USD and it's impact on CB (in General)
September 26 2005 10:10 AM EDT
As i see it the top 5 players in this game have all used a substantial amount of USD to get to the top. My problem with this is that unless you have USD or the NUB you have no way to ever compete in this game. Alot of people feel i am a "bitter ex camper" that is not the case and if you actually read my posts on the subject you would know that. My main problem was without camping or some way to generate money you could not keep USD in check in this game. I have sold things for USD but never used it in game. I understand camping was flawed and there was a way to cheat but lets look at the definition of cheating it boils down to getting an unfair advantage over your competitors and that is what USD spenders have over those who can't spend USD.
Jonathan blew me off when i tried to bring this subject up but i feel this is important to the game. No this is not a bring back camping post. I honestly want to know if everyone is happy having those with the best jobs have the best chance in this game.
"those having the best jobs"? It's a matter of choice and priority, not best job. I would wager that a sizeable number of people spending USD on CB don't have a job at all.
Me, I'm perfectly happy to spend a few bucks on supportership, etc., but the rest of my paycheck goes to food, housing, wife, and my in-lieu-of-Social-Security-cuz-I-ain't-never-gonna-see-it fund.
September 26 2005 10:21 AM EDT
I completely agree with you, Mega. In fact, some of my arguments against ToAs in the past have sort of been rooted in the USD issue (which is why a lot of my posts were muddled whines). I have come down against the ToAs because they are the easiest way to leverage lots of cash: buy a ToA and spend $$$ and you have a decent team. I see now that as a pure game element, ToAs really aren't that imbalanced at all -- it is the cash invested that makes it seem that way.
But the only way to get rid of USD would be to get rid of the need for game cash entirely. That equals Mage Blender. If MPR is made to be the only important factor, that takes the fun out of the equipment side, and takes the fun out of strategic diversity.
I don't have any answers for you. I was very let down on CB2 when I saw all the "tricks" used to gain wealth (I did not and do not consider camping a trick, FYI): CB1 cash, referral gains (that actually did not last that long, but was a nice initial "jump" for some), and USD. CB2 had the chance to find out how things could work with pure game-based mechanics, but it didn't work out that way.
I know you don't like it when I "defend" Jonathan (as you put it in chat), but I don't think he blew you off. If you have an idea on how to improve the game as far as this USD phenomenon, the game is all ears. Simple fact: this issue is a tough nut to crack (even with a NUB).
If the sale of stuff for USD ever gets stopped/regulated/taxed/whatever here, feel free to contact me outside the game over my e-mail/new web site set up for this/mobile phone and we'll do USD business together.
The issues isn't whether or not USD is an evil.. it is. But stopping USD sales is a problem (I believe Jon has said as much in the past, but I may be making that up). The only way I can think to do it would be to stop player to player transfers entirely and have everything work through auctions with a minimum auction time (so as not to see tons of $1 sales). This would of course anger everyone besides me.
and all the new users who still have higher tat's than most of the top 15 people in the game, no matter their rank, their tat is higher...
CT, that happens, feel free to talk to me as above about buying a load of CB2 cash from me for USD...
GL, _all_ player to player transfers.
September 26 2005 10:39 AM EDT
feel free to sell me a dagger via auction with a buy now price tag of 3mil. Then contact me outside the game over my e-mail/new web site set up for this/mobile phone about your paypal email.
September 26 2005 10:42 AM EDT
Here is my solution. Allow all gear to level up with the char its on. Example a new char 1 MPR equips a morgul hammer it becomes x1 +0 TAB equips the same MH it is much larger or implement a system where the longer a char has items equipped the better they get at using the said item therefore it becomes more powerful
September 26 2005 10:43 AM EDT
I have sold things for USD...
...cheating it boils down to getting an unfair advantage over your competitors and that is what USD spenders have over those who can't spend USD
Was that really said by the same person in the same paragraph ??
USD "spenders", purchase from people like you. Cake and eat it spring to mind Megaman.
I've spent an occasional USD$ for CB$'s but I can afford to because I work for a living. I work 9 to 5 which means I don't always have the time to spend my BA. Those that don't have cash and don't work are cheating and have an unfair advantage over those who have more free time on their hands. /sarcasm
In principle I like this idea though. I also feel something could/should be done to economic clans...
September 26 2005 10:45 AM EDT
didn't somebody from cb1 prove that not using USD was just as good as using USD?
AviodCXT didn't spend any USD in the game while he had his all mage team and skyrocketed towards the top 10.
September 26 2005 10:46 AM EDT
Then you have to find a good rate for the CoI and AG's to level up with the mages ;)
September 26 2005 10:50 AM EDT
G_Beee if you've noticed i have not done any business with USD in many months. I now know what it has done to the game. I got used to things on cb1 where selling for USD didn't really hurt the game because spid was so far ahead it did not alter the game at all.
Get rid of ALL currency use. Experience can be used to train stats, spells, or to "buy" items from the store or auctions.
September 26 2005 10:59 AM EDT
Okay, I'm going to weigh in as to why I use USD. They way I see it, there are 3 commodities needed to succeed/compete at this game. Number 1 is a given , and that is simply to have some modicum of intelligence. The other two are more transient, and they are time and/or money (USD).
There are those who have the time available to them to be so dedicated as to spend every last BA available to them. They can set their alarms every 3 hours, spend all-nighters, and basically use every minute available to burn through BA and "quickly" climb up the ranks". The majority are also the "younger" (under 30 - and yes, I realize there are always exceptions) players who can physically handle RL on a lot less sleep.
I, on the other hand, am precariously close to 40, have a full time job, a pretty successful freelance business on top of that, a wife, family, and all that goes with it. I love this game, but I can only play in little spurts here and there throughout the day and evening. That alone sure isn't enough to make it to the top, let alone even compete on a mid-level basis.
So what is the one thing I have to my advantage? Enough income to have a "disposable entertainment budget" that I can spend however I wish - I have USD, and players who are willing to exchange or access to it (Supporterships & namings, which I've done a lot) it for CB $ and "goods".
I have no intention of spending what it would take to run to the top spot, but I have no hesitation spending USD to keep me at a reasonable level that keeps my interest here, usually at those times that either I know I will have little or no time for CB2 coming up, or after I've been away.
My point is that for as long as CB2 holds my interest, and there are players willing to sell game commodities for USD, I will use USD. The change month in which a "USD" nerf is implemented is the month I say "this sucks, I'm leaving" </sarcasm>. A secondary point is that I really hate the holier than thou "USD has no place in CB for any reason - USD is always bad for CB" attitude. Like everything else that everyone gets all worked up over - the NUB, mages vs. tanks, overpowered tattoos vs. underpowered spells - everything provides balance at some point, and USD is no exception.
Just my 2 cents :)
September 26 2005 11:11 AM EDT
Juju i have no clue how you can honestly say USD has a place in "any" game not just cb. However i will say that it is important as far as allowing people the ability to get supportership. Other than the above if you can't spend time here then that is just the way it goes imho. CB requires time it should not require money to be competitive.
September 26 2005 11:16 AM EDT
Okay, so I should stop playing now? I don't have the time, I never will have the time to compete at that level, so because you say "tough", I should stop playing now...
Keep dreaming, and maybe someday your "CB Utopia" will come to be.
September 26 2005 11:20 AM EDT
i did not say stop.. i said don't expect to be very powerful in the game
Probably landing on the not so popular side of this discussion, I will say Juju made some excellent points. There are always exceptions to the rules, but generally speaking the people with money have less time and the people without money have more time, and I could see how USD could be used a balancing factor. To say USD has no place in a game, is a rather blanket statement. I have yet to play any game for any true length of time, that did not require some sort of monetary investment OR provide some sort of monetary reward for time spent.
I tried going the non-USD expenditure route and still compete at the top. I think I was pretty sucessful. Granted I do not think that is possible anymore, but during the time camping was available it presented an alternative that I could easily argue the point of NOT needing to spend USD. Now that camping is gone, USD becomes more necessary. When you combine the NW to PR link, the lack of camping, and no access to the NUB, it is virtually impossible to make a profit buying BA. Heck maybe it is impossible with the NUB as well, never had it so I do not know. Regardless, those in the middle without NUB and without camping have very few advantages to leverage. I would say the only advantage that is left is USD. Granted USD in and of itself is "unfair" on how it is available to some and not to othes, and that I am certain many of my brethren stuck in the middle (without NUB and without camping) do not have access to USD, and well for them, there are few advantages left.
To say that the time requirement is a necessity is as bad as saying USD is a necessity in my opinion. If you say you don't have the time to burn every BA, then you do not deserve to compete, it is the same as saying you do not have the money to spend so you do not have cash to compete. As Juju pointed out, USD is a balancing factor now. It balances time. I will not be spending USD on CB2 assets myself, or I do not plan to at least, but now that I cannot say, dude, just take some effort and patience and camp your way to big NW, I will not be saying it is bad for someone else to spend USD either.
Just my most likely unpopular 2 cents (which might be worth 10 CB2$ )
I like barons idea of using xp for everything. but then I have a real fetish for living weapons and armour! :P
September 26 2005 11:37 AM EDT
For me its simple. Without USD in the game, Tanks cannot compete effectively. One needs to upgrade equipment and even buy equipment to challenge mages. If one looks at the 1.3 million FB on BCS there is no way to compete without the investment of USD to pump your items up.
So, no USD, no tanks--mage blender. The reason I can say this is since I make 40k a day after buying BA. Now if I dont buy my 503 BA, ill lose even more ground to those with the NUB. So USD is my only way to compete with the NUB right now.
Those who join and get the NUB benefit by extra xp AND money. Some make over 500k a day just by fighting even buying BA. With the stopping of camping, prices on high level items (most) have dropped making their cb2 more valuable then my cb2 was in March/April etc..
So those saying its analogous the USD and NUB have no real clue about the working of CB. NOTHING substitutes for MPR. NW can help you catch up, but MPR is king in the game.
September 26 2005 11:42 AM EDT
then why does Bast beat BCS?
September 26 2005 11:43 AM EDT
And you think Bast has not bought USD?
September 26 2005 11:45 AM EDT
look at her NW it is reasonable and could be done without USD
September 26 2005 11:47 AM EDT
Actually without buying BA it is. But with buying BA there is no way she could have gotten 50 million NW even including her tattoo.
Not making 40-50k CB2 a day fighting.
Regardless the question is why does Bartlett beat BCS:
Bartlett - 815K MPR 48mil NW
BCS - 752K 19mil NW
Lacks mystery to me.
September 26 2005 11:51 AM EDT
i make well over 50k a day after buying BA Ranger it is close to 100k. you make so little because of your absurd PR to opponents score
September 26 2005 11:52 AM EDT
I'm not that far behind the top guns in terms of placing anyhow, if not MPR or score. I'm currently making about 100-200k a day on average, with the top end of that coming from very excessive playing! I'm not buying BA at the moment because I'm paying off a loan, but when I'm buying BA I couldn't compete as a tank team without using USD to fill up my bank balance.
The upgrade costs of weapons and armour start getting stupid at the sort of levels you need them to be at up in the upper levels and at 150k a day say I still can't afford to beef them up and still buy BA. Hence my mage team.... so Ranger's has a point about running a team up at the top...
Mega, even at 100K a day that is 480 days to amass 48mil NW.
Hmmm, ranger = wrong.
Before I gave up, Black Caesar (primarily a tank team) was beating every single mage team, with less MPR and only about $35 million NW. Not having USD forces you to use the resources the game gives you, rather than external resources. It'd almost be like a challenge or something.
September 26 2005 11:55 AM EDT
And remember NW does not include the base prices of a corn, a coi, etc..
Bartlett has 2 corns, a MCM, a COI, a HOE, a TG, a MC, etc..., right there is over 10 million in value so you need to account for that also in the NW.
September 26 2005 11:56 AM EDT
I would like to make the following contribution to this thread:
bob's quick guide to the apostrophe
September 26 2005 11:56 AM EDT
the only need for excessive NW is to compete with other tanks. if ranger removes his axbow which i think is 20 or so million NW he'll still beat BCS
September 26 2005 12:01 PM EDT
I have been eating sour grapes over the current implementation of the NUB for quite some time now. There are two reasons for this 1) Huge exp gains, 2) Huge cb2 $ gains both for very little effort. My ONLY way to combat this effectively other than large amounts of BA use and purchasing, is to supplement my cb2 $ funds with USD purchases. Like Ranger, I am lucky to net 50K in a given day when I buy BA. How much can you upgrade viable tank gear with 50K a day? That is only 350K a week. A NUB can get 350K in a single day easily from what I have heard.
September 26 2005 12:03 PM EDT
There is obviously some middle ground to what Ranger is saying.
Ranger, the Top Five ToA folks _dominate_ the top. To say all that net worth is required is, well, not correct. You could pare back a lot of net worth and still win, yes?
If you were to take away all of your unlearning, selling, buying, and concentrate it all back on your team, how do you think you would fare? The ToA gang cannibalized itself a great deal. How much experience did you lose in the back-and-forth with Gyaxx? Did you ever sell a weapon for a non-optimal price as you switched gear and strategies in your jostling?
Look at Spid. 30 million net worth and a mighty tough team. Now look at Krang. 237 million, and also a tough team. Surely, there is a number between 30 and 237 that would be the optimal mix of strategy, BA usage, and USD spending, and it would not require the massive amounts of USD DAWG has placed into the game. I have always and will always point to Spid and say USD is not necessary to be competitive.
Sut my friend got to call you on something here, comparing CB1 to CB2 is apples to oranges. The differences are large, or else why have CB2 simply restart CB1. To point to Spid on CB1 and say here is a good example why anything does or does not work on CB2 is not a strong argument, at least that is my opinion on it.
Sef, I think he's talking about Spydahs CB2 Spid. With a Net Worth: $29,972,493.
September 26 2005 12:10 PM EDT
Actually Seft, he's talking Spid on cb2, not cb1.
Fair enough I realize my mistake now, and my apologies to Sut :)
September 26 2005 1:14 PM EDT
Basically what i've been told so far is "USD is spent in large amounts on every other game in order to win so why not CB" & " i like using USD because it means i don't need to work as hard to be competitive" not trying to be a wise guy but that is how i view what has been said.
Mega, either you have read a different set of posts than I, or your original post could be summed up as I'm broke, so why can't everyone stop spending USD.
September 26 2005 1:37 PM EDT
Sefton 1 read Juju's post very close. then read what i said about Bast beating BCS and them meditate on it
September 26 2005 1:38 PM EDT
I can sympathize with those who cannot afford to invest USD into the game. I can also see my own view of wanting to be #1 like my pal Ranger. Some people spend way more time on cb2 each day than I do, I really can't and won't ever complain about someone putting more dedication into their cb2 account that way. The same can be said for USD purchasing, rather than putting time, I am putting real money into the game, which in most cases real money = time and/or work of some sort. I think it is fruitless for the haves to belabor this point anymore with the havenots, there will never be an agreement on this one. The only way something could change in respect to this would be a game restriction put in place, however, trying to maintain that would almost be impossible for admins.
September 26 2005 1:42 PM EDT
but Glory Real money far and away surpasses time spent in this game and that my friend is my entire point
September 26 2005 1:48 PM EDT
No problem Sefton...
Yeah, I have been watching Spid for quite some time here on CB2. He could beat my much-higher-PR character at the time quite easily. I was always frustrated because there didn't seem to be any one thing that made his team stand out. That was the whole point. He had just enough AMF, just enough net worth, and just enough concentration in his minions to take me out. A beautiful thing!
Keep in mind that Spid's team would be even larger if he had not purchased a third minion and later fired it.
September 26 2005 1:54 PM EDT
The players dictate the USD vs. CB2 worth factor. As long as two individuals agree on a price then they are equal for those players. And for virtual money, I think those selling for USD are making out like bandits by being rewarded and even paid in a sense to do something they love, like play CB2. :)
But Mega, if that is your point, then I think you are wrong. A 60K a year job grosses $250 a day. At regular 9 to 5 hours that is $31.25 an hour gross. Even after the government's greedy hands that nets around $20 an hour. So, if you log in 3 times a day for 20 mins at a time, that is 1 hour of time spent, or around $20 at that rate. That euates to more than 1mil a day at the current rate of $15 per mil, far more than you could earn a day even fighthing with the biggest NUB out there. In the end, TIME is the more precious commodity, much more so than money. Now your time might not be worth $20 an hour, heck mine is not, but if you can spend sizable amounts of $$$ on CB2 then my guess is you are at the $20 an hour if not considerably more.
You can get money from lots of places, heck twist a 7up bottle and you might win 10K USD, but time is finite, we all have but 24 hours a day to use as we wish. And we only get 700K + hours to spend assuming we live to be 80 years old.
In the end, time is precious money is but one way to spend your time.
September 26 2005 2:24 PM EDT
So, Mega, using your own style of logic to summarize what you said about my post, you believe that I said "I like to use USD because I am lazy" or "I like to use USD because I want to be competive at CB2 without spending as much time and 'hard work' at it as MegamanV".
How much time do you actually spend "working hard" at this game? And what to you actually do with whatever time you spend not "working hard" at this game? Do you think you can compare it to what I have to do outside of CB? If you honestly can, maybe you have a point, but if you can't, then it's time to get off of your soapbox, because believe me, if I had the luxury of spending as much time on this game as some of you other players do, I certainly would.
Lazy has nothing to do with it.
And yes, you did essentially imply that my motivation is laziness.
Anyone who says USD puts someone ahead in the game solely for the fact of the USD is an idiot. USD users must also put a fair deal of time into the game to make it worth it, USD alone does not produce MPR and score.
Fair enough USD will help some people in some ways but they sacrifice the chance to use it in real life so there is a sacrifice to everything.
September 26 2005 11:00 PM EDT
I will not ramble on about what I think about USD.
Just so everybody does not get all upset thinking that the only reason I am wining so much is mainly because of NW that is a large chunk of it but I do not need all of my big uber equipment to win. I can beat most everybody in the game without most of my equipment. Most of my winning is because of great strategy helpers and allot of time spent with the game.
Please nobody take any offense to this statement but nothing in the world is free and I know that is the way the world works.
September 27 2005 1:53 AM EDT
Well in defense of the USD users like DAWG, Ranger, or Mikel. The 3 of them have extremely tough strats to defeat period. with the esception of Mikel (because he had the NUB and hasn't been here as long) Ranger and DAWG would still probably be just as tough for everyone to beat for the simple fact they have put in the time clicking. So since the 3 of them have great strats that they don't need to constantly worry over and worry if they will withstand attacks from others it warrants them the priveledge of building their gears to astronomical lvls. If thats how they choose to spend their free time, CBD, or USD then so be it. I say since one day a NUB will take the top spot for MPR at least let them enjoy have a NW that can never be touched and gear that we can only sit back and drool over.
Yes usd has had a big impact on the game, especially at the top where there have been a few individuals spending large amounts (thousands?) and has been a factor in some of the hardcore but non usd users quitting. Also it gives rise to a larger group of people playing mostly to sell CB2$ for cash. Camping has gone now so some of these have disappeared but the NUB is coming into its own to take over in this respect.
As has been said non usd tanks can beat mage teams its just ToA tanks that struggle as they are hard to get defence on and FB an CoC gets to them even if they have a wall in front.
One of the few constants since early on in CB2 has been that ToA + sufficient usd beats everything but other ToA + usd teams. (ok or Sefton :))
without usd a very rough and ready analysis would be ToA tank > non ToA tank >mage > ToA tank.
Is there a way to stop it without restricting item transfers totally - no. Would the game be less interesting with no transfers - yes.
September 27 2005 7:49 AM EDT
This is like trying to make Communism or socialism? W/e makes everyone equal work. It never has since someone always gets the upper hand over others in money/status/power.
One other thing, since NW = PR it has also led to some odd score fluctuations at times and at certain score levels thanks to large amounts of NW being used ineffectively.
Don't get me wrong, I think without USD Ranger would still be at the top or at least near enough to it, but didn't DAWG buy his MPR and tattoo with cash as well?
And they may have tough strategies, but if they only had 30-40 million NW (like those that didn't spend USD), they wouldn't be undefeatable. They'd get beat by the well-put together mage teams, who would in turn be beat by the well-put together ToE teams, who'd get beat by the well-put together ToA teams.
I did over simplify that example, but you get the idea, It would be like the rock-paper-scissors most of us think this game is.. with USD its more like rock-paper-large_hunk_of_dynamite.
September 27 2005 9:40 AM EDT
Tune in next week, when the new accused crutch of some CB players is a mouse.
Not everyone can afford a mouse, should these be removed from the game? You decide!
September 27 2005 10:10 AM EDT
You guys keep using Ranger & Dawg - 2 players in how many? - as your main reason to nerf USD transfers. Just like camping needing to be nerfed because a tiny minority was cheating. How many campers like Sefton or Pat Sajak's Brain, for example, who would either give away a lot of their gains or make them available cheap to the community, just because they enjoyed camping, were quite discouraged by that? Here's my USD analogy to that:
I started doing research in my transfer logs & PayPal records, but it was so involved that I need to do estimates (if you want actual hard numbers, I'll make them available) Since I started in late January, BarzooMonkey/JuJUlizard Rex has:
Obtained at least 12 supporter ships for other players, in exchange for CB2 $
Obtained at least 12 new supporter items for other players, in exchange for CB2$
Obtained many item namings for other players, in exchange for CB2$
Given away at least 12 item namings as contest prizes
Given away at least a million CB2 $ in contest prizes
Given away at least 10-15 million NW in CB2 items away as contest prizes
Paid forgers (other players) at least 5 million CB2$ to make those prizes worthwhile
This represents 60-70% of the USD I've sunk into this game. Why? Because I enjoy it. It's a big part of what makes CB2 fun for me. And because I CAN.
So, keep whining and get USD transfers nerfed. Then this minority of one will lose interest, and I'll go back to buying XBOX games again, and you all can "play fair".
September 27 2005 1:14 PM EDT
Seems to me that the USD issue falls in with every other "game feature" (planned or unplanned) opportunity that people can use or abuse. There's a positive and negative to a lot of different features, but having all of the features there is what makes the game so rich.
ie:The NUB allows new players to catch up which makes them stay and builds the population, so thats good. They can also pass up a lot of hard playing competitive long timers which feel they're effort is then wasted and they "retire", not so good.
USD allows people supportership, buying others supportership, sup items, NW, balance if they don't have the time to put in, etc, which is great. It also makes it very difficult for people who don't invest $$ to compete in NW, not so great.
I think the balance is not to remove features, like USD or NUB or w/e. That would lessen the depth of the game. Really its to evaluate what you are able to do, how best to play, best strat for you, etc, and then have fun with it. If it isn't fun, then is this the best game for you? If there is truly an imbalance that becomes more advantageous for a players to abuse, then its Jonathon's job to figure that out and fix it to maintain a balance in the game.
September 27 2005 3:22 PM EDT
Call me a meaner, but at least USD keep 7 year old out of the top ten +).
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