What is with 1 NUB char account and USD seller? (in General)

Arorrr February 22 2006 10:48 PM EST

I have sometime tonight, so I check the FS forum. I come up with this correlation between 1 NUB char account and USD seller:

1. They are all have 1 char per account.
2. As a new user joining after 2006, they are pretty good with strategy-wise. Score/PR ratio is much higher than the norm and getting top score (>1M score).
3. They learn the way of USD selling, quickly.
4. They are not interest in developing their characters and tend to stick to the cheapest mage strategy by not having to spend their CB$ on developing characters.
5. Their Forum Post count are near 0, if you take out all of the USD FS posts.

How many of us here who been playing for a while? How many characters that it take before we settle to a good strat? How many of us that wants to spend all of our hard earn CB$ on armours and weapons, even to the extreme of earning them through loanning?

Lately it seems some of the "good" (score/PR ratio, >1M score) NUB users are just here to earn CB$ and cash them out. They are not contribute anything to the community. For example, what happen to the loanning market lately? It uses to be us, the new learners who just start out, saving pennies for the next set of armours and weapons because one reason only: We Love the Game! We actually spend time to play and to invest and to involve in the CB community, not for USD.

Not only that, how do these single char NUB learn to be good so fast, if indeed this is their first char. And if they love the game that much (seeing how much they fight in a short time), why selling all CB$ that they earn and not reinvest in the game? Are they here *gasp* to grin and earn USD, as in EQ/WoW? What's next? Chinese CB farms?

I can point to 2 NUB single char that play no more than a month and half. Yet, their intention is plain: USD. Just have to check the FS post. The some of the biggest sellers are: single char NUB with minimal investment.

One must wonder and ponder, when one has time on his hand.


QBRanger February 22 2006 10:51 PM EST

And you just noticed this tonight?

It has been going on for quite a while now.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] February 22 2006 11:22 PM EST

sure has

[T]Vestax February 22 2006 11:31 PM EST

Close FS/WTB to new players. Require that they contribute to the other parts of the forum in order to gain their FS/WTB privileges. Exclude Public Record and Forging from the requirements since such forums make it easy to post repeatedly without much out of the ordinary behavior.

stabilo [Lonesome fighter] February 23 2006 12:21 AM EST

you **must not** overregulate cb!

that's bad for everybody, especially for those that you want to protect.

if you want a better cb-world, then just don't buy from such chars, maybe start a thread or make a website where you list such players, and advertise to not buy CB$ or anything else from such chars for US$. Maybe add another list for players that still did, and also don't buy from those .. maybe try to explain this to M****ll (no personal offense!) and some others.

this are my 2 cents for this,


Sukotto [lookingglas] February 23 2006 12:22 AM EST

So they would just have to make a bunch of "me too!" posts in the general threads? Too easy to abuse. And if you make things too restrictive to new players they won't stick around.

[T]Vestax February 23 2006 12:29 AM EST

"me too" posts would amount to a dead giveaway that they are just posting for the FS/WTB rights.

As for not trading with them, that doesn't do anything since they just want to trade with themselves anyhow.

stabilo [Lonesome fighter] February 23 2006 12:33 AM EST

"As for not trading with them, that doesn't do anything since they just want to trade with themselves anyhow. "

How do you think this would work?

Player 1: wants US$
Player 2: wants US$

during the game:
Player 1: hey, i'm selling big char, big tatto, 500 mil CB$ for only 13.5US$
Player 2: great Player 1, please buy my 500 mil CB$ too, then you may try to sell 1.000mil CB$ for even more US$

end of the game:
Player 1: dam, couldn't sell anything for US$, i'll go back to WoW
Player 2: dam, couldn't sell anything for US$, i'll go back to WoW


Stephen February 23 2006 12:46 AM EST

"And if you make things too restrictive to new players they won't stick around"

But aren't they all multis of older players anyway? ;)

AdminJonathan February 23 2006 12:46 AM EST

from the "be careful what you wish for" dept., the only really foolproof way to remove USD influence would be to remove all non-auction transfers...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 23 2006 12:47 AM EST

and you would never do that right Jon? Jon?....ummm

stabilo [Lonesome fighter] February 23 2006 12:51 AM EST

great idea Jonathan, maybe you should do a poll about this!

(this is NOT ironic! if i wanted to use ironic in my post i would use tags like <IRONIC-START>something ironic</IRONIC-STOP>

please see this as a really option to this game!

deifeln February 23 2006 12:53 AM EST

And even removing all non-auction transfers wouldn't remove the USD influence on CB2 currency.

Player 1 agrees to buy 1 million CB2 from player 2 for $14 USD.
Player 2 puts a Tulwar in auctions with a 1 million BIN.
Player 1 buys low NW Tulwar for 1 million CB2.

Is it possible that the NUB could be changed to give less bonus on money obtained asfight rewards?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 23 2006 12:54 AM EST

You just have the people with the money buy it for you?
I dunno, it's a tough sell...ban $US now and people will say you're locking
it down for Ranger or Freed.

And how hard would it be to have someone buy a worthless item in auctions for a huge sum in exchange for $US?

Flamey February 23 2006 12:55 AM EST

we don't want that to happen now

stabilo [Lonesome fighter] February 23 2006 12:58 AM EST

To still allow instas:
- add a insta-auction, where you are able to specify rate and preferred level after insta and how much you value each of those points

To still allow contests:
- add a random-number-signin, where you may place several items, specify how many numbers / player , how many different numbers at all, how much one number costs and a sign-in for participants
People will still be able to make some kind of funny/interesting/creative contest out of this. in the end it's all about a random-number picked out of a specified range. Maybe don't provide a list of all number-contests, but just give the owner a link he can use in his thread, where everybody interested may click to buy a ticket.

.. so only the regular auctions are not the only option!

[T]Vestax February 23 2006 1:05 AM EST

Maybe you could institute a different transfer fee system.

Player A transfers lots of money and NW from his account to others.
Player B takes in lots of money and NW without making transfers in the other direction.
Player C makes a lot of transfers but in both directions.
Player D hardly ever transfers outside of auctions.

You could make it so Player A (and if you want Player B as well) receive heavier transfer fees the more they make one-way transfers. While Player C and Player D often find themselves paying the minimum in transfer fees.

stabilo [Lonesome fighter] February 23 2006 1:15 AM EST

"Player 1 agrees to buy 1 million CB2 from player 2 for $14 USD.
Player 2 puts a Tulwar in auctions with a 1 million BIN.
Player 1 buys low NW Tulwar for 1 million CB2."

this is still a problem i accept ..

possible solution: don't let players sell stuff for more than they earned themsleves already + some % (maybe 50%)

If you really work hard with buying low and selling high, you must be very very good to make more then 50%, so this would not be of a problem for any non-US$ spender.

Sacredpeanut February 23 2006 1:19 AM EST

"And even removing all non-auction transfers wouldn't remove the USD influence on CB2 currency.

Player 1 agrees to buy 1 million CB2 from player 2 for $14 USD.
Player 2 puts a Tulwar in auctions with a 1 million BIN.
Player 1 buys low NW Tulwar for 1 million CB2."

Remove BIN option, make Auctions last a minimum of 12 hours, problem solved :)

Sacredpeanut February 23 2006 1:22 AM EST

Actually it wouldn't now I think about it, someone could still place a huge bid on a worthless item. Any ridiculous bids would look very suspicious though.

[T]Vestax February 23 2006 1:24 AM EST

I bid 1 million on a Tulwar and my now the USD spender has to wait a whole 12 hours to get it. Oh the agony.

I still like my modified transfer fee idea. I suppose you should make it apply to auctions too though. It would significantly hinder the sell outs ability to make money.

Adminedyit [Superheros] February 23 2006 2:39 PM EST

You know how you remove the USD market? You don't use it. I my self have bought items and $$ for USD. I don't see a problem with it but I also plan on sticking around (even though my NUB has ended). If a SFB NUB builds massive CB$ and wants to sell it when their NUB expires let them. If they quit because of lowered rewards that is just $$ lost to the rest of us.

maulaxe February 23 2006 7:12 PM EST

Selling money during your NUB proves that you have no intention of playing except for profit.

We should avoid all dealings with such people.

but yes, it should be a voluntary thing. rules that could enforce this ban also hurt other, perfectly legitimate community interaction.

once again, DO NOT buy their money.

Mantra February 23 2006 8:22 PM EST

Jon has made his own economy here he can do with it as he pleases, Just to create text on the web and have it sale for any RL traded currency is Amazing, To have complete control of that economy is even more profound.

Sir Leon [Soup Ream] February 23 2006 8:53 PM EST

Haven't read previous posts so i apologize if i repeat something:

I believe jon has stated before that money will not be brought into the game other than fighting.

However why dont we just make it so central bank can set USD:CB2 by selling CB2?

i know guild wars sells money themselves on ebay, i understand this isn't guildwars.

If people are willing to bid on money from central bank then jon gets paid, since it is his game it would be nice. (since he doesnt benifit nearly as much as some USD sellers)

I know its touchy but i think that could at least make USD prices raise a little becuase of people being greedy so in return they will keep there prices just a little lower than the banks. Thus, Making USD spenders not spend so much! hopefully

Over all this idea is pretty bad and it is clearly not thought out, but it is intended to widen others eyes in there brilliant thoughts

[Jedi] Danludar February 23 2006 10:27 PM EST

Leon I've always wondered why Jon doesn't do that. I think I've suggested it before not sure but hmm maybe USD is getting that out of hand that he will =).

Lumpy Koala February 23 2006 10:41 PM EST

change month is near :) You will never know what's going to happen

maulaxe February 24 2006 3:22 AM EST

new supporter item: CA$H !

Halcyon February 24 2006 3:47 AM EST

I say simply, whatever keeps the game going. X % will stick around and play, others won't. Let them do what they will I say.

Sir Leon [Soup Ream] February 24 2006 7:16 AM EST

"from the "be careful what you wish for" dept., the only really foolproof way to remove USD influence would be to remove all non-auction transfers.."

i say go for it! just like in camping was taken away, and most if not all campers quit! Maybe this would work for USD sellers to.

Not likely but possible...

miteke [Superheros] February 24 2006 10:50 AM EST

I don't see the problem with USD sales. So what if they are in it for the $$? Why does that bother you all? They get what they want and you get what you want, the CB2$!

The only reason I can see is to keep some characters from buying huge $ of equipment. If that is what you are really trying to limit, then limit it! Perhaps you could say that character is not allowed to use more than 50x their MPR in item value. So a 1M MPR character could have 50M in equipment (notice I picked just about the perfect ratio for my character :).

stabilo [Lonesome fighter] February 24 2006 11:01 AM EST

i see it more like a 2 class community ..

it's like a race with the same chances for everybody, say a porsche car race.
now, that there is s.b. with much more US$, he can buy a formula 1 race car, but normally is not allowed to compete with porsches .. in cb it's like he was allowed to!

AdminG Beee February 24 2006 11:02 AM EST

Put a bad driver in the formula 1 car and the porsche still wins ;)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] February 24 2006 11:08 AM EST

I tend to agree with miteke. So what? It is like the "war on drugs" how many people find it harder to get illicit drugs now that the government has declared war on it? Yah, probably easier. Same will happen here. IF the community wants to interject USD into the mixture, you will have a very difficult time stopping it. Even creating restrictive rules that hinder all transfer will only work until someone figures a work around. It is, as with any economy, all about supply and demand, and in truth it is really about demand. If consumers (in this case CB players) demand CB2 or other items in exchange for real currency, the supply WILL figure out how to get them what they want. It is that simple.

As with the "war on drugs" its not about the supply side, its the demand side you need to stop. How do you stop the demand side? Primarily through peer/community pressure. If you say, hey Im going to buy this BTh with my extra birthday money, getting CB2 from my USD and then buying it, and all your friends say dude, that is lame, if you do that I do not want to be your friend any more, that will be a million times more effective than any rule or law you can enact. If everytime a person posts CB2 for USD for sale, they become community osterisized, then you have an effective means of killing the demand side of the equation. Any other method just makes it more difficult to accomplish the transfer. You only need to spend your FS/WTB forum fee a couple times without results before you give up. If someone posts CB2 for USD sale, and no one responds, you will see a lot less of them. You will of course see them reduce the price to entice you to buy. What if it was $5 USD per 1mil CB2 could you resist? If you could and you can get all your friends to join you, you can end this right now. If you cannot, then no matter how many rules you enact, the supply side will figure out how to deliver to the demand side eventually.

Don't believe me? Ask Adam Smith.

stabilo [Lonesome fighter] February 24 2006 11:25 AM EST

G_Beee: sure, i didn't say that the US$ spenders don't play as good, but the comparison is about equal skilled players, what do you think who will win?

Sefton: i can't, Adam Smith died 17. Juli 1790 .. nontheless your point is probably right, maybe i'll go an make a list of the top 10 that did not spend US$, i'm curious who is the best in my league ;-)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] February 24 2006 11:40 AM EST

And you see stabilo you are already starting the community peer pressure by saying, hey I am making a list of people who did not use USD and still have great characters, these people are worth comparing to me, because I also have not spent USD. If you would like to be on my list, then don't spend USD. GRANTED no one may care about your list, but this is the "right" approach. It attacks the demand side saying I am better than you or OK less controversially it says I cannot compare to you because you used USD I did not. The more people that want to be on your list, the more pressure it applies. This is how you stop USD.

QBsutekh137 February 24 2006 12:08 PM EST

A system could be put in place to completely disallow USD, or at least make it useless. I wouldn't compare that to the War on Drugs... That is an overblown argument, Sefton. That's like saying you should just give up on trying to make rules for anything: "Hey, it's like the War on Drugs...why bother!" This is a closed, monitored system. Absolutes CAN take place here.

If Jonathan REALLY wanted to, USD could be made worthless. As he said himself, he would simply turn off all transfers. Auctions could be controlled/monitored such that there would be no "workaround". If you can think of a workaround, what would it be? All that would need to be done is to say auction BINs had to be a certain percentage of NW (thereby making them useless), and that auctions had to run at least 24 hours. You willing to risk losing a 50 million NW weapon to an auction sniper after giving someone a few hundred USD? Didn't think so. Other than auctions, what else could possibly act as a "workaround"?

From what little I know about World of Warcraft, the items there are "branded" to the wielder. They cannot be transferred (correct/elaborate where I am wrong). So, does WoW have a lot of USD spending in it? I assume money can still be transferred there, so would guess that USD still has a place.

If nothing else, turning off transfers would stop cash sales (can't even use auctions to transfer cash).

For the record, I am all for it. I wouldn't mind pumping my USD that I got from selling Cougars back in (I would still be "USD free" on CB2), but if I can't, fine with me.

The big problem is that the folks who have already spent a lot of USD are kind of screwed on one hand and advantaged on the other... Someone who spent a lot of USD will be hard to catch in terms of wealth, but those wealthy folks will have no sell-out options...

QBBarzooMonkey February 24 2006 12:11 PM EST

But, going with the war on drugs analogy, whether rules are enacted or "peer pressure" actions are applied, the "demanders" will simply go underground. You might see less FS/WTB threads, but CMs & PMs from CB2 sellers to known, established USD buyers would increase.
Find a way to hinder that, and they'll step outside CB into sending e-mails back and forth.
The next step after that is resetting and banning, like with multis, and I'm willing to bet we'd lose at least half, if not more, of the active players at that point.
This issue comes up "hard" every 3 months or so, and then just goes away. CB2 keeps going on throughout, so why is it so "bad for CB2"? Look at Mantra - I don't believe he's spent big USD, and he's become a top contender...

QBJohnnywas February 24 2006 12:16 PM EST

I say leave the USD sellers alone. I've not spent much in the way of real money on the game, some supporter stuff, a SoD in CB1 and if I remember rightly a million in CB1 as well. But that's all. And yet I've managed to be competetive. But then I've the advantage of internet access at work and at home. So I manage to get in a lot of BA time. Other players such as Ranger who has spent a lot of USD on the game also puts in the hours. Far more than most - and he applies good strategy thinking to the game. Seft had the skill of camping to boost his efforts. But again that required putting in some time. USD alone doesn't get you anywhere. G Beee''s point about bad drivers is correct.

Now if you're talking about the possiblity of NUB abuse by players who may know more about the game than most newbs would, to that I would say leave that to Jon and the admins. You are never going to stop USD purchases without stopping in game transfers. And even doing that leaves you with possibilities that are open to abuse. If there are the few who are using the game for selfish reasons then leave them to it. If you value the community and the game then do not deal with them. Take away their market and you will see the numbers of NUB sell outs dwindle.

Ah, we can dream can't we? Now back to my early evening drinking. ;)

stabilo [Lonesome fighter] February 24 2006 12:22 PM EST

ok, i see those points, it would be quite unfair for lots of players.

then maybe add an option when creating a new character, where you may decide if you want to allow transfers from and to that character except for auctions. To be fair with everybody this option should also be available for already created chars, but only the step-out. So if you later decide you really need other transfers (maybe because you wanna spend some US$), then you still have the option to do so.
Switching items between your own chars of type a or b should then of course also be prohibited.
maybe even allow for 1 month from the day this option is available to step-in, so also players that already did spend some US$ can say, ok, you are right, i won't do this again. sure this option can't survive very long, but for me it would be fair enough to allow this for a limited timespan!

.. what do you think?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] February 24 2006 12:24 PM EST

OK Sut, I'll bite. How about this. Jon disallows all transfers, so I build up my NUB, then privately sell, not the character but the account to someone who has yet to start. I simply tell them the send me $500 USD and I will give them the login in for my account. This will not flag as a multi as the "new" person does not have an account, and the "change" in IP on the "old" account would not be flagged. Sure there are other things, did I post, could you tell a difference, did I chat, could you tell a difference, well if I do none of those things, then the answer is no. This is just one quick off the top of my head example. With more thought I could refine the process.

As to the war on drugs analogy, I disagree. I made the analogy to show that now matter how many rules you add, if there is a demand there will be a supply. I think the war on drugs shows that perfectly. I did not use the analogy to show fultility, I used it to show how demand will always generate a supply, if you kill the demand you kill the supply. If you attack the supply side, they will figure out new ways to supply. If you attack the demand side, you end your problem.

So go ahead, attack the supply side and see if your USD problems end, they wont, you just wont notice them as much (which may be just as well because I am still in the miteke camp of SO WHAT)

WeaponX February 24 2006 12:27 PM EST

i think ending all USD sales would be bad. i believe we need a counter to it. in cb if you spend USD you are at an unbelievable advantage to those who can't/don't. the economy in cb has fallen dramatically since camping was removed and the Tattoo artist was brought in. i think a replacement for camping and removal of the TA would do extraordinary things for this game

QBsutekh137 February 24 2006 12:32 PM EST

Yeah, that is a good idea for entire character transfers. How about if I want to buy 1 million CB for my existing character? Tell me a "workaround" for that in lieu of transfers?

Selling logins can always be a workaround, it just isn't very useful to someone wanting to build an existing character. Sure, it let's someone sell out an entire account, but I actually have no problem with that. At least no one can take a single character and build, build, build it (the best they could do would be to buy into the top spot). Not without buying another login and then...well, they couldn't even transfer! I was going to say they would get caught for multi-ing in that case, but this scheme also does away with multis! (except the type that just has multiple people playing one account -- that would still need to be monitored).

You are right about your supply/demand thing -- in the real world. This isn't a real world. This is a computer. You saying it can't be locked down would be like saying I can't write a computer program that adds 5 + 5 and gets 10 EVERY time. The real issue is locking it down and still having it be fun. I don't give a whit about the economy -- that's just me.

One problem with no transfers would be forging. Turning off transfers would kill that too, as far as I can figure. :\

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] February 24 2006 12:55 PM EST

Again Sut, I disagree, and I have fundementally disgreed with this statement the first time it was uttered, "You are right about your supply/demand thing -- in the real world. This isn't a real world. This is a computer."

Why do real world ideologies become invalid because you are playing a game on the computer? Does not the computer and game exist in the real world, does not the methods you use to access the game take advantage of real world economic forces?

Can a 13 year old living with his parents, going to school, with a dial up account and a hand me down computer access CB as easily and with as much speed as me, a working professional? Why not? Because of game forces? No, because of real world economic forces.

Can that same 13 year old spend as much USD on CB as I? Why not? Because the game wont allow him to, no, because real world economic forces wont let him.

The USD that you could or did get from a transaction in CB2 evaporate into electronic vapor as soon as it "left" the game or could I and did I buy groceries with it?

As soon as you talk about USD which exists in the real world, then you are talking about real world history effecting it. If CB existed in the Carter 80's would there be less USD spent on a game? I would bet lots of $$$ on it, if the US experiences massive inflation and there is less dispossable income, less will be spent on CB, how does that example violate your, its a computer rule?

Sure I do not expect a fireball to fling from my fingers, nor do I expect to get more healthy if I stick you in the ribs with a knife, there I will agree there is a difference. And yes, if Jon suddenly says for every 10 CB2$ you have I will give you only 1CB2 $ for it, then poof everyone loses 90% of their cash, and the internal game economy is affected. He does have that kind of control, he cannot however make me earn less USD or make that 13 year old suddenly have a lot more USD to spend. Only the real world can do that, and thusly the real world effects CB2 economics.

stabilo [Lonesome fighter] February 24 2006 1:02 PM EST

so for you it would be ok if s.b. bought the Schlossallee in a Monopoly game for say 100US$ ?

You think it's fine to play poker, and then buy your 4th AS from another player?

It's always ok for the two participats in the deal themself, but it's for sure not fair for the other players!

It's a game, and a game is everything that has nothing to do with real life money (or status, or wealth, or ... ). If it has to do with for example money, then it's not a game anymore, then it's more like gambling.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] February 24 2006 1:18 PM EST

stabilo, not sure where you are going there, I mean for instance one example you chose is poker, and it is gambling.

See I have this luxury stabilo, economic forces are not judges. They are not good and bad, there just are what they are. So no I am not saying it is right or wrong to do or not do those things you mentioned, I can tell you however, s.b. cannot buy that Monopoly property for $100 USD if you just got his taxes auditted by the government and owes them a ton in back taxes. Well he can actually, just a lot less likely to blow $100 USD on a game.......

Which is my whole point, the real world DOES intrude into this corner of cyberspace no matter how much you deny it, or wish it not to be true. It intrudes most evidently in the economic sector in my opinion, which is why I disagree so strongly with Sut (who I know you don't know but is that poweredbymushu joker)

QBsutekh137 February 24 2006 1:33 PM EST

Sefton, I wasn't using a fantasy argument. I was saying that, in a limited, restricted environment, rules can be made and enforced with great success.

Supply and demand... Hm, we all demand money, right? We all want it. A bank has money. Yet, we don't see heists/robberies to such an extent that the world becomes unlivable. A bank is a controlled environment with elaborate safeguards, even in the topsy-turvy real world.

Now for a CB example: Supply and demand -- we all demand to have better BA usage...we all want it. The supply is there, if we could only play 24x7. So, people try bots. Because of the enclosed nature of this computer game, bot-users have repeatedly been caught and stopped. We have botchecks in place. Shouldn't we just say, "Hell, it is like the war on drugs...you can't stop bots, so let them run..."?

If you concede that bots can be controlled, why are you saying USD cannot be?

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] February 24 2006 1:35 PM EST

Not sure exactly which perceived problems are being addressed by who here. USD dominating at the top, holding new players interest and not having them see this as just a way to make a few bucks or the amount of start over multis around.
Anyway to get back to what I see as the heart of the matter.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 24 2006 1:44 PM EST

As for WoW, it had two types of Soulbound (that character only, not even traded between characters you own...)

Bind on Pickup (generally the most powerful types of items). When you picked up this item froma drop, it was yours forever. Got people very angry when you ninja'd a drop like this, especially if you where a class that couldn't use said item, and there were classes there that could!

Bind on Equip. These items could be traded, but when first equipped on a character, were then bound to that character.


But Gold and other rare items (crafting materials and such) that weren't bound, and accounts, were sold for USD. :)

stabilo [Lonesome fighter] February 24 2006 1:54 PM EST

Sefton: "stabilo, not sure where you are going there, I mean for instance one example you chose is poker, and it is gambling. "

No, there is a big difference:
Sure you may play for money, if you want to, do a bet with Ranger who's the best in say 3 months. That's about the same as in poker.

But in Poker you can't buy more and more cards until you got a Royal Flush, that's not possible. (and will most likely get you shot ;-)

In CB you can, and that is unfair.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] February 24 2006 1:57 PM EST

Because, a bot is by its very nature integral to a computer and a computer environment. Pull that bot out of the game and show it to me in the "real world" and have it function "here" and I will give you the bot to USD analogy, otherwise that is the disconnect. I cannot make the bot run independently of the computer THUS a computer can have ultimate control over it. I can have USD run independently of a computer and thusly your computer game cannot have control of it once it leaves the computer environment.

As to your bank analogy, you support my position not refute it. Do bank robberies occur YES (do people exchange CB2 for USD YES)? The more secure you make your bank the less likely for a robbery to be successfull TRUE (the more difficult you make for USD to CB2 transfers the less of them there will be TRUE). Because of the security do bank robberies stop NO? (because of the controls do people stop trying to make USD from CB NO) Since there is a demand, people will find a way to supply it. Since people DEMAND money, no matter the risk or difficultly they still try to get their SUPPLY freely from a bank. (Since people want to exchange USD for CB2 they will find away as long as there is a demand)

Now, if banks only have paper cash to steal and you make all wealth be electronic and paper cash worthless, I bet you wont need much physically security in your bank. (take away the DEMAND and you remove the need for supply side controls) Your controls by your own admission (assuming you believe there are still bank robberies) are NOT 100% effective in stopping a problem, whereas my demand side is :)

Again, your own aurgments hurt you. We have bot controls, is every bot caught immediately and is every bot even caught? You cannot be 100% sure although you can say it will be difficult to achieve.

Are multi's caught immediately? Are they always caught? DrownedBubble and BCMoto were recently fined as multi's one banned eventually, they have been playing CB for more than 3 years each. So you have complete control over the environment and the ability for multi's to exist. You say, "I was saying that, in a limited, restricted environment, rules can be made and enforced with great success" So you call allowing multi to exist for years is successful control?

If there is a bot out there running right now, you don't know about it, no one does or it would not be running. So I cannot apply the same litmus test of control to it, but in the end, even in your own computer based realm you cannot achieve much successful control how on earth do you plan to control my USD?

WeaponX February 24 2006 2:37 PM EST

hey Sutekh...if you don't care about the economy why are you playing this game or any rpg for that matter? economy drives these games when the economy gets corrupted or goes south the game goes dead.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] February 24 2006 2:44 PM EST

MM, just to warn you, Sut and I traveled that path during the NW to PR link argument (BTW if you want to see Kreskin at work, look at my predictions there) and he has reasonings that are very difficult to refute. I'm with you in spirit though :)

QBsutekh137 February 24 2006 2:44 PM EST

Sefton, if you want to banter about the quantum nature of the Universe (that there is always a finite chance of just about ANYTHING happening), be my guest on giving us a monologue.

Of course all of my arguments are not going to achieve 100% perfection. I was enumerating systems that we accept as "good enough" or as "good as can be": bot checks, multi-catching, language abuse, resets...

I am still waiting for you to tell me, for example, how one would sell CB$ for USD$ if there were no transfers. You said your previous example (complete login purchase) was "right off the top of your head", so put some more thought into it and dazzle me as to how you would transfer cash in a no-transfer CB world?

I am asking for a specific example, because I believe we need to agree to disagree on the overall topic. No matter what I say, you will say I am supporting your arguments. So let's hear your arguments directly from you: how would you transfer cash without transfers?

QBsutekh137 February 24 2006 2:47 PM EST

MM, why I plan this game, quite frankly, is none of your damn business.

I was here before you, and, God-willing, will be here after you are gone. I don't need to give you (or anyone) reasons as to why I do what I do or think what I think, and I will never, ever, ask about or assume your motivations in return.

Fair enough?

WeaponX February 24 2006 2:48 PM EST

a whip with a BIN of 1 million dollars from buyer to seller

QBsutekh137 February 24 2006 2:52 PM EST

Get rid of BINs.

(See how easy it is to control a conjured environment?)

WeaponX February 24 2006 2:54 PM EST

minimum bids have to go as well then...

stabilo [Lonesome fighter] February 24 2006 2:57 PM EST

MegamanV: Thanks for letting us know that you didn't read the whole thread. This problem was already solved some lines above (and many others too).

WeaponX February 24 2006 3:00 PM EST

i'm sorry stabilo you got me i didn't read through 50+ posts half of which are 2 paragraphs long. im a bad bad person

QBsutekh137 February 24 2006 3:04 PM EST

Sure, take out those too!

Look, at this point I am simply trying to delineate the difference between what CAN be done and what SHOULD be done. Hell, we could do away with auctions, rentals, and forging entirely. That would represent lockdown. It would also ruin the game.

I don't have the answer, I am mainly just trying to get through to Sefton that in a closed, created environment, EVERYTHING can be controlled -- it is merely a matter of how inflexible the game becomes.

Jonathan put it much better when he simply said, "Be careful what you wish for." *smile* That pretty much sums up the difference between what can be accomplished and what is actually plausible.

I better be careful though...the more I say, the more I support Sefton's arguments, apparently...

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] February 24 2006 3:06 PM EST

OK Sut here goes :)

You and me build two seperate characters, but I play more than you, so I earn more money, get more items, have more stuff, but we are on purpose running identical strats, you just a lesser of mine. So when you have earned enough USD to afford me, I sell my log in to you. Now poof you have an upgraded character. You have spent USD to upgrade your character to be better than it was before you spent the USD. Which I assume is the REAL problem because a person who spends USD to buy CB2, then gives it away in a non profit contest is likely not at issue here.

As for the other I still say, change the demand for USD to CB2 and you will much more easily stop the problem (if one exists) than adding more control from the supply of CB2 to USD. Im not saying supply side is not effective I am saying demand side is more effective, it is you trying to change the fundemnetal laws of economics, not me, so let's see your monologue, Adam and I await with baited breath.

stabilo [Lonesome fighter] February 24 2006 3:12 PM EST

what's the problem with this sefton? sure, characters can be sold to s.b. else, but no character can become better with US$, that's what we want.

QBsutekh137 February 24 2006 3:27 PM EST

stabilo beat me to it...entire login transfers offer such little, inflexible benefit (and require soooo much trust) that such a scenario doesn't worry me. No one can build a single character up and up and up with such a device.

As far as your second comment: I AGREE ENTIRELY! Now, how do we lessen demand? The only way I can think is to make net worth less meaningful, but then we are left with Clickfest Mage Blender (something some say has already happened).

stabilo [Lonesome fighter] February 24 2006 3:28 PM EST

For those that didn't read the above 50 posts, here a short version:

The problem people have with US$ and CB is:

Playing Poker you can't buy more and more cards until you got a Royal Flush, that's not possible (and would most likely get you shot ;-).

In CB you can, and that is unfair.

You still may play for money, for example do a bet with s.b. who reaches the 1mil MPR first: no problem here
You still may sell your whole account to s.b. else (as selling your Royal Flush to s.b. else): no problem here

Already found solutions:

1. prevent all non-auction transfers

2. To still allow instas:
- add a insta-auction, where you are able to specify rate and preferred level after insta and how much you value each of those points

3. To still allow contests:
- add a random-number-signin, where you may place several items, specify how many numbers / player , how many different numbers at all, how much one number costs and a sign-in for participants.
People will still be able to make some kind of funny/interesting/creative contest out of this. in the end it's all about a random-number picked out of a specified range. Maybe don't provide a list of all number-contests, but just give the owner a link he can use in his thread, where everybody interested may click to buy a ticket.

4. To still allow forging:
- add a Forging-Board, where you may specify rate, nw-increase, time-limit and penalty. Every forger may take your item or not. Payment and transfers are completely automatic.

5. To prevent abuse of auction with bogus transactions
- calculate max BIN from Item-Meta-Stats with some +%
- possible solution: don't let players sell stuff for more than they earned themsleves already + some % (maybe 50%)

that's it so far as i can see it, if you have more ideas or see any 'holes' with this, please let me know!


WeaponX February 24 2006 3:29 PM EST

how about making all items grow like Tattoos?

Adminedyit [Superheros] February 24 2006 3:34 PM EST

"how about making all items grow like Tattoos?"
Free upgrades on my MH and TSA I'm all for it. 8^)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] February 24 2006 3:36 PM EST

Again, I will say I do not have a problem with CB2 to USD sales. I never did, and even if the NUB's do it only for that purpose I still do not.

What I am against is more controls. Just like in the other multi threads, I advocate less, not more. And I advocate it this time from a position of strength knowing full well that controling the demand is better than controlling the supply when it comes to economics.

So instead of saying do not do this because we need less controls, I said do not do this, because controls are not the most effective way, in this case, of accomplishing your goal, even though your goal is not mine.

Then Sut jumped in and tried proving that controlling the supply was plenty effective, and I tried to show it is not, and that the demand side is more effective, AGAIN with the sole purpose being to advocate less controls.

So, I will say this definatively, do not worry about CB2 to USD sales. If however you do decide you must, do not try to supply side control it, demand side control it, or you are making the game less fun for all and in effect wasting your time anyway.

QBsutekh137 February 24 2006 3:46 PM EST

I don't know, Sefton...I think you have some sort of hidden agenda. *smile*

Mega, that is a cool idea. Edyit, I think he means grow AND ONLY GROW like tattoos -- no blacksmith upgrades. Though, without transfer or branding limitations, people would still transfer such items around until the "cream" rose to the top (via USD).

I don't really have a problem with USD either. I am just a spiteful, ornery critter who likes to see things radically shaken up. *smile*

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] February 24 2006 4:41 PM EST

I did have a "hidden" agenda, to hide the fact I was advocating less controls by advocating demand side control :)

However, my message was being lost in the supply vs. demand issue, so I could not longer hide my agenda ;)

Yes, you are mean and ornery, but I would not have NEARLY as much fun if I didn't know you were there waiting :)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] February 24 2006 4:51 PM EST

LOL I should read more carefully I do not know how I missed this!

The only way I can think is to make net worth less meaningful, but then we are left with Clickfest Mage Blender (something some say has already happened).

That is deja vu!

But to topic, you can affect the demand side with community and peer pressure. Anything else you do is just more controls.

QBRanger February 24 2006 5:04 PM EST

Yes, if we have items grow like tattoos, then every character without a NUB/NCB is crap.

QBsutekh137 February 24 2006 5:18 PM EST

Sef, I think the discussion also makes clear that it is very unlikely Jonathan would do something like turn of transfers. There is just soooo much he would have to nuke along with it that the game would become somewhat lifeless for most people's taste...

That being said, peer pressure will never do anything to stop USD. I have seen varying levels of USD animosity over my years here, and it didn't change the phenomenon one iota.

Arorrr February 24 2006 5:20 PM EST

As a starter of this post, I got to say: Stop this arguing non-sense.

I'm only making a post to point out this:

If you really care about CB community, restrain buying CB$ from single-char NUB user!

The reason is that:
1. Single-char NUB users sell CB$ = they are not interest in playing the game, only USD.
2. These char are highly Multi, as well.
3. Buying CB$ from these users hurt the community in whole:
a. Economically: large influx of NUB CB$ but without reinvestment. Expire-NUB users are not going to buy or trade within the community.
b. They are unlikely stay after their NUB run out. They do not populate and make the community larger, as a whole.
c. No accountability. They don't care about their character's value. They have no long term accountability.
4. They create an environment that everytime someone posts something about NUB and USD in the forum, the post will be cluttered up with non-sense arguments, which does not help out the community anyway.
5. Jon may deal an heavy-hand approach, which will please none of us.


stabilo [Lonesome fighter] February 24 2006 6:13 PM EST

This is a small statistic made with the data from Stats/Standings/Networth and Stats/Standings/MPR.. Number x means number of chars with a ratio between x and x-5

181 Names where in the top 4 NW stats AND the top 4 MPR stats.
The overall average of Networth / MPR is 54.27
19 Players have a ratio of over 80.
A ratio between 20 and 80 seems to be normal.

have fun analyzing this ;-)

stabilo [Lonesome fighter] February 24 2006 6:47 PM EST

1The Apocalypse Book (2400431)222.17
2Imp (2369719)
3Krang (2300511)392.29
4Oduten (2283700)499.12
5Mikel III (2228077)134.42
6Cosmos (2219795)28.01
7Mishras Factory (2149164)111.29
8Havoc (1977256)180.42
9Bartlett (1838643)71.28
10Failure (1590113)68.31
11Chicken Farm (1551307)81.37
12NWO (1546123)40.23
13Tezmac (1492874)45.22
14Lord Gothmog (1484600)48.74
15The Lega (1458553)88.86
16Lorenzo (1439797)42.07
17The Angel of Death (1356073)30.7
18DarkSeraphim (1339870)30.82
19Jochumia (1314870)103.76
20{=} Viperboy (1304411)54
21Xanas (1303977)37.35
22heat (1291887)33.14
23Dogs Of War (1289862)95.57
24The Slayers (1277483)41.06

With this i would say: Cosmos is the current #1 in CB. Congrats Mantra!

Sacredpeanut February 24 2006 8:21 PM EST

Not really a useful statistic for determining the "best" player in CB2 because:

1) What does NW/MPR tell you anyway? (I could create a tattooless mage with no equipment and presto I have a ratio of 0).

2) Mages tend to have low NW/MPR whereas tanks have high NW/MPR because NW leverages better on tanks (a huge NW mage won't be that much better than a low NW mage whereas a huge NW tank will be alot better than a low NW tank).

What your graph is really telling us is who the biggest USD spenders are.

The graph is pretty though :)

Xiaz on Hiatus February 24 2006 8:22 PM EST

So here's a solution, players that are obviously only playing CB to cash in for USD should be banned. They serve no use to the CB community, besides those that feed them the USD. Harsh, but hey, so is life :)

Bolfen February 24 2006 8:49 PM EST

Some people have always been against USD for CB$. That seems silly to me because probably a lot of players like that aspect of CB, (a way for casual fans to earn pocket change).

The problem isn't the USD sellers. It's that they are using *mutlis* to exploit the game.

Solution? Prove the seller is a multi. Ban him.

TrueDevil [AAA] February 24 2006 8:54 PM EST

Instead of arguing about CB and USD, I think the main problem is the NUB here, why not make NUB the same as NCB , remove the money bonus and only give them experience bonus. I mean, sure, the first four months they can't catch up to Number 1 character, but the first 4 months are supposed to be learning and planning period. If you can just save 100 k per day, in 4 month, that's roughly 12 mil CB 2. Good enough to start NCB and catch up to ranger. (or maybe something like NUB gets 500 k money bonus every month)

From what I've seen, NUB can buy all their BA everyday, and still have some money left to save up which they can sold in the end of their NUB period. That's just wrong.

Another solution would be, longer NUB time but much lower reward.

QBRanger February 24 2006 8:57 PM EST


Please do not start this "best player in CB" stuff.

It is quite easy to start a NUB character, play as much as I do, and pass the top MPR with a single FB mage. It is quite easy to win most of your battles due to having such a high MPR.

Very cheap to run and quite effective.

There is no "best player in CB". We all play for different reasons.

However, the older characters have had quite a disadvantage in that those that started in the beginning never had the chance to "fight up", never had the chance to use the ROE, and did have the disadvantage of having to adapt to numerous changemonths.

Cosmos has the number 1 MPR in the game due to a mechanism Jon put in place to let "new players" have a chance at the top. However, IMO, this mechanism is ripe for cheating and abuse. That is the point of this thread. However, anyone with 1/2 a brain can easily abuse the system and that is the bigger problem.

YOU February 24 2006 9:06 PM EST

I was going to say something but it's going to be an insult. Therefore i stop here.
Thanks for putting me on that list anyway. I made it at the bottom position. LOL

Bolfen February 24 2006 9:11 PM EST

I just noticed that NUBs with 1/3 the number of battles won have the same MPR as me. Bah...I hate the NUB!

QBBarzooMonkey February 25 2006 12:01 AM EST

I'm just happy to see the Dogs on a top 25 "anything" list! Woot! :)

colonel [penny pincher] February 25 2006 10:36 AM EST

If this were a poll (which it is not), I would vote to remove the NUB and retain the NCB. I've felt this way for some time though. I do enjoy the discussion, thanks for Arorrr it to the community's attention. An alternative would be to limit the NUB's cash bonus, but why mix it in (I prefer simplicity).

When viewed from another angle, one may ask why not quit and leave the community for several months and return with a new account and the NUB? In four months your char could catch up to where you'd be anyhow (that's how I perceive the design at least) and likely you'd have much more cash.

Unappreciated Misnomer February 25 2006 12:24 PM EST

now everyone seems to have a problem with ppl benefiting from this bonus,cant we all agree to drop the bonus or make it stop after a certain pr score level that is lower

QBsutekh137 February 25 2006 1:20 PM EST

Colonel, not sure if leaving for a while and then returning is "legal" to get the NUB. same person means same person. Just being dormant a while does not mean you get to start over. Several players have come in after only playing back in January 2005, asked if they could start a new account, and have been told "no" (as far as I know).

Could an admin clarify the policy on how long is long enough? If I am off for 6 months, move (new IP address), but later admit that I am, in fact, Sutekh, will I get banned/reset?

AdminG Beee February 25 2006 1:26 PM EST

An account is like a puppy - it's for life.

Maelstrom February 25 2006 1:57 PM EST

G Beee, that's not a very good metaphor: you can give away a puppy, but you're not allowed to give away your CB account ;)

[T]Vestax February 25 2006 2:08 PM EST

If you give away your puppy then God will smite thee. Everyone knows that.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001iZf">What is with 1 NUB char account and USD seller?</a>