Bonus for veterans. (in General)


Nixon Jibfest September 29 2005 8:29 AM EDT

Note: this is not a discussion about NUB.

My Character: Robot Food
-- PR: 7000
-- 4 Minion Team
-- Current Average Bonus: $55 and 7xp per battle.

I feels like it'll take a little a few months to hit 100,000.

Jon, personally, I don't have that big of a problem with NUB.... but how about increasing the XP bonus for vets with low PR characters so we can reach a decent PR. Isn't it just as important to retain vet players?

Arorrr September 29 2005 8:41 AM EDT

May be if you bother to fight at least 5 battles a day, you get to 10K PR by now.

8^)

(joking)

IndependenZ September 29 2005 9:33 AM EDT

Not a NUB discussion. Note: this is not a discussion about NUB. I doubt it. Nevertheless, if some admin thinks
the following is inappropriate or even hijacking the thread, then do what you have to do. :)

Why is retaining veteran players important? Because they know how the game works? They're the ones who need to help new players with their knowledge? Veteran players have already paid for their supportership. New players still bring cash in Jonathan's pocket. So that makes them more important. Oh wait, vets do that too by naming items and buying new supportership items!

Maybe new players are more important because otherwise the game will get 'stuck' in it's own puddle of players. Really, the same 100 players can't keep this game running. We need fresh blood for new ideas, new input in the game, new challenges, etcetera. In fact, veteran players should just leave, they aren't the ones that keep this game running.

It's all about New Players, Nixon. So it would be a clear 'no' to your request. Do you want players to hit 500k MPR in one month? Then all characters could just as well start at 500k MPR instead of 0. And imagine this: how much fun would it be, to see some old player rocket by your NUB-character within a month? New players wouldn't have got a reason to stay anymore! Veteran players shouldn't get an EXP bonus, because that bonus will make the New User Bonus redundant. It would be the same like it was before. Like in CB1, where nobody could get past the top player. It's much better to have veteran players, who haven't fought 100% since day 1, take ages to build up a decent character. That's the way it should be. New players deserve a shot at the top, you know.

Grim Reaper September 29 2005 10:05 AM EDT

Pat that is way too low of an mpr pr to be asking it to be higher, at the low levels the rewards are all smushed and way lower than they are normally at after like once you hit being able to beat 50k scores.

Even with NUB I remember getting rewards of like 200$ and 30exp per minion out of 4.

Then it all went up to 900 and 100 exp per minion forever till the nub nerf :(

Point is ask players at higher levels what their rewards are.

Only annoying thing I see is having mpr grow slowly compared to the rewards in cb1 people told me about.

Don't blame nub on it. all the nub is double the exp the vets get.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 29 2005 10:11 AM EDT

/target IndependenZ
/Salute
/Bow

Nixon Jibfest September 29 2005 10:20 AM EDT

WAB,
I'm not blaming anything on NUB. I'm in favor of the NUB. I also don't think Vets shouldn't get NUB on new characters. I'm just asking for a slight increase in XP bonus.

Basically, it just seems like the rewards were better on CB1, and I felt like I could grow my character and farms faster at the start.

And to make things clear, I'm not complaining. I'm just making a request thinking that it may help the game. In the long run, if new characters got better XP rewards initially, maybe more people would develop their farms a little more. CB1, we could have up to 10 characters and a lot of people took advantage of that. I think it also helped new players because they had a lot more opponents to fight against.

Myonax September 29 2005 10:48 AM EDT

I can tell you the downside to giving veterans a bonus for new players. It would make it easier for veterans to constantly create new teams for the sole purpose of selling them when they reach PR x. Jon tolerates character sells, but I don't think he has any great love for it.

Nixon Jibfest September 29 2005 10:59 AM EDT

Myo,
That's a good point. I'm not certain that would end up being a problem though. There isn't that much of a market for >100k PR characters from what I understand, especially amongst newbies.

AdminG Beee September 29 2005 11:02 AM EDT

Why buy a character if four months after creating a new one you can be challenging top 10 anyway ?

QBsutekh137 September 29 2005 12:16 PM EDT

Pat, give it a bit and see how rewards are around 25K MPR or so. Seemed slow for me at first when I started playing Eurotrash Guy, but then I started fighting higher and growing quicker. At least get up to 9.10 BA refresh rate and see how it is then. Opponents become more consistent, and rewards are better.

Duke September 29 2005 12:42 PM EDT

A good vet can reach about 350 to 400K MPR in 2 month.

csraven September 29 2005 3:16 PM EDT

not even close dude... i have been playing since february and you can see that i still haven't broken 200K yet... and i play obsesivly most of the time... i certainly would enjoy a little higher rewards

Caedmon [Revenge of the Forgers] September 29 2005 3:24 PM EDT

Duke,

With the NUB, 300k-400k is possible in two months, as you have shown. However, those of us who began before the NUB never had a chance, and wouldn't now either starting from scratch.

AdminJonathan September 29 2005 3:37 PM EDT

You had your chance.

You just wasted it.

Duke September 29 2005 3:46 PM EDT

My dear i dont have NUB i never had it.So Jonathan can understand my position.If i have reach top 20 NW in 2 month why NUB is needed at all.So i can only support inpd that show courage.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] September 29 2005 4:04 PM EDT

We had a chance at NUB? And if you meant to be top 10, the chars that are in top 10, were they the original char? Probably..... When we first started out we made 2-3 chars before we found a good one, (With new incoming strats) before NUB even came about, so some Vets started brand new chars, lets say, the day before the NUB started. (Which these people did not know the NUB was coming). So chance or not, i dont know why that was an hit on Vets.

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] September 29 2005 4:14 PM EDT

With all the focus on "use it or lose it" could we atleast get some attention paid to letting us "reconfigure" our strategies without being penalized so heavily? Or atleast give us an opportunity to change our stats after so much time has passed.

QBRanger September 29 2005 4:34 PM EDT

Verifex,

The bottom line is that you should have had a perfect strategy from the beginning to get to the top 10. Otherwise, making a new character caused you lose the "starting advantage" you had by discovering CB2 in January. It should NOT matter that us older players went through an abundance of changes such as NW/PR, max tattoo level, COBF's, etc... The fact we all needed to adapt, and in some cases start over, should NOT matter at all. Just because a certain strategy was based upon the COBF in Jan-March should not matter since the COBF was removed. Its OUR tough luck that such a character, in some cases, had to be completely changed with the resultant xp loss.

The fact us older players are just so helpful to the new players with strategy and item help is OUR fault. Why should we give them all the benefits of our discoveries about how to use tattoos/items/spell/skills? It only helps them pass up older players who "lost" their chance to be the top 10 since we were learning the game from the beginning.

So in reality, its not the NUB thats the problem, its the older players who are responsible for the acceleration of new characters into the top 10. Shame on us, shame on us.

In the future I think all older players should just keep our strategies to ourselves and not associate with the new players. Lets not share any of our information, which obviously is not good for much, gathered by playing a great game from its beginning. THe only such use now for our trials and errors is to help new players shoot right by us in MPR.

Obviously the last paragraph was sarcastic but shows a point. There is a split right now in the community from the NUB. Its not the NUB as an institution, but the fact that only certain players are able to get/use it. How can such a beast be good for the game?

Relic September 29 2005 4:34 PM EDT

That my friend Verifex is the biggest problem with the NUB situation. NUBs can redo their strats many times over while on the way up into the higher echelons. Once there, they can still make more changes because their recovery of lost MPR is easier than a so-called "vet". I believe that anyone using the NUB should get hit as hard relatively as a "vet" when retraining their strat, or lessen the hit to "vet" players and leave the NUBs as they are.

maulaxe September 29 2005 4:44 PM EDT

they ARE hit just as "hard". its just that they are advancing faster. when they lose XP by retraining, it will still set them back the same amount as the rest of us non-NUBed-suckers. the only difference is time, and thats what the NUB is all about - saying that they are not taking the full brunt of XP loss-by-untraining is not true.

QBRanger September 29 2005 4:51 PM EDT

I think Glory's point is that for a 10 month old character, there have been 5 change months. As to a character currently with the NUB that might have been through 2 change months.

Which character do you think has trained/untrained/retrained more?

Also, with their NUB they can recover their xp in a quicker time frame while if I had to do it, it might take me weeks to get back to the effectiveness I had before.

That I think is part of his point.

Relic September 29 2005 4:58 PM EDT

If you cannot see how they have an advantage in regards to strat changes and retraining, then it is a waste of my time explaining it. Think about it for a second and you will realize there is a much larger "relative" hit for non-nub players that retrain.

maulaxe September 29 2005 5:10 PM EDT

I see the advantage. and its called a NUB.
the NUB is there so that new players can catch up - and with your point about retraining, the only difference is the time it takes to get back to where you were. The fact that they have had to endure fewer changemonths shouldn't matter in the least, because there is no possible way to account for how much any specific person/char/strat got nerfed. I have made it through at least one changemonth without being affected. and I have also been nerfed. I have even been boosted. It all seems to even out.

Relic September 29 2005 5:18 PM EDT

Ok, one last attempt to let you see my point. Two players are at an equal MPR of 500K at the beginning of a change month with the exact same strat or very similar strat. One is a player with the NUB, and another is a regular player. The change month reeks havoc with their strats and a change must be made in order to be a viable player. Both players retrain and lose 50K MPR. The NUB player gets the benefit of bigger exp and $ gains after the retrain and shoots past the regular player in a matter of days. Not only does the regular player lose the MPR but players below them with or without NUB who were not affected by the change can pass or catch them much easier than they can the NUB who is now just a distant memory to the regular player. You tell me who is getting "ALL" the benefits in the game atm....The situation needs a remedy imo. There isn't much time left in the month, we will see if anything is done about this.

QBRanger September 29 2005 5:22 PM EDT

I don't know how you can not think going through 5 change months will not affect your training and retraining.

Ill just give one example.

In the beginning there almost all single minion mages were FB mages. Once the TOE was found to be overpowered (yes it is true, at one time the TOE ruled), a large number of those switched to COC. Then as the TOE was nerfed (during a change month), most switched back.

Now starting single mages just use FB, never untraining (losing xp in the process) and retraining.

That's only one example of how those who started in the beginning have trained/untrained and retrained far more than those with the NUB. There are many other examples including the COBF and the discovery of the overpowered FF. Each caused a major shift of character strategies, each with the resultant unlearning and relearning and losing xp in the process. Current new players with the NUB do not have to do that, since a large amount of the discoveries have been already done. By older/more experienced players who are now being passed like they are standing still.

Wonderpuff September 29 2005 5:26 PM EDT

Perhaps this will enhance your persuasive abilities...

Ilovehellokitty September 29 2005 5:31 PM EDT

i untrained my strategy a few times. i guess it was bad idea. Either way it goes, Ranger is still number 1 player :P

QBRanger September 29 2005 5:39 PM EDT

Wonderpuff,

Great arguement, well thought out and concise.

Nice to see good discussion in the forums.

Way to keep the community alive.

Relic September 29 2005 5:41 PM EDT

Is that you in your forum picture, Wonderpuff? Or do you just like to make fun of disabled individuals? And make pointless thread posts? :P

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 29 2005 5:57 PM EDT

"Jonathan, 3:37 PM EDT
You had your chance.

You just wasted it."

Beaten to it.

There you go Pat, you might just as well quit now, like I have. Your times gone, CB2 is for the new players.


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 29 2005 6:21 PM EDT

And one last point I want to add in support of Ranger and Glory.

Consider the RoE.

Current New Users, that also purchase supportership (which any good mentor should advise, if the new user is serious about getting to the top), get the choice to use a RoE.

An RoE will generate a lot of extra xp for the new user, in addition to the NUB.

No player, pre-NUB or ex-NUB that didn't join on on or after the date of its release has been put at a significant disadvantage to all that have come after.

But, that's life. Tough.

maulaxe September 29 2005 7:16 PM EDT

you say untraining hits harder if you don't have a NUB.

I say EVERYTHING hits harder if you don't have a NUB, untraining is nothing special.

potato, potato. (or should that be potato?)

AdminJonathan September 29 2005 10:08 PM EDT

some of you vets are completely irrational on this subject.

change months, untraining, etc, accounting for all that is just a matter of adjusting the NUB rate. Guess what just happened this month?

But some people keep whining anyway. I thought the QB would be above that. I was wrong.

[EG] Almuric September 29 2005 10:15 PM EDT

Well, Ranger has a two-pronged attack on staying near the top. One is where he keeps fighting and gaining XP and the other is where he keeps trying to get the rules changed to keep anyone from catching up to him.

So far he's been quite effective at it, even though he hasn't been #1 for a while. Maybe it's just like the auction 'hunters' ('sniper' seems to be a pejorative, so I'll refrain from using it), and this is another part of the game that he enjoys and I don't understand.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] September 29 2005 10:19 PM EDT

If the NUB wasn't here I would be putting in a greater effort to catch him ;)

QBRanger September 29 2005 11:27 PM EDT

Wow Al, who would have guessed.

A personal attack on me.

My "two pronged" attack as you put it is really only 1 prong. That is fight, fight and fight some more.

Since you switched from a tank team to a mage team you really are now on the other side of the fence. Well too bad you could not take the heat in the kitchen so you got out.

All the posts I make for the NUB is that in its "current" form is not working for all players. I have always stated some sort of NUB is needed but to get 500k MPR in 1 month is far too much.

Also, Look at my posts at the TOA nerfs. I was in favor of it and actually thought it was not enough. I would like the game to be fair and equal to all players, new and old alike and the NUB is just plain unfair to the older players.

To say I want the rules changed to suit me is way way off base and in fact very spiteful. I would have thought better from a former adversary.

This auction "sniping" is not sniping. Please look up or google the true definition of the word before you rant. The "sniping" is fair to all players, thats why I favor it. Camping was flawed and biased to those who cheated. It was known for a while it can be done, and Jon put an end to a flawed concept as it was. Just because someone bought an item cheap in auctions then resold it to you for a profit does not make it wrong. If you really wanted that item, you would have been awake for its auction ending and bought it yourself.

Jerk September 29 2005 11:34 PM EDT

OK AL are you really not aware that all Ranger has to do is train some of that massive untrained exp he has built up hten he is perching on top MPR again. And if he was that hell bent on being the absolute omega here he could just drop some crazy USD into his gear and then we all are stitting back twiddling our thumbs watching him reach full godliness. There's certain things Ranger says and does that irritates alot of ppl even myself but he still has a phenomenal understanding of this game and his team reflects that.

QBOddBird September 29 2005 11:38 PM EDT

" Note: this is not a discussion about NUB. "

then, in response to Wonderpuffs violin....

"Wonderpuff,

Great arguement, well thought out and concise.

Nice to see good discussion in the forums.

Way to keep the community alive. "


Just thought I'd defend Wonderpuff for a moment here, because he had full right to do so - the thread was specifically intended not to become a NUB discussion, and the whiners/vets turned it into one again. Quit that.



"Mommy, why did the other kid get a lolly, I want one too!"

Duke September 30 2005 1:01 AM EDT

Can we keep personal attack out of the argument.NUB is not working some rare players make archivement that took month to older players to archive.While some NUB will never take advantage of it.Why make it more balanced with a CAP.I not supporting the reset policy neither the VET bonus that been suggested.Why not change the a source of the problem.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 30 2005 2:17 AM EDT

Jon it's not about being irrational. You yourself have stated the whole problem.

In CB you get one shot at the top, be it a character created on January 1st, or a character created with the NUB.

If that character hasn't reached the top now (for one created on Jan 1st) or by the end of your NUB, then you never will. There is no mechanism in place to allow advancement, and in your own words, "you had your chance".

Then what? With camping gone (which I whole heartedly agree with), what's left to keep a player playing the game? Forging?

It just seems you're more interested in getting new people in the door, not about keeping people here.

Nixon Jibfest September 30 2005 3:05 AM EDT

I should have made this a contest.

Most useful response:
SutekhTDestroyer, September 29 2005 12:16 PM EDT

Least useful response:
Jonathan, September 29 2005 3:37 PM EDT

I was simply making the observation that xp reward seems kind of low for low PR characters. Consequently, I was making a suggestion to give a slight rise to xp reward on new characters.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 30 2005 4:46 AM EDT

to be fair psb...I think Jon was speaking directly to Caedmon's response, but I could be wrong.

I still don't like the path we have been put on, first the removal of the classic way to up a char (big NW, fighting higher PR opponents), then the addition of the new users bonus. It does seem very clear that if you are not A. Ranger, Bast, Rubberduck, or one of the MANY folks who have worked for months at getting where they are. or B. a rank amature, freshly logged in with the paint on your wooden Tulwar still drying or C. someone willing to part with enough money to feed a family in the real world (yes I said real world, us capalfacists are by far the minority) for a year; you will NOT see the top 10%, let alone the real top five.

The problem with any bonus for us lazy folks (or those foolish enough to think that Jon's affection for campers was enough to exempt them from being bent over on a change month) is that it would make the "unfairness" of the nub look like a x-mas gift.

I think the RoE is all we are gonna get...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 30 2005 5:10 AM EDT

But consider this.

If everyone who signed in worked at 100%, spent every single possible bit of BA, didn't untrain or change a single stat, for the 10 months CB2 has been active, there would still be a Top ten.

People would still be in 20th, 50th, 100th place.

This order would be fixed on strategy, money management, luck, clan membership and the amount of USD you are willing to spend.

Ignore people being lazy and not spending 100% of their possible BA.

Those not in the top 10 or even 5 have no chance of ever getting higher in the game. (apart form new users given a boost, they don't have to worry about any jockying for position, just work your hardest and you get it)

And that's just the way it is. Tough.

AdminJonathan September 30 2005 9:02 AM EDT

"If that character hasn't reached the top now (for one created on Jan 1st) or by the end of your NUB, then you never will."

That is correct.

But that is completely separate from the NUB issue. The NUB says, "let's give those people who NEVER had a chance, the same amount of chance that you vets had."

And the ones who didn't take advantage of theirs, resent others getting a chance at all. Really mature, huh?

And then of course you have a few people at the top who did take advantage of their chance, but still feel threatened by new players getting one too.

It's very discouraging to see the naked selfishness of the anti-NUB crowd.

Nixon Jibfest September 30 2005 9:22 AM EDT

Jonathan, personally, I don't a problem with NUB. In theory, I think it's a great idea.

Now back to my original post... but how about slightly increasing the XP rewards on low PR characters. All I'm saying is that 7-8 xp per battle (currently with a 8-10% clan bonus) seems low. I'm not suggesting this because it would help me personally. I'm suggesting this because I think it would help your game out in the long run by giving a little more incentive for ALL players to build up their farm characters.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 30 2005 9:59 AM EDT

"But that is completely separate from the NUB issue. The NUB says, "let's give those people who NEVER had a chance, the same amount of chance that you vets had.""

Of course, but make it fair. Make them put in the same number of 'clicks'. Make them go through the same number of game altering changes. Make them only have the RoE (You know, does the RoE also work off of the rewards you get, meaning NUB users get even more xp per fight than a non NUB when they use an RoE?) for a small fraction of thier charcaters life. Make them unable to fight above them for the first couple of weeks/months as larger character didn't exist at the start of CB2.

And please, don't make them able to pass 9/10 months of casual gaming in the blink of an eye, at less the half the effort of a casual gamer...

"And the ones who didn't take advantage of theirs, resent others getting a chance at all. Really mature, huh?"

No Jon. I don't resent giving new players a chance. I resent everything being handed to them. Trivialising any input I put into the game myself.

As I've said, the inability of being able to reach the top, baring everyone above you quiting, or buying a high charcater, is a flaw with the system. It'll effect all the new users as well when their bonus time runs out.

AdminJonathan September 30 2005 10:12 AM EDT

You can try to hide it under sophistry but the bottom line is you resent new players getting the same chance you had.

Saying, "let's make new players click the same amount I did" really means, "let's discourage the hell out of new players so they won't pass me." Because that's what it would do.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] September 30 2005 11:13 AM EDT

But these NUB users now have mentors who tell them (or even anybody in chat) telling them the best strats out there, so they start off with a good strat right away cuz the games been out for 9 months now. We didnt have the luxury of knowing ANY strats, so where was our NUB? Cuz we were blind to the opening of CB2, but these new people coming in who ALSO dont know the game, get 150% bonus in rewards plus the help of everybody and learn the game in a weeks time.

<sarcasm - but seems like it should be correct>So to make it fair, make it so NUB's only have the option to use forum and no chat so they cant find a new strat until the test it out and find out they screwed up.</sarcasm>

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 30 2005 11:18 AM EDT

But you don't mind discouraging old players?

I'm sure a system that works and is fair for both old and new players can be found and implemented.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 30 2005 11:23 AM EDT

"you resent new players getting the same chance you had."

This is what I have the biggest problem with.

It's obvious that new players don't have the same chance as I had. They have a much better chance.

More established game. Better help from others as understanding has grown, the list of benefits new players get goes on. On top of it all, they get more for working less. Which every newer player will get than those new players than joined before them.

This is not the same chance. I honestly can't see how anyone can claim it's fair or equal.

[EG] Almuric September 30 2005 1:10 PM EDT

I joined CB1 when there were people already over 1 million PR. By the time I quit, I'd climbed the ranks to 7th place. There was no NUB and no bonus for veterans. And I took off at least 2 months to forge. Basically, I fought more than most people ahead of me.

It's entirely possible to get near the top without any kind of bonus. All it requires is using up all your BA every day. Very few other people will be able to do that. Being at the top is about attrition, longevity, and stick-to-it-iveness.

Right now, it doesn't look like Ranger will ever quit. I assure you, one day he will. Aside from which, he's having to fight so far below his PR that his rewards are sub-optimal. A well-managed strategy and determination could see you pass him. Perhaps not in 4 months, but it seems to be lots of people's point that 4 months is too quick anyway. (You know, if you did it that quick, you 'wouldn't have put in your time', and wouldn't be deserving. I think that's rubbish, but I'm a cantankerous old coot.)

Look, Jon has decided that 4 months is an appropriate length of time for new users to 'catch up'. It seems fair to me. Some people are saying it should be longer, some people want to abolish the NUB altogether. It's a judgement call. Maybe as the game goes on, the NUB period will be slowly expanded. I'm not a game designer and couldn't guess as to what the right thing to do is.

I do know that the only fair thing in a game is to allow new people to catch up. If you think that's unfair, fine, but the more you complain about it, the more those of us who disagree are going to complain about you complaining.

I really don't understand Ranger's complaints. In all the time the NUB has been in effect, not one person has come even close to passing him. Mikel's attempt was the best and still fell short. Ranger is in no danger of being passed by anyone and yet he's the most vocal in his opposition to giving new users a bonus. It seems very, very petty for the guy who's been at the top for so long to be so averse to healthy competition.

If it was just "You know, back in my day, we didn't have the NUB...", it would be alright. But it seems very much, "I've got mine, and you shouldn't get any help in getting yours." Complaining about, "Well, I had to go through 5 change months" seems like sour grapes to me. I live for the change months. I can't wait for the next one. That's what makes the game new and exciting. I don't complain about having lived through them, I'm like an old campaigner who sits around the campfire and tells the new guys about all he went through.

And Ranger, if it seems like that was a personal attack on you, it's because it was. I'm really sick of you complaining about this. I'm about to start a petition to have your QB revoked. Probably not possible, but your incessant whine is irritating and really starting to get on my nerves. I think you do good things, but this is starting to overshadow everything else.

Are you not training XP because you want to have one of the new users pass you, so you can complain about being passed when in actuality you have half-a-billion xp saved up? I don't think any of us are gonna fall for it.

Also, I 'got out of the kitchen' because I had a sort-of epiphany. I decided I didn't want to win the US$ war. I still want to get to the top, or at least nearer than I am now. I just decided that having more money than other people doesn't make me a better player. You can call me a quitter if you want, but I'm still right there. If you ever go away, I'll be ready to step into your shoes. Don't blink.

QBJohnnywas September 30 2005 1:20 PM EDT

I'm not as antagonised by it all as Al but I'm on the same side I think. I'm only really concerned with my own char in the long run and so I don't really care if people pass me in a shorter space of time than I've spent. I started my char late - end of March, no NUB, no USD, no camping just down click down click down click. Bought a lot of BA, and fought hard 5, 6, even 7 days a week. And, while I'm nowhere near catching up to Ranger, I've been within the top 30 chars a lot lately, despite having much lower PR/MPR than most of the teams around me. And if, with my slightly limited grasp of strategy, certainly the formulas pass me by most of the time, I can get to where I am then so can other players.

It really depends on how much commitment you want to put into the game and whether you see it as a long term thing or want everything now...

AdminJonathan September 30 2005 1:38 PM EDT

by the end of march the NUB was very much in full swing.

just setting the record straight since it seems to be a popular misconception that the NUB is a new concept. yet there it is, announced in the very first day of cb2.

QBRanger September 30 2005 1:42 PM EDT

Al,
At least your true colors are now evident. You could not take the top spot by fighting so you resort to personal attacks. As Jon would say "very mature of you".

As to me untraining xp, I wish to see how much I can build up before I need to train. Others have done it from time to time.

Again, I an not against a NUB, just its current form. Mikel would have easily passed everyone if noone said anything about it. .

One of the best parts of this game are chat and forums. One gets to state one opinion. If you disagree, fine. But personal attacks have NO place here, especially when it is against an idea you disagree with. Yes, I have attacked Monty pubically but that was different in that he was breaking known rules.

So if you disagree with my views, fine. State your opposition, but keep personal attacks out of the fray. If you want to try to revoke the QB because I disagree with your views, then please try. I am sure there are many that feel as you do. But as long as forums are open, I will state my opinions and keep it PG of course.

QBJohnnywas September 30 2005 1:44 PM EDT

No misconception on my part about the NUB starting. I started on Jan 2nd - would have been the 1st but I was recovering from my New Year's celebrations...

So there I was without the NUB and when I finally settled on a char and strat that I was happy about I had to start my climb in the old fashioned way. Just to drum in my point about it being possible to start a new char as a non NUB player...

AdminJonathan September 30 2005 1:49 PM EDT

Ah, that makes sense now Johnny.

[Tranquility]-USDForger [Azn Forgesmith] September 30 2005 1:53 PM EDT

This is what i get from the total anti-nub thing: " NUB is fine as long as he/she doesn't make more money and/or pass me"
yes, i have nub too. i dont have much experience with that past but i read a bit.
Ex Camper: I feel bad that you didn't fight to gain exp for months 'cause you choose to gain great USD/cb2. And now you want a way to make to top level in mpr???

Fighter : I have seen people (that i talked to) who forged for months and months and still in top 20 mpr. (inlcuding trained / untrained exp)

Forger: well if you didn't fight, there's no excuse for it now. Forger who bought character from the money they make throughout forging as well. That's another fair way to gain exp.
Again, this is just newbie opinion.

QBJohnnywas September 30 2005 1:54 PM EDT

Somebody thinks I make sense? That's a new one for me!

QBRanger September 30 2005 2:01 PM EDT

ok,
let me put it this way. If someone passes me, great-fine-ok. But for someone to do it in less than 4 months somehow is not right IMO.

Tezmac September 30 2005 2:02 PM EDT

So how many months makes it ok then?

Relic September 30 2005 2:11 PM EDT

If a person fights more than me and subsequently earns more exp and $ money than I do, I do not, nor will ever have a problem with that. It is those that fight less or equal to myself and gain more that I have a problem with. Equal benefits for equal effort. Why is that so hard to understand? I completely agree with the idea that a new player should get a boost of some sort to get them started, but make them put in the time (effort) just like everyone else above them has already. I think the point where a player starts to get 7 BA is completely reasonable to no longer get a bonus. They will just have to fight more than others above them to catch them. Sheesh, it is not like Ranger and myself are being completely unreasonable about this. We would just like to see a change so that it is more "fair" to players who have put in a ton of time to get where they are...

AdminJonathan September 30 2005 2:29 PM EDT

So, let's say we said, "if a new player plays for 3 years, he can be as far along as Glory, who has been playing that long."

But then when he gets done with his 3 years, Glory has been playing for 6 and is still farther along. Sucks to be you, new user!

Bottom line: If you can't deal with new players getting a fair chance to compete, then the sooner you quit, the happier you will be.

And yes, my definition of fair is the only one that matters here.

Wonderpuff September 30 2005 2:30 PM EDT

The thing that gives me most joy in my CB2 life is that the more USD Ranger and DAWG dump into the pit, the larger the NUB get's...

The reason so many people in the middle are being passed quickly is that a couple of guys have passed way beyond the pack through massive (not in RL terms, but in the context of a silly timekill webgame) USD infusions. Unless I'm mistaken, the NUB is based on where those 4 or 5 jokers are at rather than where the pack is.

Tezmac September 30 2005 2:36 PM EDT

So Glory, you're basically saying that since CB2 has been open for, what, 10 months, that a player should have to play totally dedicated for 10 months and then he/she could be justified in catching you? Oh wait, but they couldn't, because you'd be another 10 months ahead of him/her and it just wouldn't be fair to you. You and Ranger are just morons who don't want any competition. I think you guys just need to deal with the fact that Jon wants to make this a competitive game. If you burn 9.5/10 of your BA over a 1 year span, good for you. If a new player burns the same 9.5/10 BA over the period of his/her NUB they deserve to catch you. Honestly, I can't wait for the day you guys get passed and have to actually fight to retain your ranking.

Tezmac September 30 2005 2:37 PM EDT

Bah, wish there was a thread preview, sorry for the echo Jon.

[Tranquility]-USDForger [Azn Forgesmith] September 30 2005 2:44 PM EDT

how many Nub players that can threaten Ranger and the top 10? out of hundreds of new players created the last 30 days.? Let's answer to ourself if this is a majority community issues or not before we getting personal. If just 1 or 2 exception cases do NOT justify the system is flawed.
The player who started Jan 1st can whine as much as they want on how they are not 800k mpr. However, that doesn't reflect on the game, it pretty much up to each player's taken path into mmorpg.
I myself can be classified as trader. Just wait 1 year from now i might start a post about why mpr is stuck at 300k.

Duke September 30 2005 2:45 PM EDT

Since when it impossible to reach TOP10 without a NUB.Proteus is gaining on most ppl and he dont have NUB.CT have done the same with is SM TOE.I believe everyone have a chance to get in the TOP 10.

AdminG Beee September 30 2005 2:48 PM EDT

OK, I normally don't contribute to threads like this and leave the constructive argument to others. I guess one thing has me a little stumped though and I thought I would air it here. I (and presumably others) have no doubt mentioned it in the past but I honestly can find anywhere that it's been answered.

What would be wrong with introducing a "ceiling" to equipment? For example chars <50k MPR (pick any number) can only equip certain + n armor or weaponry. Chars <100k MPR can equip something larger etc etc.
Now, with this in place it would be possible to open up the NUB for anyone who was prepared to hit the "Get NUB" button on their manage character link - of course, this would nuke the MPR of any other char you have. Having a gazillion CB $'s ready for your new character wouldn't help you as you can only wear equipment appropriate to your MPR level.

With this in place the "vets" could restart anytime they wanted to and within 4 months be challenging the top. Sure, eventually all the vets would have the best equipment at the optimal level on all their chars but the ones with the best strat would rise to the top...
Of course if you're 1m MPR and restart then the equipment you had on your 1m MPR char would be no good as you couldn't use it due to the ceiling. This would make for interesting auctions and a very changeable market value depending on who could buy what and when.

QBBarzooMonkey September 30 2005 2:59 PM EDT

Wow. Just wow. An admin needs to change the title of this thread, because "hijacked" doesn't even approach what's happened to it.
Are we in October yet?

AdminJonathan September 30 2005 3:01 PM EDT

because it's trivial to abuse that by selling what you make for USD, GB

Ilovehellokitty September 30 2005 3:02 PM EDT

Doesn't matter how hard Ranger is trying to hide his mpr. his tattoo gain faster than mine. Can someone confirm this or i am just imagine this.

Nixon Jibfest September 30 2005 3:35 PM EDT

lol, good observation Juju,

I guess the title "Not a NUB discussion" and starting the thread with " Note: this is not a discussion about NUB" was futile on my part.

Relic September 30 2005 4:25 PM EDT

"I completely agree with the idea that a new player should get a boost of some sort to get them started, but make them put in the time (effort) just like everyone else above them has already. I think the point where a player starts to get 7 BA is completely reasonable to no longer get a bonus. They will just have to fight more than others above them to catch them."

What part of this did you not read?

Either I am not explaining myself adequately (possible) or you are not getting my point (possible). There absolutely should be a bonus for new players to get them to a point (7 BA Refresh seems reasonable). After that, they should be just like all the rest of the players. If they fight more then they will catch the people above them in MPR. Plain and simple.

AdminJonathan September 30 2005 4:32 PM EDT

In other words, assuming the vets don't slack off the new user will never ever catch up.

That's not a "solution" that interests me.

Relic September 30 2005 4:33 PM EDT

If the vets never slack off, no one should catch them, NUB or otherwise.

Relic September 30 2005 4:35 PM EDT

What is the point in being the best otherwise? If you play the most, have the best gear, and a really solid strat you SHOULD be the best for as long as you maintain your dedication to the game.

AdminJonathan September 30 2005 4:44 PM EDT

I guess Dawg owes Ranger an apology, then

Relic September 30 2005 4:49 PM EDT

Ranger has no reason to compete with Dawg because they are in the same clan. Also, Score does not indicate best. MPR is king Jonathan, you know that. :)

AdminJonathan September 30 2005 4:51 PM EDT

score averaged over a sufficient time period is really a better indication of how well you're doing

QBBarzooMonkey September 30 2005 5:00 PM EDT

If this game had a finite time frame, and a winner could be declared, then your point wouldn't be lost. But in an ongoing, evolving game like this, if there was no way for anyone to catch you "for as long as you maintain your dedication to the game ", you eventually you would stop being "the best", and simply become "the player with a monopoly on the top spot". Eventually, everyone who can't ever get there loses any interest at all, and the loss of competition keeps trickling downhill until there's no one left but you.

But at least then you'd get to eat all of the crab puffs and get the biggest trophy at the winner's banquet - oh wait - there isn't one, is there - I'm confusing this with of a bowling league </sarcasm>

Isn't that kind of what started happening with CB1? At least that's what I've gathered from all of the "remember when" posts...

Relic September 30 2005 5:00 PM EDT

Only you would know that Jonathan. :) Score has always been illusive to me, one day I am up a ton and the next I am down a ton. I am not privy to the code, so I cannot argue that point.

AdminJonathan September 30 2005 5:01 PM EDT

exactly, juju

QBOddBird September 30 2005 5:02 PM EDT

/me cheers for Jon

I agree, NUB keeps the game competitive. No point in making it stale just so the vets will stop whining about missing out on the new players' candy.

Relic September 30 2005 5:13 PM EDT

I never played CB1, so I will take your word for it. If that is what you are trying to combat Jonathan, then the NUB will combat that aspect of CB2 happening. It will conversely anger your older dedicated players that they are not getting equal reward for equal effort. It is a trade-off and I see that you have made it clear where you stand. (If given the choice, you would side with the new players rather than the ones who have been dedicated to cb2 for a long time.)

QBRanger September 30 2005 5:16 PM EDT

That brings up the point that I have made a few times in the past.

In a game that does not have a finite time frame, why does the NUB need to let people catch the top in 1/3 the time. Should it not be more gradual? People have asked how long. I have stated many times the NUB should let you get near the top in the same time frame the game has been going on. IE: since the game is 9 full months old now, then in 9 months, playing hard, you should be able to catch up to the top MPR then. Basically a 85% NUB for the entire time, or whatever amount Jon figures out is correct to accomplish that.

Imagine when I joined in CB1 in Dec 04 if I was given a NUB to let me catch Spid in MPR in just 4 months, after Todd and Spydah put in 3 years levelling Spid. How fair would that be?

I know the NUB may be lengthened in the future or adjusted as it was this month already, but right now, IMO, 4 months which is 1/3 the game (when the NUB would end) is far to quick/accelerated for the game as I see it.

Thats all I will write about the NUB for a while. I can see my reasoning is not accepted by some people who think I am out for my own good. That is far from the truth. I want to see a fair game and right now I personally feel the NUB is not fair to all. It's just my opinion and all those that feel the need to get personal, I guess its a free forum.

AdminJonathan September 30 2005 5:21 PM EDT

"Should it not be more gradual?"

No.

Remember, part of the design goal is to encourage new players.

If seeing new players get encouraged bothers you, then grow up.

Wonderpuff September 30 2005 5:58 PM EDT

Is it coincidence that the people most upset are the ones who have dumped large sums of USD into what is for most people a time kill web game?

AdminJonathan September 30 2005 6:17 PM EDT

good point

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] September 30 2005 7:12 PM EDT

Wonderpuff, i have not spent a single USD on this game, and i think ranger has good point. We were here for 9 months now, (longer for us cb1'ers), why not have whoever joins this month play for nine months to finally be able to be #1, cuz thats how long everybody had, and would be equivilent to Rangers amount of play. Fair = Fair.......9 Months = 9 Months (9 Months <(Not Equal)> 3 Months) And they'd still be ABLE to reach the #1 spot. New players will still come without even a NUB, so why would it be worse if you just extended the period of the NUB and just lessened the %?

QBRanger September 30 2005 7:23 PM EDT

Good Point.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 30 2005 7:36 PM EDT

It's late again, I'll try to be constructive! ;)

"Eventually, everyone who can't ever get there loses any interest at all, and the loss of competition keeps trickling downhill until there's no one left but you."

Everyone who can't ever get there... Which is everyone not in the top ten currently, that also has finished their bonus period.

"Bottom line: If you can't deal with new players getting a fair chance to compete, then the sooner you quit, the happier you will be.

And yes, my definition of fair is the only one that matters here."

Well, my definition of fair difers from your Jon. So I've stopped fighitng. Unfortunatly, it's not made me any happier. Sucks to be me eh?

"In other words, assuming the vets don't slack off the new user will never ever catch up.

That's not a "solution" that interests me."

It's not a solution that interests me either. Making the game work so that everyone, regardless of when they created their caracter, withard effort of course, is.

NUB aside for a second, giving *EVERYBODY* in the game just one shot at being competitive is poor. It trivilaises effort, srategy and planning. Heavn forbid your ISP messes up and cut's your connection off for a week or two, or something else unexpected happens. Tough. You just lost your shot buddy. Go find another game.

Maybe I just like to cater for existing people more.

New user, new blood should always be encouraged and supported. But never at the expense of exisitng memebrs. That's just selling everyone short.

"Is it coincidence that the people most upset are the ones who have dumped large sums of USD into what is for most people a time kill web game?"

Yes I'm upset. No, again it's not because I can't reach Ranger and I'm stamping my feet. But apart from Supportership, purchasing every new supporter item, a couple of namings and some early purchases when there was little currency in the game, I've not spent 'large sums' of USD.

Buy fair's fair. And Jon has ruled the NUB fair. We can't change his thinking on this. It's not fair in my eyes, but my opinion doesn't count for anything.

Good luck in a years time, when everyone is going to be passed in a couple of months by an existing players roommate/sibling/partner who's been told how the game works. I hope your efforts don't feel too trivialised.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 1 2005 10:08 AM EDT

Well I completely agree with you GentlemanLoser and yet again I agree with you Ranger. I started back in May and I have gone through the NUB period.... Yet I wasted my chance to rise to the top by trying my own strategies, training, and untraining. Even starting new characters over and over till I got a strat that worked the way I liked.

I do feel that the NUB is too powerful at the moment but that could be adjusted at any time. A little late but it could still happen. The New Players should be a little limited in their approach to being in the top tier. 4 months time just isn't enough time to devote to a game to be part of the top. Limit them in some way or another Jon just to keep the game fair for Vet's and NUB's alike.

When we all agree on a solution and the arguing and flaming goes down, and these personal attacks on each other.... what are we coming to nowadays..... shame on us! Hopefully we can all agree on something in the near future for if not the CB2 life as we know it will vanish and we will wish for the good ole days of our youth in CB2.

This is just IMO and even some of my $0.02 worth. Flame me if you will, but just remember that when you flame one of us it reflects back on all of us. I don't say much very often, but when I say something, I really mean it.

Maybe one of these days the Vet's and the NUB's can live in harmony, then again maybe not. Enjoy your morning/day/evening everybody.

Mikel October 2 2005 3:21 PM EDT

What I don't like about the nub is that Jon felt it was necessary to take two months off of mine, when others like Kitty have already reached the same MPR that I was at when mine expired, yet they still have their NUB. I didn't overly complain even with the nerf in my time, I just took advantage of what was given to me and used it as best as I could, when I lost those 2 months, There was no way I could even come close to reaching Rangers/Bast's MPR. I would need both to take off some considerable amount of time to even catch up to them, and that's just not happening.

My point is that he's not being totally fair about who he nerfs.
And yes if my NUB had finished out it's time, I would've easily been 100k MPR higher than Ranger by the time it was over, not to mention my Tattoo would be the biggest in the game.

All in all this whole thing hasn't been setup with Fair being in mind. So what do I do about it? nothing, my complaints will fall on deaf ears, I was a NUB, so it's all two-fold no matter what I do or say. I like the NUB, and I agree that as you reach certain levels, your bonus should decrease, to keep in line with getting to the top if you absolutely spent every BA possible between the NOW and when your NUB expires. It's not Jon's fault if you miss BA.

AdminJonathan October 2 2005 4:13 PM EDT

Mikel keeps trying to spread this disinformation. I don't know why; it certainly doesn't make others sympathetic towards him, that I've noticed.

I'll repeat what I've said before: Mikel lost NUB duration in proportion to how much he benefited from the BA purchase price bug that existed for a while. There's a changelog post about this, and the other players affected. (Mikel would have you think he was unfairly singled out here. Not so.)

(I'll also point out that PR achieved during the influence of NUB will naturally go up over the existence of the game; complaining about this only demonstrates a thorough lack of understanding -- remarkable, given the number of posts about it recently.)

Since asking Mikel to stop being disingenuous about this hasn't worked, I'm fining him 1M. Perhaps that will get his attention more effectively.

Blarg October 2 2005 5:56 PM EDT

Listen Closely:

There is no proof that the NUB is overpowered. Ranger is #1. #2, DAWG, had the NUB and also used a lot of USD to power his way to the near-top. Hellokitty is gaining MPR very quickly, yet s/he is still not #1. When someone beats ranger with the NUB by a couple 100k score/PR/MPR, whichever, then you can all complain.

GL: The NUB does *not* trivialize strategies and effort. With out a good strat, effort, and the NUB, no new user could ever beat ranger. If a new user started today and used a horrible strat, they would never get anywhere.

I think the NUB is one of Jon's best ways to keep the game interesting to new players who feel they need to be near #1 for this game to have a point. I do disagree with thinking that about this game, but there is no way to change everyone's mindset and if there was I wouldn't try. Everyone has different likes and dislikes.

Now, how about we get back on the topic of Pat's suggestion.

Mikel October 2 2005 6:52 PM EDT

Jon,
I have mention this less than 4 times.
I think 1 mil is excessive. I'm not here to argue with you over your beloved NUB, I am merely pointing out what happened with me. Raijin started about 4 days before I did, he lost a week and so did I for the BA thing, then you came back over that and took more time with no explanation, I have asked repeatedly for one and none has been given. So what do you expect me to think?
AllI ever hear is Vets complaining about the NUB and I get a major time reduction.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 2 2005 7:12 PM EDT

Plarg, listen closely. I think you've missed the point of my comments.

"GL: The NUB does *not* trivialize strategies and effort. With out a good strat, effort, and the NUB, no new user could ever beat ranger. If a new user started today and used a horrible strat, they would never get anywhere."

I don't care whether a new user is clever enough, hardcore enough, rich enough or connected enough to be able to reach the number one spot at the end of thier NUB period. It might be the case that no new user at the moment has enough of all 4, it might be otherwise.

*shrug*

What the NUB (in it's current form) does is trivialize strategy and effort of those that no longer have a bonus. At the moment it can be easily seen when looking at the not so hardcore players here. Like myself. All my effort (not at the same level as Ranger to be fair) over 10 months passed in 1.

And if you tihnk I'm the only person effected by this, you're being dumb.

From Jon;

"I'll also point out that PR achieved during the influence of NUB will naturally go up over the existence of the game; complaining about this only demonstrates a thorough lack of understanding"

I understand what this means, and so will everyone else that doesn't, in a while.

In order to be able to reach the number 1 spot (let's say in 2 years time) a new users rewards in the bonus period (however long it will be by then...) will have to be great.

So great, they leap past the poeple below them in a blink of an eye.

At the rate I was playing, in 2 years time, I'll still be putting in half the effort as Ranger (assuming he's still here). If a new users with the current increased rewards can pass me in a month, I dread to think how quickly they would be able to pass me on their way to the top in 2 years time. 2 weeks? 1?

If that hasn't trivialiszed my strategy or effort, I'll never explain it to you.

Hell even if the rate stays the same, and it takes most new players only a month to pass me in 2 years time, that's still a slap in the face. 2 years, 10 months worth of playing passed in a month. That's why I don't fight any more.

On a seperate note, restarting a new charcater now is a no go. That in itself I think is a bad thing. What with the PR-NW link and farms having to win to get rewards, there really is no reason to have more than your main character, unless you need storage space.

spydah October 2 2005 7:29 PM EDT

The NuB reminds me of FoD.

Except this time, it's going to win.

/\88/\

QBRanger October 2 2005 7:35 PM EDT

Spydah,

In the old days of cb1, was there that much uproar over the FOD?

Mikel October 2 2005 8:09 PM EDT

FoD = Finger of Death 50% of the time it was an insta kill, is the way it was described to me.

Way over powered, it seems to me that it wouldn't matter what your strat is, starting up a team with 4 of those minions running around would just about win most fights.

NSFY October 2 2005 8:11 PM EDT

No - anyone could use it.

Blarg October 2 2005 8:31 PM EDT

GL, I misunderstood you, I thought you meant it trivialized the new user's use of good strats and effort. I understand now, and I agree it does trivialize our efforts, but there is no other way to have it allowing new users to get to #1 and make it so our efforts arn't trivialized. Personally, I don't really care if someone gets to where I am in a week. I care about my own work and progress, not theirs.

BrandonLP October 2 2005 10:24 PM EDT

Keep in mind old CB1 spells had a "chance" of working and FoD was insanely expensive. Even my single tank who held MPB and all that other good jazz couldn't afford it if his life depended on it. Rewards were nothing like they are now in CB1 as well. Yes, I was around back then for the beginnings of CB1. ;) I remember when there wasn't BA and you could farm the same person over and over and over again. In fact, when I quit, I gave my Loch (the most powerful weapon, hands down) to Spid.

In any case, instead of working on destroying or modifying the NUB (since Jon seems to like the present form), work on creating a solid VUB and present that to Jon instead.

Undertow October 3 2005 3:33 AM EDT

I have one problem with the NUB, which hasn't been stated by anyone else and although I don't think it matters to much, I'll voice it.

My problem with the NUB is not what you can accomplish in CB in the same time as Ranger, but what you miss sacraficing in life.

Let's say that, god forbid, right now a loved one of Ranger's dies. Ranger has to take off at least a week, and probably plays less over the next month. Ranger loses number one.

Now, it took a good what, 10 months of this game that Ranger has been banking on the fact that nothing like that happens. I'm sure Ranger hasn't hit every BA. I'm sure there's been r/l sintuations where he's HAD to miss some. Maybe even for more than 24 hours.

The NUB doesn't take this into account. The idea seems like it's to take the effort that Rangers packed into the last 10 months and direct it into a small time frame of "catch up." But with this smaller time frame comes less of a chance for life to nip the butt of the NU.

Does that makes sense? It's a very similar arguement to the "they don't put in the same effort" arguement, but not the same. It's... like... "They don't have the same chance of life screwing them over."

Karmic Mishap [Soup Ream] October 3 2005 3:38 AM EDT

Sure they do! A new user could completely MISS their NUB after paying for supportership due to some kind of life problem. That's the downside of the 'compact catch-up time' element. That's way more damaging to their character than Ranger missing a few thousand BA. Ranger _may_ fall below the #1 spot.... in the top ten. Whereas a new user could be stuck at ground zero listening to the wind of other characters rush by.... The proposed New Character Bonus (or whatever the frel everybody wants to call the idea being discussed) would help these people, at least.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 3 2005 4:48 AM EDT

"Heavn forbid your ISP messes up and cut's your connection off for a week or two, or something else unexpected happens. Tough. You just lost your shot buddy. Go find another game."

;)

Vaynard [Fees Dirt Cheap] October 3 2005 4:56 AM EDT

Okay, I've been trying my best to stay out of all these arguments. I have a strong opinion, but a ton of others state it again and again. So I'll leave it.

But I have to say, the people that say the NUB isn't overpowered because a new user hasn't beaten Ranger yet is retarded. I feel more stupid for having listened to you say it. Just because the top echelons aren't beaten doesn't prove anything. All I hear on topics of balance of this or that, or NUB for that matter, is, "since ______ (insert FB, AXBow, ELBow, NUB, etc) users aren't beating Ranger, it's not overpowered / broken." I have heard it so many times, and yet I know I'll hear it again.

When you compare to something, PLEASE- compare to the general case, NOT the exception. The players at the top are there for a reason. They devote the time, thought, and yes even money to getting there. If those types aren't at the top, then something would definitely be massively wrong. But things can still be wrong without being major.

Okay, I said I would stay away from this, but I have to put in my two cents. I hate the NUB. Good concept in theory, let new players have a chance! But you know, communism is great in theory too, and look where that went. There are so many things wrong with NUB, it needs to be reworked completely. Ground up. Here's some reasons:

1) Creates hate- veterans are rightfully upset to see someone do what they did but in say a month instead of 6. How nice for them to have tried all that time. And even if you don't agree that isn't good, you can't argue that people get jaded to see all the time they spent here didn't count since they started earlier. Show me a player without the NUB, and I'll show you someone jealous of newbies.
2) Incentive to cheat- come on. This is so plain to see it's ridiculous. If for any reason you're not already very high up, which many if not most were, you have a GOOD reason to multi. Why not? Scrap your substandard team, forget them, find a new place with a new IP and start over.
3) Do newbies really get helped? If they're truly new, they won't know what's going on. Many people I've shown this game only play a little, maybe once every day or two. And how is this 'chance to reach the top' program helping these new players? To be truthful, I think the NUB isn't for new players but for those that already know how to play. Sure, there are the occassional few that log in to CB, instantaneously grasp all the concepts, talk to their mentor a couple of minutes, then proceed to rise 500k PR in a month. But seriously, the 'new users' this helps are impossible to differentiate from older players starting over.
4) Real new users need time to learn. Then they should get whatever bonuses you feel they need. What kind of deal is it to give someone a ride in the space shuttle and only start teaching them their necessary tasks when you're taking off? Why not let them learn a little while, then give them a huge present? As is, many new players probably squander their NUB and kick themselves later.

I could list much more, but it's late and I'm tired. Anway, here's my few suggestions. None of them are probably too workable, but ah well. Here:

1) NUB kicks in AFTER the first two weeks of play. Let the kiddies learn how to ride their tricycle before throwing them on the interstate.
2) Have it be based on a set number of battles with bonus, instead of time played. Things come up. My friend in basic effectively lost all his chances of NUB when he left. Don't force new users to try to power level as fast as possible. You'll only burn them out and discourage many from continuing to play. Or maybe they'll quit and restart once they learn they squandered their meal ticket to the top.
3) Give current older users SOME sort of an option here. Heck, why not if they so desire let them get a full reset and set their NUB at half the usual? Just let them do something, and you'll get rid of that resentment and jealousy to a huge decree. Wouldn't that alone be worth it?
4) And I like Pat's idea in his initial post. Let people experiment a little, have fun. Let people grow small teams faster. Take out the huge cash rewards. We wouldn't care, some people just like to try new ideas.

Sorry about all that. Hope some of that made since. Enough for now, good night all.

IndependenZ October 3 2005 10:41 AM EDT

Wonderpuff, September 30 2005 5:58 PM EDT
"Is it coincidence that the people most upset are the ones who have dumped
large sums of USD into what is for most people a time kill web game?"

Jonathan, September 30 2005 6:17 PM EDT
"good point"

Since I pretty much turned this thread into a 'flame fest', I might as well respond to these words of Wonderpuff, which Jonathan seems to agree with. The only USD I have spent on CB was earned by playing it. A bit for supporter status in both CB1 and 2, a bit for naming in CB1 and I used the USD that I had left after selling out in CB1 for buying cash in the early days of CB2. In total, that would be about $65.

To be honest, yes, I really don't like the NUB the way it is. So, is it coincidence that the people most upset are the ones who have dumped large sums of USD into what is for most people a time kill web game? Quite a generalization there, Wonderpuff. Yes, I whine about the NUB. No, I haven't spent large sums of USD on CB2. That alone makes your statement invalid.

If that's not the reason I personally don't like the NUB the way it is, there must be another reason I'm upset about the NUB, right? Oh yeah, I can't cope with the fact I 'missed' my chance to be in the top 10! Or I just can't stand new players who do better than me in a month. Yes, there it is, the latter must be it. With that in mind, I must be really bad at fighting in CB2. With 40.000 battles won, you can already surpass my character which I fought 130.000 battles with. No more sleep, no more dates with my girlfriend, no more college or family meetings. That's what playing CB2 requires, if you're a veteran player. Maybe spending some USD can improve my awkward situation as well? New players might not be able to surpass me that easily, then.

I don't think I'm the only one who refuses to use my well-deserved real money in a time kill web game. Not that CB2 only is a time killer for me, by the way. But that doesn't matter, does it? All the people who keep saying the NUB is unfair for the older players, are missing the bigger picture. They don't get it and only care about themselves and the USD they've spent. Including me. Sure.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] October 3 2005 11:10 AM EDT

I'm waiting for the day when some NUB comes along and gets to 100k MPR in the first measly day...

Then we'll see the current NUB users complain about how the NUB is then overpowered, but yet it wasnt when the had it...

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] October 3 2005 1:02 PM EDT

I count over 5 posts from Jon which agree with the anti-anti-NUB and flame the anti-NUB. How many times does he have to strongly disagree with your complaints and tell you that this place is better off without you rather than pushing away the new players?
I'm not the biggest fan of it but I whole heartedly agree with it, I accepted that I wouldn't make it with the amount of time I play and no matter what anyone says neither will a new player, it takes constant dedication from whoever wants to be top to have any chance of being there and staying there regardless of NUB or not.
Any sort of veteran bonus regardless of restrictions will still be open to abuse from at least one angle and still defeats the whole point of the NUB. If you missed your chance for top spot by not playing either play for the fun of playing or don't bother but for god sake please stop complaining about the same thing which is only ever going to be moderated very occassionally but will never be removed or a veteran equivalent introduced.

HunterFrei October 3 2005 3:42 PM EDT

Here is how I think the NUB should work.

Player 1 started at the beginning of CB2.
Player 2 starts later receiving a NUB.

Player 1 has played for T months, missing no BA, earning Y experience.
Player 2 has played for T/2 months, missing no BA, earning Y experience.

So, Player 2 would receive 2x the experience (+100%) per fight compared to Player 1. This would make it that the NUB would be a flat +100% but the length would be half the life-span of CB2, or T/2.

So, if Player 2 started on Nov. 1, he would have to fight just as much per day as Player 1 for 10 months, since CB2 would have been going for 10 months, to catch up.

HunterFrei October 3 2005 3:46 PM EDT

Correction: The NUB would be equal to the current life-span of CB2 upon joining.

Caedmon [Revenge of the Forgers] October 3 2005 3:48 PM EDT

Understood, Hunter. But will someone explain to me why a player using all BA for T months should _ever_ be caught by someone using all BA for T-6 months?

Actually...don't bother explaining it. I'll get depressed and probably not play for a day or two, falling ever further behind...

Reebok October 3 2005 7:39 PM EDT

God I hate internet crashes... let's see if I can retype this entire response with all the anger that I had when I wrote it the first time.

Reading through this thread really made me laugh (and realize how rude people can be), but I had to ask myself a few questions.

1. Is there any chance of me ever reaching an even remotely competitive status in this game, even if I were to never leave my computer and only play CB?

2. How does our current system of "less work = more rewards" make any sense at all?

3. Why doesn't everyone below all the "great NUB players" who don't currently have a NUB themselves simply sell everything off and use all their newfound USD to create a new account with an awesome character? (I realize this is against the rules, but what other option are we who "blew our chance" left with, and does anyone seriously think this hasn't happened already?)

4. Why does anyone help new players at all? The mentor system is like giving someone the knife to stab you in the back?

And finally...

5. Seriously, Jon, are you pure evil? You have to, at least on some level, realize that this doesn't make any sense and will probably eventually ruin your game. Maybe you just like messing with people, or maybe you're only interested in the money in these new player's pockets. I don't know, but you're treating some people who are very dedicated to something YOU created pretty badly, and I know I wouldn't be proud of myself for that.

Actually, I had a lot more questions that I asked myself, but this is a PG game after all.

So where does this leave me? Basically I'm stuck in this evil cycle. I want to quit playing, because, well, the game has basically become no fun for me anymore (kind of like in Monopoly when it gets to the point where it's REALLY obvious who's going to win), but I don't want to quit because of all the time I've dedicated to playing. And what brings it all full circle is Jon pretty clearly (although not in these words exactly)that dedication pretty much means nothing in the CB world.

So what's a guy to do?

Reebok October 3 2005 7:42 PM EDT

I'd like to rephrase #4.

The mentor system is more like taking the knife that someone was given to stab you with, sharpening it for them, drawing a bullseye on your back, and walking backwards towards the person.

This sucks, because I always liked helping new players, but now I'd rather discourage people from playing.

Sad, sad, sad.

Relic October 3 2005 7:42 PM EDT

You bring up some interesting points Reebok.

Nixon Jibfest October 3 2005 7:47 PM EDT

Who the heck changed the title of my post?
Since I'm the original author, it makes it look like I intentionally started a NUB flamefest. What gives?

QBBarzooMonkey October 3 2005 8:45 PM EDT

Okay, I just finished a week long test. To preface, I started January 28th, so if I had an NUB, it was minimal and is long gone. I took a month off from mid May - mid June. A week ago Saturday at noon, I was right around 200k MPR on my main character.
I bought all my BA, and timed my BA usage to make maximum use of XP crazy time then, on Tuesday, and again this past Saturday. I played my farm character the majority of both Sundays to eliminate those days. The rest of the week, I played as casually as I normally did (Monday, Wednesday, slacked on Thursday, normal on Friday). I pulled in a little extra during crazy money times just to pay for BA and ammo I did get some CB2$ for namings & such, but if you look at Wonka Factory, you'll see I didn't spend any until late this afternoon, after my test was done.
I got low to average Clan Bonus every day except today, during which I got excellent bonuses. Add all this up and you get "1 week of casual, except for crazy XP time, play".

I added 30k MPR in a week this way. If I stayed at this rate, and didn't step up at all, that would be 120k more MPR at the end of the month. 1,080,000k MPR after 9 months. That's casual play. Imagine it if I played like some of the most hardcore players.

My point is, the more times you stamp your feet and say "not fair, it's impossible!" Then the harder a guy like me is going to work to prove you wrong. And I know I'm not the only guy like me.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 3 2005 8:47 PM EDT

Eh? Say what?

Quark October 3 2005 11:40 PM EDT

I agree with JuJu - my MPR growth with Maranello is quite reasonable given my level of play. I've kept pace with several NUB's too.

Special J October 3 2005 11:48 PM EDT

Good job JuJu, but your math is off sir.

MPR growth slows.

Relic October 3 2005 11:50 PM EDT

I just jumped about 30K MPR in a day or so....well, that was after hiring my 4th minion for 3.8 mil cb2. :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 4 2005 4:30 AM EDT

*Sigh* JuJu, so much for;

"My point is, the more times you stamp your feet and say "not fair, it's impossible!" Then the harder a guy like me is going to work to prove you wrong. And I know I'm not the only guy like me."

You know you've just highlighted one of the problems with the NUB don't you? Highlighted the "Not Fair" portion?

"If I stayed at this rate (Casual Play), and didn't step up at all, that would be 120k more MPR at the end of the month."

Compared to the 400K to 500K People with the Bonus have shown to make in a month?

QBBarzooMonkey October 4 2005 7:09 AM EDT

Yes, yes I realize that MPR growth slows. And it'll slow for those with NUB also.

But my real point was to say that every time I see another "not fair, I'm going to quit" ot "I quit" posts, it motivates me to play even harder, climbing over the characters you leave behind. So I guess I'm saying thanks for the inspiration...

Ilovehellokitty October 4 2005 7:14 AM EDT

Juju and GentlementLoser
If you think you clicked the same amount as me per day then i totally agree to whatever you said. But you don't, so....

IndependenZ October 4 2005 7:30 AM EDT

Per day? Very nice answer, Kitty! Truly, I admire your dedication to CB2. I'm not attacking you personally, I think you are a great player who deserves such a high character. But, the thing is, GentlemanLoser had to fight three times as much to get his character half the size. True, he did not fight as much as yourself per day. But even if he started to use every single BA from now on, like you do, he wouldn't be able to catch up with you. It would cost him about twice as much battles won. So, even with your kind of admirable dedication, it wouldn't get him anywhere near you. Does that sound fair?

(NUB is now about 100% extra rewards, right? Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 4 2005 7:31 AM EDT

No kitty, but then I don't have the luxury of being able to cram 10 months of BA into a month. I probably could click for the same amount as you do currently if I focus for a single month.

Sutekh certainly could. And did.

But you still miss the point.

QBRanger October 4 2005 7:33 AM EDT

Kitty:

Let me make this very simple for you and other who think the NUB is fair:

Person A: Started Jan 1, clicked like mad from day 1 for about 4 months then slowed down----> about 350k MPR.

Person B: Started Sept 1, Clicked like mad from their day 1 for 1 month-----> 500k MPR

There have been and still are people playing that way since the game first came out, that is, clicked like mad and then after 4-5 months slowed down. It is quite difficult to keep up a hectic pace for 10 months. But it is easy to do so for 2-3 months.

I really dislike when new players say "I have been playing like mad from day 1". Plenty of the older players have for just as long as you then slowed down.

The reasons Player A is only 350k MPR include the inability to fight higher characters, the lack of higher tattoos at the time, and the testing of strategies. Things Player B do not have to consider.

That is one of the main problems I have with the NUB.

QBJohnnywas October 4 2005 7:35 AM EDT

I don't know if this is mentioned anywhere but when exactly do people become veterans? Are we only talking about those people who started before the NUB came along or are we talking about any player that doesn't currently have the NUB?

Because if we are really talking about everyone being given a fair chance then ex NUB's would have to be eligible for a veterans bonus too. In which case if they're clever about it they can just go from one bonus to another and take over the world....

Ilovehellokitty October 4 2005 7:51 AM EDT

Ignore what i said, sorry, i just woke up and missed 4 bot checks (sleepy) lost about 110k. Kinda abnormal feeling about that...sorry!

[Tranquility]-USDForger [Azn Forgesmith] October 4 2005 6:02 PM EDT

After a lot of thoughts into this-MegamanV original Idea-, (of course no personal attack here), I see a great potential of mpr inflation. To those who play lots of mmorpg, you would know what i mean. Any comment? Input?

WeaponX October 4 2005 7:15 PM EDT

"but how about increasing the XP bonus for vets with low PR characters so we can reach a decent PR. Isn't it just as important to retain vet players? " read the part in bold part then read my post again. he wants an initial boost i want a boost as long as the NUB big difference

Jordan23 October 4 2005 7:36 PM EDT


Just take me as a example:
Start same time as Kitty,2 month ago.
Make CP like mad so i click maybe more than anybody.
Put 100 usd$.
ME:
Score / PR / MPR: 901,576 / 574,599 / 365,466

Kitty:Score / PR / MPR: 1,062,477 / 833,213 / 583,515

People will say ,what you have done for the last 7 Month.For personal reason i stop playing.So why i cannot have a VUB when i make my coming back from the 7 month off.Only solution for that kind of problem is a VUB.

Mikel October 4 2005 10:39 PM EDT

Technically, you already have a VUB, have any of you ever seen the spoils of the top 5-6 characters? It's horrible, and especially so for me when I'm used to getting 2-3 times as much as I am now.

In some people's cases we can't hit up!! Those of you that can, get better spoils. So the higher up you get the slower your growth.

Now I agree that the NUB is a bit overkill, but it's there and apparently nothing you say/do about it is going to change Jon's mind.
Lastly, I agree the rewards are too high, too fast, they should gradually decrease as your BA levels rise, this would've given me a chance to play with my strategy more so than I have up to now because I don't want to fall out of the MPR race now. I dunno why you guys all train so much stuff, I try my best to stick with Training EO/ED stuff, it's only a 95% loss to untrain and I can recover fast from the slight loss.
DD's are 92%, Skills 90%, Str/Dex 88%, HP 85%.

And no, the NUB was at 105% when I started, so it has to be higher than that now. I'm guessing at least 150%. Some of my mentees a few months back were getting 130%.

Jordan23 October 4 2005 11:26 PM EDT

Just for your information Mikel the NUB its about 180% now.

QBRanger October 4 2005 11:43 PM EDT

And that is after the 15% loss that occurred late last month?

[MC]Triumph October 5 2005 1:16 AM EDT

theres no way the nubs 180% now i started 10 days ago and mines only 155%

[T]Vestax October 5 2005 2:11 AM EDT

Better to be on top getting horrible rewards then to be on the bottom getting good ones.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 5 2005 2:13 AM EDT

maybe it's based on rangers trained MPR not VPR...with that and his minion buying, it could have gone up a bit.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 5 2005 3:15 AM EDT

I doubt the rewards are that bad at the top. You get slightly less from fighting down. Especially as the top ten have a penalty exemption from fihgting down.

Of course, in the most part they can't boost their rewards from fighting up, but fighting down isn't a problem for them.

Now, the poor sucker in 11th place on the other hand.... ;)


Besides, if the rewards got really bad in the top ten, people below would have a hope of catching them. Which they don't.

Heavy October 5 2005 6:54 AM EDT

Back on topic.

It will be nice to have a
bonus to reach your first 100k char faster :D

It will encourage those low pr "vets" ;)

AdminShade October 5 2005 10:52 AM EDT

Bottomfeeder bonus!

bonus for low pr veterans to make them a bit able to get to lets say 1/4th of the highest MPR and then that bonus disappears again

(would be a 75% of NUB bonus perhaps)

Mikel October 5 2005 9:39 PM EDT

Some of you either missed or avoided what I was trying to point out.
If you can hit up, you get better rewards, thus move up the charts faster than say someone at the top hitting down. Thus the top grows slower than those at the bottom and middle ranges.

[Tranquility]-USDForger [Azn Forgesmith] October 5 2005 9:46 PM EDT

I agree with Mikel there.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] October 6 2005 1:50 AM EDT

But....What does a 75% VUB that only last to 1/4 of what the NUB can do to frighten the top players? They'll get better rewards, but will be shot down when they do hit that 1/4 mark....

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 6 2005 3:03 AM EDT

Mikel, as NW can now no longer boost your abilities above your PR, how can people fight (significantly) higher now?

We can't get another Hoken here, Jon has stopped that cold.

Heavy October 8 2005 12:43 PM EDT

"But....What does a 75% VUB that only last to 1/4 of what the NUB can do to frighten the top players? They'll get better rewards, but will be shot down when they do hit that 1/4 mark.... "

More fun for those less active players :D
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001XZU">Bonus for veterans.</a>