Ouch. Cosmos buys a minion... (in General)


Stephen February 28 2006 12:53 AM EST

...And adds 100K MPR in the blink of an eye!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 28 2006 1:09 AM EST

setting up for a possible switch to RoS?
FB backlash might be painful...
CoC? Tank? If that wall had an MgS I'd say he was sticking with FB....but who knows.

QBRanger February 28 2006 1:13 AM EST

And the NUB/NCB goes way up. The next FB mage comes along passing Cosmos, then buying a new minion, and the NUB goes up again.

Pretty soon we will have a 2 million MPR character.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 28 2006 1:20 AM EST

changemonth adjustments anyone?

[T]Vestax February 28 2006 1:46 AM EST

100k MPR in trade for what? 15 mil? I could have thought of much better things to do, like get a Corn and not dilute my damage. A desperate move to have a single stat higher then Ranger. He still lacks the NW, the tattoo, and the strategy he needs to be number one.

Mantra February 28 2006 2:31 AM EST

Ranger has me anyway... At this point, the move is basic.. I need a place to put the gear I'm going to be getting. My fourth minion is the real threat :)
Until then nothing is in stone.

Everyone doubted I'd even stay around, well this move is just proof that I will.

sssimmo February 28 2006 2:33 AM EST

Nah, sell out Mantra. Make the big bucks! :P

TrueDevil [AAA] February 28 2006 2:41 AM EST

He already had 35 % dd increase from equipment. A new minion is most likely 100 % better than just a Corn, at least when I tried using Corn using various strat, I never find Corn to be useful, it's just like an accessory like MCM.

Another point would be, If ranger didn't use Wall + Mgs + Double AMF strat, he will most likely lost to Cosmos. Cosmos only have ToE to reduce ranger's damage and probably DM but it's not very useful. Don't start saying that Cosmos lack strat, because there are too many magic damage reduction but not enough melee damage reduction. Basically, as long as you're using mage strat, you can never be number 1.

sssimmo February 28 2006 2:54 AM EST

I never find Corn to be useful, it's just like an accessory like MCM.

A +10 corn give +20% to enchantments. I would have that any day.
Useful??? VERY!

UltimaSpock [Forge Frog Services] February 28 2006 3:20 AM EST

If i may give an advice to mantra, I would remove all trained enchantments on the black hole. with such a high protection, the penalty must be hefty. I would go for a pure wall, and I would keep EC for the fourth minion...

Mantra February 28 2006 3:25 AM EST

Yeah the trained minion was an inside Joke. It proved a good laugh :)

QBRanger February 28 2006 5:38 AM EST

Hey,

Just look at chappy.

A mage character can get to/near the top.

QBsutekh137 February 28 2006 10:09 AM EST

Unless you are planning to spend USD, it is going to be several months (I would guess at least 4) to have cash to buy that fourth minion (much less gear and BA). I have not bought any BA or gear, and my 20 million cash hoard has taken me 5-6 months to gain.

I am glad you are staying around, but I hope you realize how long it is going to take to buy gear and a fourth minion... More power to you!

AdminG Beee February 28 2006 10:35 AM EST

Of course if you bring "power forging" (which we all know Sut hates to do) into the equation it's possible to make that amount of cash much faster than 5-6 months. Agreed it's 1 step back in the short term, but it's also 2 forward at the end of the day..?
Meanwhile current NCB/NUB accounts would only be getting the benefit of a static MPR from the no.1 positioned player which would make the leap forward that comes from another minion that little bit more significant when the time comes.

chappy [Soup Ream] February 28 2006 10:35 AM EST

Mantra is right about the wall not being the huge move, the 4th is the kicker ... Just sit around and watch ... only time will tell

YOU February 28 2006 1:00 PM EST

it's not that hard for Mantra to beat Ranger. Just train an okie amount of FB on 2nd minion enough to kill his 2nd and 3rd minion at first shot then voila...You will get another Thread.

QBsutekh137 February 28 2006 1:02 PM EST

G_Beee, I think it was determined some time ago that forging for cash in order to buy another minion is not a good use of BA. In other words, your team will get MUCH larger fighting during that time. Why would you spend all that time forging, then blow it all for a mere 100K PR gain? In 5 months, a PR gain of 500K is probably easily attainable, even without purchasing BA...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 28 2006 5:49 PM EST

Hmm... My NCB bonus is still 124%. I think it was based on the top MPR at the time I created my character, so Cosmos streaching ahead of TAB doesn't effect me. (And sorta throws my bonus percent out of wack. If it's figured to let me catch TAB, then I'll never catch someone like Cosmos with it... Maybe it needs to be dynamic?)

Until a couple of days time. When I start my new NCB character and get a bonus figure based on Cosmos's new improved MPR!

:D

Keep going Mantra (or any other dedicated NUB player that manages to surpass him!), every 4 months buy another minion, just to keep giving me a bigger bonus!

Time to activate "Tattoo Power Leveling Stance Technique". >;)

Stephen February 28 2006 6:03 PM EST

Indeed, you would be a little upset if you created a NUB/NCB character yesterday morning, and it was at 93% of what it could have been that evening.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 28 2006 6:30 PM EST

Forging does not make much more money than fighting at your PR.

[T]Vestax February 28 2006 8:18 PM EST

If the math is correct then nobody except a player who really spent as much BA as Cosmos, or even more than he did, could catch up to him. With or without buying minions.

Teams with more minions gain more overall xp. If the math was calculated correctly then the amount of xp earned by buying a large minion would be the same amount of xp lost by not having that minion from the beginning. So Cosmos should to be where he would be if he started with a three minion team from the beginning. (Assuming the three minion team would be just as successful strat-wise.)

If the above were true, and I believe it is, then the concept of exponentially growing new user bonuses is a foolish notion. Either Cosmos is exactly where he's suppose to be or Jon's calculations were wrong to begin with. The next NUB won't get an easy ride, they still need to be better then Mantra and match/beat his daily battles as challenger.

So yeah, stop aggravating me with your whining.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 28 2006 8:19 PM EST

Multi minion teams gain no more XP than single minion teams.

[T]Vestax February 28 2006 8:25 PM EST

Novice, any game maker with half a brain would have calculated the bonus to be based on the MPR of the leading character _after_ assuming he could instantly buy all his minions. So, Cosmos buying a minion should have absolutely zero effect. Since I like to believe that Jon has a full brain, not just half, then I assume this is the case.

Ox [StephenMelinda Gates Fund] February 28 2006 8:25 PM EST

Well I know for sure their MPR growth is slightly larger since their exp is spread among lower skill levels, which cost less exp per MPR point, whereas a single minion's skill will quickly climb to higher exp costs per point... I don't know how big a factor that plays but I am sure a little one..

QBRanger February 28 2006 8:26 PM EST

Vestax--Pwned!!

So your saying that Jon's calculations were off to begin with-Interesting.

[T]Vestax February 28 2006 8:29 PM EST

Don't act like a child Ranger.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 28 2006 8:39 PM EST

I really don't think Jon is all that omnicient Vest, you're saying he forsaw a particular team (one with less than 4 minions) getting to the top of the MPR chart, and calculated the NUB/NCB so that when they hired the additonal minions they still only had the 15% (the claim % of fights Mantra had over Ranger) extra MPR? If I'm parsing this wrong forgive me, maybe you're saying that the new NUBs are going to get a bonus based on his possible MPR if/when he hires his new minions?

None of these answer the question about MPR inflation due to minion purchases effecting the bonus on the NCB/NUB, which is think should be plain.
The top MPR char's MPR is the mitigating factor, period. So if it goes up, so does the bonus.

QBRanger February 28 2006 8:47 PM EST

Lets take your post Vestax and dissect it:

"If the math is correct then nobody except a player who really spent as much BA as Cosmos, or even more than he did, could catch up to him. With or without buying minions. "

Well minions give a lot of MPR, esp at the level Cosmos is. With his next minion another 100k MPR will be gotten. I have fought nearly the same BA as Cosmos and his MPR just beat mine. Part of that was the unlearning I had to do to keep up with the new characters at the top. But that was my doing. However, Cosmos did not fight more battles than me to justify 100k MPR more.

"Teams with more minions gain more overall xp. If the math was calculated correctly then the amount of xp earned by buying a large minion would be the same amount of xp lost by not having that minion from the beginning. So Cosmos should to be where he would be if he started with a three minion team from the beginning. (Assuming the three minion team would be just as successful strat-wise.) "

This was addressed numerous times in the past where a single minion team gets the same xp as multi-minion teams.

"If the above were true, and I believe it is, then the concept of exponentially growing new user bonuses is a foolish notion. Either Cosmos is exactly where he's suppose to be or Jon's calculations were wrong to begin with. The next NUB won't get an easy ride, they still need to be better then Mantra and match/beat his daily battles as challenger. "

The concept of exponential growth is quite real given the events of the past week. The NUB is based on the highest MPR, which is Cosmos who gained 100k MPR in the blink of an eye. Next FB mage holds off buying minions, fights as much as Cosmos, passes his MPR and then buys 3 minions and goes 400k MPR above everyone else.

"So yeah, stop aggravating me with your whining."

Guilty as charged, but I and the others are just stating what will/can happen. I as well as others predicted this happening when the NUB came out. It just took someone like Cosmos who held off buying minions (correctly so) until his NUB was over.

P.S. I do not know if Mantra is male or female. The use of he is a generic 'he'

[T]Vestax February 28 2006 8:49 PM EST

"maybe you're saying that the new NUBs are going to get a bonus based on his possible MPR if/when he hires his new minions?"

Yes, that's what I mean. And if you think about it, it would certainly answer the question you pose. It would mean that the top MPR char's MPR is _not_ the mitigating factor, period. His potential MPR would be instead. If this is not the case then it should be. If multiple minion teams do not gain more xp to match the xp gained through buying minions then they should. It is the simplest and most straight forward answer to all of the difficulties posed in this discussion. Then it is just a matter of keeping the NUB/NCB bonus in proper alignment.

[T]Vestax February 28 2006 8:52 PM EST

Please spare me the line-by-line argumentation.

QBRanger February 28 2006 8:58 PM EST

"maybe you're saying that the new NUBs are going to get a bonus based on his possible MPR if/when he hires his new minions?"

If I understand that correctly, you mean that the NUB should be based on Mantra if he had 4 minions and about a 1.55 million MPR? Then MPR inflation will be far more advanced.

If Jon's theory is to let someone have a chance at the top if they fight a bit more than the top MPR, it has succeeded. However the wildcard is the fact you can gain over 100k MPR by spending cb2. That, advances the NUB, causing a vicious cycle.

QBRanger February 28 2006 9:06 PM EST

Perhaps the solution to this problem would be to have new minions cost nothing to add and give no xp when hired.

stabilo February 28 2006 9:09 PM EST

why don't just reset every account every 4 month ;-)

[T]Vestax February 28 2006 9:16 PM EST

Yeah, the NUB should indeed be based on Mantra's MPR plus one more minion. If that's too much MPR then, yes, the bonus needs adjustment. As far as I know that's not an opinion, its just a fact.

As for changing the the way minions are hired completely, that would rightfully justify a reset of the whole game, not just four month old accounts.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 1 2006 3:18 AM EST

"Indeed, you would be a little upset if you created a NUB/NCB character yesterday morning, and it was at 93% of what it could have been that evening."

Yeah. My main point. (I've not been thinking well the past couple of days...)

I still think the Bonus is created upon a four month extrapolation of current top MPR based on what the game thinks that charcater would receive in an additonal four months (If I'm not getting things totally wrong here, I hope this calculation takes NUB into account. If it looked at (for example) Rangers past monthly growth, and worked out where he should be in four months time to create the bonus, how would that work with Mantra (or another NUB) being top? Does the calculation rule out his bonus percent when looking back at his gain? If so, then it's stored his bonus percent somehwere? If not, it could be prediciting too much of a growth over the next four months and give out too big a bonus.)

But it sucks for new users (we could all agree it's just tough for NCB folks). New player 'A' signs up and get's a bonus based on Rangers MPR (which if he works hard enough (equal to ranger) let's him get to 95% of Ranger). An hour later, when Mantra has bought his new Minion, gained the top spot with 100K more MPR, New Player 'B' signs up and get a arger bonus. 'A' now has a much harder time of getting to the 95% top MPR level his bonus was designed for.

Devaluating what the NUB is actually there for.

Unless I have got it all backward, which I probably have! ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 1 2006 5:17 AM EST

"If multiple minion teams do not gain more xp to match the xp gained through buying minions then they should. It is the simplest and most straight forward answer to all of the difficulties posed in this discussion."

In CB1 Multi-minion teams gained slightly more XP per minion than lesser minion teams, with overall single minions teams earning the least and 4 minion teams earning the most.

This was changed at the start of CB with all teams earning the same amount of xp regardless of minion count.

QBsutekh137 March 1 2006 10:51 AM EST

Well, look at it from this angle...

Jonathan has said that the NUB/NCB, with good fighting, should get someone within 95% of the top character's MPR. So, it must account for what that top character would likely do during the duration of the bonus period. However, I am not sure it can account for buying minions. If Mantra had wanted to spend $500 USD, he could have stayed single minion till the end, and then bought three minions at probably around 125K MPR a piece (rough estimate). That would be a jump of 375K MPR. I don't know what sort of algorithm Jonathan could be using to estimate that type of growth.

But making the bonuses dynamic has problems too. What if a top character leaps in MPR (by buying minions), and person one has 1 month left on the NCB while person two has 3 months left on the NCB? Rewards can't get jacked up, because that leaves the one-month person at a disadvantage (less time to take advantage of the increased rewards). It is my belief that Jonathan has to make a reward schedule from the very start based on a "best guess" of where the top player will be in four months.

UltimaSpock [Forge Frog Services] March 1 2006 11:09 AM EST

What you are saying QBpoweredbymushu is simply that the NUB bonus must be computed from the current top MPR multiplied by 10/13:
if i have well understood, each minion except the first one brings 1/10 of the MPR the player has.
so if a player remains with a single minion team until the end of the nub bonus, and then buy 3 minions, he will get x+3x/10 with x the MPR he has from its single minion.

Finally the NUB bonus must be multiplied by 10/13, and Qbranger will be very happy!

Unfortunely this will oblige any new users to keep a single minion until the end of their NUB bonus...

QBRanger March 1 2006 11:21 AM EST

As I understood it the NUB/NCB is based on the top MPR at the time of account (NUB), character (NCB) creation. I also understand that it is based on the potential growth of that top MPR person at the time so that in 4 months, the NUB/NCB will be 95% of the top MPR at that time (4 months into the future).

As I also understand it, it does not take into account the buying of characters during or after the NUB/NCB was calculated. That is a person making a NCB the day before Cosmos bought his 3rd minion gets a less NCB then someone making it the day after. Thems the breaks.

stabilo March 1 2006 12:09 PM EST

so does it take the bonus into account or not? i'm just asking because we now have a 1.3mil mpr char in 4 month .. so in another 4 month this would be 2.6mil mpr .. (of course only if the bonus would still apply..) so how is this handled? does this calculation *know* that this char used a bonus to get up there?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 1 2006 12:10 PM EST

I hope that the "potential growth of that top MPR person at the time " takes NUB top people into account! ;)
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001iyP">Ouch. Cosmos buys a minion...</a>