Interesting----> Kitty sells out and Haterz buys in. (in General)

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i thought it was already proven that they were roomates?

How do you accuratly prove that?

AH,

True but my reasoning:

It was quite funny, Kitty was selling "down" saying she was staying. Then wham, just sold out and left. Never to be heard from again.

Now Haterz, who is Kitty's "roommate" is now buying cb2 with cash.

Quite the coincidence.

Or a great way to multi.

i was going to say something but i think it's not worth it

I'd say it'd be worth it to hear from you Haterz. You must admit this looks a bit skecthy.

If it looks sketchy then it looks sketchy. There is nothing a person can say, whether it be the truth or a fabricated lie, that can convince people otherwise. Think about it, what could Haterz say to get Ranger of his/her back? Nothing. Likewise, what can Ranger say to convince an admin that his assumptions are correct? Again it's about nothing.

Either a full-admin will find evidence of Haterz being a multi or they won't. The only thing this post can accomplish is that you can guarantee that it's been looked into.

Personally, I don't think they're the same person, though I admit the whole situation looks suspicious. Also note that Haterz was seemed to be pretty inactive during Kitty's rise and fall.

I think Kitty and Haterz have been getting sufficient attention over the past year that admins would surely have looked for evidence that they're multis, and, well, they're still here.

Removed Post, CMs are given a relative expectation of privacy, unless you disclose that it is not to be expected then it is wrong to break that basic trust.

wow, that looks pretty sketchy to me. Hmmm, i never really talked to YOU but i have talked to kitty. I was her mentor, she knew a bit when she ased questions. Everyone gave me a hard time about her being so good.

However i just told her the basics and from what i can remember she had a nice strat right out of the tutorial. She never mentioned anything about a roomate.

Well, thats just my two cents if you have any questions you can always cm me. I do remember pretty good. but i do lack proof.

I'm going to play devil's advocate for both sides of the issue:

I do have to say that I've been in the Supreme chatroom with both Kitty and You at the same time, and from their interaction, they are definitely 2 different people, and definitely roommates (it was actually pretty funny).

However, "multi" in CB terms does seem to have a rather broad definition, beyond simply 1 player with multiple accounts. It would sincerely make me sad to learn they were actually guilty of it.

Makes one wonder about the other NUB's that got top 10 characters. Whether they were multis. Like Wonderpuff (who sold out, left and is almost never on), and Goldfinger99 (who sold out, and left), and the person who made Team 7 (o wait, that was a multi).

Good thing I never dealt in USD. God knows what you might have said about me while I was gone, seeing as I was a NUB who made it to the top 10. :P

Vestax,

You never sold out like most who made the top via NUB.

Mikel is another and nothing was said about him.

Mantra is about to be number 1 and I have not said anything bad about him.

All 3 of you are very nice people. But it was well known I have had problems with WP and Kitty. Something about them, the way they played etc.. was suspicious. Perhaps just to me, but still the same.

Yeah, I suppose my MPR graph is too pathetic at the beginning to be a multi's. At least not for a very good multi.

I use my parents PP card for every online transaction. If my roommate had a PP card, I'd use that one. Hell, if Gooey had a Paypal card, I'd probably use his. Are we multies? Even if he sold out via his hard and I bought CB2 via his card?

I'll chime in here: I am 99% certain that Kitty and Haterz are different people as I've talked to them both several times (obviously this isn't conclusive evidence, but as close to it as I can get). That said, I think there is a very real possibility that a CB1 Spid situation could be occurring here-- Kitty and Haterz now focusing their combined efforts on one character. If I recall correctly this sort of thing is frowned upon (to put it lightly). I really can't say how anyone could verify this since they both play from the same computer, but I think it would behoove the admins to keep a continual eye out there for any slipups that may occur.

Roommates using the same PP is a bit odd.

When admins determine someone is/isn't a multi what standard of proof is required?

Most civil cases in the US require a "preponderance of the evidence." In a criminal trial, the standard is higher.

The admins don't share there edvidence. And no, they won't tell you either.

Think about it, if the admins told you how they catch multies, wouldn't it be easier to not do the things they look for?

I really hope the find the names of multies in fortune cookies :D

ranger u have always disliked kitty...by the way i have viewed it, you guys were always fighting about something...so your bias towards her nullifies ur thoughts really...unless an admin says its a multi..then its not, like said above...its word vs word

wait wait wait....

Haterz wants to buy nearly $1500 in CB2?

Nvm, I'm with Ranger.

Think of how much kitty actually can sell out for.
I will answer to any admin(s) come to me with questions. The rest of the community, you decide my integrity. I knew the odds are against me but I do not care, I have faith in admins and those who knows me most. I will stay right here and let's judge me.

Yes, of course my thoughts can be nullified by my dislike of Kitty.

However, the evidence is right in front of everyone.

They (if it truly is 2 people) have stated they were roommates, however it is a nice temporal relationship that after Kitty sells out for USD, Haterz is buying with USD. AND they use the same Paypal email address. If that is not illegal, I give up as to what is.

I have had plenty of roommates from college until I got married and never gave any of them access to my bank account or credit card. Hell, even some husbands and wives have separate bank accounts.

But, even if they are different people, how is not sharing the same USD made not a multi in the truest sense of the word. Since they "share" a credit card or bank account, is it not the same pool of money that is being used. Made from one account, used by another?

The key thing we tell everyone who post "my brother/wife/dog/son/etc.. is playing and we are not a multi" is do not have one sided transfers. Sharing money from one USD account, one of which sold for USD, the other buying with USD is one sided transfers in my book.

If it types like a multi, acts like a multi, spends money like a multi, then darn, it has to be a multi or some variation of the theme.

Yes... Interesting....

Not to get too deep into this, but I would like comment on what deifeln said about two room mates using the same paypal being odd. I don't find it odd at all. In fact, one of my team members (of my game dev group) doesn't have a paypal account, so whenever I send money to him, I send it to his girlfriend's paypal account.

Is anyone else disturbed that PayPal email addresses are getting thrown around in Chat Mails and then being made public in forums? (Mikel's post from Freed above).

I don't really care about the Kitty/whatever/whoever/whocares/whomever/forgodssake/whocares debacle. But if anyone ever tells anyone else my email address from PayPal (unless I have specifically made it public) I would like to see some action. That's real life.

For all I know, "green rose" was public. But can I get clarification from an admin on what CB policy is on someone publicly revealing personal information (such as an email address)?

They only thing that I can think of is that if Kitty owed him the money IRL, then I could see him simply reinvesting all her money into CB.

She sells off to pay him off, he doesn't care so dumps it all back into his account.

I am the one who asked Mikel to post that info.

If any penalty comes from it, I should receive it, not he.

But paypal does need a password to enter so just having the email linked to it is not much help.

Well, as I said before:

If this is not proven to be a multi, then I have no idea how any multi can be proved.

I guess the only real way is to see one sided transfers in the game. Otherwise even having the same paypal addy and same IP is not evidence enough.

No no, sorry to sound so harsh...I don't want penalties. In fact, it is nifty that it sort of clicked in my head... I just never thought to ask about the policy here. We all share a lot of personal information (at least I assume a lot of folks do). So, I wanted clarification on the policy (if there even is one) about divulging personal facts. I know it is largely "buyer beware" type of thing, but I have seen far less edited far more harshly before.

ooooh conspiracy theories...^_^ Much like the one about budice....=q*

oopz, did i say budice? I meant one about my buddy...;)

It's surprising to see a post with the text 'no text' having so many responses. Of course, the title draws you in.

But it is interesting, no doubt about it. And the sharing of one Paypal account? If that occurred, that practically proves collaboration and feeding.

On those dissing Ranger: he made valid points. Don't attack or try to discredit him, even though he has a known bias against Kitty/YOU. If he had REALLY been trying to hurt them, he would have posted this newest multi-argument AFTER Haterz/YOU had spent almost $1500 in USD. And as intelligent as Ranger is- I think he thought of that.

So "theoretical" party A NUBs, hard, hard enough to sell out for real cash. "theoretical" party B take said cash (and more I think) and spends it on CB. paypal accounts aside (sut: what is someone going to do, send you money? your password suck that bad?) I don't think there is a way to control this, no more than real (by the standards of the "gods") people who leave and gift everything on an account to another person. Sure it's shifty, but with that kind of money and no way to verfy who you are it's hard not to be. Now I'm the first to bash, I try to be polite to kitty, but I had a [IH8U] tag the first day I came across YOU
in chat. My opinion isn't worth a thing and based on a distainful hatred of petty trolling, but I've been known to be wrong, look at Saint Michael, I swore on bukowski that that dude was a multitrolltard, and look at him now, I've seen whole sentences out of him!

I am a little disturbed that my personal information is being used in here - could an admin remove the posts please - I am quite happy to confirm to an admin regarding my paypal transactions but not here.

CB will now only be accessed via bio-metric scan, running all these different "banks" I'm sure it's a legal requirement *snicker*. Anyone got a five point hand scanner I can borrow?

No, novice. As I told Ranger, I am not worried about my money.

I change my e-mail address every 9-12 months due to spam, etc. That timeline is based solely on how bad the address gets leaked. If you wish to be sloppy with your address, then great. Have at it.

If I tell my first name to someone on CB, say to keep it secret, and they tell it anyway (in forums), that's low. I wouldn't expect ramifications for that -- it's just a name. But at some point I do have to assume the things I say in CMs aren't going to displayed publicly.

novice: lol!

I have a question: how top players buying cb with usd can prove they are not multi?

they could have created other accounts to generate cb, and then transfer all money to their main character with fake usd...

i say if you use the same IP even once with a person you xfer with, ban and reset, even if it is a legit PP xfer of USD for CB. Get the USD somewhere else.

but it is very easy to get various ip.

even if you have only one computer, it is possible to find on the net services that can change your ip (i am not very skilled in this field though, do not know how they can do that).

i discovered this one time...

Hi,

once i played spacepioneers.de.

There existed some kind of html-form that you had to fill if you were sharing the same ip with s.b. else.
From there on you couldn't contact each other in any way (except plain messages) in that game. Transfers, visits or whatever you could have done there was forbidden by the system with a small message "You can't contact this player".

Sure, it won't help to proof that s.b. does multi, but it proofs that s.b. does not multi.
So it might be a start in the right direction.

just my 2 Cents

I'm not the biggest fan of either of them but they are 2 pretty different personalities.
$1500 is a large amount yes but if Person Xhas that much but not a PP account then why should that person not be able to give the money to Person Y so that they can use it from Person Y's PP account?
I've bought supportership from someone else with my cb2 before therefore using their PP for my stuff, should I with them all be burned as multis? (Before you go flaming that, it isn't a far removed situation other than the IP sharing).
I used to use the same computers as my mate and paid him the cash to use from his credit card, doesn't mean I am a multi.
Without any remote tangible proof of a one-sided transfer (you cannot prove that it was Person Y's money rather than Person X's) then your entire view is null and void especially after they have already been previously investigated after accusations from none other than yourself.

My wife couldn't log on to my account and fight with my character. That's illegal (whether or not she has her own CB account). The same would go for other family members or room mates.

My wife and I have out own individual bank accounts, plus a shared one (for bill etc..). If my wife won the lottery and decided to give me thousands of pounds to spend to CB would that be illegal? Whether or not she had a CB account?

If my wife had a CB account, and sold all her stuff for USD, then gave that to me to make my character better, would that be illegal?

Personally, the last seems like a funding account to me, but it's all done outside of CB, so can anything be done about it?

Have there really been a couple (three?) NUB players that have played thier NUB period then sold out for USD?

GL if she doesn't have a CB account then it doesn't matter. If she sells out, then gives you the usd, it's the same as doing one-sided transfers regardless of whether or not it was done in/out of the game setting. And since you share an IP, you are left open to public scrutiny and is suspicious looking. If she won the lottery and gave you money to use, with out selling out herself, then it doesn't look suspicious.

We can argue all day about the grey areas of the game. Until Jon/admins decide what is black and white. The point of this is thread it to bring one of those grey areas to the front and see what happens. Basically, we are waiting on a precedent to be set on handling these types of instances. If it were up to me, I'd only allow 1 IP address to be used per account just like most other games do, this way it's fair to those that play within the rules and doesn't leave as many openings for multi's to exploit.

1 IP address per account? That would stop quite a few of us playing the game then! Unless some of us start working from home....

You're not going to stop multi-ing. There will always be a way around it. And, unless you can stop real life USD (or any other currencies) transactions for in game items you are always going to have people who are driven by the possibility of making some money out of nothing.

The only way I can see of stopping that side of it is to stop completely direct player to player transactions. No transfers of in game money, or items or characters. All transactions to be carried out through the auction system and no transfer of cb cash for real life money....

Maybe I wasn't clear.
The same IP can not be used on more than one account. One account can have multiple IPs. Etc etc.

Ah, I wondered if that was what you meant. ;)

mikel that would make cb unplayable for AOL users or those in the same state with certain ISP's. most ISP's where i am from have a set pool of interchangeable IP addresses

Let me give an example of what this is like:

My wife wants to play cb. She signs up using the same IP as me and of course buys supportership via the same paypal as I have (since we are married and share an account). We never transfer stuff between the both of us.

She plays her NUB till it is over like mad, getting a top 2 character and top 2 tattoo. Then after the NUB is over, insists she is staying all the while selling her stuff off/down and storing cb2. Insisting she is staying. Then one day, all remaining assets are sold for USD. Never to be heard from again.

Then a month later I post I am looking to buy 1000 usd worth of cb2 using the very same paypal. But I give the community some excuse like "I gave her the money she made and this is different money".

Would you believe me?

No transfers in game between us, but the temporal relationship between all the actions must mean something.

If only I could pursade my wife to play for four months! ;) But she's having none of it!

you can't give evidence, well than he/she is not guilty.

in dubio pro reo

nobody blames you for doing investigations (maybe search google for equivalent nicknames and try to find there some evidences) but until you found one, please don't accuse. You still may ask for help with your investigations though.

I think the most significant aspect of this thread is being ignored. We all know that those people who shout loudest about multis are multis themselves! After all nobody could be on as often as you are Ranger without being a multi team running one account. People need sleep!

I mean there's nobody on as often as you are is there? That is if you ignore G Beee, Bast, GentlemanLoser, Novice, Maelstrom, BarzooMonkey, Me etc etc etc......

Cue Sparticus moment; 'I'm Ranger!' 'No I'm Ranger'....

This was a joke by the way... ;)

But seriously folks, there are always people who are going to want more than one account. But if you want to remove the aspect that encourages scamming, cheating and all that jazz just remove player to player transactions. If you can't move money, items or characters around then you pretty much remove the USD element. There will still be people who sell their accounts - that is sell their password for instance - but the element that inspires greed will be gone for the most part.

In game transactions would then only take part via a third party - the auctioneer - and there would be no sale of cb$ at all.

I think what Ranger's saying could indeed be true. I mean, what's to stop other players getting a or several 'room mate/s,' 'sibling/s,' or spouse to join CB and play. No in-game transactions, so no obvious signs of multi-ing. Yet this 'new' player knows the game, and is set on the dominate strategy from day one.

I'm not saying it's not possible, given all the strategy guides and so forth. But even the best noobs, started slow, you don't 'get' CB that quickly.

I think anyone who doesn't see this as an obviously multi is either being paid off or is just arguing with Ranger to argue. I think I understand what has happened (even tho there have been a hundred hypothetical situations introduced).... Kitty sold out (saw that coming) and Haterz bought in from the same PayPal account? Um, hmm... uhh... yeah, I really don't know what more has to be said. If this is true, how is this not a multi? Evidence, evidence, blah blah blah... well here's a concept.

I play CB from multiple IP's a day... as of right now my computer is kaputt so I am using my roommates (either one sometimes), then I get to school and inbetween classes I might go to a computer lab and use one there... then if I go home on the weekends I'll use my real home computer. So many IP's, who is to say I'm not having someone burn BA for me on one of those IP's (I dont do this, I am a legit addict). Basically, I'm incriminating myself to make a point... there are many multi's that go untouched in CB and it really needs to stop. I think there needs to be a new policy on what "evidence" is.

I mean, if a person "sells-out", they sell out items, characters, and account (right?) so wouldn't that mean that they quit? Not the case here, instead the money that was generated from the big sell-out was stored in PP and then used from the same account to start a NEW CB character... I think, if this is true, that this is the most obvious multi a person can find. Any semi-intelligent player realizes they cannot make big one-sided transfers within the game without suspicion of being a multi. I think what we have here is an orchestrated plan to make some money IRL and then buy back in to continue playing... isn't this wrong?

I'm sure someone has already said this, I didnt read ALL of the 60 posts... but yeah, just giving my opinion.

my 2 cents = i was wondering how long it would take Ranger to start his rant lol ...

I'm no full admin or multi-hunter, but I have spoken to both at the same time in chat .. yea they seem to be different people ..

Same PayPal account? ok .. suspicious sure .. Most people I know don't have a PayPal account .. Kitty decided to leave when she was booted from the clan. So what are you to do if you have no paypal, but want to quit playing? Buyer agrees to send USD to my address in the form of a cashiers check or money order?? Well I suppose she'd ask her roommate to let her use her PayPal account and then just withdraw the funds .. ..

*shrug*

I'm here to have fun .. I'm sure if they are multis then they'll be dealt with

johnywas is right. if you want to definitively remove all multi, then suppress all player to player transactions (except perhaps short loan or rentals for forging...)

Why do that? That's silly. Just remove the presence of USD transfers in the game, and require a PR thread for any and all 1-way transfers.

Why did Kitty really get booted from the clan, chappy?

A main reason was that she was not producing clan points, that is she was getting ready to leave CB2 well before she was booted. After her NUB was over, she "mysteriously" played less and less, all the time insta her stuff down including her large supersized tattoo. Only then she was booted. The intent to leave CB was there well before she was booted from Supreme. Your post makes it sound like she was booted from Supreme and then, because of that, decided to sell out. Perhaps I am reading your post wrong.

I know this since I was carefully looking at Kitty's playing time when her NUB ran out. It drastically dropped almost immediately after it ran out.

This whole thing is very fishy to me and should be investigated by the admins of the game. However, this can set a bad precedent if no multi is found.

well, my nub was suppressed this morning and me too I do not find this game as funny as before :-)))

I'm not a multi!

i swear it!

So what...

am I not allowed to sell out now because my NUB is just over ?

Tyra,

Of course you can sell out when your NUB is over. Quite a few people have done just that. Kitty, Wonderpuff, Goldfinger99 are just a few of the NUB's that sold out right after the NUB was over and make quite a lot of real oney.

I am just saying that given the fact Kitty and Haterz were roommates made their situation much different from yours or other people's.

Ranger, you make selling out from this game sound like some sort of conspiracy, at least when it comes to players who had the NUB. In my experience, I typically get bored of computer games after 2 to 4 months (CB being the exception).

People get tired of games, or things come up in real life, so they quit playing the game. Naturally, they're going to sell their stuff for real money - why not? Four months invested in the game that could have been spent more productively, why not make some money off of it.

Would it have made a difference to you if Kitty and Haterz had used different paypal addresses? It's quite easy to sign up for multiple paypal accounts, so they could have done that. But why waste money transferring cash between bank accounts? It's more convenient and cost-effective to use a friends account.

You guys would be fine with Claire logging on to my account and fighting with my main when I go to the Downlaod festival this year right? I'll be away for 4-5 days, but I mean, if I was at home, I would have been fighting, Claire's just doing it for me.

No?

But it would be ok for her to create an account, play for four months, sell her stuff for cash, and give that real life cash to me so I could spend it on my character. That's fine right? No foul, no harm. No in game rule has been broken.

I wonder If I could get my Mum, Dad, Sister and other freinds and family to do this for me. It's only for four months... And just think what I could do in game with that cash! :D

Hey GL, I'll do it.... provided you let me move in with you and your family. Oh yeah... you have to feed me too. ;)

I've got a spare room! You've got a deal for the next four months! ;)

Which of my family members do you want to be? ;)

PK's your daddy GL, don't you know that?

I dont see why it's so much to argue about. The evidence are clear. If they aren't Kitty/Haterz I would swear everyone would have voted for reset. I just don't see why people can just be convinced that "they" are 2 different people by just merely chatting with "them".

Just reset the multis like it used to be. Then ban them if they ever try to pull that out again,simple as that.

I read lots of misunderstandings around here, so i started a Multi FAQ.

Please don't flame, it's just a suggestion.

Let's find out if i see it right or not.

Last but not least: In my opinion Jonathan should have the last word about this 'Rules' ;-)

May I share my CB account with my friend: Yes, two persons are allowed to fight with the same account.

this one is wrong. Read the FAQs under Terms of Service.
Q: May I share my account with someone who doesn't have a CB account?
A: No. This was allowed in CB1 but it wasn't a good idea; it's disallowed in CB2.

ok, s.b. already corrected the wiki

perfect, this is how this was supposed to be ;-)

I see a lot of long-winded posts, stating what has already been stated.

I also see a lot of people arguing pretty crappy arguments.

I know neither of them, so my opinion is unbiased. Looks like a multi to me. Plain and simple.

As for people picking up the game quickly, that doesn't make someone a multi per-say. I like to think I picked this game up fast, although now that I'm 18, I don't have the time some people do.

Anyone with half a brain, a little common sense, and has no problem reading, can understand a lot of this game in a little time.

Personally, I would trust the word of Ranger's over any others in this game. I've talked to him often about a lot of different things. Ranger is a damn intelligent individual, and from what I've seen has no problem lending a helping hand when it comes to the community.

Don't bite the hand, it would be a shame to see a Ranger sellout thread.

So more or less, don't argue about the evidence, and speculate. Let the admins do their job, or atleast actually contribute to a side.

Anyone ever been in an AOL or MSN chat room? It's really really easy to act like something you're not, especially when dealing with text only.

Kitty never once have my permission to use my email address nor my paypal. Her sudden sold out surprised all of us. We were all under impression that she is going to start over with NCB. She has come to me with question about using my paypal before when Wonderpuff sold out. My answer was a clear "No". She started CB has already been damaged my image enough for months like I walk around with a big cheat sign on my back.

I was forum banned for god know how long. I got used to it already. It wasn't easy to earn that right for posting after 6 months(+) . I am glad G_Beee entrusted me with it. In return, I keep on hunting Multi as a way to return his trust. Believe it or not, my skills of hunting multi is almost as good as G_Beee nonetheless. Most of deals while i was forum banned done by CM/PM. I had hard time asking people to confirm anything in PR for me. To be able to speak again publicly is already a enough joy for me.

The reason Kitty was booted from the clan partially was 'cause of her CP's. The real reason she quit remains in Supreme clan unless it is required to be told. To me, the way Kitty left has damaged our Supreme image and its members. (MegamanV was suffered the most). But we all know what was all happened before and after she quits. I came back from 1 day bussiness trip just to find out from MegamanV what happened. And quite frankly it was too late.

Yes, I have given Kitty the money she claimed she has in my paypal. If it wasn't for tax return and the quitting of Anarchy Online, I wouldn't have that much money i claim to have (obviously, it 's way more than kitty can ever sold out for.) The only reason I decided to go out on buying credits 'cause i think chappy & Mantra & I can turn BR around (Quite frankly, chappy and Mantra is getting close to be able to).

I know how much she has damaged me in CB from the start and I am writing this just Not to try to make an excuse. I just simply answer few questions others put on me.

MegamanV (don't yet know why) has already removed me from the clan. Which is almost impossible to get me back in to start our group of 3, so the wish to beat Battle Royal has turned to dust. Thanks for the effort. You have made it.

To Ranger, I am glad that you always there for the community. You just do your job and i dont blame you or anyone here that has doubts about me.

Okay, with all the bantering thats going back and forth, I'd like to ask a question.. The idea of 2 people playing the same game on the same computer on the same Ip and even using the same paypal. Reyna and I used to be roomates until she moved a while back he supportership was paid for with my paypal as well as when she sold of some of her items I believe she made enough to pay her truck payment one time. I used to keep a healthy balance on my paypal and use it for ebay or other Internet buying So if i was to go about purchasing a ton of CB$ and gear now would this finger of Multi acusation be directed at me as well?

The roomate post was made for her and I
we both played until she moved out
Her supportership was paid with my Paypal

I play occasionaly and yes I am in the process of attempting to fund mine and my fiance's characters on Maplestory By selling my Elbow and BoNe. Am I a multi for this as well?

When Kitty and I spoke on occasion she would tell me all about life and How she didnt want her playing to affect -YOU-

So with that said, Am I a multi Ranger?

If I could comprehend what you typed, perhaps I would state you are a multi.

But alas, I am confused by the post you made.

However, Haterz and Kitty full well knew people were keeping watch of them. To use the same paypal is, IMO, the same as transferring items.

But it is not my call. However if nothing is done then a precedent is set on a perfect way to multi. Just say your "roommate/wife/son/dog/cat/neighbor" is playing. Do NOT transfer in game but sell out as soon as the NUB is over. Then take the money made that was put in your paypal account and buy cb2 for your initial account.

I realize that one cannot prove 100% someone is or is not a multi, however when an overwhelming amount of evidence is present, something needs to be done. IMO of course.

what is it the courts use for juries? "without a shadow of a doubt"?


Are you saying, Ranger, that if a legitimate friend wanted to have someone send cash to your PayPal account (because they didn't have one) so that they could sell *anything* you would tell no?

I agree. Even if You and Kitty are two different people, much like it is illegal to have two people play through one account it should be illegal to have two people pay and accept funds through one Paypal account. It just gives an unfair edge, or allows for an unfair edge.

Ox - with that logic it should be illegal to get an unfair edge by using USD to purchase cb2$

All this talk of people without paypal accounts. I will admit I do not have one. But I did hear somewhere, and correct me if I am wrong, that they are free to get? And somewhat easy to sign up for? If I were to sell out ever, would it not make more sense to spend the entire 5 minutes or however long the signup is to get my own paypal account instead of sending all the USD to say Haterz? Maybe they are not multis, but this is clearly an example of one account feeding another and a 'friend' giving hundreds of dollars in assistance to his/her 'roommate.'

I can see what you guys are saying. The fact they are 'roommates' and that one sold out for USD and the other immediately started playing big time right after and is now using the same cash account to buy back in (with the same money) is not necessarily complete proof of being a multi. But to allow this is to allow a massive circumvention to the rules of sharing accounts.

And I am sorry to say, but if you are not a multi Haterz, it was really incriminating and dumb to have your roommate send all her cash to you. There is an extreme difference between what some people have mentioned, such as a $10 supportership from a friend's account, and hundreds or thousands of dollars going to and from your friend on one account.

Maybe I am a conspiracy theorist. But the more I look at this, the more I believe Haterz thought out this conspiracy to make hundreds of dollars illegally. It was all planned out, he/she was extremely careful to avoid the normal multi signs, since she does admit to being a good 'multi-hunter.' If you know what to look for, I am sure it is easy to just not do those certain things that seem incriminating. And then Haterz got lazy, was stupid, and made a mistake of having all the cash go to and from one PP account. Maybe it was greed, and not wanting to lose a little money transferring from one account to another. I hope the administration does weigh in on this.

chappy,

The standard of proof in our criminal courts is not "without a shadow of a doubt." Rather, a person's guilt or innocence is held to the standard of " beyond a REASONABLE doubt."

Still trying not to get into the mess of things here, but just wanted to respond to Vaynard's understanding of getting paypal accounts. Getting a paypal account takes more than 5 minutes to make. Sure, you can just get an account, but you can't do anything with it unless you connect a bank account or a credit card to it, which takes time for paypal to verify. Probably doesn't really change your point, but I thought I'd like to clear that up for you ;)

It takes about 2 days to set one up to send payments. Less if you are only receiving I believe.

So let get this straight...Kitty had someone send a large amount of $US to you paypal account without your permission...sure...

So I take it the money that was sent to that account is still there, if Kitty didn't have access to your account (meaning you had not given her the password) then the money should still be there...

Obviously I have a hard time believing that she did this without your knowledge or permission. The idea she would risk that kind of money
is just silly.

YOU, ya need to start making sense and turn off your troll spaek script.

I give up,

This is so obvious as to being a multi.

And no, using USD is not illegal but using/playing 2 accounts is.

Using the same paypal is not, however, selling out and using the same paypal to then buy is. One paypal, 2 accounts.

If they were using 1 paypal to only buy USD, then, yes, it is legal. But when you start mixing selling stuff and buying stuff from one paypal, the grey area turns to black. How are we to know that in fact, they kept things separate. Haterz and Kitty's word? Of course they will say they are not a multi. People have been banned for less stating all the while they were not multi.

No other conclusion. I do not care if people say they type like 2 different people. It is easy to have another persona in a game situation.

But we do have a jury in CB. It is called the admins and Jon.

And to your question chappy: If a friend asked to use my paypal account to get money from selling stuff in cb2, I would say no freaking way. That is too dangerous and too close for comfort. I know the rules and people in cb2 better than to attempt something as foolish as that. In RL, perhaps I would. Depends on the friend.

But we have a strict one person one account rule in cb2. One has to be very careful, especially when/if you say a roommate with the same IP and computer is playing also.

I still don't see a clear connection between sharing a paypal account and being a multi, if we are going to restrict things to that level it also lowers the boom on any sort of gifting of accounts, something which has been done in the past.

I don't think the multi definition covers people gifting things, as long as the people are clearly two different people.

Really wanted to stay out of this, but it didn't work. OK here goes. The method of multi in question is simply easier to achieve when living in the same place. What's to stop childhood friends from running the same multi in different states in the union. All that is required is trust of use of a communal Pay Pal account. You are not asking people to play the account continually, you are asking one person to "quit" so that the next person gain the fruits of the first person's labor. One could argue this is a continually decreasing margin of return multi, because you get less and less of the actual NW value of an item the larger it is. So in essence, other than buying BA, its not a very efficient multi.

Also it is rife with the pitfalls of the communal trust of a pay pal account. There are several examples of how these schemes failed on cb1 when one member of the multi sold out and ran with all the goods. My wife was an admin for the end of one of those debacle. And one of my FAVORITE cb'ers was stung for an ELS in that one as well.

Anyway, in the end, I will stay my course from the other thread and say quite simply, that calling for Administrative intervention, and the resulting intevention needs be applied LESS often, not more. People should be given MORE of a benefit of the doubt, and in the end CB will be a happier place.

I say if they do things that make them obviously multi, such that an Admin says I have proof they are gone, so be it, but otherwise let it go. The constant casting of the shadow of doubt on people and their intentions by people with no power to enforce their accusations has caused an outbreak of PR posts as good people try to justify small actions for fear of reprisal. We have people dedicating themselves to hunting multi's. Not Admins, just people. Has CB become so lack luster that community has to generate vigillantes to police what is often a minor and inconsequential multi, for entertainment? I may be a bit player in the CB cosmos, but if I run out of BA I do something else I enjoy, not track item transfers for something fishy.

In conclusion:

If it is a multi, its an inefficient one, and its going to collapse on its own.

We should have fun playing the game.

Stop hunting multi's and evil doer's and start hunting that guy who has a higher score than you, you can beat for great rewards.

(P.S. yah I know Ranger, that last bit does not apply, since there aren't any.)

Forget the admins and Jon as the judge and jury, we need Judge Reinhold and the William Hung jury!

*Disclaimer: Judge Reinhold is not a real judge.*

Sef, that's just burying your head in the sand. A multi is a cheat, and cheats have no place here. The Admin team is only so large and can only devote so much time to rooting out cheating. Memebers of the community keeping a watcful eye for cheats and posting their finding for varification help the community, Admins and game.

Cheats deserve no respect, cammarderie nor friendship. They devalue the game.

I totally and completely disagree. If there are not enough admins, and we need an alternate force to find multis, appoint them. They do not need to have any extra powers other than the sanction of the admins to help them find multis.

To suggest that a player should play and an admin (or someone acting as a representative of an admin) should act like an admin is not burying my head in the sand. Its the only way to be fair.

Self appointed CB guardians may not be cheating, but in my opinion they hurt the game a lot more than some guy 10 days into the game with 3 lousy strat accounts.

Sefton:

You are missing a key point. It is actually a quite effective multi, if you make a NUB account.

Look at Kitty: Massive tattoo and massive character. Those were her 2 largest assets. The massive tattoo insta'd at more than 150% initially all the way down, and her character sold for a nice sum as well. If you look, nothing she had was that large. The MH she had was about 8-9 million NW and not really hers to begin with. It was a long term loan that she sold out from under that person who was nice to her.

I think with the NUB, the temptation is so great that more people going to try it then in cb1. So more admin intervention is needed. Especially when one of the main rules of the game is 'one person/one account'

ok, i just did some research (or maybe call it investigations if you like)

here is what i did first: i looked through the posts Kitty and Haterz made what was i looking for? i wasn't sure, probably for 'unique' styles in posts

so first i found the following, what i believed was pretty equal style:

Kitty: 1 ('noone overbid' and 'Noone is winning')
Haterz: 2 ('NOONE')
Haterz: 3 ('Post your stat/')
Haterz: 4 ('TOE sold/')
Kitty: 5 ('stat/type/rate')
Haterz: 6 ('stat/price')
Haterz: 7 ('should eclan get')
Haterz: 8 ('he only use one')
Haterz: 9 ('noone else is going to flirt w/')
Haterz: 10 ('/console/cheat')
Kitty: 12 ('Congrat, i guess')
Kitty: 12 ('/me is')
Kitty: 13 ('p/p')
Kitty: 14 ('p/p')
Kitty: 15 ('bill/bid')
Kitty: 16 ('snoop/peep')

1: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001fiJ
2: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001e4J
3: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001bFy
4: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001bNG
5: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001eO4
6: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001Zn3
7: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001Ak0
8: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001YAk
9: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001ZWY
10: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001cfp
12: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001UcJ&all_p=1
13: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001V71
14: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001WGi
15: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001WJZ
16: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001XOq&all_p=1

This often usage of '/' and especially 'stat/' made me think they are the same.

After a while i got attention to the word 'offer' and it's usage, so i continued with my research:

'please post offer stat/price here, thank you! ' (Haterz 17)
'Post your stat/ offer here' (Haterz 18)
'Please include your offer with stat/type/rate' (Kitty 19)
'Please include your' (Kitty 20)

17: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001Zn3
18: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001bFy
19: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001eO4
20: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001WPi

So here Haterz always used "Post" and Kitty always used "include".

This makes me think that they are not the same person.

Feel free to find more (not-)coincidences.

It's part of a community action to help the Admins. Do we really need to set up special 'secret police' type multi hunters?

Letting a multi fade on it's own because the majority of them might be uneffective is just burying your head in the sand. Well, not quite, as you accept the problem exists, you are just unwilling to help do anything about it.

Saying it's not your job, leave it to those it is, isn't a community spirit. It just forces a divide between regular players and admin.

Maybe I've just been exposed to too many people who say to me, "It's not my job, I'm not doing it"...

I always liked it when YOU types perfect english and kitty would occasionally falter in hers

Again, I have to disagree, its only effective until (and this assumes facts I have yet to be seen proven) Kitty gets mad at Haterz and steals all the money from the paypal account and takes off. It will happen eventually. Their is no honor among thieves.

If that were to occur today, the "multi" would be actually kitty quitting and selling out for USD and running off with her hard earned money. So ineffect, she is gifting over $1K USD to Haterz? That lasts until Kitty needs new shoes. Husband and wife team OK maybe, past that, I wouldn't even count on siblings holding it together.

Lets put it to you another way Ranger, you and I will start that multi, you start, when you are done with your NUB, send all your money you earn to a pay pal address I will send you in CM, and I will use it to make the best NUB char you ever saw ;)

(or I might fix the tranny on my Probe, but SHHHHH)

OK GL, I have has a suspicious individual prowling around my neighborhood. The police do what thet can but they are not enough, I need you to come over here, and protect me.

If you don't you are burying your head in the sand to a true problem that exists, and are not doing your part to help our communal earth.

If you do, and you bring guns? Let me move first I have small children at home.

Thats the best I could do without a long spell it out for you on the dangers of the community policing itself speech. Why you do not think that the same dangers exist here, I cannot say, but they do.

Community Watch? When you're out and someone breaks into your house, your nice community watch neighbour phones the police before the criminal has a chance to leave. And is nabbed red handed.

Happened on my street.

Otherwise, they leave with all your possessions before you return home hours later to raise the alarm.

I hope by the time this thread hits 100 post. Someone actually be nice enough to tell me how can i fit back into my old clan 'cause MegamanV thinks if I get banned, Supreme will also get nuked.

Gah, that should have read Neighbourhood Watch... >_

Yah that community watch can work great. It's really a group of neighbors saying I will look out for your house. The Guardian Angels, well that didn't work out so good. So yes I say you happen to stumble on an obvious multi, as a responsible member of the community you should turn them in.

But if your community watch includes one neighbor who spends 90% of their waking time with a pair of binoculars and a window, watching you, and your home very carefully. I would be more worried about him.

Which is my point. If you find a multi, turn them in. But its not your job to look for them. If we have such a problem that we need to be looking for them, them appoint people to do so. If we don't, GOOD I will hopefully see a lot of this dude is suspicious posts and MORE of my character kicks your character's butt.

This is starting to feel like Jerry Springer....

Jerry Jerry Jerry!!... oh haha

I will say something in all seriousness now. Looking over this thread I'm not sure how good an idea this is. Right here in front of us we have ourselves a witchhunt. Now if there was definite proof You/Haterz and Kitty would have been long gone - at least if past multi's were anything to go by. Super Admins G Beee and Bart would have jumped on them from a great height. And with this post I'm fairly sure they've been looking.

So is this continued attack, based on barely circumstantial evidence and a lot of opinions necessary? There is enough here to go on to keep the admins watching and investigating I would say. I'm not sure it shows our community up in a good light to keep on with this. Bring it to light yes. But keep scratching at the scab in the hope of seeing some blood no.

Just my view.

It's not my job to fight. Or hosts contests. Or make lighthearted drunken posts. I have no job here.

If I find suspicion of a multi, I will pass that on to the admins to check. I can't do that via CM, so I will post it in PR.

What is the difference between passing my time fighitng, hosting contests, making lightheated post, or looking for mulltis? None of that harms the community, only helps it.

If I post suspicion of a multi and it turns out to be false, I hope the parties involved can be mature enough to say "Hey thanks for looking out for us as a whole GL." and not take it as some kind of personal attack. I can't ban, I can't make any lasting changes, what harm can I cause to the game or community?

I could even make it my 'job' here to out bid central bank every time it makes a 15 minute left bid.

:) Johnny makes a very good point. I'm still in favour of normal players helping find multi's / other forms of cheating, but if anyone wants to carry this discussion on, I think we should take it to another post / CM. :)

i will put my 2 cents in i guess. looking at the evidence objectively it looks very very sketchy. i talked to Haterz today though and there are some very different things about kitty and haterz. a week ago if i would have seen this evidence i would have said i was 100% sure they were multies but as of this very second i am uncertain. if i am uncertain i doubt an admin will have a clear cut decision either way so... i doubt anything will happen

Only helps the community? As I agree with Jonny, this kind of thing helps?

What about if you and I are bidding on the same tattoo, so I go digging around, find some minor but not obvious transfer, post my strong worry over the ingegrity of the transfers and the individual, then pop off a quick CM to the seller of the goods about being careful about dealing with you as you are untrustworthy.

So you are later found to be of course innocent, but there are not 50 posts about the clearing of your name, just one lonely one. And I have my tattoo. Again, it may be an extreme example, but when setting policy you have to consider the extreme.

So Ill say the same thing I said about rules, in Utopia your idea works, the community helps police and its a nice tidy place. It does not and will not work in the real world. Every proposed Utopia from minds greater than I by scales of magnitude has failed. You know Communism in its philosphical form looks nice, just does't work in a world with bad people, no Utopia does. So you can end up a police state or a democracy, or perhaps in this case a beign dictatorship, but in the end, the people should not and will not properly police themselves.

i juste proofed that they are not the same person .. (at least for me)
take a look about 15 posts above ..

i really think this is a very messed up situation.... and it is very let us say--- convenient timing for YOU to be coming up being able to buy 120 mil after kitty sells out....

this is kind of off subject but

So much for CB2 being "Exploit" free. With USD and this thread, anyone in the CB community can now exploit this and use it to the fullest.

to clarify: You and Kitty arent being tried as the same person, i think it is established that they are 'Roomates'. However they may have been using the same account....Is that correct?

And when is an admin/Jon going to step into this thread?

You people only bring about your own big brother scenario.

I'd hate to make such a direct comparison, and indeed this is no reflection of the character of anyone who has contributed to this post, but the Nazis had concerned citizens too that would point out Jews and un-patriotic souls as well. As I said in the beginning, if this post was to accomplish anything, it did so from the first post. Talking about it more only brings about the ruin of yourselves.

More importantly:

QBRanger, 6:43 PM EST "I give up ...."

Now who's the tease?

Thanks Vestax. Thank you for showing us that Godwin's Law is alive and well. :P

Yeah, I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those meddlesome pirates. Even if the comparison is an unfair way to end the discussion, the end of the discussion is still warranted.

Jinkies. I doubt the discussion will end just like that. :P

I can't be bothered to read all the posts, can someone summarize everything for me? ;)

Ok. Here goes...


"Kitty/Haterz is a multi."

"No they aren't."

"Yes... here is evidence."

"Anyone can do that."

"Nazis."


That's the Cliff's Notes version of the topic. Want more? Sorry, you'll have to read it all for yourself. :P

i've got an idea, how about we stop accusing him of being a multi , and try to find the real ones that are out there :D

Who cares?

Personally, I don't get the whole ban on multis. Every other text-based MMO that I've played online has allowed multis and hardly ever check for them. If someone has the time, why not let them play more? Why does this game take itself so seriously?

And if it's all about the cash..well, CB is hardly the only game where the online currency translates into real world money. Frankly, it'd be nice if the value of the CB2 dropped. It's silly to have items worth roughly $20 or more, simply because a lucky few bottle-neck the economy.

CB2 is a completely player versus player game based around quasi-infinite growth. That means you never reach a level cap. That also means that the rate at which you obtain resources, aka money and xp, is everything that matters to people in this game.

If you can have dual accounts then you can have twice the growth in money. (USD almost makes this argument meaningless.) If you can contently switch to a new new user bonus account then you can grow an amazing tattoo, which is almost like growing xp. These advantages would be inherently unfair.

Then again, you could always argue that their is no special advantage if everyone can make multiple accounts. Though that solves the fairness issue it has other effects too.

The first is that it defeats the point of a BA system. The cap exists so that fighting becomes a strategic act and not a random click-fest. Plus it helps lower the load on Jon's poor server.

Second, it destroys the concept of identity. Instead of one person to one account, you have multiple accounts to one identity. But keeping track of who is who would be infinitely difficult and allow for a host of scams. I don't want to have to deal with five versions of PirateKing, god knows one is enough.

Third is that it destroys the concept of punishment. If a person brakes the rules then it would become a strike one and your out deal. We would need to perma-ban your ip because forum banning, fining, reseting, kicking, and killing would all be useless acts of punishment in the face of a true annoyance.

There you have it, the short answer. If you really want maybe sometime I could send you the long one in CM.

'I don't want to have to deal with five versions of PirateKing, god knows one is enough. '

LOL!

Hey, I don't want to deal with five versions of me either. :P

You have some kind of alarm that notifies you when your name is mentioned PK? Like GL and his TULWARS?!?!

Yeah. It's kinda like the Google Toolbar exploit that people were using to camp the stores way back when. :P

wow I found a spelling mistake from that length stuff !!! yay to me !!

"If a person brakes the rules " ==> BREAKS

You only found one? :)

It's technically not a spelling error since it is a valid word. :P

Good god. I get woken up by Tulwars for no reason?

;)

What IS it with you and tulwars anyway?

If you have to ask, you'll never understand.

Well someone could at least make the attempt.

Another one of those women things again Bast? ;)