Why forge? (in General)

miteke [Superheros] October 19 2005 9:14 AM EDT

I tried forging under the new rules for econ clans and it still does not make any economic sense to forge. Here are the stats I came up with.

When I forge at 75% I make about $250 per BA. When I fight I make $225 and gain about 150 experience. Why the heck would anyone forge unless their team just sucks at fighting? Even that $25 difference is lost when one considers owning a tattoo (you gain at least that much money in value on your tattoo with the experience).

So why do you forgers out there do it? Because you like it? I certainly don't. All it takes is a slip in concentration and you lose a bunch of BAs as that nasty little dwarf undoes all your work. There's no strategy, no thought at all except remembering your place in the cycle and hope nothing disturbs you until you end the cycle.

Unless things change the only way I would forge is if there was no one else out there to forge for me and I'd have to pay 100% to the blacksmith if I didn't.

48Zach October 19 2005 9:30 AM EDT

i forge and i mak about 600k a week doing it.

you see im not Score / PR / MPR: 862,162 / 547,820 / 452,389
like u , im only like 122k MPR , so i only get like 150$ a fight . make almost double by forging :)

miteke [Superheros] October 19 2005 10:38 AM EDT

Hi Zack.

I don't see why my MPR comes into it. I make more fighting AND forging with a higher MPR. Score/MPR is significant since a higher value for that means your team is going to make more at fighting than forging, but most folks can manage the ratio I've got with my char even without lots of gear.

Could you test your numbers and see what you make per BA fighting vs. forging?

Keep in mind that the forging income is 75% NW - forge costs so that 600K may not be profit. I'd really like to see the numbers for some folks that consider forging successful.

bartjan October 19 2005 11:37 AM EDT

Forging does not scale the same way as battle rewards does, compared wth MPR... so MPR plays a great role in your decision to forge or not.

QBRanger October 19 2005 12:39 PM EDT

Just remember those with the NUB get that bonus to their forging so those numbers may be skewed.

AdminJonathan October 19 2005 12:52 PM EDT

actually, forge rewards are a constant multiple of fight rewards, at a given MPR

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] October 19 2005 12:59 PM EDT

how about give econ clans a bank to get interest on money over a period of a week & 2 weeks, 10% and 15%

I know its been brought up before, but this would really give a reason for people to join eco's. Eco's are good right now, but its not as good if you are in the #1 standard clan.

- OR -

Make it so Eco clans have ranks, and #1 ranked clan get 15% interest in a bank per week and #2 gets 14.6% interest per week, etc. just like standard clans get with exp (and $$?)

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] October 19 2005 1:07 PM EDT

I can see how that wouldnt work, but maybe it builds like every 10 minutes, and whatever the percent is for that ten minutes, raise it by a certain number, so that if a clan was at #1 the whole week, it will add up to 15% total added for the week.

Or make it raise per week, and whatever the clan's average rank was for the week, raise the money in the bank by that percent # accordingly.

miteke [Superheros] October 19 2005 1:21 PM EDT

Doesn't the NUB also add to fight rewards?

miteke [Superheros] October 19 2005 1:26 PM EDT

I'd still like some other players out there to run some numbers.

Find the total number of BAs you needed to complete an upgrade, divide it into the net profit for your latest forge job to get $/BA forging.

Then fight once through your fight list, determine the total increase in $, then divide by the number of battles to get $/BA fighting. A nice plus would be team experience gained per BA too since that will increase the value of your tattoos AND increase your earning power.

Sukotto [lookingglas] October 19 2005 2:22 PM EDT

Keeping in mind that your net $ from fighting may include buying more ammo...

miteke [Superheros] October 20 2005 10:37 AM EDT

One of the reasons I won't do an archer any more. Those arrows are a pain in the butt.

Wasp [C and S Forgery Lmtd.] October 20 2005 10:47 AM EDT

And forgers that forge at 75% don't make 75% profit, they only make 55% profit as they have to pay the blacksmith the forge fees.

Ilovehellokitty October 20 2005 2:25 PM EDT

60% for some or ...

miteke [Superheros] October 20 2005 4:12 PM EDT

That's why I said use net profit!

After using net profit I found I made $250 per BA forging (using a 75% rate and forging a BoTh), while I made $225 per BA fighting PLUS got lots of bennies from the experience. For one thing forging does not increase your income per BA since there is no experience.

Still waiting for some real numbers from the community out there. Can anyone else out there calc their $/BA for forging vs. fighting? Please?

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] October 20 2005 6:49 PM EDT

Here's an idea:
How about make forging also gain MPR, but make it so when you make a char you make a choice between choosing whether or not to make a forging char or a fighting char. (But you have to make an exception for those of us who already have high chars and are forging). But make it so if you assign a forging char to gain the experience then the character can ONLY gain MPR by forging, (If he fights he will only get money but NO Experience).

Forger - Gains MPR by forging, but not by fighting, if he starts fighting.

Fighter - Gains MPR by fighting, but not forging, if he starts forging.

48Zach October 20 2005 6:53 PM EDT

Thats not such a good idea smallpau , because then when u start with a new forging character , you have to forge to gain MPR , but when ur a low MPR its very very very hard to forge.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] October 20 2005 6:54 PM EDT

Mainly i brought it up, because if you do something long enough, dont you learn things as you go? Well you learn as you fight so why not learn as you forge?

learn = experience to train, in case some of you didnt catch that...=P

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] October 20 2005 6:55 PM EDT

Is it not already hard to fight as well?

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] October 20 2005 9:03 PM EDT

My idea of forging has always been a way to make money without gaining MPR.

There is an advantage to this...

Think of it this way, on average let's say everyone drops $75 USD into their characters.
That's what, *gets out his not-so-trusty calculator* enough to buy a BoNE, MH, VB, BTh etc.

Well, then little old Chuckles and anyone who like him is not spending their money on a game, is still weilding a katana and all of his opponents on average have a base MH.
But wait! Chuckles is smart (well, insane may be a better definition... but that's besides the point) and stops to forge. He comes back a week or two later with a few mil of his own and buys a MH, now he can compete with everyone at his MPR!

It makes USD spending have less of an impact on people who don't buy things with it.
It doesn't hurt the USD spenders because they will not have to stop and forge, so they can skip ahead when you stop to forge.
But it also makes it possible to run a tank character without spending USD.

miteke [Superheros] October 21 2005 9:36 AM EDT

That would make sense IF you could make a significant amount of cash more forging than fighting, but I can't. I make about the same amount all things considered and lose out on the benefits of increasing the MPR of my character.

That's why I want to see some numbers (am I finally getting through to you guys - numbers?) so I can find out if it is just me.

This is my thread dang it! No more opinions out of anyone unless they also post some numbers!!! Give me your average $/BA forging and your average $/BA fighting and then you may speak.

AdminNightStrike October 22 2005 6:54 AM EDT

I'll get the numbers for you. I have one character with 15,663 MPR and one with 26,792 MPR. Which one do you want me to use? What do you want me to forge?

Keep in mind that you will gain more $ forging certain items over others depending on the BA required and the NW difference. If an item grows slowly in NW, it's not as lucrative to forge as one that grows quickly in NW.

Perhaps I will forge three different items to see how the numbers in $/BA compare (who knows, maybe Jon carefully crafted the BA forging requirements to reflect the NW increase).

Just tell me how you want it done.

AdminNightStrike October 22 2005 7:01 AM EDT

(Note: I do not have a NUB.) Ok, with my 26,792 MPR character who has 4 minions and one FF, I just earned the following: Money 51 Exp 12 Money 64 Exp 11 Money 66 Exp 11 Money 87 Exp 12 Money 56 Exp 14 Money 76 Exp 11 Money 77 Exp 11 Money 63 Exp 7 Money 76 Exp 9 Money 99 Exp 11 Money 96 Exp 9 Money 40 Exp 7 Money 54 Exp 9 Money 82 Exp 7 Money 61 Exp 10 Money 59 Exp 12 Average 69.1875 Average 10.1875 That EXP is per minion. I didn't know if I should multiply by 4 or 5 given that I have a familiar, so I just presented all of the data. I didn't apply any EXP, so my MPR remained unchanged.

AdminNightStrike October 22 2005 6:42 PM EDT

Sorry, I forgot I shouldn't apply XP. I bumped my MPR to 27,202. I don't think that will affect results too much, although I may do it again and make a better table (I didn't realize that with Plain Text set, that the carriage returns would be inlined.)

miteke [Superheros] October 24 2005 9:49 AM EDT

I redid my calculations for battle BA money earned and got about $200 per BA this time. I would say that forging earns about 25% more CB2$ than fighting in my case. Someone with higher or lower Score/PR/MPR ratios could expect different results.

Note for newer players: The faster you fight and the more often you fight against an opponent, the less you earn. When you first add an opponent to your fight list you can expect larger awards for a while from that opponent but it quickly degenerates. My first set of battles was after a major redesign of the character leading to a completely new fight list. Thus I had better fight rewards than I do now after a few weeks of using the same character setup.

AdminNightStrike October 27 2005 1:45 AM EDT

So... do you want me to do the test you asked for?
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