Largest tattoo in game about to be surpassed? (in General)

Sacredpeanut February 22 2006 7:24 AM EST

Steeds of the Apocalypse lvl 1,789,000 owned by QBRanger (The Apocalypse Book)
Men of Carn Dûm lvl 1,753,000 owned by Mikel (Mikel III)

Mikel has the NCB for about ten more days which will probably be enough time for his tattoo to pass Rangers in size.

I like the NCB but I have one criticism of it - it allows users to grow tattoo's beyond the rate possible by normal characters.

Example - Mikel restarts a new NCB character and plays the same way he has been, in about two months his character will be large enough that his max tattoo will be greater than his tattoo level and his tattoo will start levelling again, since his NCB will be around 160%, his tattoo will grow 2.6x faster than Rangers. So even though his tattoo is only levelling for two months while Rangers is levelling for four, it will still increase levels faster since when it does level, it levels at more than twice the speed. Once Mikel's NCB expires again he can rinse and repeat, as long as his USD stores don't dry up.

On top of this he could rent out his tattoo during the first two months of his NCB and increase his tattoo's growth rate even further.

There is three ways this could be stopped (none of which would be popular).

1) Remove $US/$CB2 exchanging - buying BA with the NCB is expensive, and to do so for a long period of time requires $US. Without the cash to buy BA growing a Tattoo at a faster rate becomes much more difficult. Removal of CB2 buying would be difficult to enforce and would not be very popular so probably wouldn't be a good candidate.

2) Reduce the max tattoo level - currently grows at about twice the speed that a tattoo grows at, reducing the level to closer to MPR (perhaps around 1.2x-1.4x MPR) would make fast Tattoo growth with the NCB more difficult as it would take longer for a NCB character's max tattoo level to get higher than their tattoo level. Again probably not very popular as it would kill the tattoo market somewhat.

3) Make tattoo's level at the normal (non NCB/NUB) rate. Again this would not be popular but you can apply the same logic that's used to justify not giving NCB characters a cash bonus to extend to not giving NCB characters a bonus to their tattoo.


Note: I do not necessarily think that any of the above are good ideas, but they are solutions to this problem (if indeed this is a problem). Certainly the current system allows USD spenders to increase their tattoo to levels beyond that of the top non NCB players, even if the NCB player cannot him/herself become the top player in terms of MPR.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 22 2006 7:27 AM EST

It's the reason I'm starting a new NCB character.

I'll not be fighting at a higher rate, so I would be better staying with Tate, but my Max Tattoo is already so much largerthan my tattoo and growing larger than tattoo can, that with a new bonus and a larger one at that, I'll be able to power level my tattoo (after my new bonus characters max tattoo level is big enough of course).

I'll probably do it again after, depending on how close my Tattoo is then to my new Max...

TrueDevil [AAA] February 22 2006 8:16 AM EST

IMO, Number 3 is a great idea.

QBsutekh137 February 22 2006 9:52 AM EST

If Jonathan implements Number 3, there are going to be a lot of angry NCB folks-to-be. Anyone starting a new character after that change (if they planned to do it with a tattoo) would be quite a let-down.

Though that falls firmly under "Que sera, sera", I suppose.

QBOddBird February 22 2006 10:47 AM EST

Heh, it's already been having an impact this entire time, with NUBs having been here.

Tattoo value has dropped massively. (Considering I made my first 10 mil in this game off of a 12 mil NW tattoo.)

It simply means that they aren't worth as much, and how could Ranger complain? This means even HE might be able to insta up now!

I dunno. Yeah, it's weird that you can have a tattoo as big as the top character's in only 4 months, but it doesn't strike me as a big deal, really.

Sacredpeanut February 22 2006 6:13 PM EST

"Yeah, it's weird that you can have a tattoo as big as the top character's in only 4 months, but it doesn't strike me as a big deal, really."

I have no problem with NUB players getting a top tattoo in four months, because they are starting with nothing and effectively playing CB from start to four months from now in a compressed four month form.

The problem with NCB characters getting the bonus is that they can play for four months with an existing large tattoo. The same logic is used for not giving a cash bonus to NCB users - they should already have cash from previous characters whereas NUB's have nothing.

Of course without USD this isn't a problem, and only a few people are willing to spend the amount of USD necessary to buy all BA for a NCB character

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 22 2006 6:26 PM EST

Easy solution would be to lower the Max tattoo level. It quickly outgrows the level a tattoo grows at, which is strange. If it was orignally implementated to stop people using oversixed tattoos, why doesn't it increase near the rate a tattoo does? My character has a MPR of 600K and a max tattoo level of twice that. If I had grown a level 20 tattoo from scratch with my character, It would never have reached level 1.2 Mil.

Ox [StephenMelinda Gates Fund] February 22 2006 6:28 PM EST

if you want some hard data on growing from lvl 20...

I have the NCB and have been growing a level 20 tattoo right when I started the NCB:

498,963 MPR

Oxtetor the Great lvl 524,020

Max tattoo: 955,020

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 22 2006 6:34 PM EST

Why is your max tattoo level so high compared to a naturally grown tattoo?

Ox [StephenMelinda Gates Fund] February 22 2006 7:03 PM EST

As said before, Max Tattoo grows considerably higher than natural tattoo growth, even with NCB.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 22 2006 7:05 PM EST

To compensate for Ranger's tattoo, it was leveled using a few different methods originally. I don't see any of the aformentioned ideas passing the test...maybe 3, but if that gets going it'll be lots of fun...

[T]Vestax February 22 2006 7:06 PM EST

1) To stop USD/CB$ trade you need to disallow all trades, or at least all trades without in-game items being traded in both directions. This makes donations and contests impossible. No free trading equals no CB community fun. So I would say that's a big nay on this one.

2) Jon's first response to this one will be "wrong". That's not exactly how Max Tattoo level grows at all. I suppose you can still argue to bring the max tattoo down regardless of how it scales. Yet, I would encourage you to read on.

3) This will not do since it goes completely against the concept of the tattoo. If the tattoo does not keep in pace with the character then it becomes obsolete. Not everyone will be working with an already over-sized tattoo, and even still the size of the character can easily outpaced it if your plan is implemented.

To be honest though, if you want balancing factors then look no further then a few of the existing constraints. The first is that of the Max Tattoo Level. Yeah, sure it's really high, but still it does cap the progress of tattoo progression. Second, tattoos are of limited use when they exceed the MPR of the character using them. (Familiars are an exception to this I know. Particularly the satanic FF.) Third is the tradability of tattoos, sure Ranger might be outpaced, but with higher tattoos in the market he will surely have a chance to insta one up at sometime.

As far as Ranger goes he has more going for him then just his tattoo. Besides, why does it matter? What sacred thing can possibly be in danger because of this? You need to work more on stressing why this is such a travesty in the first place before you can even get me to consider a "solution".

P.S. Not all NUBlets start with "nothing". USD is something and Mikel had plenty of it when he started and has plenty of it still now. History lessen for you, Mikel had a tattoo hundreds of times larger then his MPR within his first month of game play. This was also before the Max Tattoo Level so all of those levels counted and yes it did grow from the instant he put it on. So technically this exact situation has already happened before with Mikel when he had a NUB and so I see no reason get so uptight. Just relax.

[T]Vestax February 22 2006 7:09 PM EST

Just in case I didn't make it clear enough. Number 3 is an absolutely horrible "solution" to this "problem". It's absurdity is only surpassed by solution number 1.

QBRanger February 22 2006 7:22 PM EST

This will not be the first time my tattoo will be passed, as 2 days ago it will not be the first time my character will be passed.

CB2 is acting just the way Jon wants it to be.

One thing I have learned is that threads like this serve almost no purpose then to incite people.

Let us move on to other things of interest, such as how a foreign country is about to have control over the US port system.

QBRanger February 22 2006 7:23 PM EST


Can I get an: Interesting....

put in front of the title. It seems the vogue thing to do. That is ask for some admin to ask for thread titles to be changed and get it done.

[T]Vestax February 22 2006 7:27 PM EST

Only because everyone wants to be like you Ranger. You're a trend setter.

Sacredpeanut February 22 2006 7:28 PM EST

It's not that I'm getting uptight about this, I don't even think any of the above are particularly good ideas as I stated in my original post. Infact if any of the above got implemented I would lose out myself (except with number 1).

The "problem" is this as I see it, NCB characters can grow a tattoo at a faster rate than non NCB characters, even allowing for the period when the Tattoo doesn't level (when Max Tattoo < Tattoo level). Basically this would allow someone like Mikel (if he wanted to spend the USD) to level a tattoo at a faster rate than say Ranger, even though he may never be able to pass Ranger in MPR.

Of course some people (like yourself) may not see this as a problem and that's fine.

1) Yes I agree it is not a very good idea, although I disagree that it would mean the end of contests.

2) Yes I'm aware that Max Tattoo growth is more complicated than that, Max Tattoo grows slowly early on (slower than MPR)then increases at an increasing rate. Simply scaling back the rate of increase of the Max Tattoo would solve the "problem" though.

3) "If the tattoo does not keep in pace with the character then it becomes obsolete. Not everyone will be working with an already over-sized tattoo, and even still the size of the character can easily outpaced it if your plan is implemented."

I was just applying the same reason that NCB characters don't gain a cash bonus to Tattoo's. Players should have a large tattoo from a previous character just like they should have CB cash. If they have sold it for USD then that's unfortunate for them. (Of course using an RoE complicates this).

[T]Vestax February 22 2006 8:15 PM EST

NCB characters grow fast, therefore their tattoos grow fast. That is not a problem with me. But please, let me formalize your argument for you.

You are arguing against the status quo saying that something is wrong and a solution needs to be done about it. Your only argument is a Disadvantage (Disad).

The impact of this Disad is that a NCB character can grow a tattoo faster then Ranger. I tried to look for more impact but it just wasn't there. In all honesty the 'impact' lacks any serious consequence. It looks more like a link to a actual impact, but as hard as I might look I see no catastrophic event.

I will admit that your Disad is not all you have going for you. You also put forth 3 plans of action.

For your first plan of action you argue for is the end of all USD trades. My argument from before was that in order to enforce it all trades would need to require items and/or cash going in both directions. The impact of my argument was that this would lead to the end of all contests. Your argument against my point is essentially, "no it won't". Yes it will. In order for the enforcement of no USD sales to work you need trades to be fair. If they are not made with items/cash going both ways then USD sales continue. People will take their sales to off-site forums or to PM/CM and simply call their trades, gifts or contest prizes. The impact of sending these USD sales underground is that it opens the game up to less sophisticated scamming. As a sub-admin I will not ensure the protection of your deal if it is not in public record.

For your Second plan, you simply suggest that the Max Tattoo Level be not as high. This plan is grounded on nothing more then an opinion of what a good Max Tattoo Level is. It is also very reliant, as all your plans are, on the fact that their is a need to change things in the first place.

For you third plan of action you suggest that tattoos grow at a normal rate. As I have said this is a horrible idea since tattoos growing at such a disproportionate rate to the character leads to the need for constant insta ups and makes the tattoo an obsolete piece of equipment quite quickly. Not even the fact that a tattoo might start out at a high level can save the tattoo from being outpaced if you suggest such a drastic change in how the NCB works. Plus as time goes on the bonus will only get bigger, thus making the problem only worse.

Your argument against the above is that tattoo growth is no different then cash growth. This is a very bad comparison indeed. Cash can be supplemented in a multitude of ways and the limit of money that can be obtained is only limited to the total amount of cash that exists in the game. However, tattoos are limited in that the levels of tattoos can not be combined or divided at will. There is no way to stack tattoos because you can only have one tattoo on at a time. The limit of the tattoo level you can have is not the total level of all tattoos in the game. You are instead limited to the highest level of an individual tattoo. This makes the growth of an individual tattoo very important. Making that growth substandard makes the tattoo itself substandard. Cash on the other hand is never lessened by a limitation on it's growth.

As I see it you have only one real plan of action for a problem that does not have any impact on CB itself. To top it all off, you haven't really made it clear why the NCB is any different the the NUB. My example of Mikel from when he started clearly undercuts any argument you have already made, since his ready supply of USD made him no different then a NCB player.

Mikel February 22 2006 8:29 PM EST

Wow, was the talk of the Town with my NUB, now again with the NCB.
Anyways, I have already thought about this. I'm still unsure what I want to do. I might start over, I might not, either way, I already have both routes planned out.

stabilo [Lonesome fighter] February 23 2006 12:08 AM EST

well, i guess the common problem with NCB and NUB is just that at this thime (14 month after CB2 started) NUBs and NCBs might achive one of the top positions. I'm sure that in another 14 month there is no way to achive this again! It's only now that the lines are crossing. In few month the biggest tatoo will be much bigger than any tatoo within NCB-time will grow, and if you decide to start over, your NCB just won't be enough to reach the top MPR within that time .. Ranger will just have another 1mil MPR more.

I don't see any problem here. When my NCB ends, there is no way i'll start over. I'll hava a tatoo at some decent level, and there is the decision whether i want a bigger tatoo with much less MPR or a much higher char. Well, that's not a really hard decision, is it?


sssimmo February 23 2006 12:19 AM EST

Stabilo, the NCB is calculated from the top MPR. So therefore if you start one now you have just as much chance in reaching the top as you would have if you started in six months time.

Mikel February 23 2006 3:38 PM EST

Correct, and in my case, I'm getting a Pocket PC soon, with 24/7 internet ability. So I won't miss much ba while I'm at work. Which means that of all of the ba that I missed/am missing won't happen again. So that should make my character even better MPR wise. Now throw in that I have a nice Tattoo already, let me use my RoE for a month and a half and I should be able to level up my Tattoo again.

QBRanger February 23 2006 4:03 PM EST

And now that there is a new top character the NUB/NCB will be higher. Esp if Cosmos buys more minions, then the NUB/NCB will be even further raised.

Stephen February 23 2006 4:51 PM EST

I'll probably start an NCB char in a year, when you'll be able to make 1M MPR a week

QBRanger February 23 2006 4:55 PM EST


That is not at all a bad plan.

With the NUB as it is, we may very well see a 2 Million MPR character in the next 4-5 months. That is a single FB mage with a ROE until about 1 million MPR, then using a FF till the NUB runs out. Only then, after the NUB is over, buying 3 minions.

If Cosmos buys 2 more minions, were looking at about 1.6 million MPR already in 14 months of game play.

[T]Vestax February 23 2006 5:59 PM EST

If you have a problem with the FB RoE strat then invest in GA.

Yeah, I know that doesn't cover what your talking about, but I can't give you my full 2 cents until I get mine back from Jon.
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