Free Market Economy and getting people to overpay you, opinions: (in General)

AdminShade November 13 2005 5:06 PM EST

NightStrike, 2:53 PM EST
RoE = 350k.. $10 = 666k... And yet I get flamed and have my posts deleted every time I offer a supportership for $1m.

Yeah.... free market economy....

CoolWater, 3:04 PM EST
Nightstrike, obviously supportership of $10 = CB2$ 666k not equal 1 mil. It's not only you, others will get flamed as well if they offered that to newbie.

Shade, 3:25 PM EST
Why not stop whining over 1 removed thread?

Tempted to remove posts which don't belong in here, most of the posts don't even remotely help chickensoup64 to get his/her supportership.

NightStrike, 3:25 PM EST
Maybe basic math eludes you...

$10 = 666k
RoE = 350k

666K + 350k = ???

davis, 3:29 PM EST
but RoE is part of that $10 so if he gives RoE it should be 666k-350k
Do the math now...

NightStrike, 3:29 PM EST
Because, Shade, you were wrong to do it then and you're wrong to do it now. Unless, of course, you delete every mention of this being a free market economy. Either it is and you stop deleting my posts, or it isn't and you can fix all the prices you want.

Maybe you just have no idea what a FME really is. I could explain it to you if you like.

Shade, 3:51 PM EST
Maybe it is like this:

$10 usd = 666k
RoE = 350k

membership without RoE (giving it away) = 666k - (being MINUS) 350k = 316k

why it would be like this: because the person who gets the RoE, gets back a value of 350k, which equals to 'almost' paying only 5 USD instead of 10.

And I have never said that CB wasn't a free economy, but letting people overpay HALF of the value = scamming imo, and many people, both veterans and newbs, will agree with me.

So just drop the case or I will indeed remove all your posts from this thread

NightStrike, 4:40 PM EST
So censorship is your answer, eh? Typical.

$10 is the value of the supportership. That includes numerous features, including blackmarket auctions, a favorites list, themes, etc. There is a supporter item thrown in as a bonus. That is not part of the $10 value. That item changes from time to time, as well.

If I send $10 to Jon for a user, that user gets 666k worth of features. On top of that, he gets another 350k as a bonus item.

I subscribe to Comcast for internet access. As a bonus, they give me a 2G giganews account (that's USENET for those that don't know). That is a bonus applied to the account. It is not part of my monthly subscription. If Giganews goes down, I get no refund for the month like I do when the internet service itself, or the emial service, or any other service I paid for goes down. The USENET access is a bonus that I pay nothing for. Similarly, when something goes wrong with it, I receive no compensation. I fought with their legal department, and have since learned how things like that operate.

In terms of the Supportership, the RoE is a bonus just the same. It is not part of the 666k that is spent. If the bonus item was part of the $10, then the value of the supportership would be flipping up and down rapidly everytime the item changes. It doesn't. It's still $10, and it's still 666k.

All that aside, you have no right to restrict an offer that I make if this is truly a free market economy. Because you don't agree with a price I charge means nothing. That doesn't mean that it's a scam. A scam would be if I accepted 1m and did nothing in return. Just because you don't like it does not make it a scam.

Think about it. People have charged 700k, 750k. What if I charge 800k? Well, that's ok. 801k? Sure. 802k? Scammer!!!!!111!!!oneone!!!

Your logic for determining a ceiling for a price being a scam or not is falacious. It is known as price fixing. This winds up being a free market economy as long as Shade approves of the prices that Shade sets...... Somehow, that just doesn't make sense. Shade, just because you disagree with a price or the value in an item means nothing in terms of the validity of someone making that offer. To me, a Supportership is worth about $1m. I would pay someone that much. Likewise, I would charge that much. Heck, I was willing to pay $10 just for the RoE. That's what a free market is, Shade. Don't call it a free market if you insist on limiting it.

You want to delete my posts? Go ahead. But censorship is never the answer. I'll bring it up again and again. Either that, or, as I said, delete all the claims that CB2 is a free market economy. As long as you continue to do this, it isn't.

Maybe what you should do is take a course in economics. Learn what Free Enterprise is. I really think you just don't have a clue what it is and what it entails.

All arguements of the actual value of the Supportership are extraneous and useless. If oyu continue to argue that irrelvent point, you are showing your inability to grasp the underlying matter. What it comes down to is that you are enforcing price fixing. That is WRONG. Do you understand that? Do you know what price fixing is, and that it is the opposite of a free market? If I can't sell something unless it complies with your price structure, that isn't a free market. How is it that you continue to miss this concept? Whether I sell a Supportership for $10 or $1m CB2 for $20, you have no irght to tell me that I can't -- if this really is a free market economy. If you ARE allowed to fix my prices, then this ISN'T a free market economy -- Stop saying it is, and delete all of that from the help files, faq, and wiki. It's that simple, Shade.

Go ahead, delete my post. Censor me. Reset my account. Ban me. Steal the hundreds of dollars I have locked up in CB2 already. Throw your administrative weight around like you enjoy doing so much. The fact is that I am right in this matter, and I will not be silenced. This isn't whining. This is standing up for what I know in my heart to be right and true. This is standing up for work that I do in real life involving free enterprise, and the battles I fight daily to prevent monopolistic dogs as yourself from gaining power. The difference between you and I is that I know the depths to which I am right, and you still fail to understand even basic concepts such as "markets".

You have only two choices: change CB2 from being a free market economy to being a monopolized, price-fixed, socialist economy... or let my posts and my prices through. Anything else shows your bias, your hypocrisy, your discrimination, and your lack of honour.

Inferno, 4:47 PM EST
Night, The RoE is included in the 666k so say, you buy me supportership I can pay you either 666k or RoE and say 350k. Get it? You're thinking 1 Mill because you're adding the RoE as if your getting 666k and the RoE, but I'd get to keep the RoE. Do you now see why 1 Mill is abit cheap?

Shade, 4:47 PM EST
censorship? not at all but this doesnt belong in this thread.

Will remove whatever contribution you made in this thread in exactly 10 minutes, i wont even bother reading it, make a new thread for it, even better i will do it for you. and put your text in there.

QBBast, 4:53 PM EST
Oh. Wow.

Well, there's the free market and then there's "the community". The free market would allow, in your case, anyone with chutzpah enough to charge whatever he might get away with to customers who are not necessarily able to make an informed decision on the matter.

Then there's the community, where most of us know how to do some fairly basic math, the value of $CB2 and how generally nice it is to help a new player not get screwed -- as it were.

Say what you will about what you, presumably, consider admin interference. Anytime I see a new player paying more than $700k (total value) for supportership to _anyone_, I'm going to tell them to wait for a better deal. If they choose to make their "more informed" decision after advice to the contrary, so be it.

you, 4:55 PM EST
Night Strike does have a point. If 1mil is too much and CoolWater broke out a good math fair value then why doesn't CoolWater pay for the supportership and be done with it?

LeonP, 4:55 PM EST
Nightstrike, the RoE and the features are included in the supportership deal. It's 666k for an RoE and some cool features.

AdminNightStrike November 13 2005 5:08 PM EST

The argument is not whether 1m is the value of a Supportership. The argument is whether Shade has the right to delete my offers. He does not. To Bast's point, what if I offer 701k? Will Shade be allowed to delete my post? What if I offer 702k?

What gives Shade the right to fix the price on anything? I don't care if you disagree with 1m. I care if you disallow someone to charge what he wants for a service. I care if you fix prices.

The issue over 1m for Supportership does not matter. I made it clear in my post that "If you continue to argue that irrelvent point, you are showing your inability to grasp the underlying matter." The fact is that Shade has no right to fix prices. No one does.

YOU November 13 2005 5:13 PM EST

I agreed with what Night said

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] November 13 2005 5:18 PM EST

I don't see it as price fixing, so much as the shortcut around what will now happen.

Perhaps you fail to see that in a "huge" FME, the Market would wait for word to spread that one's product is crap, or overpriced, or kills one's customers. This is a very small community with excellent "mass communications". We don't have to wait long for The Market, meaning Us, to snuff out bad corporate citizens.

So, instead of leaving your "offer" open to a true drubbing by those of us who would choose to run an 89-post-long-thread about how awful you are, thereby adding to the general negativity of the forums, Shade simply corrected your error and saved you the aggravation.

If you want to insist that charging, effectively, $1m CB2 for a $10 USD purchase is "fair game", then you are merely inviting the flaming of The Community. Which is trolling, is it not?

YOU November 13 2005 5:22 PM EST

i charged mythology 85% to forge his stuffs for 3 months while others begged for jobs at 70%. Flame me.

AdminShade November 13 2005 5:23 PM EST

"$10 is the value of the supportership. That includes numerous features, including blackmarket auctions, a favorites list, themes, etc. There is a supporter item thrown in as a bonus. That is not part of the $10 value. That item changes from time to time, as well.

If I send $10 to Jon for a user, that user gets 666k worth of features. On top of that, he gets another 350k as a bonus item. "

This is so not right because people who are already a supporter pay $6 USD for the new supporter item, as an addition to the $10 usd they already paid for their supportership. so those features are then suddenly worth $16 USD with your reasoning, and $24 USD when you paid for 2 additional supporter items...

Also that supporter item has a worth of $350k, and this has ALWAYS been seen as such by every member of the community, excluding you and your 'basic math'.

if that person were to actually BUY the 10 usd on a paypal account, it would cost the person 666k, or perhaps 700k to make it a round number and to use your stupid example of 'oh my god would shade approve of this'.

that person gets supportership PLUS the supporter item. The player can sell the item for $350k, or for USD, which converted (at 1 mil = 15 usd) would be little over $5 usd ($5.25 actually). This would make his supportership only cost $5 USD, with all his '10 USD worth of features'

Sounds like cheap to you? It is, because thats reality.

AdminNightStrike November 13 2005 5:29 PM EST

Trolling is very different. A troll has the intent of causing problems because he thrives on conflict and revels in the firey flames.

I, on the other hand, am posting for different reasons. For you, the value of PayPal is at a certain level, and the value of paying 10 for a Supportership is at a certain level. For me, I value that differently. I shoudl be allowed to charge based on how I value the service I offer. For someone with no access to PayPal, it would be valued more highly. For someone used to being scammed by Paypal (I, myself, have lost tens of thousands of dollars via paypal), he would pay the extra dollar for added safety. For someone who places more value on speed of service receipt than direct cost, he would pay the extra dollar for an exchange that happens almost instantly.

I can offer more than just $10 in a given transaction, and so I place that higher in value. If a buyer sees that value, then I will have a successful sale. If a buyer disagrees witht hat added value, then I won't. But I will be allowed to go either way.

Shade disagrees with my added value, and so deletes my posts, calling me a scammer instead. That's not exactly professional. That doesn't exactly shine brightly on this (price-fixed) free market economy.

AdminNightStrike November 13 2005 5:34 PM EST

Shade, I don't care if you value supportership differently. I care that your value supersedes mine, and therefore you delete my offers and call me a scammer. That is price fixing. That is not free market.

Stop ignoring the real underlying issue. You are fixing the price within whatever limits you tolerate. I broke those limits, and so you delete my posts. THAT is the real issue.

"You" has illustrated this perfectly. He charged a high forge rate. Delete his posts. I rememebr a post by you (Shade) stating that you (Shade) won't pay over 70% because of the % reduced by being in an eco clan. So, delete "You's" ability to charge a high rate. That's your way, isn't it? Or is it only with me that like to delete posts?

AdminShade November 13 2005 5:36 PM EST

I have never called you a scammer, which I will never do unless it is absolutely positive that you would be scamming. Only thing i say is that you overcharge for your 'services' the removal of your posts wasn't so much because of that overcharging but because of the hijacking of a thread.

"I should be allowed to charge based on how I value the service I offer."

You are by all rights entitled to charge whatever you feel worth of your 'service' but those people are by all rights also entitled to know that other people charge less, being HALF of what you charge, that is how I see your Free Market Economy.

AdminNightStrike November 13 2005 5:36 PM EST

I'm going to stress this because I'm tired of people talking about the cost of supportership.

All arguements of the actual value of the Supportership are extraneous and useless. If you continue to argue that irrelvent point, you are showing your inability to grasp the underlying matter.

Shade, I don't care if you value supportership differently. I care that your value supersedes mine, and therefore you delete my offers and call me a scammer. That is price fixing. That is not free market.

Bootsanator November 13 2005 5:38 PM EST

here's what i think.

blah blah blah blah blah

just shut up and stop being a jerk. nobody cares about the technicalities of it, or economics or anything.

what they Do care about, is some poor noob paying 1 mil CB2 for 10 USD when the going rate is 1:15

Seriously, just give it up already.

if you were the ONLY ONE who would give him supportership, then 1 mil is justified, but as it is, many people would buy the 666k off of him for 10 bucks for supportership. people sell cb2 every day.

i don't know why i even bothered typing this, it isn't really even worth it, but i'm not about to not click submit now that i wasted all this time (5 minutes better spent doing homework)

AdminNightStrike November 13 2005 5:41 PM EST

Thank you for that helpful contribution, Boot. Next time, read what I wrote in bold.

Bootsanator November 13 2005 5:44 PM EST

you typed it in the SAME MINUTE as shade, and i was still typing my response. how am i supposed to know things instantly...sheesh...

AdminShade November 13 2005 5:46 PM EST

"You" has illustrated this perfectly. He charged a high forge rate. Delete his posts. I rememebr a post by you (Shade) stating that you (Shade) won't pay over 70% because of the % reduced by being in an eco clan. So, delete "You's" ability to charge a high rate. That's your way, isn't it? Or is it only with me that like to delete posts?

Well I made that thread myself, if i may: making MY free market economy, people not agreeing to my terms needed not to reply. and if i would get a reply from someone having a better deal, but if it would cost me more, thats up to me to choose and decide, or isn't it?

I never deleted a thread of you that you made yourself offering supportership, the posts i removed were of hijacking other peoples posts and giving wrong information which led to cleaning up the entire thread of hijacking possibilities

And as for me picking on you: there have been quite some more people that were hijacking threads in a similar, sometimes clearer, way that also have their posts disappear and even been fined for it.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] November 13 2005 5:47 PM EST

So, instead of Shade just deleting your nonsense post because he has the ability to do it, you'd prefer 88 (taking one off assuming that either Ranger or I but not both of us would say it) posts on how you are a scoundrel for trying to overcharge a new player for a service?

You really want this to be about Shade having the ability to do (simply) what the rest of us would do in a relatively unkind, very public, sometimes bordering on quite unPG fashion? You just want the Free Market to take all day and 89 or so posts to do what Shade did with less nastiness?

AdminJonathan November 13 2005 5:55 PM EST

Free market is not the same as freedom to try to rip people off.

At least not on CB.

bartjan November 13 2005 6:00 PM EST

"There is a supporter item thrown in as a bonus. That is not part of the $10 value."

I strongly disagree with that. If bought separately, it would cost $6. So using the same math, all other elements would cost $4. $6=400k. $4=266k. All together that's $666k. Of course, it only makes sense to see it all together, as you simply can't buy supportership without the item.

Certainly, everyone is free to set their own prices, and the market could (or should) vary over time. But if a newbie complains to an admin, because he overpaid 50% on his supportership deal, why shouldn't I call that scamming?
How will you convince me that said newbie has had enough opportunity to find out what reasonable market prices are.
It's only a free market, if the market is transparent for those that participate in it. You can expect that from a veteran, but not from (every) newbie.

AdminNightStrike November 13 2005 6:18 PM EST

bart: Read what I wrote in bold.

Jon: So where is the cutoff? Shade said he will allow someone to offer 700k for a supportership. I've seen it go for 750k. If I offer 800, will I be censored? At what point do you consider it a rip-off as opposed to smart negotiating and speculating?

The rate of USD:CB2 is 15:1. Says who? I buy it as low as 13:1 (actually, I bought at 10:1 on a 1-month payplan). I've sold it as high as 17:1. That's called "making a profit". If I go to 20:1 to sell, is that a ripoff? Is 19:1 a ripoff?

Using the term "ripoff" is a fancy way of saying "I'm controlling the economy to protect you."

Well, if you're going to control the economy, stop saying it's free market, and post what we're allowed to charge for services. When this issue arose originally some time ago, it was because I made an honest offer for a service based on how I valued that service; Shade didn't like my offer, and he deleted my posts. How was I supposed to know that my offer didn't fall within Shade's guidelines? I was under the impression that this was a free market, and so I thought I would be allowed to charge what I saw fit, and what I was willing to pay.

If you are going ot control the economy, why is this not posted? Why let it be labeled as wideopen until someone makes an offer you don't like? If I sell USD for 18:1, will I be censored? But 16:1 is ok, right? What about 17:1? Maybe I should just forward all of my offers to an admin to verify before I post them. That way, my prices could be "fixed" before entering the "free market".

AdminNightStrike November 13 2005 6:24 PM EST

Shade: Posting "I'll do it for $1m" in a thread saying "Make me an offer" is not hijacking a thread. You didn't like my offer, and you deleted it.

Regarding your forging thread: My point was that just like you value forging at 70%, you value a supportship a certain way. Someone posted "Make me an offer for supportership", and I did. You deleted my offer because it didn't agree with your values.

If "You" responds to someone saying "Make me an offer for forging," and offers 85%, will you delete his post because you value forging differently? Will you control "You's" prices as you do mine?

Or is You's price within your tolerance? What if he charged 86%? Does it break your tolerance levels? Can you post your tolerance levels so I know how much I can offer a person for every type of service before being censored, or is that part of the game? To try to find out how much you can charge before an admin will censor you?

bartjan November 13 2005 6:29 PM EST

Night: read what I said about scamming. Consult an economy teacher for a definition of 'Free Market', as obviously you failed to read what I said about it.

trigger99 November 13 2005 6:52 PM EST

NightStrike just give it up already it seems your the only one who want to act like you are acting

the going rate is about 15usd to 1 mil cb2$
for supportership it is about 666k cb2$ since that equals 10usd
so charging 1 mil for supportership is 334k over the going rate
and you dont consider that scamming or ripping off?
well everyong else does
see a newbie might not know what the going rate is therefore they would go for the 1 mil deal. that in my mind is you scamming a newb because they didnt know what the going rate is. and you put it into their head that their 1 mil is a good price for your 10 usd.

Special J November 13 2005 6:58 PM EST

Lots of banter in here,

Nightstrike, you attempted to take advantage of a NEW PLAYER and it is our job to stop that. This person does not know any better and you tried to slide in before they got a feeling for the USD/CB ratio.

The SUPPORTER ITEM comes with supportership, package deal, not an extra. Everyone SUPPORTER gets an item, this item changes often the value does not matter, it is part of the reasoning behind paying the $10.

A free market does not mean you, or ANYONE else, is free to take advantage of another person, especialy when they are new to the game. Shade's deleting of your post and making an offer of his own are not hand in hand, you just made them that way and took the angle needed in your whine to make it look as if you were wronged. When in fact you were stopped prior to wronging someone else.

The forging from you is an entire seperate issue, was either player new to the game? yOu does fast and consistant work, he charges more and people are willing to pay the extra.
Apple meets the Orange, eh.

Get used to us doing that, and stop attempting to tell us how to do our job.

LumpBot November 13 2005 8:05 PM EST

Completely off topic, but why do we keep calling "you" a he? Last time I remembered she was a girl...or did I miss some horrible accident/operation?

Derek November 13 2005 8:07 PM EST

"Heck, I was willing to pay $10 just for the RoE."

What a shame, you could've had an RoE for $10 if you'd taken chickensoup64's original offer of supportership for the RoE.

The truth is you would never have paid $10 for an RoE, why, because you could get one much cheaper, the market price for RoE's is a lot lower than the value you place on that item, so you get a nice piece of consumer surplus, that's the beauty of the FME that you purport to know so well.

In reality there is no such thing as a true free market economy, even an economy such as the US has price ceilings, subsidies, tariffs etc on many goods. It most instances this is done because of market failure.

Carnage Blender is not a pure free market economy, the fact that we pay a fixed amount in USD for supportership shows this. The price in CB2 that supportership is worth should simply be the amount of CB2 that $10USD is worth. Newbies often don't know the true value of CB2, because of this there is imperfect information, which is another form of market failure.

Regulating the price is simply a way of correcting this market failure. It doesn't mean Carnage Blender is not a free market economy in the same way that the US economy is still a free market economy despite government regulation.

YOU November 13 2005 9:14 PM EST

it's okie to warn new players what the current rate is, that's perfectly good practice to alert them of scammer. But deleting a high offer is a step far. If i want something bad enough i will pay even 500k more than whoever paying 'cause i am not sitting around to wait 24 more days to get a chance for what i want again. Even USD if possible.

Also i want to add something that one might have aware but didn't take into consideration. The most recent NUB would obviously make more money than the before NUB. That 100k different or 300k more would be like 1 day earning different for them. I do NOT encourage inflated offer price; however, it should still be an OPTIoN to fall back on if nothing else work out.

Maelstrom November 13 2005 9:19 PM EST

\me puts on his devil's advocate hat:

Nightstrike, I can see your point. You made an offer to pay for a person's supportership when no one else did. Since no one else offered, the person desiring supportership could have taken your offer if he/she wanted it right away.

I see Nightstrike's offer as being exactly the same as making very low offers on rare items for sale: you know your offer is ridiculously low/high, yet you hope you might just get away with it.

Instead of deleting a perfectly valid (though perhaps unreasonable) offer, someone should simply have pointed out what is commonly paid for supportership.

\me takes off his devil's advocate hat:

On the other side, I agree that it is not "nice" to ask an unreasonable amount from a player that doesn't know any better.

Finally, Nightstrike, I understand that you are trying to make a point, and you've made that point very clear. We are not disagreeing with the fact that you can make whatever offer you want. We are trying to save a new player from spending too much money on supportership.

QBRanger November 13 2005 9:43 PM EST

No devils advocate hat here:

I see from time to time, people trying to sell usd at 20 to 1 ratios. Typically they are laughed to oblivion but it does not change the fact that people from time to time try it.

Trying to get supportership for 1 million is a 10 to 1 ratio. IMO, no harm there, esp if nobody else offered to do it. It would be our job as a community to inform others that 10 to 1 is a bit off. However, if nobody else offered, the 10 to 1 ratio might be a bargain, especially if supportership is truely needed.

I did not read the entire thread to know what was deleted, but IMO it is not that unreasonable an offer. 10 to 1 is what is the rate in cb1 and I as well as others wish to see cb2 get to that level.

QBRanger November 13 2005 9:47 PM EST

I should clarify something. I am talking about the cb1 to usd ratio when I joined cb1 in Dec 04. Now with cb2 out the cb1 value has tanked.

CoolWater [Superheros] November 14 2005 2:59 AM EST

Nightstrike, just admit it that you make a mistake by adding the ROE and CB2$ 666k to make cb2$ 1 mil as the cost of supportership. It wasn't about free market or any other thing. You are diverting the attention on your mistake into an argument about free market.

AdminShade November 14 2005 5:54 AM EST

NightStrike: if you would only read my text a bit better:

I never deleted your posts because you were offering it at a too high price in my opinion, the reasons i removed those posts because you were hijacking the thread afterwards always because you felt the need to 'protect your good name' in that thread. nothing else.

and about the questions of tolerance: there is no set level, nor will there be any, there are people charging too high prices all the time, everywhere, and most people are sane, wise, enough not to fall for those high prices.

Or in other words, when people ask a too high price here, people will offer lower prices to come to a sensible deal.

And i also don't even remotely can grasp what your problem is with you, asking 85% of NW for forging might be high, but isnt anywhere near as asking 150% of NW for forging.

But it's not about ripping people off is it, it's about you not liking that there are people warning other people that they can pay less money, and one of those people happens to be me...

Stephen Young November 14 2005 6:29 AM EST

I agree with Shade: People should warn newbs of bad deals.

I agree with Nightstrike: Deleting his offer (whether on its own, or along with the 'hijacking' posts in the thread) was not the right thing to do.

I agree with Ranger: I wish the going rate for CB2$ was 10:1 like it used to be in CB1.

Reebok November 14 2005 9:56 AM EST

I'd just like to point out that Shade is not the one who decided that $1 mil for supportership is an insane price. Ask anyone who's been here for more than a few weeks and they'd agree. He's simply the one who called you on it. Any conspiracy theories that Shade is somehow "manipulating the market" through some sort of post deletion scheme are just absurd.

You can offer unreasonable rates to people all you want, but I'd pretty much guarentee that you'll get called on it every time, which I'd like to point out DOES happen in the US's "free market" all the time (I use "free market" pretty loosely in referance to the US though).

And before you say "Read what I wrote in bold!"

As for that you simply need to hear one thing. An admin deleted your post. They're an admin. Get over it.

QBJohnnywas November 14 2005 10:43 AM EST

Nightstrike, you seem to have a slightly confused view of this community. One thing this place isn't is free. We are guests here, regardless of anything. If there was a policy for price fixing that would be Jon's right. We could argue the toss for as long as you want but in the end, what Jon wants to do with CB is up to him.

Your supportership doesn't actually give you any rights here - it's a contribution to allow Jon to keep CB free to play.

I can't actually work out what it is you are upset about here? Are you annoyed that you got censored? See above about the reality of the community for that one. Shade has detailed his reasons and they are fair ones as far as I can see.

Or are you annoyed about what you call price fixing? If there is price fixing going on here it seems that the only person it affects negatively is you Nightstrike. Whatever the new guy pays for his supportership in one of these deals Jon gets the same amount via Paypal so he's not affected either way; and keeping the price low doesn't really bother the vets around the game. You will find some people prepared to pay for the supportership for a lot less than even the going rate, if you catch them on a good day. Even if it means they make a loss.

QBRanger November 14 2005 10:59 AM EST

I think Nightstrike is upset that his post was removed/censored.

He made an offer to buy someones supportership. The offer IMO was a bit high, but still a valid offer none the less. As I have stated and others have also, people have bid low on items trying to get them for a cheap price. And what does the community do, ridicule those that try to do it. We do not remove such stupid offers.

It was not like he offered to buy the supportership for 3 million cb2. Even then, the posts should not be removed, but extreme flaming of that offer should occur.

I think that is his problem with the whole matter. Not the flaming, but the outright removal of an offer, good or not.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 14 2005 11:34 AM EST

Well I will toss my hat into the ring and say I think this whole thing was handle incorrectly. Simply put, there is no reason to remove a valid offer. There is no justification for it. If you are unhappy with the offer you COULD offer an opinion on the subject (and if I was a poster I would ask you to be fined for hijacking). The only other post that should have been made by any concerned party would simply be to offer a better deal. If you are unable or unwilling to offer a better deal, then perhaps it is YOU not NightStrike who has misvalued supportership. If no one offers a better deal, presto chango, a new value is established for an item or service. It is that simple.

Shade, I understand you desire to "protect" a new person from getting ripped off. You click their name and there is a little box there to send them some chat mail. Send them some chatmail, and your opinion is voiced, it is done without hijacking a thread, and if the person trusts your opinion, then mission accomplished. Anything else was improper, and this resulting lengthy discussion was designed simply to add justification to an action that was perhaps not well thought out. You would be much better off in my opinion (and certainly elevated my opinion of you) to simply have said, you are right, made a mistake, and moved on. But instead created lengthy drama. Shame on you.

QBOddBird November 14 2005 11:41 AM EST

um, didn't Shade remove the posts because: "he reasons i removed those posts because you were hijacking the thread afterwards always because you felt the need to 'protect your good name' in that thread. nothing else. "

There's nothing wrong with removing posts because someone hijacks a thread. Everyone's assuming he removed them because the offer was bad, but Shade isn't saying that. Just Nightstrike.

Not totally sure what all NS had to say, though, as I don't read the posts of those who would cheat a newbie and then defend his/her actions. Downright rude, if you ask me.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 14 2005 11:49 AM EST

Yes Oddbird, the other posts were not relevant to his wanting to buy supportership, and should rightfully been removed. However, in what way is an offer to buy his supportership not relevant to the post about buying supportership, regardless of the offer posted? If that offer had not been removed, then NightStrike would not have posted about it being removed, and some other apparently MASSIVELY concerned party could have stepped up to the plate and offered a better deal, or simply gone away.

QBOddBird November 14 2005 12:01 PM EST

Free market is not the same as freedom to try to rip people off.

At least not on CB.

--Jonathan, November 13 2005 5:55 PM EST

Eliminating the whole thing solved two problems, from what I can see. Price gouging is what has the oil companies in trouble right now, so we can see economically that there *is* a limit you can go to.

1. He got rid of the hijacking

2. He stopped the price gouging on an unsuspecting buyer.

Maybe he shouldn't have removed the post, but I agree with his actions. The deal NightStrike offered was terrible. 150% of the current market value. Why should he keep that offer there? I understand that everyone wants it to stay a free market, but does that mean we have to tolerate those who want to take advantage of innocent buyers? I think there's a limit. Not necessarily a defined one, like 700k or 750k or whatever - if you set that, then Nightstrike will offer 701 or 751k just to tick you off ~_^

My point is that allowing people to take advantage of others when you have the power to stop them is wrong in and of itself. I side with Shade, whether his actions are right or wrong in your eyes or not. Bite me. ^_^

Relic November 14 2005 12:08 PM EST

Supportership is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Plain and simple. I am with Sefton on this one, the guy should be able to PAY his $5K and post (even what some would consider a unreasonable offer) should he so desire. There is no rule that I am aware of regarding price gouging. If you get taken in a deal (happens to most at least once) then hopefully you will learn to not let that happen in the future. Let's not patronize the newbies and hold their hand, we are not wet-nurses for heavens sake. If someone puts a tulwar into auctions for 1 million cb2 are the admins going to jerk it off the auction block? I think we need to allow folks to learn from their own experience and not baby them.

/me steps down from his soapbox and goes on working the NCB. :)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 14 2005 12:11 PM EST

But again, who decides what is a fair offer? What is ripping people off? The market does. So if I offer cb2 $ for $20 USD, and someone takes the offer, did I rip them off or did supply and demand factors elevate the price of cb2 $? How is this different. Again the market would have adjusted this, if and when someone offered a better deal, until such time, is it better to have no offers or a high offer?

I accept the offer to bite you on the condition you pay me $100 USD. Fair offer or not? Only YOU should be able to decide if it is fair or not. My biting services could be world famous and worth every penny. Am I ripping you off if someone else would pay me $1,000 USD to bite them? It could be the best bite deal you will ever get (I bet it is, but who knows there are weirder people out there than me) And who knows, the next poster could offer to bite you for $10 USD, at which point, my offer of $100 is obviously high. Ta Da, price set, offer accepted or not, that is up to you the buyer to decide.

QBJohnnywas November 14 2005 12:17 PM EST

Seft you made a good point about 'lengthy drama', at which point an admin should have stepped in and carried out a 'thread closed'.

So why the extra points, extending the drama, especially when it's about your biting services. I was just about to start making the evening meal when I read that. Put me right off my dinner lol ;)

bartjan November 14 2005 12:26 PM EST

Please read what I said about Free Markets. The market for Supporterships here in CB fails to meet the definition of a Free Market, so some form of intervention is inevitable.

Rathershady November 14 2005 12:29 PM EST

I wish that we would get off this pipe-dream analogy of a free-market. The 'free-market' is an economic ideal that has never actually been implemented in reality. In every government, and I think we could consider CB a virtual government, there are people responsible for fixing prices on commodities, both pushing them up and driving them down. I don't see why CB would be any different. I think people just need to stop wishing for utopia and dealing with reality.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 14 2005 12:29 PM EST

Well you see johnny, that lengthy drama was carried out inside the want to buy supportership post. And it was rightfully moved into a general post, making the drama a free for all, of which, when injustices are done, I have a tough time staying out of.

I have a technique to help you regain your appetite, and for the paltry sum of $100 USD I would be happy to share it with you. A bargain at 10X the price I assure you :)

Rathershady November 14 2005 12:30 PM EST

Darn you bartjan.

Admins, feel free to remove my post as it appears to be a repeat. And few things are as irritating as repetition. And few things are as irritating as repetition.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 14 2005 12:38 PM EST

bart, I never once used the term free market, I agree with you that the definition of a free market is not the same as what we have in CB2; however, this "intervention" you speak of, was in my opinion, done improperly and I am expressing that opinion now. Quite simply put, once admins start to police want to buys and sells, not for hijacking, but for whether a price offered is appropriate, at what point is a consesus reached. If you decide that $15 USD is an outrageous price for 1 million CB2 $ and go about deleting all post in which an offer at that price to buy or sell is made, how is that any different than what Shade did? Who is to say you are wrong that $15 hard earned USD is a rippoff for 1 million virtual, non-negotiatable CB2 $? The market is to say, because other wise its judgement, and can vary from person to person.

Lastly, I am not saying NightStrike's offer was a good one. And letting the other party know is not a bad thing, I am saying method in which the other party was notified of the poor offer was an inappropriate use of power in my opinion, and I am expressing it thusly.

AdminShade November 14 2005 12:48 PM EST

for all i care he can put his bid up again, but the buyer already knows, or should know, by now that that offer has a higher price than what most people would offer.

bartjan November 14 2005 1:29 PM EST

All I care about is that it's not a newbie that sets the new price (in an upwards direction).

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 14 2005 2:40 PM EST

"I have a technique to help you regain your appetite, and for the paltry sum of $100 USD I would be happy to share it with you. A bargain at 10X the price I assure you :) "

I'll but that for a Dollar! ;)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 14 2005 3:11 PM EST


Please send the equivalent of $1USD in cb2 $ to silent monk, or pm for paypal details.

My technique is guaranteed to succeed, or your money back. Its tried and true, and will never fail.

Stop eating for 1 week. Appetite will rebound, problem solved.

Man I love watching the market in action!

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] November 14 2005 3:15 PM EST

Sefton, you have therfore ripped GL off as the rest of us have gained your service for free!!!!
And you agree that while over the odds is ok that we should also be fair!!! your prices for that information were appalling, I could have got it cheaper from my dog!!!
No harsh words meant but I'm hyper right now.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 14 2005 3:20 PM EST

LOL now see Zoglog, you should have come under and said you would provide the same service as me for less :)

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] November 14 2005 3:23 PM EST

I'll go fetch the dog, she is very good at bartering.......or is that barking?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 14 2005 4:43 PM EST

>_< But = Buy...

Done! So $1 is about CB2 66,600 :) I'll send 1 CB2 per week until paid.

You did say pp's are alright didn't you?

If not, I'll have to retract my bid.


QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 14 2005 4:49 PM EST

Pay plans are fine and your credit is good with me GL, just don't get behind, would hate to have you reset for non-payment of such a small amount.... ;)

AdminNightStrike November 14 2005 4:55 PM EST

I have a lot to read in this thread, and no time to do it. I will respond to the on-topic posts with what hasn't already been stated -- though Sefton has articulated quite well that for which I was unable.

Quickly: Supportership = 666k because $15 = $1m.

AdminNightStrike November 14 2005 4:58 PM EST

I will not be able to add a replyuntil much later tonight. Quickly again: Ranger, I missed your most recent post the first time through -- you are correct in gauging a main reason as to why I elevated this issue.

AdminShade November 14 2005 4:59 PM EST

and what is your point in agreeing to Sefton while i had stated that LONG ago:

Shade, 3:51 PM EST
Maybe it is like this:

$10 usd = 666k

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 14 2005 5:04 PM EST

GentlemanLoser (Tate) Sefton (Silent Monk) $1 -- First PP Payment 5:03 PM EST

AdminShade November 14 2005 5:12 PM EST

GL: this isn't Public Record :p

[SoM]CupofJoe [Peoples Bank of Carnage] November 14 2005 5:22 PM EST

I really don't like to but into these things.....

Ok I'm lying ;)

I think that everyone should just shake hands.

Maybe shade can find it in his heart to give Night his $5,000 back and allow him to repost.

I think the community has spoken on this matter.

While we feel, as a whole, that ripping people off is wrong and should be discouraged.

We also feel that it is up to whomever is a part of a deal to research the deal that they are partaking in.

If you see a bad deal make a post about how much of a bad deal it is(God only knows how many times this has happened anyways)

What I'm saying is that if someone posts ridiculous prices, call him out.
Don't remove the post, because maybe the deal is good in someone elses eyes.

So, problem solved.

Joe :)

AdminShade November 14 2005 5:25 PM EST

Excuse me CupOfJoe!

Maybe shade can find it in his heart to give Night his $5,000 back and allow him to repost.

By all means it is "FREE" to post in FS/WTB threads, and only costs 5k to MAKE a thread... I never deleted a thread created by him in FS/WTB so I NEVER have taken money from him.

I hope you will realize that, and that you now seriously hurt my feelings by saying something so not true.

[SoM]CupofJoe [Peoples Bank of Carnage] November 14 2005 5:28 PM EST

My humblest apologies Shade.

I forgot about the whole thread hijacking. I didn't mean to offend or hurt you.

Do you really want to hurt Shade?
Do you really want to make Shade cry?

I'm sorry that's the song that just came into my head.

Seriously though, I'm sorry about that. My bad completely.

AdminShade November 14 2005 5:31 PM EST

np, I just don't like it when people say things about me that aren't true, wouldn't care for the money though.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001bO1">Free Market Economy and getting people to overpay you, opinions:</a>