Bye bye VA/Bth/Mh ? (in General)


Roenall March 25 2006 11:48 PM EST

Roenall rent >Dont Touch Me< with A Blade of Temptation [46023]
1 absorbs damage [27120]
Roenall draws strength from his weapon! [-1643]
>Dont Touch Me<'s Guardian Angel smote Roenall (9320)
Roenall sliced into >Dont Touch Me< with A Blade of Temptation [61569]
1 absorbs damage [27120]
Roenall draws strength from his weapon! [1465]
>Dont Touch Me<'s Guardian Angel smote Roenall (16684)

General info
14.1M BtH
75K VA

Not to mention that is 13K in PL is more that enough to put any axbow/exbow at the garbage.

Xiaz on Hiatus March 26 2006 12:55 AM EST

A Shovel [1x1] (+0).

Latest weapon, designed so tanks can begin digging their own graves during battle. :)

[T]Vestax March 26 2006 1:01 AM EST

Oh god forbid the BoNE might actually become the best weapon in the game.

As for axbow and exbow, that's a tank versus tank thing. It has nothing to do with tanks versus mages.

PL is good for everyone, mages and tanks alike. So stop being so melodramatic.

Roenall March 26 2006 1:05 AM EST

DO you see anything that is relate to mage in my post.

Nightmare [NewNightmares] March 26 2006 3:53 AM EST

I don't think you saw the VA issue correctly, Ves ;)


46023-27120=18903; 18903*.5=9451.
61569-27120=34449; 34449*.5=17224.

That's about what he should have leeched each hit, using a 30% effect from his VA as a solid lowball figure.

And it seems to pan out. Against I Win with no VA except from my BTh...

Joshua scratched Hardy little fellow [31099]
Enchantia absorbs damage [13862]
Joshua draws strength from his weapon! [675]
Joshua glanced off of Hardy little fellow [24059]
Enchantia absorbs damage [13862]
Joshua draws strength from his weapon! [-733]

Should have leeched 3447 and 2039, respectively, from the hits above. Certainly not negative leech.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2006 5:46 AM EST

Wasn't the negative VA effects from DM stopped? Maybe it will be for PL?

AdminShade March 26 2006 6:57 AM EST

Negative VA drain has never been stopped, if your VA drops below base level, you drain negative damage.

i.e. do damage to yourself

AdminShade March 26 2006 6:59 AM EST

but ehm: VA effect of weapons isn't affected by DM, and thus would always drain 20%, up to the opponents HP.

Adminedyit March 26 2006 7:59 AM EST

so why the negative numbers then, a bug maybe?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2006 7:59 AM EST

True Shade, but when DM was first introduced, if it dropped your VA to (or past) the minimum your get from training a base, it gave your negative life leech. Jon changed that so it 'fizzled' like other enchantments.

AdminShade March 26 2006 8:02 AM EST

Then perhaps the Phantom Link gives a bug when dealing with VA ?

AdminShade March 26 2006 8:04 AM EST

from changelog:

Damage absorbed by a linked minion will not count towards an attacker's VA/MH/BTh.

So that might be the reason of the negative leach.

QBRanger March 26 2006 8:26 AM EST

Same thing is happening to me:

War glanced off of kalo with Worst of Times [15501]
tubby absorbs damage [15501]
War glanced off of kalo with Worst of Times [18574]
tubby absorbs damage [18574]
Conquest beat kalo with The Sword of Ashes [534065]
tubby absorbs damage [265840]
Conquest draws strength from his weapon! [1193]
kalo's Guardian Angel smote Conquest (63440)
Conquest pulverized kalo with The Sword of Ashes [494506]
tubby absorbs damage [265840]
Conquest draws strength from his weapon! [-21364]
kalo's Guardian Angel smote Conquest (63506)
Conquest pulverized kalo with The Sword of Ashes [642805]
Conquest draws strength from his weapon! [-86942]
kalo's Guardian Angel smote Conquest (49277)
Conquest pulverized kalo with The Sword of Ashes [492934]
Conquest cries "Go Ranger, Go Ranger, Go! Go!"

Exceptionally powerful spell for the xp. Prevents the leech for a MH/VA and does not change the GA done.

Yet another mage buff and tank nerf--Mage Blender.

And YES, I know PL will effect spells but tanks live on the leech of their MH and VA to survive vs those massive FB that take NO cb2 to do damage with.

QBRanger March 26 2006 8:32 AM EST

And another example vs Cosmos:

War scratched MegaCosm with Worst of Times [3900]
Nebula absorbs damage [3900]
War glanced off of MegaCosm with Worst of Times [3500]
Nebula absorbs damage [3500]
Conquest beat MegaCosm with The Sword of Ashes [328145]
Nebula absorbs damage [100000]
Conquest draws strength from his weapon! [77434]
MegaCosm's Guardian Angel smote Conquest (77828)
Conquest crushed MegaCosm with The Sword of Ashes [415070]
Nebula absorbs damage [100000]
Conquest draws strength from his weapon! [129599]
MegaCosm's Guardian Angel smote Conquest (84988)
Conquest crushed MegaCosm with The Sword of Ashes [422555]
Conquest draws strength from his weapon! [-49770]
MegaCosm's Guardian Angel smote Conquest (6981)
Conquest crushed MegaCosm with The Sword of Ashes [301368]
Conquest cries "Go Ranger, Go Ranger, Go! Go!"

And Vestax-If I were using a Bone I would still get a negative to my leech.

And about the axbow or exbow, yes it is a tank vs tank thing but it is a HUGE tank vs tank thing. Basically it is a great equalizer that has just been removed from the game by a 30k spell.

AdminJonathan March 26 2006 8:35 AM EST

"does not change the GA done"

wrong

(fixed negative VA drain)

QBRanger March 26 2006 8:42 AM EST

Jon, thanks for fixing the leech.

It is still a new spell and a lot of us are learning about it.

Roenall March 26 2006 11:22 AM EST

Assuming a PL large enough to absorb all my dmg will negate all my leech ability.Many are arguing that a Tank vs mage thing, to me it something else.

A AS/GA/PL with a ROS is now able to negate VA ability then it
offense source HP*2 = MAX DMG that can be deal before killing itself.

[T]Vestax March 26 2006 11:35 AM EST

Sorry for not noticing the negative digits.

As for axbow and exbow being the great equalizer, that would be debatable. I think the only teams that could effectively use them in the first place was ToA tanks. Yet, non-ToA tanks equipped them to combat the massive DX and ST of the ToA, a pointless effort when the opponent is equally equipped. The big issue was the ToA tank had additional path and DX and the non-ToA tank didn't.

As for GA. When the damage gets redirected, so does the GA. The GA backlash made by the PL minion is based on the total damage taken in that attack. Mixing a large PL with GA is therefore a very bad idea since you could easily let the total damage made to the PL minion exceed the value of your GA when against a FB or CoC mage. Letting your GA get exceeded in this way means you lose damage done by your team to the opponents most deadly minions.

Roenall March 26 2006 11:50 AM EST

Well then PL will negate GA/VA in the same fashion. I guess that fair, but i think a cap of 65% could be a good thing.So some dmg would be deal at the original target and let VA/GA have some kind of effect.

Maybe the stats draining ability could be base on the % of dmg deal at the original target.So axbow will stil have a partial effect.

QBRanger March 26 2006 12:00 PM EST

Vestax,

Since you do not play a tank, it is remiss of you to talk about the axbow and exbow problem with PL.

I can however.

When Jayuu had Imp, I had to use an axbow to equalize the battle. Especially since his TOA tank was a converted single mage and had a massive Dex advantage over me. His TOA tank had 1.6 million dex and my TOA tank had about 900k dex with another 350k added from Haste. He could have used an axbow but in reality had to use an ELB since his 3 hired minions were much weaker than his main tank and he was very vulnerable to FB. If he would use an axbow he would lose to large FB mages unlike TAB who has a very high AMF and would be able to live to melee enough to beat those FB mages.

For those that remember the TAB/Imp battles, things were very close. In fact we had almost identical DB's and close MH's with close AC on our "walls".

But now, with the PL/axbow linkage (if you want to call it that), there would be no way I could fairly battle Imp. He would learn a very small PL on his Wall (about 20k at most) to completely neutralize my 67 million NW axbow. Not have a chance to make it not work, 100% neutralize it. Something in that statement just is not right.

It is not fair to all those playing now to have a skill, trained in low levels, 100% be able to take out 2 rare items. Even the MgS, only decreased damage from DD spells and has a drawback, in that it prevents all DD spells and enchantments. TSA also has a drawback in that the MR from it decays over time and cannot be used on a minion with a tattoo.

Show me another skill or spell that trained to such a low level COMPLETELY takes away the special powers of not 1 but 2 rares. And these are rares needed to equalize things especially with NUB/NCB single minion mages coming up the ladder some of which are being converted to single tanks--eventually 4 minion tank teams.

[T]Vestax March 26 2006 12:03 PM EST

Well, it seems that most of my opponents are Single FB mages and it was hard to notice a small, but very important fact. I think this is again another bug. This is what is going on:

When against an opponent that does damage to just one minion the PL takes the damage away from the targeted minion and so the GA of the targeted minion is decreased. The targeted minion does do GA damage if there is anything left over, but only because he was targeted. The PL minion does nothing, no GA damage at all.

When against FB or CoC everyone in your group is targeted. This means the trigger that says this minion is allowed to take the damage they receive and use it for GA is set for all minions. When the PL minion goes to do his GA it seems the damage he has absorbed from PL is included in the calculation.

I think this only because I observe that my PL's GA damage is higher then the other minions of my team most of the time when against FB or CoC. I notice that I get no GA from the PL minion when hit with a single target attack. There is an alternate explanation, which is that GA ignores PL completely and the higher damage on the PL minion during FB and CoC attacks is a fluke.

[T]Vestax March 26 2006 12:45 PM EST

First, GA & PL:

Small character testing shows there is no bug nor does GA ignore PL. It is clear now that the PL minion is only doing more damage with GA against FB and CoC mages because he is the only one not getting his damage reduced. The final conclusion is this. *PL makes your GA useless* All absorbed damage goes into a void and your Guardian Angle can't feed off of any of it.

Now for the axbow/exbow & PL discussion:

I will grant you that I have never tried to make it as a Tank team. Yet, this is what I think. The epic battle between you and jayuu isn't a very good example and I'll explain why. You say that jayuu could have easily beaten you if he went axbow but couldn't because he had no protection against FB mages without a ELB. You on the other hand could afford to use the great equalizer to counter jayuu because you had no fear of FB mages due to your huge AMF.

Now think about that. Why was jayuu in such a position in the first place. 1) he had no huge AMF but Haste instead. 2) You didn't have the DM to cancel his Haste. 3) He invested heavily into DX while you focused on HP. Everything about his team to this point screams "kill the tanks, kill the tanks, kill the tanks". While your team was middle of the road with more HP AMF ToA and axbow. It is no wonder that Jayuu only needed one more "kill the tank" item to beat you, a tank based team.

I still don't even know why we are talking about this since its still a ToA Tank versus a ToA Tank battle, has nothing to do with what I'm talking about, and in no way is the epic battles of TAB versus IMP representative of what goes on in the rest of CB.

As for knowing any other spell or skill that completely negates 2 rare items. No I can't think of one. Yet, I can think of a lot of cheap tactics to counter heavy investments. A VB for example is an easy way of making the 10 million NW you spent on AC no better then the AC you got in the first 1 million NW. A base decay is a cheap way to kill a wall without AMF behind it. My low DX tank was always immune to axbow in the first place with an even cheaper investment then PL. I know these don't measure up to what you are talking about, but in light of the GA results I'm sure you can appreciate that this skill does have at least one weakness.

QBRanger March 26 2006 1:16 PM EST

Imp did not have Haste, I did. He went heavy vs tanks but also with his large elb did well vs mages. The axbow I used was an option for me, now taken away.

The axbow is another option in the game like choosing a VB vs a MH. The VB does not neutralize 10 million cb2 in armor but lowers its effect. Also, the VB is harder and harder to raise vs a MH or ELS.

PL 100 percent neutralizes all Ax/Exbows. Yes, PL has drawbacks but for 20k invested you become immune to 2 rares. This is not only a TOA thing. Quite a few non TOA characters use these xbows also.

The same analogy was here when the CoBF was present. It neutralized FB and was discarded from the game. Perhaps it should make a comeback so the mages of the world can again experience what it is to 100 percent lose a part of your strategy.

[T]Vestax March 26 2006 1:32 PM EST

But if you bring back the CoBF then half my fight list would change strats. :)

(I forgot to note that the primary reason why people start mage and turn tank is because 1) people tell them to all the time and 2) mages are easier to handle when you first start out. There is a benefit to holding out to turn Tank due to ammo costs, but that is the only benefit I see. I know you can run a tank team more successfully then a mage at lower levels through selective fighting. The reason is that you can actually calculate your chances of victory before you fight.)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 26 2006 2:36 PM EST

You can do the same selective fighting with a Tank. Johnny's done it very well with his Solo UC NCB (his invisible PR talk again! :P ) where I've been too lazy to do anything of the sort! ;)

[T]Vestax March 26 2006 3:02 PM EST

I was talking about selective fighting with a tank in the first place GL.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 27 2006 1:22 AM EST

>_< Opps! Sorry...

But you can selective fight with a mage. You just have to face people with EC and no AMF! ;)

QBJohnnywas March 27 2006 3:38 AM EST

I've done selective fighting with a mage team as well...Jack Crow 1 was a FB/DM mage eater....

Most strats have a weakness and most of the time that weakness is heavy investment in a spell that only affects certain strats - EC and AMF are obvious examples but DM is useless if your foe has no defensive enchantments.

;)

chelon March 27 2006 3:50 AM EST

the most i want to know is if jon gonna consider a change for the ax/ex problem or if he decided not to so i can get on and change my strat.

Karmic Mishap [Soup Ream] March 27 2006 12:31 PM EST

Perhaps PL, in deference to the fact that the specialty xbows whose effect it can decrease have rather low damage output, should only affect said xbows' stat drain by a small percentage.
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