I have a major issue now... I keep to my self and don't bother anybody... I made a small very courteous post on a FS/WTB post about caps being in the title... My post was deleted and vestax fined me, I was not at all rude about the admins not doing their job... i have actually have asked vestax before for help when he first became an admin, but now he is abusing his power... here are some of my reasons why I am VERY ANGRY about this...
here is where I was fined

1. I mad a FS/WTB post about a year ago and had it in caps and I was fined, even though there is no where stating that caps are not allowed in thread titles.

2. I made a post a while back regarding the loss of BA and fighting messed up for me when a reboot was done on the server. Everybody commented on my title being in caps and not about what my question was, I even had a full admin agree with my problem. HERE is the post

if I was fined for my post on that thread than everybody on the post linked in reason 2 should be fined for their rudeness towards me...

THIS IS RIDICULOUS

Im not on anyones side on this but i think you were fined because you were rude on a fs/wtb thread which costs money to make. On the other thread you didnt have to pay to make it so the people werent fined.

I have to 100% agree with DAWG on this.

I have seen people do plenty of things in FS threads including bumping their own posts before 12 hours and not get fined.

However, DAWG and I try to point something out and get fined for it.

Instead of fixing the thread in question where we get fined, it stays that way for hours until we point it out. Then we get fined for pointing it out all the time it just sits there.

Selective enforcement of the rules is not an option.

wow...
i was just fined for something i posted...
i dunno... half a week ago?
im in the negatives now...
I didnt think vestax had a problem with you from reading this, but (from what it looks like) he might be fining everyone to make is seem as though hes not targeting you...when in truth he might be.

(whatever happend to warning? i was never warned and my comment was all in fun and games NOT meant to insult anyone)

not an option? are you kidding, it's a way of life!

This is stated in the FS/WTB guide lines.

"There is no fee for simply replying to an existing thread. "

If there are going to be fines for things they should be mentioned in the guide lines. Not just implied, because new players do not know these things. If it isn't stated in print than everybody just makes their own interpretation of what the "rules" are suppose to be.

That person was fined as you asked. Your fine was given much more clarity as to why you were fined and yet you made this post anyhow. Just now I was asked to fine more people for 'consistency sake'. I do not like fining people. I do not like editing posts. I do not enjoy the work to be done, such as public record posts, that come after I fine someone. I do not enjoy getting CMs telling me that I am both not doing enough AND abusing my power. I do not enjoy seeing, reading, and having to deal with posts like this. I would really like to be spending my Sunday away from CB.

As for the fine, it was 25k. I have sent dozens of people into negative cash amounts and you complain about 25k. The fine COULD be made to be proportional to how much money you possess, but we don't do that.

Now I don't know if you tried to contact an admin about the issue you had with the post in caps, but I certainly didn't get a CM. The thread you have an issue with is NOT the place where you make the complaint. I hate to repeat myself, but it bumps the thread (this is particularly bad if it is an annoying post with an all caps title), it doesn't actually inform anyone, with the power to do anything about, of what is wrong, and (just in case you complaint is superfluous, or even when it isn't) it adds unwanted clutter to the post. Not to mention that such replies encourage even more comments not about the sale.

If you think for a moment that I'm some power tripping admin going on a rampage then you are wrong. What I have done most recently is the result of someone breathing down my neck, telling me how to do my job, and for some reason thinks he can do it better. I am sick of this and I don't really want to be the punching bag when you don't get your way.

Yeah make the rules more clear before you go on a power trip.

And DAWG "There is no fee for simply replying to an existing thread." refers to the 5k for starting a new FS/WTB thread and how it is only applied when making a new thread, not when posting to an existing one. It is not immunity from being fined.

shouldnt it be up to the creator of the thread to see if the "violator" should be fined? kinda like it is in real life... if someone doesnt want to press charges then the other person isnt punished (for minor crimes) Should be the same way here.

Are you really saying that you are utterly shocked and amazed that there are fines for off-point, non-buying, peanut-gallery commentary in others' FS/WTB posts? Didn't we already have this discussion? Wasn't the latest reiteration during Glory's sale?

You open a free thread for discussion, you get discussion. You pay for an ad to buy or sell something, you don't have to put up with others' opinions of your sale -- interfering with your commerce or just cluttering up your thread. You have a problem with someone else's sale, you open a free discussion thread to offer up your two pennies on how other people do business. This is news?

Why this isn't in "General", I can't tell -- unless it's supposed to be just a public record of your opinion and not an actual discussion?

The rules do not clearly stat that.

I take the comment "There is no fee for simply replying to an existing thread." to mean exactly what it says.

Get the rules cleared up before you just start fining people. I have always liked you vestax and I have never had a problem with you, actually you were one of the first admins to be nice to me and help me out.

I just still feel that this was un called for and that if fines are going to be done than there need to be rules set in stone so that new people won't make mistakes in threads and get fined for something that they didn't know.

What are you comments regarding all the posts about my thread that was done in caps and everybody hammered me about that.... you even commented on that..

Also you commented on a FS/WTB post that chappy pointed out that was in caps and your response to that was:

"I was going to wait until he got flamed a bit more Shade. :P "

Does that mean you are setting people up for multiple fines?

oh and basty I had it in general but I think vestax moved it to public.. ?? don't know, seems like general but what do I know

oops I said chappy I mean the reference to shades fix to the title

Fixed thread title, np :)
--Shade, March 4 2006 4:09 PM EST

I was going to wait until he got flamed a bit more Shade. :P
--Vestax, March 4 2006 4:11 PM EST

I am not "shocked" or "amazed" about the fines.

I, personally, am "shocked" about the selectiveness of the fining process. Some people post in FS/WTB threads nothing relative to the sale, nothing happens. Others bump their threads well ahead of the 12 hour bump rule, nothing happens. DAWG and I point out there is an all caps thread title, after notifying another admin about it, and we get fined. And that post was there for hours before it got fixed and the fines assessed.

That, is the basis of my point in this thread

I didn't move it.

I thought your fines were for pointless commentary in this thread: http://carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001kqt. My bad.

I moved the post to PR because that's where posts calling for admin action go.

Beyond that I have no comment except to say that it's pointless to try to codify everything as black and white as some people would like, and trying to pretend otherwise just makes you a [G_Beee Edit]
Bleh, now we have a spate of folks using that word in chat in an unsuitable context - not on my watch :p.

No Bast,

I know why I got fined. I am typing about the selectiveness of the fining process.

"just makes you a [Edit: bad word]"

really nice... great post jon

I am a business man and work in a professional environment, and I know just as well as any body else that when rules are stated and instructions are written, if you aren't very specific than mistakes happen and people being to poke holes in those rules and instructions.

All I have ever asked for is a little courtesy and help to be added for other users benefit, that would cut down on all the hard work that admins have to do by patrolling threads.

if it was stated in the rules for the forums what is not allowed and what will cause you to receive a fine than none of this junk would happen. I have seen many many requests for this and I don't see how and why it is such a huge hassle to make a few additions to the rules and guidelines for Forums.

sorry, but i would like to ask what powers do the admins have?

from my observation it seem full admins(G Beee, bartjan) are just banning multis and that sub-admins are patrolling threads.

now im not saying either admins are not doing there jobs.

can sub-admins change the rules in the threads? if so i understand what you are saying DAWG but if they can't, don't blame it on them, get in contact with a full-admin?

if you have answers to my questions please don't be rude.

Thanks.

I don't know what exact rights admins and sub admins have... but I do know that the man who just called me a "[[Admin. Edit]]".. has the ability to change those rules in the forums... oh well I guess we will just have to see what happens... I am tired of asking and making requests they just get viewed as stupid or some other degrading word...

ok maybe this will help some
FAQ

it is the least I can do.

I wouldn't mind seeing a stat that shows how much someone has been fined. I know I've been fined for 1 mil once.... It would be interesting to see who's at the top and would help identify people causing trouble or simply getting overly targeted in fines. I certainly wouldn't want to be at the top of that list, but unfortunately, I think I am or at least in the top 5 there too.

I demand this person be fined, for their obvious crime.

Bumping without 12 hour wait.
http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001krP

(I don't really demand anything, that post didn't have the desired effect)

I remember reading the "Don't bump your post for 12 hours" rule, but it's not under the fs/wtb forum policy. Was it posted in the forums? :/

WHAT?!?!?!?!?


i just read through this thread to have a little laugh...and come to see a different thread with the title "Fined Grim Reaper, smallpau1 & Haruka"......

PUHLEASE!!!!!!!!!!

THE THREAD was about someone OBVIOUSLY JOKING or just plain ripping newbs off by sellin the "rarest" item in the game, A Steel Breastplate" for a min bid of 100k, now if it really means i cant joke in a joking FS/WTB thread, then shoot me, cuz i thought i saw the joke....

Now, i commend Vestax (I have loved Vestax from the start) on paying us all back, but puhlease, was the fine really necessary on *at least* that thread? Someone seriously needs to write up some writing rules somewhere about these postings leading to fines. Maybe next to help, and link to "Rules" (of forum posting).

Time for bed i have calculus in 6.5 hours, Good nite everyone.

Dude, with only 28 of them in existance, it *is* the rarest Body armour in the game....

Actually, at 28, it is the rarest item in the game...

Well DAWG it seems they fine the people with or without money evenly I guess. For no apparent reason usually...

If you think that will change then there needs to be set standards for when and where admins are allowed to hand out fines and what exactly those fines are capable of becoming.

No wonder you've logged and not told me about weather or not you want to buy my millions. Not good strategy in a game to keep fining the people wth money, because they're teh ones who obviously keep coming back and create your community.

ZAP

The fine COULD be made to be proportional to how much money you possess, but we don't do that.

I moved the post to PR because that's where posts calling for admin action go.

Beyond that I have no comment except to say that it's pointless to try to codify everything as black and white as some people would like, and trying to pretend otherwise just makes you a [[Admin. Edit]].

and if you expect anything to happen even though it's in the Admin attention thread see post 3 about what this games relationship rules are with it's players.


Be glad it's not Millions mind you.

stop posting before you get banned ZAP

Okay I'll post a good idea then. Why don't we have an Admin make a Wiki section on fines and what they consist of and pertain to.

Heh...ZAP is the noise that bartjan's computer makes when he doles out discipline.

Anyway, if you're going to stand up to THE MAN, at least do it in a coherent fashion so that he and the rest of us have a chance of understanding your point before proceeding to ridicule it.

MM,
Making a post to a thread is perfectly legal, Zap has done nothing wrong so stay off of his back unless you have something to comment regarding the topic of this thread.

"Try to stay on topic within threads. "

that is a guideline, please follow it MM

DAWG. come on bro he posted 4 straight times just to quote existing posts. did you actually read it?

yes I did read it, why would I post on something that I didn't read...
again please stay on topic with the thread.... this is cluttering my thread with your useless posts...

I will beat the same drum again, and for perhaps the last time. (the applause is overwhelming)

LESS IS MORE when it comes to the use administrative powers. In this case, you have fined two of the most active members for what is if nothing else them trying to help you police the forums.

I will mention IF the community was NOT encouraged to assist the admins in their duties, perhaps the confusion of when and where it is appropriate to do it would not be an issue.

There is an incongruity when you say, find multi, post your belief for ALL the world to see, and if you are wrong no big deal, then turn RIGHT around and say, but if you post about capitals in the titles of post, you will be fined.

Maybe I am the only one who sees this as incongrous, but in the end, my original mantra stands, LESS is MORE, fine those people who legitimately hurt the game, and a quick warning perhaps for those JUST trying to help in a spirit similiar to the admin sanctioned actions of multi hunting.

Do this and your community will be a better place. And yes I did say your.

This not the first time (and won't be the last) that someone asks for clearer rules.

It also won't change anything, and I am as annoyed by that as anyone.

Long ago, a friend of mine (very smart, very eloquent, very logical) asked for the PG policy to be better explained, re-worded, and enforced more consistently. He got treated very poorly, to say the least. I also got treated poorly when I agreed with him in forums. He and I were mainly just bandying ideas about, but as soon as certain admins got wind of it, it got ugly very quickly.

You will find that even the rules that ARE stated are ambiguous. The FAQ states that all-caps posts are "subject to fines". "Subject". That does not mean it is mandatory -- things such as that rarely are. I suppose they could be, but as Sefton says, less is more. An admin still gets to decide when a fine is levied. If someone has a betetr idea on how that should all transpire, please, let us know. I, for one, do NOT want blind, mandatory sentencing. Again, read Sefton's well-made points.

I don't know why some rules aren't better posted (did anyone find the "bump" rule yet?). Lack of information causes rumors, he-said/she-said, and animosity, and side-taking. I despise every one of those things, as they are, quite simply, buzzkills.

But I do know that the people trying to keep things even-keel around here are decent folks. I have had tiffs with very nearly every one of them, but I realize that they aren't "out to get me" or being unfair for unfair's sake. There is no conspiracy here. Yes, there are cliques (an indirect reason I abhor clans so much) and there is plenty of blind loyalty, but as far as I can tell, that is pretty much how life goes. I can't say I expect a game with such a versatile community to be more perfect than Life itself. Can anyone?

"I do not like fining people. I do not like editing posts. I do not enjoy the work to be done, such as public record posts, that come after I fine someone. I do not enjoy getting CMs telling me that I am both not doing enough AND abusing my power. I do not enjoy seeing, reading, and having to deal with posts like this. I would really like to be spending my Sunday away from CB. " -- Vestax

Then why are you an admin? It sounds to me like you should get off the pot.

"I don't know why some rules aren't better posted (did anyone find the "bump" rule yet?)" -- sutekh

It used to be in the guidelines, but was removed long ago.

"I will beat the same drum again, and for perhaps the last time. (the applause is overwhelming) .. LESS IS MORE when it comes to the use administrative powers." -- Sefton

Please keep beating your drum until the administrative staff understands. If they fine you, I'll personally pay the fine.

"Issues with threads should be addressed in CM or PM to an admin, not in the thread itself. Posting in the thread doesn't solve the problem if we don't look inside and only bumps the thread you have an issue with. Not to mention the fact that it adds unwanted clutter." -- Vestax (the PR Dawg/Ranger fined thread)

Vestax, you seem to have made this rule up yourself. It isn't printed anywhere in any guidelines that I've seen. Why are you creating rules?


I have an idea... how about we make a Wiki page for all the ad-hoc rules that admins create? We can then correlate that list to which of the admins will be enforcing it. For instance, the above rule was created and will be enforced by Vestax. I'm sure there are others abound that we don't know about yet. It'd be nice to find out about the "rules" before breaking them.


This "community", if you can call it that, is a lot like the state police. Everyone breaks the speed limit, but only some are pulled over, and even less are given tickets. However, in this realm, there is never a posted speed limit, or even an implied one, so you always have to walk on eggshells in fear of being caught for some unknown crime. The town of "Salem" comes to mind.

Perhaps the admins have to fill quotas.... so basically... never post near the end of the month?

Sutekh, where in the FAQs does it say that?

Here

That's not the FAQs.

Please, don't confuse people by having the official FAQ, and then something else beside it...

Jon is the one that promoted the Wiki to Help, he did however say this:

"The FAQ under Basics seems out of place to me. Out of place and suckier in editing quality than the official FAQs. I'm not sure what should be done with this. If these are really FA, we can add them to the official one."

This however is only commentary on the placement and formatting, not on content. There isn't a section in the "official" FAQ (even though the Wiki is supposed to be "official") for forum rules. Perhaps we need an admin to go through the Wiki FAQ and clarify what is correct and what isnt? Or even better, perhaps this section needs to be added with the official rules to the "official" FAQ?

It doesnt seem right that "official" Help for the game would contain and incorrect FAQ section.

Or better yet don't post in a FS/WTB unless you are making a serious inquiry or bid on an item. The rest should be sent via CM to either the seller or an Admin.

Sorry if I mis-spoke concerning the FAQs.

Surely, we have a problem here, though? We cannot even agree on the meta-data, much less the data, much less the intent of that data.

This looks like several problems to me, at least one of which can be fixed by rearranging content, placing content in the most appropriate spots (forum posting guidelines, perhaps?), and education.

I think this is the main bulk of DAWGs point, and the more people discuss and get confused, the more is designates an issue, yes?

Sut has a point there. While I appreciate Seft's point of 'Less Is More', sometimes 'less' is the problem. What we have less of in CB is 'communication'. You cannot educate or solve problems without proper lines of communication. What I've seen more of over the time I've spent in CB is lots of noise without any sense. So many threads with people just shouting at each other not talking with each other.

What we need is clearly defined guidelines for behaviour. Most are but obviously there are clouded issues that need to be addressed.

My less is more is definately NOT directed to communication or education. It is directed only at the application of administrative powers, in which I feel less application will create a more enjoyable community, the consequences of which I believe to be less of a need to apply administrative powers. In other words if the community environment is better, then the community as a whole will behave better. If there is any point of which to attack my reasoning, it is there. Less is more could lead to more of the bad thing and less of a good, I just believe it to be the opposite personally.

Although efforts to clarify and clearly present rules of conduct are in general good, let's not pretend that such a thing as _all_ rules of conduct can or will ever be explicitly presented. Some common sense will always be necessary. In other words, people who say "but it's not written that _that_ word/phrase/epithet is forbidden", or "I never read that I couldn't post _that_ particular combination of requests" or even "by reading that 'no fee comes from replying to messages' must mean I can post replies with impunity from any penalty" should be fined in perpetuity.

off soapbox.

You sound like marriage guidance Johnny! ;)

I agree though. The main cause of concern here seems to be that rules are enforced inconsistantly. If we should keep a rule, it should be enforced consistantly. Otherwise, lets drop it.

And we all need to know what the rules are. :)

Obviously, as Jon points out, not everything is completely black and white, but at least we can know where we all stand. :)

In situations like this, I usually ask myself "what would the Spice Girls do?". The answer is clear (but counter to Sefton) : TOO MUCH IS NEVER ENOUGH!

/sings "So tell me what you want, what you really really want..."

Seft, just to clarify - I wasn't attacking any of your points - which are very good points that I happen to agree with. I was just using your 'mantra' to make my own point.

While I'm thinking about it, the mantra I tend to repeat to myself when I'm going about my day to day business is that old chestnut "Do Unto Others As You Would Be Done By", and it's not something I've seen in CB that often. I've seen plenty of arrogance, plenty of input into the game that is nothing but ego driven. I've seen rudeness, a lack of humility and a shortage of good humour. There are, and always have been, a lot of very cranky people who should just lighten up.

Some things should be common sense, some things should just be a matter of good manners. But you will always have people who don't have either. In that case you need to be as clear on what the acceptable behaviour is as you can.

And each and everyone of us should go about our business with as much kindness, compassion and good humour as we can manage. And if we can we should be doing that unconditionally. Not expecting applause or something back for our actions.

Of course I'm living in a fantasyland. But it's a nice dream to have...

I am going to have to go with NSFY on this. What part, you ask? ALL OF IT!

NSFY knows all.

I've one more point to make at this point before I disappear to cook dinner for the wife and me, and to listen to some old Talking Heads albums:

None of us h_a_v_e to be here. Nobody is forcing us to log on every day and spend time in this place. Anbody that doesn't like it here here's a link in the left hand frame: 'Log Out'.....

It's good to see that nothing has changed in the way that Jonathan respects or in this case disrespects his dedicated players. I cannot believe you actually called DAWG a [Edit: bad word]Jonathan. Hold old are you? He was treated inconsistent to previous forum violaters and questioned why. Did it make you feel better to degrade him like that? All I can say is wow.

As we watch this slowly degrade let me say this Jon. I think your policy of allowing regular members to hunt multis in a public forum significantly increases the overall problem here, which is quite simply the rules have not been codified as black or white. Whether this is possible or not is a GREAT political debate, but not needed here. What IS needed here is the simple act of removing the multi hunting helpers from public view. How many important (and by important I mean the impact of the multi is non-trivial) multis does this public force actually find and get removed. Make ALL admin assitance private and POOF no confusion about whether or not some sort of public member intervention is required or even desired.

Once done you can BLANKETLY say (or all black say) if you think you have found a member who has violated a rule or policy of CB, CM an admin or sub-admin. All public posts will be disregarded and subject to fine. Simple, easy, and all black.

What would we truly do without G_Beee?

I know I can not get a word in edge wise here without seeming to be bias, but I will give it a shot.


1. The rule about bumping within 12 hours was removed from the rule listing on FW/WTB. It needed to be cleared up by someone who is better with wording and it was never done. I was the original author of the rule, enough people tried to hang me over some of the points and I agreed that they were vague.

2. Consistantsy does need to be improved, if you fine Y for certain actions ask yourself if you were fine X for it as well. If you would be reluctant
to do so, then you need to think it over again.

2a. Players need to remember that admins may interpret the rules differently, just like the judges who interpret laws.

3. You also have to remember that text on a screen does not include the emotion that would be seen if you were talking to the person face to face. Such as a chuckle, a smug grin, or the look of being confused.


I am not going to comment on the current issue that was brought up by this thread because I do not actively go behind other admins and check up on their work, that brings a division between us.

Token gestures and more token gestures - whats the point ?We all know the rules/limits - just play the game and accept the inevitable.

So.......... anyone watch that hockey game last night? good game.. good game..

/me closes thread.

This is like the English Legal System.

Nah, in the English legal system, you get old ladies convicted of assult, when being pushed down by a burgler breaking into your house at night, you grab the only thing to hand (a baked beans tin on a floor level shelf), throw it with all your pensioner might, and knock the burgler into a coma.

>_<

Of course, that might be complete hear say (not the band!), but it sounds like something we'd do over here... *sigh*

To Err Is Human, To Forgive, Devine

or Divine, depends on if you were brought up in Kentucky or Mississippi :)

Haha, yeah, I found out the correct spelling from a CM from.. guess who :p

*Hugs Bast*

Yes it is time for little old wolf to give his hay penny worth of thoughts. I was going to keep out of this issue but... would rather not let you all off easy.
Basically none of this game likes to roll with the punches. Cliched maybe but it applies to the current situation very well. When you first get hear no one sends you a list of every rule, and yet, you are expected to know. You do not raise cane over your first kick for flooding or bad language though you may get mad. It seems to me that DAWG and Ranger and everyone else giving Jon a hard time have just forgotten what it is like to be reprimanded. This is how it is people. You are punished in what seems a harsh way and ,instead of just going on with life like everyone else does, you decide it's time to throwdown.
Now I know I am going to seem like a brown noser but truly I will say this anyways. You are all playing a game with someone who doubtfully cares one whit. You all seem to think that your righteous indignation and anger will carry you through to the end like what happens in the movies. Guess what? It won't. You get mad (all of you including Jon) and want only your opinion to count. Guys/Gals just pretend its your first day on CB1/CB2 and let it go. Pay the fine take the kick but go on with life. Neither martyrdom nor stubborness will make this issue change one wink. Except for maybe an extra paragraph in the forum which no one will read.

Hola folks.

Pizza oven.

I disagree with how you put a lot of that, GW, but one part I agree with. Sometimes people do forget how to just roll with the punches, instead of being offended that they, a long-standing member of the community, screwed up.

It doesn't necessarily apply to this situation, but I *have* noticed that. I just wanted to point that out above everything else in your rant.

Thanks OB. Thats the main theme, well what I MEANT to be a theme, of my writing. I get off on tanents.... alot.

I agree one needs to "roll with the punches". The point of the thread was not to say the fines were not justified. But rather how arbitrary they are handed out. In addition, when trying to get an admin to fix a posts title (for which others would be fined), myself and DAWG get fined.

Then to top it all off, DAWG and I get called a quite nasty slur by Jon, someone who, by his own admission should be a role model for the community. Of all things, that is the one that upsets me the most. I try to think I do good for the community in general. I try to be friendly to most people. Yes, some do not see eye to eye with me, but you cannot be liked by all. But I see where my place now is.

You are letting injustice rule you. Ranger you are supposed to be a better and stronger person then giving up because of a bad decision. Your place is with the community, not banned and just a memory people lament and wwish would come back.
You are a fool to be doing what you are doing. This matter should have up and closed instantly. Instead it is turning into the biggest thing sense HellRazor's reset. This frustrates me from the complete lack of it mattering and the fact that of all the people in the world to complain about you do it about the people you loved a week ago! Pick a black sheep and stick with it or stop being fickle people.

yah sorry GW I myself cannot go along with the futility should breed silence logic. While it may or may not be ineffectual to voice ones opinions, it is more often than not cathartic to do so. While my opinion may not make a change, that fact that I expressed it in a proper fashion with sound reasoning and logic will make me feel better regardless.

And then there is hope.....

Hope that a change could be made.

Hope that we as a community will simply agree to stop finding fault in our fellow members simply for fault's sake.

Hope that the people in charge will consider more the damage inflicted than the rule broken.

Hope that we can be as good as we want to be for each other and ourselves.

And sorry but as long as I have hope, I will have a voice to shout it with.

Then shout and make it easier for the bad people to find and kill you. Thank you for your wonderful service to the down trodden Sefton. Your burial will be planned for tomorrow. Once again thanks everyone who yells and screams at the powers that be.

/me remembers again why he doesn't agree with GW in public - the tangents he goes off on. =P

futility breeds silence logic? futility should mean to wait for a better oppurtunity. You are all going at this with nobility and other stuff that makes no sense. Not only are you fighting for the wrong reason you are fighting at the wrong time.

Perhaps we are discussing different posts GW. I do not yell at the powers that be, I said I think Less Application of Administrative powers will have MORE positive effect than the reverse.

As far as finding me, well, I do not exactly hide myself or my opinions, I doubt I just suddenly got noticed.

As far as a service, pish posh, I have selfish reasons, not a service to you or anyone. Thanks is not needed for I did not do it for you, I did it for me. I want the CB community to be a certain way, because I like it that way, think it is better that way, and will not be silenced or in the very least satifiied until it is that way.

As for the burial, "confusion will be my epitaph"

As for the rest well, I'll let you cypher the sarcasm from the serious in my post, make you work a little for it, as yours was plain and obvious.

Maybe, unlike some, I do not try to act intelligent by making others work to see my point. I find it annoying that so many people take what I say as if they were saying it, completely forgetting that other people's point of views are DIFFERENT from your own. People need to wake up and stop pretending everyone else is a slightly weaker and stupider copy of them.I believe that if the people in this game stopped looking at this like that this never would have happened.

My wife's younger sister has 2 boys, 7 and 9 years old. They constantly and almost endlessly
bicker about things that to the rest of us, are really quite trivial, but to them the issues are oh, so
important...
When they are finally reprimanded by an adult to stop, the 9 year old might offer a word or 2 of
resistance, but will always drop the issue quickly, The 7 year old, however, never does. He goes
on and on with "but he...", and "why do I..." and "how come whenever...". Recently, my mother-in-
law (the grandma) became so frustrated with this behavior, she looked the 7 year old in the eye
and simply said, very sternly, "Pizza oven."
This stopped him in his tracks. He had no idea what to say, how to react, what it meant. He was
dumbfounded, and just walked away. To this day, if he is being obstinate with a grown-up, you
merely have to say "pizza oven", and he will stop, stomp once, say "I don't know what pizza oven
means!", and then run off to play, quickly forgetting whatever the issue was.
This thread so reminds of any argument between my nephews that I had to try it, but Sefton has
revealed why "pizza oven" could not possibly work here - the altruistic, and those they defend who
feel persecuted (whether they are or not), are a selfish lot. They want things to be as they believe
they should be, and they are determined to make sure everyone know what that way is, and why it
is better than everyone else's way. There is nothing wrong with that in itself, but then the
stubbornness enters. They will not have their voice silenced until they have achieved their way! The
problem is, 99% of the time, that way is impossible for a variety of reasons, but they just don't
know when to stop.

A 7 year old knows when to stop.

Pizza oven. ;)

Has it occured to anyone else that BM might not be entirely.... hmm... sane? I mean when I was so reading what he said I got so startled that I swallowed my gum!

LOL take the high road and then at the same time, try to tell me that my reasons for fighting are wrong and the timing is wrong. Tell me because my efforts will cause no change I should not make the effort. Not suggesting anything but silence because my effort is wasted. But fortunately for me, my effort and the results there of are judged by no one but me.

Since you are not me (big sigh of relief I am sure), although your opinion was read and considered, I think I will continue to put forth my ideas in my own time in my own way, regardless if you think "Not only are you fighting for the wrong reason you are fighting at the wrong time."

I create no nobility for my cause. There is no righteous indignation to my post. It is simply a desire to see a different kind of community here. You are welcome to romantisize it ANY way you want. Again, I ask have you read my posts in this thread or just the lastest one in an effort to continue your tangent based line of disinformation?

P.S. So it seems in this case I do not need to pretend anything

and yet you try. First of all you pretended I only addressed you. There is no second really. The first mistake seemed to be enough. As a matter of fact the only people I was thinking about when posting at all (except for response to the post you made about me) were the main players in this.

Sefton and GW use the built in CM system to go back and forth.

I think we done Special_J. and like I said I never meant for it to get that way. But won't against again *salutes*

I am NOT a seven year old! *stamps foot*

And I know what a pizza oven is.

What now, Barzoo?

<Ranger> Mikel was fined 1 million by Jon
<Rizz> what did mikel do
<{BW}FireForge> holy...... cow
<Ranger> called Jon out on something
wyrm421 has joined the room.
<Rizz> =S
<Ranger> Jon disagreed and fined him
<Rizz> thats silly
<{BW}FireForge> just a little bit
<Ranger> its Jon';s world, we just play in it
<Ox> hmm, what did he "call him out" on?
<Ox> I forget
<{BW}FireForge> so if someone makes me mad, i should fine him for it???? like i said *bullcrap*!!!!!
<Ranger> o god, DAWG just too it to the next level
<Rizz> yeah =/
<{BW}FireForge> what?
<{BW}FireForge> where?
<Rizz> forums
<Ox> forums
<{BW}FireForge> which one?
<Rizz> dawg keeps to himself alot like he does say
<{BW}FireForge> omg......
Dathron left the room.
<{BW}FireForge> nice one..... DAWG is gonna get his butt kicked
<{BW}FireForge> he's talking about a thread that happened over a year ago?
<Ranger> he is proving a point
<Ranger> selective enforcement
<{BW}FireForge> right, i didn't read the whole thing
<{BW}FireForge> i'm going to agree with him.




i'm fed up with it, do you know how many times i get in trouble for doing that?

LOL, Sut! What happens now is that I walk away and let you tantrum yourself into exhaustion. :)

I wonder if my professor will allow me to use this forum discussion in my research paper: "The Social Impact of the Internet and Technology"...

I am of the same mind as Sefton where butting out is the best option. DAWG doesn't post very often, but when he does, that means he's probably got a point to prove. Maybe Vestax has something against him, the evidence is there because Vestax left himself open to interpretation.. but I like to believe that it was an innocent joke in the BA thread. I'm offended by John's comment in this thread which was aimed directly at my clan mates, this isn't the first time... and I wasn't even involved. Nice way to show respect to the players that play the game and help get others interested. I know Ranger helped me out early on as well. DAWG used to help people out with loans until he got screwed over too much. In turn, I've helped plenty of others get going as well.

If there is a serious issue, and you are in a power of authority, don't joke or try to be funny in that thread, it'll only backfire. It only says "it's ok to make these types of comments" to the other people in the game.

With that did Vestax fine himself for his degrading comment to DAWG in his General BA thread? Same with others that stuck their nose in trying to tell some of us how stupid we are.. when obviously some have faith in the system and others don't.

I know it's not very hard to make a rule codebook on forum/chat or whatever, but i remembered jon said once it's not worth it since anyone can try to bend a word into whatever he/she wants (something like that). Therefore interpretation can be somewhat slightly different. However, the main point remain the same: you are getting punished. Just move on, 'cause you all love each other, and you all know it too.

"It's just a game" get over it, tired of the bickering going on in this thread, as I just stated it's a game, don't let it run your life, and don't try and run other peoples lives thru the game, let the people in charge do what they are supposed to do

"Pizza Oven" that's great. Around here though when people want to kill a thread (notably in FS/WTB) they usually use "Bump".

So with that . . .

Bump.

I hate long threads takes to long to read>

And what if the people in charge are not "doing what they are supposed to do"? What then?

I've seen very few communities online that aren't subject to abusive admins. The few that have escaped said affliction act as Sefton keeps advising: less administrative action results in a more positive effect for the community as a whole. When admins address people with respect, even when "administrating", only then do they deserve respect. This means putting up with things that might be otherwise undesirable to put up with. For instance, if someone breaks one of the 43543543543 unwritten rules (such as DAWG breaking the unwritten rule: Don't post in a thread mentioning that the title is in all caps), a CM or a PM in chat works nicely to explain what the person did wrong. When conveyed respectfully, your message will get through to open ears, the person will be much more likely to comply willingly, and the community will gain a more positive atmosphere. When you adopt Vestax's more dictatorial methods, only negative comes forth.

But they are rules, nonetheless, and need to be followed and

ENFORCED

by the administrators. for example, the bumps, it says don't do it, yet no one gets in trouble when they DO bump.

As I mentioned earlier, that "rule" disappeared form the posting guidelines a long time ago.

That goes back to the discussion about the large number of unwritten rules, which is a bit of a crock in and of itself.

Regarding rule enforcement... there are multiple ways ot enforce a rule. I gave two possible examples in my post. One betters the community, while the other destroys it.

Fine, children.

I will solve the problem such that you don't have to worry about the whims of the admins, who obviously owe all of you a favor anyway.

Thread closed.