community outcry remains to be seen, but that is likely the only result to come from post against the current NUB.
GL, while you request is not necessarily a bad one, there are so many more variables that will occur in the future of CB, from a pure testing point of view this effort would not prove much. Consider the changes this month brought, toss in the changes that will occur in the future, and a long term experiment of this nature is not likely to show much in the way of useful data.
September 25 2005 1:44 AM EDT
I would like to clarify what Jonathan stated earlier, and also put a new angle on this.
I reached the top through far from phenomenal effort. I never did all nighters, my friends did not have decent Internet connections so that I could play while away for weekends, and I really did miss a fair amount of BA. I fought about as much as I am right now, which really is quite a bit less than I played from January through March or so.
Which brings me to my point.
I was penalized for starting CB2 on January 1, 2005. If I had waited until the NUB went into effect and then fought with the rigor I did in January, February, and March, I would be Number One right now. Without a doubt. I never missed a single BA. Even just an extra 160 BA a day (under the NUB) is a LOAD of experience and cash. Furthermore, had I spent all my time playing CB1 while waiting for the NUB to begin here, I could have sold more CB1 cash, more CB1 items, and then spent a nominal amount of cash over here on CB2 in addition to my NUB cash. I would have been obscenely untouchable.
So, Bast, do you have a suggestion for that? An answer for what is essentially the reverse of what the NUB does? I don't care that I won't reach Number One (neither does GL, though for some reason he has to keep stating that because no one appears to listen). But I DO care that if I had simply started a few months back instead of nine months back, I would be Number One right now. Doesn't that fact make the NUB seem...capricious at best?
As I said on another thread, I have no problem with veteran longevity being made to mean less in the grand scheme of things. My problem is with it being made _completely_ meaningless.
September 25 2005 1:49 AM EDT
Wait, I must have missed something here...the NUB was active since January 8? Did I misread something in that Jonathan post? I thought the NUB has only been around since a few months back?
September 25 2005 2:00 AM EDT
"I don't see how this would be any different without the NUB though - if you want to get to number 1 you still have to get past ranger who would be exactly the same MPR without the NUB. "
umm, I think I said it before that, instead of the NUB, decrease the exp reward for Number 1 player or top 5. (Sorry ranger and the others, but really I have no other solution)
I'll give you guys some math problem. I managed to dig out something from CB 1 :
- Todd-Spydah Spid's Score / Power Rating: 3,000,839 / 2,624,568, from 8 July 2002 to 5th November 2004. (This is when Sutekh congratulate Spid for achieving 3 mil score) , Additional note : 2 players. (Although not from the beginning)
- MrsDi's Angua Von Uberwald 7:39 PM EST Power Rating 2,000,031 from 22 November 2003 to 18 November 2004. Additional note : 1 player.
I only joined CB 1 since April 2004, so I'm not sure if Spid has been reset, rollbacked, nerfed or whatever. Please correct me if I'm wrong somewhere up there.
From that figure, let's add NUB to MrsDi for let's just say 4 months cap with the current NUB formula. What's the result ? Tell me people.
September 25 2005 2:11 AM EDT
the result would be being able to reach the top in 4 months unless everyone in the way was able to kill the character with NUB so that character was forced fight down everyone that is beatable and not able to fight higher scores, so ends up with hi pr low score.
September 25 2005 2:38 AM EDT
From what Jon said, "perhaps you missed the part where I noted that I was ranking by mpr "
So, we're not talking about score right now and my question was about MPR relating to Jon saying that MrsDi was not gaining ground.
September 25 2005 3:20 AM EDT
Sutek, even you have adopted this faulty conception? How come there are so many people who simply say they will be number one instantly when indeed there exists no grounds with which to prove this assumption. When uber-nub guy comes along starts kicking Ranger around like a tin can then maybe you could start assuming such things can happen.
September 25 2005 3:30 AM EDT
Too bad derek quit, looks Like im the only one left to get up there, kitty counts too but for the day I will be up there I will be higher than her I think. She will be higher than me though if she steps up her leveling but that will be after 23rd at this rate since she will have her NUB still. Then again maybe she will quit like derek did.
you talk too much Tormentor.
September 25 2005 5:44 AM EDT
Yes kitty I talk to much, but you on the other hand being a girl, you do not talk much which is very odd :)
September 25 2005 7:08 AM EDT
Your name is well chosen Tormentor. :p
September 25 2005 11:36 AM EDT
yes, the NUB has indeed been active that long. The code was there Jan 1, but I waited a week to activate it for various reasons.
no, Di was not gaining ground -- her PR was going up faster, but XP was not (after she got past where you can go up by beating people with high PR and sucky strats). that's the way PR works.
September 25 2005 12:15 PM EDT
Vestax, I can't help it that these new folks don't know the fine art of never missing a single BA. *smile*
There are folks with MPRs over 500K in around one month (according to Ranger...is he wrong?). I am sure they are using quite a bit of BA to get that far. Is it 24x7? (I am asking, feel free to jump in, any successful NUB user). I know that the rise will be less meteoric after that, but still substantial, considering they still have three months to get another 500-600K to be top MPR team.
My point is that it is easier to run 24x7 for 4 months than it is for 9 months. A lot easier. I know for an absolute fact that I could do it, because I have done (ironically, never did it on CB1 where I was able to touch the top spot briefly). Couple that with:
- quicker growth from having more viable targets as you move up.
- fewer changes to deal with in that shorter time span.
- a well-established and dang helpful community telling you exactly what will be effective (because they have all learned throughout the changes as well).
and I guarantee you that I could have Ranger's MPR by the end of my NUB. Not saying I would beat him without also pumping in USD, but that is a separate issue in my eyes. I am talking MPR, as that is the hardest thing to manufacture in this game.
The gains gleaned from my bullet points above are already being addressed by Jonathan, The first one was the very reason he placed the 15% reduction on the NUB. So I really don't think I have any sort of misconception going here.
Maybe the NUB has an inherent slow-down factor in it (psychologically) that I need to spend more time thinking about. It is the veterans like me and GL who go on and on about, "Ooohhhhh, if only I had that NUB!!!! I would grow like crazy! Pretty! Shiny!" Perhaps new players simply do not (and never will) have that sort of fire in them. Certainly not enough to go 24x7 right out of the gate. They see big gains, huge growth, and are content to whistle up the ladder at their moderate/high speed.
GL, to prove your point, find a mentee that you can really light a fire under and help them all you can with strategy and BA usage. Make sure they buy all their BA from day one. That would be the same test as you are asking for, provided the new player keeps it up for their entire NUB.
Maybe I'll pursuade my brother to play. My dad doesn't let him use the internet at home, so he'll have to play here, but there won't be any 1 sided transfers.... ;P
As for the NUB on Jan 8th. I'm sure it didn't even provide enough of a bonus to be noticed.
Wait till next Jan, where new users are getting so much more than anyone else, just to give them the chance to get to number 1.
I promise you, no one else will be able to compete with them.
September 25 2005 12:21 PM EDT
Sutekh perfectly stated all the points I have brought up about the NUB, including some I did not.
That is one reason I am rooting for Ilovehellokitty. She is the closest we currently have to that new player that plays most of her BA from the beginning. If she continues along, there is no doubt she will pass my MPR likely with some NUB to go.
Tormentor is not far behind, but he has a little bit of catching up to do.
September 25 2005 12:50 PM EDT
Well if that be the case, can you all agree to never talk of this again up until the day you are all hoping for arrives. I'm still not sure if it will actually prove a point since the bonus is already adjusted down and since it's kinda hard to be number one when you're living off borrowed gear.
Yet, I will still ask that we be silent on the subject until a player in possession of the New User Bonus exceeds Ranger's, or whoever is the top MPR character at the time, with their own MPR. I will actually ask that we use Max Tattoo Level since I know some of the top players like Ranger like to stock xp so that they can make easy strat adjustments. MTL is based on Virtual MPR rather then regular MPR so it's a better scale with which to measure each player's potential.
So as not to start another thread on this. If any user wants to take up Vestax's challenge, I'll give you as much help, time and experience as you need.
Just CM me.
It's not like I have anything else to do anyway! ;)
September 25 2005 12:55 PM EDT
Actually max tattoo level is a poor idea. Since someone like kitty can buy a high level tattoo right now and just superlevel it like Mikel did with his FF, now a TOA. Its the 2nd highest tattoo in the game. That also is another problem with the NUB.
And, no I dont think people will stop argueing about the NUB as people near the top, that started in Jan are being passed like they are in quicksand. Its not fair to them as well.
Vestax, if you did not have the NUB and had to spend 10 months levelling your character, you would see things differently. But you had the advantage of the NUB and used it well. But just consider all those that you passed that did not.
September 25 2005 1:01 PM EDT
I don't mean the level of your Tattoo. I mean that number next to your PR on your home page.
As to the people I passed, I'm sorry if you feel any form of resentment. My goal was never to pass a person, just to do well and gain substantial cp for my clan. I've played the game with blinders on and if I failed to notice your anxiety, I apologize.
September 25 2005 2:30 PM EDT
I reserve the right to speak whenever I so desire. You know that, Ves. *smile*
September 25 2005 7:41 PM EDT
"As for the NUB on Jan 8th. I'm sure it didn't even provide enough of a bonus to be noticed. "
How the NUB works has not changed. It has ramped up linearly since its inception.
Be that as it may, I'm sure it's effects weren't even noticed on Jan 8th. ;)
Jon, I've not ironed this out, it's late and this has just come to me.
Why not make a bonus, akin to the NUB, available to all. Have it at a cost. Say equal to naming two items (those without paypal would have to save CB2 and find someone to help as usual).
The number one spot, or maybe even the top ten wouldn't be able to purchase this bonus (yes would lead to people shifting around, trying to drop out of top ten, then purchasing the bonus), or have it at reduced effectiveness the larger you are. So Ranger couldn't just keep buying the bonus and still remain uncatchable.
New users are still catered for, as they get their first time bonus free. Older people, including those whoes NUB has run out and are finding themselves being left behind could purchase another bonus.
New users are still encouraged to join, and the old not forgotten.
The fine details can be ironed out later.
September 25 2005 9:13 PM EDT
GL, I like how you continually try to come up with new ideas.
Though, your new idea of a "bonus" is kind of similar to what the RoE is for. However, a RoE can be used by anyone, new or old, and doesn't have a decaying effect, which contradicts the new idea of a "bonus" that you proposed.
On a side note, if this new bonus was only available to those outside the top 10 MPR, then some would do as you said, untrain/relearn in order to be eligible to receive this bonus. I'd much rather be between numbers 11 and 20 (in MPR) with the bonus, than being somewhere the the range of 5 and 10 without one.
By the way, how do you think the top MPR player would feel? Knowing that everyone around him (or her) is entitled to receive a bonus in order to catch up. They would also receive better cash rewards, right? Kind of defeats the purpose of being number one.
But the RoE can be used by those with a NUB, compounding the gains only they can get.
This bonus should work by comparingyour MPR to the nmber one spot. Thereofre the larger you, the smaller you get. The top player would get nothing.
As for the top player getting nothing, tough. You're already the biggest, badest character. All people need a way of catching you. If they're willing to take it.
September 26 2005 2:41 AM EDT
ok how about instead of having nub we just have mpr reworked so that it is harder to level when you are #1 mpr, but lower people with mpr can get up faster, so in this sense, anyone can restart characters or do w/e they want and still get up pretty fast.
So instead of NUB we would have sort of like what it is now where mpr has exp cost going up, just somethings need to be changed so that lower mrp levels gain mpr faster than higher mpr people.
This way we could end up with anyone in time having pretty close mpr's on a lot of characters.
Something like this has been done in other games but it was just something like have to fight certain level monsters to level, then fight higher ones to level more but the more levels the player gains the harder it is to level to the next level, so in a sense lower characters can gain a lot more levels than higher character. This way ranger will probably still be able to be #1, no one else will be able to pass him unless they go use up all ba and ranger messes up to the point where the other players could pass him.
Tor, I've been suggesting that for ages. ;)
September 26 2005 4:04 AM EDT
yes, Tormentor. I've suggested that too in my previous post, exp penalty for number 1 player.
September 26 2005 4:10 AM EDT
"Why not make a bonus, akin to the NUB, available to all. Have it at a cost. "
buying BA? :P
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