ToA, MgS (in Changelog)

ToA ST/DX grant reduced to 1/2, 1/3 of lvl (was 60%, 40%). BUT, these are now affected by bonuses (and penalties) from other items.

Unrelatedly (since ToA and MgS can't be worn together), MgS gets DX penalty of -1% (was 0%).

Nice.

hoo hooo baby!

At least it's not a heavy penalty on those poor, misunderstood MgS... but who saw the TOA change coming? How high will TOA-tank DX go with all the bonuses they can opt to use?

Very effective. I like it. Thanks Jon =)

I may bring my CB1 strat back into action.....DX upon haste upon Dx........

For folks with money, a big HoE and large EGs will actually turn this into a ToA _boost_, not a nerf.

For the little guy and his ToA...sorry dudes.

How about some UC changes ? :D

*does the dex pen dance*

I think is is a very well thought out change.

/me Waits for the Flames

Just to let people know, this is not a rant, not even a grudge against the changes, though I use a ToA I won't say booh these changes suck.




to Karmik Mishap, and to Sutekh:

as a ToA tank you can only choose a few DX bonus items: Elven Gloves & Elven Boots (remember cloak not available)

for ST, you only have 1 choice, well actually 2 but you can't wear 4 gloves at the same time :p so the choice is only for HoE now.



picking some decent upgraded versions:

Todd's fetid boots [6] (+17) worth $3,124,475 (EB)
Brass Knuckles [3] (+14) worth $4,069,856 (EG)

Hat of Ethel [6] (+18) worth $5,207,562 (HoE)


That's a total DX bonus of 33% and ST bonus of 19%

however you wouldn't be able to wear Displacement Boots, nor Tulka's Gauntlets, but since it's a question of mostly DX bonuses I will use the EG's



Now for the calculations:

When not having trained any ST or DX (so 20 base) and a level 797,020 named ToA you would before have: (named = ~4% higher level so around level 819901 in effect)

ToA bonuses:
ST: 491941
DX: 327961

Other (item) bonuses:

ST: 4
DX: 7

Which comes to the following, theoretical, ST and DX:

ST: 491965
DX: 327718

Now with the new system:

ToA bonuses: (pre item bonuses)

ST: 409951
DX: 273301


which now comes to the following stats: (yet again theoretical)

ST: 487866
DX: 363517

So yes indeed your DX is now higher, but this is without taking in account any shield you are wearing (Mithril Shield has 3% penalty and using a 2 handed weapon has additional 15% penalty if used with a Crossbow and additional 18% if used with a Bow.

So taking into account, Mithril Shield + Helm of Ecthelion + Crossbow and 2 Handed Weapon (this comes to a total penalty to DX of: 18%)

your DX penalty now is 33% - 18% = 15% DX bonus

then your DX now is: 314320

Which is still lower than the 'before' version.

So to get equal DX as your before setting you would need a total DX bonus of 20%, not that hard to get with both Elven Boots and Elven Gloves, but you would really need to think about the weapons you use and thus lack in either some AC if you won't use a Shield, or lack in damage because you can't use a Morgul Hammer or Blade of Nan-Elmoth.

And you would also need a ST bonus of 20% to break even with your ST bonus. Now getting that 20% ST bonus isn't hard at all, considering there aren't any ST penalties, but you won't be able to use Elven Gloves and thus make you getting back at the DX level very hard.



next post: situation when having 200k ST and DX trained, before and after changes

Nice work Shade. Though if I did that much thinking I would probably keel over.

picking the same items (for ease of comparison)

Todd's fetid boots [6] (+17) worth $3,124,475 (EB)
Brass Knuckles [3] (+14) worth $4,069,856 (EG)

Hat of Ethel [6] (+18) worth $5,207,562 (HoE)


That's a total DX bonus of 33% and ST bonus of 19%




Now for the calculations:

When having trained 200k ST and DX and a level 797,020 named ToA you would before have: (named = ~4% higher level so around level 819901 in effect)

ToA bonuses: (before changes)
ST: 491941
DX: 327961

Other (item) bonuses:

ST: 38000
DX: 66667

Which comes to the following, theoretical, ST and DX:

ST: 729941
DX: 594628

Now with the new system:

ToA bonuses: (pre item bonuses)

ST: 409951
DX: 273301


which now comes to the following stats: (yet again theoretical)

ST: 725842
DX: 629491


Yes, almost the same ST, and a bit higher DX, but what about the 2 Handed Weapon + Mithril Shield user

DX bonus now: 15%

544297

which is lower than before, almost a 50k difference even.




So please before you all go say, ooh those ToA users have gotten a real bonus from it, think again, we barely break even if we use the highest, and read most costing, items available in the game, and not even the most powerful imo.

A typical ToA tank would use Displacement Boots to compete against other ToA tanks and thus already lack the DX bonus from Elven Boots, so then getting your 20% DX bonus to break even is very high, add in the use of 2 handed weapons and Mithril Shields, which isn't an uncommon choice, and you get a DX penalty of 5%, which when looking at before and after situations:

Before, DX: 19 + 327961 = 327980
After, DX: ( 20 + 273301 ) * 95% = 259655

This makes a really big difference, some 20% difference in DX after the changes.




Now people might think: gosh that Shade has got it coming... not really

I did base this comparison on my own situation, ToA using Tank with Elven Gloves, Displacement Boots and a Helm of Ecthelion, but I am in the least worried about the change at all.

the ST bonus is a bit lower, but to do double the damage you need 4 times as much ST, so a bit lower ST makes only a bit lower Damage.

and about the DX, I will just have to compensate and train some more DX, no problems at all, I can and will manage :D



So if you go flame me, think again, flame yourself for not understanding that this is merely a comparison of pre and post ToA changes and not a whine or anything against the Changes.

note: i didn't calculate 2 handed weapon penalty with shield in the 'pre ToA chances' example

so you would then get:

ToA bonuses: (before changes)
DX: 327961

Other (item) bonuses: DX: 30000

Which comes to the following, theoretical DX: 561294

makes 30k difference to the following final comparison:

when having trained 200k DX and using 2 handed weapon + shield (MS):

Before, DX: 190,000 + 327,961 = 517961
After, DX: ( 200,000 + 273,301 ) * 95% = 449636

Which now still makes more than 50k difference

I can just say from my character:

I have +11 EG named so +12 effective, and +14 HOE named so +15 effective. Like most TOA tanks I use DB's and do not use a shield.

Pre nerf Str was 1,007,015, post nerf is 968,990.
Per nerf Dex was 921,780, post nerf is 872,131.

I have 100 base str and 222,639 base dex.

A small nerf but still yet another TOA nerf.

The biggest part of the nerf, that has been getting little play, is the fact that a shield with a TOA tank is basically finished. The fact the dex penalty effects the total dex makes a shield ill advised for any TOA tank.

Waiter: Sir, would you like a little aura to go with your nerfed TOA?
Customer: Why yes, I would.

Waiter: Sir, would you like another NUB nerf as someone is almost 90% of your MPR with 1 month of NUB still to go?
Customer: Why yes, I would.

I can dream, can't I?

This finally gives you a reason to get your +'s higher on your armor....and makes it worth it.

ST: 585,337/150,260 DX: 540,163/276,748
+25 ST + 11 DX

I think that is not bad for a 388mpr character.

For those that are worried about the loss of DX....train some.

TMDoc

Interesting. Does the size of the ToA figure in the PR added by bonus items now?

Ranger: I ran the numbers a few days ago, and if I were to apply the change NUB/NCB bonus levels would go _up_ by a couple percent. Sorry!

(Note that Cosmos is 80% of your xp earned, not 90%, and that he fights about 15% more battles than you. So he will pass you if he continues at this rate, but not by as much as you imply.)

While I know you would prefer that the formula work such that TAB would retain a essentially permanent lead, it is nevertheless working as designed.

If you take the highest EGs in the game, highest EBs, and highest HoE, the ToA "nerf" would be anything but for the high-end, well-payrolled character. It would probably end up being about even.

That was all I was saying in my second post on this thread.

Nice work on the figures Shade. Why would you think anyone would (or could) flame you? Math doesn't lie. *smile*

Jon,
nice to see you ran the numbers. Fair enough!
I would prefer TAB remain on top with respect to NUB/NCB characters during that period though. No secret about that.

it didn't used to (due to having no dex pen) it should have one now, unless Jon made special exceptions for it...

Does the MgS now have any one or two handed weapon penalties?

A Mgs gives a 1% penalty to DX with a one handed melee weapon and a 6.1% penalty to DX with a two handed melee weapon.
Thanks YourNew[forge]Monkey.

you do understand the two handed penalty changes depending on what kind of ranged weapon you have...and the 1% pen has nothing to do with your weapons, that's the base dex pen for an MgS.

Indeed, I now suffer a 6.1% penalty from my MgS. I use a Morg.

Time to switch to a BoTH? *sigh*

My DX penalty did increase by 1%, but my Morgul Hammer has no influence on the DX penalty.

A morg and an ELB (for the record...)

anyone with an AX/EX/HX on an MgS minion using a two handed weapon?

My mistake. Forgot that 2h penalty does not apply to skills...

The MgS penalties mirror the BoM. I'll update the wiki in a bit

i have an Axbow novice but when we figured it all i had equipped was a MgS and either a 1 or 2 handed melee weapon no other armor or weapons.

This change is fine, but the difference of toa tank vs non toa tank is getting too small. A 2 minions team with non toa tank have more dx st hp than 3 minions toa tank.

Actually this can be thought of as a FB boost.

Reason: TOA tanks will now need to add more dex/str to their TOA tank, making them have less HP and more vulnerable to FB as they cannot use body armor or power shields (such as a TSA and/or MgS).

Not really. It also increases CoC's effectiveness against them. Just means that the WEET is now much more mage vulnerable, since they can take your damage dealer out right from behind that wall.

What an interesting change ... I'm kind of surprised ... at first glance it sure looks like the ToA got a buff ... but hey it's more of just a change .. take away the amount that it increases your str/dex but we'll let those numbers be manipulated by your equipment? I can deal with that ...




nice change :)

I want my whining! Someone let me hear the community whine!


J/k but seriously good job jon...least whinable change i think.