Imbalance btwn tanks/mages? (in General)

QBPixel Sage May 20 2006 1:46 PM EDT

Yes yes, I'm throwing up a topic that has been discussed to death. I've finally changed my view on it, despite my stubborn mindset on the subject.

However, my view of overpowering isn't based on training experience, its the money management. It seems lately that mages have a habit of spending maybe a few mil on what they need, then they start selling the rest of it because it becomes useless to them.

But tanks don't have that advantage. They need to constantly upgrade their weapons and armor to keep up with the rest of the crew. They must upgrade four main aspects: Damage modifyer, to-hit, AC, and displacement boots' evasion if any. What do mages have? After they're done with their AG's, its just mainly displacement books.

Therefore, I'd like to propose some possible changes to the structure of the game, and they're not small. These are as of now half-baked, so help me finish baking them.

- Alatar's Gloves (and even the CoI): I propose that each + only grants 0.25% extra damage, or even as low as 0.10%. To make up for the lowered damage upgrade, the upgrade curve should be also lowered. Basically, it should take longer to upgrade the item, but in the long run the mages could possibly have a tiny bit more firepower, that is after spending quite a few million.

- DB's: Heighten the upgrade curve. It should not be so easily upgraded as to prevent anyone from hitting the minion, but rather only to prevent triple or double hits. Tanks have to spend money on to-hit as well, along with damage modifyer. I'd say that reasonably, DB upgrade cost should be around twice the cost of upgrading a weapon up 1 to both damage modifyer and to-hit. Ex: blacksmith cost for DB [0] (+1) would equal MH [blahx2] (+2). If that is already the case (or something near it), then it may need to be increased further.

- More mage armor! Tanks have so many different types of armor to spend money on. Mages do not, meaning again, they can spend a bit of it to get themselves started, then sell the rest.

- Mages, you're going to hate me for this. I agree with what someone previously said on this issue. If a fireball is projected from a mage, then a minion should be able to dodge it. Thus, tanks will have more use for DB's, especially against mages. Mages themself would be more tempted to get higher DB's, thus they would likely spend more money on them. How this would be calculated is up to Jon. I assume adding a new type of trainable skill called Direct Damage Accuracy (DDA) might do the trick.

CB money has really been losing its value, since most by now realize they can get the same firepower as a tank by being a mage, only they don't have to spend money. I assume this issue was one of many that caused Ranger to lose interest in CB, along with a few others.

Anywho, posts your thoughts and criticism. Help me do some baking =D

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 20 2006 1:52 PM EDT

Got no criticism of this.


Mage weapons maybe? Give a reason for that WA and allow a cash sink...

{CB1}Lukeyman May 20 2006 1:59 PM EDT

mmmm cookies

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 20 2006 2:25 PM EDT

Vast fundamental changes to the game mechanics are about as likely as me giving YOU a warm fuzzy hug. Tanks need to put some armor on and stop complaining.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 20 2006 2:34 PM EDT

You can't get the same resistance with a mage you can with a tank, and you can't take the top without some AC. Mages are supposed to be cheap, that way you can save up to start a real team! The idea of making dbs an even more of a MUST HAVE item makes me shudder, I think you need to be sent to the corner for a while.

QBPixel Sage May 20 2006 3:06 PM EDT

{cb1}novice: You can't get the same resistance with a mage you can with a tank, and you can't take the top without some AC.

Exactly. Which is why there needs to be additional balancing, and mages need to have more motivation to spend on raising their AC too.

{cb1}novice: Mages are supposed to be cheap, that way you can save up to start a real team!

FYI, mages are as real as it gets. Have you taken a look at Cosmos lately? Is his team not "real" enough, to the point where he needs to sooner or later change to a tank? Look at Mikel's NCB. With his progress, I doubt he'll need to spend much more CB, much less switch to a tank. Since mages are as real as it gets, some balancing needs to be added so mages have to spend CB too.

{cb1}novice: The idea of making dbs an even more of a MUST HAVE item makes me shudder, I think you need to be sent to the corner for a while.

I don't see why.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 20 2006 3:13 PM EDT

Cosmos's team is busy cooking an example of anything it's moot.

Mikel will switch to a tank team, because he isn't stupid.

the theoretical item you want to create would cost about 10 mil base...that's enough for you?

lets try this again, Mages cast spells, and kill things with magic. Tank wear armor and kills things with weapons, how hard is this to get?

The fireball erupts right next to you, no one throws it, even dnd with it's extra super double complicated dual stat fsm approved pth method it still lets a fb hit in an entirely different manner than a weapon.

Why should mages be more like tanks? Ain't they supposed to mages?

QBPixel Sage May 20 2006 4:18 PM EDT

You've provided no basis or argument for Cosmos' team as "moot". Cooking itself? You mean AMF? That has nothing to do with the focus of the topic.

As for Mikel, I certainly hope you're right, or Mikel may be a bit offended if he isn't planning to go into tank mode.

The theoretical item I'd like to create could, key word "could" cost 10 mil, but certainly not for the base price, if that's what you mean. Even if it would cost 10mil+, that still doesn't amount to what gung-ho tanks have to spend on their weapons. Maybe you should check out the NW on some of the top weapons, if you haven't yet. The NW is quite in the sky.

I agree with you that mages casts spells, whereas tanks don't. No need to get offensive with "how hard is this to get?" Let's try using proper decorum, or we'll just be proving those who who said CB1's community is better right. Same goes with the comment on Mikel.

However, such an argument still lends nothing to the topic. Mages can cast spells, but that has nothing to do with balancing the game to make mages have to spend more CB. What if they were given a wand to enhance their abilities by adding enchantments to it? Spending money on enchantment points seems like a likely solution to many items in terms of balancing the game. And there's no law stating mages can't wear armor. That's one reason why the MCM exists.

Sure, the fireball erupts right next to you... but why does it have to? Why can't we change the description to "the fireball is launched from the mage"? Heck, the MM is likely launched too, so accuracy is needed.

Why should mages be more like tanks? Good question, but that has nothing to do with the focus of topic. And yes, they are supposed to be mages.

Cylo May 20 2006 4:49 PM EDT

My response to this is simple. Novice. I like you as a team-mate and as a person on this game, but your views about a few things and my own seem to differ on a few points. You speak in different threads about how there has to a paper to uc's rock, and other such posts, has me thinking. "What is the mages rock?"

I mean. A tank needs massive, 100 mil + nw to compete, where as a mage just needs exp and some db's. How is this balanced. I mean. The tank needs exp and the nw to compete. Mages can only have their attack come back by amf and the + to armor, but tanks can be held back by multiple things. DB's, base armor and + to armor, and a few ed's and other such things that help protect versus damage a tank can cause. I am writing this off the fly, but if needed i can expand on my thoughts more.

I'm just saying. Most people realize that lately, if you want to make a good start on cb. You need a mage, not you want one, but need one. because it's easy, cheap and effective. Not one person will say, "Hey, try a tank... You will have fun!". Why is that?.. Because it's not practical, unless you have unlimited resources which most people don't have.

In closing, you are basically saying that if you want to compete in cb without spending huge amounts in usd or other ways of getting cb without just fighting. You can't make a tank at all that competes. Doesn't that sound like the ultimate version of imbalance? If not then I'm very very confused and need to be taught some stuff.

Just my opinion and it might be dumb, especially since I didnt' take time to really think out my response and it was just the thoughts I had swirling around my head.

th00p May 20 2006 5:13 PM EDT

"You can't make a tank at all that competes. Doesn't that sound like the ultimate version of imbalance? If not then I'm very very confused and need to be taught some stuff."

I have one word for you, Cylo. The word is TAB. Who says that a tank cannot compete? up against a far larger Cosmos, with approximately 150,000 more MPR, TAB was still able to EASILY beat Cosmos. So, what you are saying about spending huge loads of money, yes Ranger did spend some, but not a whole bunch. Also, it is more about strategy than picking either tank or mage. Just look at Freed, who is spending several times my life's savings every year on his characters, yet still has not been able to catch poor TAB. Also, look at the new reigning champ of the neighborhood, Krang. Of course DAWG did spend some USD on Krang, but also no the "unlimited resources" you referred to. Just again to prove that Tanks do indeed rule supreme when you know what you are doing, and that mages are in fact the ones that "struggle" when they reach the top of the ladder.

QBJohnnywas May 20 2006 5:21 PM EDT

A tank is a tank, and a mage is a mage. A mage is able to do extreme damage for nothing and can make a lot of money. But a tank has the option to upgrade hugely in one go and hit multiple times each round, so doing massive amounts of damage. One of those big morgs hitting for a million each strike - add massive amounts of dex and high PTH and you're talking the possiblity of FOUR million per round at the moment - I think that's a pretty good trade off against the mage's free weapon.

What's the alternative? Making the two fighting classes become the same? That really would be boring...

QBJohnnywas May 20 2006 5:35 PM EDT

Anubis pulverized Jack Crow with Mjolnir [788824]
Anubis draws strength from his weapon! [138402]
Anubis crushed Jack Crow with Mjolnir [736723]
Anubis pulverized Jack Crow with Mjolnir [946549]
Anubis cries "WOOF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

That's one round against Krang....look at that damage....

I think the balance is about tanks have to pay to be good....when you're that good I think it's only right that it costs you!

QBBarzooMonkey May 20 2006 5:38 PM EDT

You could always blur the lines between Tank, Mage, and Enchanter, and really confuse people. I have a Tank who casts his own enchantment, and an Enchanter with a DD mage spell and higher AC than a lot of tanks, and I still have lots 'o fun!

But then, I'm "not quite right" (at least that's what I'm told), so don't try this at home, kids!


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 20 2006 7:02 PM EDT

Ok I was more than a little uppity this morning and I'm sorry.
Mikel will always do what he wants, and he is of course not stupid...

I ran a mage team up, I bought all the gear you could get, it worked really really really well. I then traded all of it (both items) for a full set of
armor (This word will keep popping up folks) and a Morg. I observed instantly a huge improvment in a odd litte thing called damage reduction, which incedentally has a whole lot to do with the balance of the game. Mages have a linear damage progression, tanks have to pump NW to the moon to keep up, in trade for this seeming deficit TANKS GET TO WEAR REAL ARMOR. No this does no include you UC folks, the days someone improves on Cylo's team for a balanced UC team I'll eat my hat (and it's pointy and made out of steel, and yes I'm looking at you boys in the tinfoils hats now). So plain and simple, no mages don't need more AC (more tinfoil?), yes if you ever plan to fight a mage you might want some damage reduction.

There are enough whackado items around that any low NW tank team can build itself to take on mages, or tie a preety bow around their head and go UC.

Mantra I'm sorry if I seemed to be insulting you, I just can't understand how it is that you haven't retrained that FB yet.

In summary, You will not beat a mage and a tank of equal pr with any strat that doesn't either involve either overwhelming (magical) damage in ranged or seriously power damage reduction. Those are your choices.

QBRanger May 20 2006 7:02 PM EDT

One of the reason I have decided to leave is the imbalance between mages and tanks.

As I have stated many times in the past, cb2 is far far different then cb1 in 1 main reason--ELB.

In cb1, tanks ruled since with a massive elb you could have done millions of HP damage per hit.

In cb2, there is no use for elbs with the nerfs to that weapon. In addition axbows are now useless and with PL mages have another advantage. Just look at Cosmos--- He does not "cook" himself. He has enough Walls with MgS's to take little damage from his own FB.

While tanks need massive NW to do damage, esp at high MPR levels, FB mages need very little. All mages need to do is pump more and more xp into FB.

My experience with TAB vs Cosmos showed that I was hitting the breaking point with the current NW I had on TAB. I was able to beat Cosmos easily, then it became harder and harder. The day I decided enough was enough was when with over 300M NW vs his 100M NW I was drawing with Cosmos about 1 out of every 25 battles. I saw that unless I pumped more and more NW I would soon start to lose to him.

Remember that tanks have to have 2 large NW sinks-their next to useless elb and their massive melee weapon while a FB mage has none. If a tank decides to go the way of 1 melee weapon and forgo the elb, then the FB mage gets 3 rounds of "free" damage.

The PL skill is far more beneficial to mage than tanks. Especially with the fact that VA is reduced by the PL redirection. TAB relied a lot on VA to beat Cosmos, but PL ruined that part of my strategy.

Jon has done a fine job of making tanks far less powerful than cb1 which was tankblender, however, the changes in cb2 have gone to the other extreme.

Here is to hoping cb3 is a far better balanced game.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 20 2006 7:14 PM EDT

I guess I'll have to wait till I can live to melee with Cosmos, but I have a hard time understanding how even with that ToE he isn't doing serious damage back to himself. The blow back from my AMF with a Max sized ToE was 100k a round with a fb just slightly smaller, I can't see the fb return being lower.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] May 20 2006 7:22 PM EDT

I've got to disagree with Ranger. The ELB needed to be toned down. You can't have anything as good as that if it get's to go first. Get rinf of ranged rounds and the ELB would have bee fine.

But for soething to do the most dmage, first. Was far overpowered, and rightfuly neede a nurf.

PL also needs a nerf.

Mages. I said from day one (check out some old forum posts...) That given time mages would over power tanks, when the upgrade costs got too much, It seems like we've reached that time already.

Maybe we need a re scale. Maybe we ned some new rules. Maybe CB3 will osrt this out, as a lot of new mechanics were introduced with CB2.

I don't know. But what I do know is CB2 is far from being a balanced game.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 20 2006 7:28 PM EDT

*stomps both feet as hard as he can on the ground*

How in christmas can you people stand around wearing rags complaining about getting burned? Mages do huge damage,
put on some clothes? Do you need your mom to tell you?
Oh here's another balancing factor, mages can't have huge
AC (well at least not until PS has his way).

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 20 2006 9:19 PM EDT

and If one of the regulars mentions a theoretical cb3 as if it's a forgone conclusion again I swear I'll have a fit.

A Bathing Ape May 20 2006 11:09 PM EDT

well, how about we have a mage trained dd allowance? Tanks have a weapon allowance because once it gets too big the tank isnt experience enough to use it yet so it adds to pr. (hear me out) Well, I think a mage should require some sort of staff at hire levels that would need forging so it can have the Power to use its trained DD spell. Without a staff it can do X damage. With a base staff it can do X+base allowance damage. With upgrades it can....(etc)

what do you think?

A Bathing Ape May 20 2006 11:11 PM EDT

(didnt make it very clear, the staff will not be a bonus of any sort. It will only allow the mages trained DD spell to be casted at 100% of trained exp)

Mantra May 21 2006 12:00 AM EDT

If one has the resources no mage can beat a powerful MH with VA, no matter what type of magic you use. The draws TAB was having against me where only achieved through some major DB's linked with tons of other very High End armor for my walls. And even then I couldn't draw him, only him me. The main conflict rests between the hp's stolen from the MH and the quickness in which you have to kill the opposing team. Because as the battle draws on the mage only becomes weaker against the leeching power of MH, this is true even if you use CoC, go ahead try it for yourself.

QBRanger May 21 2006 12:17 AM EDT


Not to debate this point, but I had over 3x your NW and was starting to get draws. Yes, if I had enough money, of course I could still beat you, however, there is a time when investment/return is not enough. With my MH, one more x was over 4M. Over time, unless I put more and more USD into the game, your FB would overcome my MH.

My only way of defeating you, considering your PL was reducing my VA leech, was to kill one minion a round. But with the PL it was taking me 3 sometimes to kill your first wall. Over time, your FB would grow large enough to finish me off by then.

And, I had enough of putting USD into this game. With all the disrespect from Jon, I had enough of trying to support this game with my time and money to continue.

I hope you prove my point wrong vs DAWG, but unless he puts more USD/CB2 into Krang, you will certainly prevail. There is no way he can keep up with your unlimited linear based damage potential except with an infusion of USD to buy CB2. He certainly cannot make enough CB2 to upgrade his MH only by fighting.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 21 2006 12:27 AM EDT

A ToA team complaining about the possibility of losing to a mage team seems well, just a little silly. Someone finally got a big enough pair of scissors, not shocking in the least. Doesn't matter how much gold leaf you put on that cardboard it still gets cut. Use a rock next time.

Mantra May 21 2006 12:46 AM EDT

Ranger, I think we've already established Krang's resource budget through his post on the financial infidelity taking place between him and his wife. But that huge amount of power he has so cunningly deployed has been a definitive struggle between Tank and Mage. The scores speak for themselves, he has decisively defeated me since he changed his strat to its current form.

My hat is off to him, But although the battle is won the war is far from over. And on that note I wouldn't be surprised to see you back on an NCB to prove the point once and for all.

QBPixel Sage May 21 2006 2:12 AM EDT

I propose mages have not armor, but... different types of magical clothing? They have AG's and the CoI. I think it should be possible to lower the effects of both, then add in new clothing (magical pants!) that also gives DD damage. Since tanks spend so much money, i still think mages should too. They should spend it on enchantments that instead of giving AC, raises DD and even a possible accuracy value. Of course, with so many items for a mage to wear, each point should raise maybe 0.10 to 0.25% damage. Overall, mages would end up spending more money, balancing the main issue I am addressing.

Maybe wands for accuracy?

[DC]Final Fight May 21 2006 2:42 AM EDT

Although i am fairly new at this game, with the experience i've had so far i have to agree with novice on this one. I started with a TOA tank and was getting eaten alive by mages half my level, even with a MH and VA. But since I changed to a heavy tank with a large antimagic field and a TOE, i have been easily beating mages from 40 to 100k over my MPR, but i have yet to see the 500k mages with the huge fireballs and magic missiles. But i hope that if i keep running this strategy with enough money to keep upgrading my equipment that i will be able to combat most mages.

QBPixel Sage May 21 2006 4:38 PM EDT

Possible mage gear:

Head: Gandalf's Hat (adds DD boost)
Body: Aura Tunic (maybe helps prevent some AMF backlash)
Gloves: Alatar's Gloves (exists, but adds less of a DD boost)
Cloak: Cloak of Istari (exists, but adds less of a DD boost)
Weapon: Hex Staff (adds DDA skill, or direct damage accuracy for each +)
Shoes: Avery's Boots (same as DB's, but for magical accuracy?)

LayWaste-[bA May 21 2006 4:55 PM EDT

Isn't there a majority around this fine community already against giving any more help to mages?
If you consider - mages being able to have 0$ NW while sustaining a good Score:PR ratio, and tanks not being able to sustain this ratio without a hefty amount of NW - a lack of balance, then so be it. ;)
But let's not make any more equipment to further the unbalance.

Undertow May 21 2006 5:04 PM EDT

I think if there is imbalance, it has to do with the variable power a tank has.

if you don't spend USD, or start a mage first to build NW, your tank is toast.

If you spend USD to pump your gear, you smoke everyone else.

Mages don't get that, the longer you play, the stronger the mage, period. 2 mages with the same number of won battles should have fairly similar stats.

Mages don't have any way to GAIN an edge. They can't just drop USD on their character if the want to improve. In fact, adding USD to the game is fairly useless to mages.

If you've GOT money, you should go tank. A rich person would waste his money on a mage.

If your anti USD, you shoud also be anti tanks, because they're the reason the market exists. Mages sell to tanks, period. Mages will never win, but they will make money.

QBPixel Sage May 21 2006 5:21 PM EDT

I disagree, Undertow. Ranger makes a compelling case. He keeped up his progress through USD, but keep this in mind. The cost for upgrading is exponential, meaning sooner or later, you'll have to spend thousands of dollars to even keep up. Mages, however, have linear progression, and they currently will NEVER have to spend USD to keep up. In the long, long run, tanks just won't have enough USD to keep up, since the upgrade cost grows way too much. Thus, since the mages can easily keep upgrading their power through linear progression without having to spend any USD, mages will eventually take over, and all that USD those tank users have spent will become utterly useless.

Thus, there needs to be incentive for mages to spend money too. Accuracy for DD is one partial solution for this. If DD needed accuracy, then mages would need to continually upgrade accuracy, meaning they'll need to spend.

The fact that tanks need CB to keep up and mages don't is an imbalance in itself.

As you stated, Undertow, if you got money, then go tank. That's the imbalance that's being addressed! I presented a case using Ranger as an example that mages will in the long run take over, because sooner or later no one will be able to make enough USD to keep pouring into their tank. The tank power is not exponential, its logarithmic. Mage power is linear. Thus, linear wins in the long run.

Someone asked earlier, where's the fun if tanks and mages are the same in the sense that they too need to spend? We need variation? Well, your answer lies in strategy.

Undertow May 21 2006 5:36 PM EDT

So, actually, we agree. I just didn't think super long term.

Although, it was brought up a long time ago that the shift would actually go Tank then mage then tank.

Tanks get the early advantage in CB life as they need USD to jump way ahead.

Then over time Mages take over as the upgrade points get too high.

But then, eventually, the CB2:USD ratio will fall out making CB2 cheap again, and tanks will re-rule the day.

I think that whether tanks or mages win may actually just depend more on the current USD:CB2 rate.

BTW, I'm agreeing with you, not argueing with you.

MrC [DodgingTheEvilForgeFees] May 21 2006 5:41 PM EDT

Tanks need NW.
Mages don't need any to do well.
These days NW=PR. Tanks are at a disadvantage.

It's unbalanced.
That's not to say that I don't think tanks have any hope. I think they're quite capable of succeeding in any level of the game.
But the question is, with two equally skilled players, one who chooses to run a tank strategy, the other chooses a mage... tanks don't stand a chance. My solution? Add in a lot of NW allowance, I mean for armor too.

Then again, I also think people with tank strategies are crying about nothing. I see an awful lot of strategies any half decent tank could tear appart. If you can't do well, rethink your strategy, maybe stop and forge for a while. It's entirely possible to do well whether you choose a mage, or a tank.

QBPixel Sage May 21 2006 5:54 PM EDT

My bad, Undertow =D. Forgive me!

Anywho, As Mr. Chuckles stated, whether or not a tank or mage is at top depends on CB:USD ratio. I still disagree with this, because sooner or later a tank can not make enough money to keep up with the exponential cost increase of upgrades. Ranger said, 4 mil just to add one point to his weapon. That's roughly $40 now. Simply, you need to spend too much money for too little of power increase.

My take on the issue lies on this. A mage and a tank who has no USD to spend should have equal opportunity to be as good as each other. Similarly, both with USD to spend should have equal opportunity as each other as well. Getting to the top should require more strategy and team composition than "Mage or Tank?". Either should be able to be chosen, and both should with a good strategy in both have ability to reach the upper ranks.

Zem loves Pretty Dotson May 21 2006 10:37 PM EDT

maybe someone said this, but what would be nice is if mages could cast more damage for there exp, but only during range rounds. have CoC be able to atk during the melee, but otherwise just have that said staff be able to hit during melee rounds, or if mage can hit during melee rounds, then make a random thing that one of your own team is hit for half the damage or something. maybe i burnt what you were baking, but i hope not.

QBPixel Sage May 21 2006 11:51 PM EDT

I'm not sure what you baked, but I couldn't understand what you were saying. Except for the part where magic damage should damage friendly minions. I think something like that already exists... fireball? =D

Anyways, that doesn't touch on the main issue... mage needs to have incentive to spend money!

LayWaste-[bA May 22 2006 12:18 AM EDT

Sure, you're right.. Mages do need incentive to spend money, but the only way that's going to help the situation is if we decrease the supremecy of DD spells and add items that are *almost required, just like tanks.. But as someone stated (I'm very sorry, but I'm too lazy to hit back) that would just take all the differences between the two fighting 'types' out.

QBPixel Sage May 22 2006 12:35 AM EDT

The difference of one needing CB and the other not needing it is not a variety that should exist. You know what the main difference SHOULD be? Strategy. You stated that giving mages more incentive to spend CB would take out "all" differences. No it wouldn't.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 22 2006 12:42 AM EDT

Mages need NW as much as tanks (I had 50 mil NW and couldn't touch most 4 minion teams at my pr, see chappy as another example), the tanks who are losing to low NW mage teams are not wearing enough armor. *clicking sound of record*

QBPixel Sage May 22 2006 12:56 AM EDT

Focus of topic: Mages need to start spending.

chelon May 22 2006 2:02 AM EDT

if u just count armor mage and tanks are about same. Difference is tank need weapons..

QBPixel Sage May 22 2006 2:05 AM EDT

If you just count armor tanks and mages are definitely not the same. Tanks use shields, mages do not. They wear different types of body armor. Also, you did mention that tanks need weapons. Realistically, they need two. And because the need to continually upgrade both weapons to keep their strength up, whereas mages do not, a large imbalance is present. And that, my friend, is a problem.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 22 2006 2:11 AM EDT

Pixel, the imbalance is only a one of perception, a ToA tank should have to spend like mad to beat a mage of equal power, he isn't wearing any armor (or next to none). There was a time before the stupidity of "walls" and "minitanks" that Heavy AC was used by tanks
who wanted to run mages over, because all mages can do is huge damage (well that and save $$$ for a real team), they take big damage back to themselves (which they have a hard time reducing, even with a ToE) and can't wear serious armor. Damage reduction becomes the name of the game when linear DD and single minions with huge attributes run rampant. PL on a wall is no replacement for real armor.

Flamey May 22 2006 2:20 AM EDT

I have read this, its making me want to change my tank to mage, i already said this! >< this is a little off-topic i think.

are we talking about 1 minion team tank vs mage?

Enchanters, ST, DX.

AS, AMF, GS, Haste, and your own natural training in ST and DX.

we say all mages need is exp? why not a 4 minion team, why not with a ToA?

please dont snap, just tell me.

QBPixel Sage May 22 2006 2:27 AM EDT

Sorry if I don't interpret what you wrote correctly, twas a bit run-on =P

Anyways, I propose two things. Mage damage should be reduced a bit, while the backlash from AMF should also be reduced. Adding more items to increase damage for mages would make them more inclined to spend more CB. AMF should probably be reduced with items as well, such as a hat or special body armor... er... clothing.

I believe mages should be qualified to be real teams (though I believe they are real enough, since I present a case where in the long-long run mages will take over). Someone stated they want variety, and that the need to be a tank that spends money versus a mage that spends none is the variety that is needed. However, if it is true that tanks will always rule the top, where's the variety in that? I say that reaching the upper ranks should depend on strategy that can be achieved by either mage or tank, and should be equally competitive between those who spend USD and equally competitive for those who do not. It should not just be "start as a mage, save up, get high MPR, then change to a tank."

QBPixel Sage May 22 2006 2:30 AM EDT

Flamey, we are not talking about the specific case you presented (1 minion team), but rather the imbalance that mages can spend next to no money, while tanks need to invest a buttload of money to get to the upper ranks. And why would a mage use a ToA?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] May 22 2006 2:33 AM EDT

consider I've promoted ideas for anti-amf items myself, I'm starting to wonder who I'm arguing with...

So how about this, A new item type that's only purpose is to be an addition/compound/multiplier to damage done (or spell level vrs AMF, or any other such thing). NW sink like you've never seen, and it keeps mages magey.

Flamey May 22 2006 2:36 AM EDT

Tank with the ToA, im just saying, all the things i proposed, cost nothing but time,except for the tattoo, which doesnt need USD,
dont get me wrong but you fight you get exp, tattoo's grow.

with all those things, you train exp, you make your tank stronger.

QBPixel Sage May 22 2006 3:01 AM EDT

@novice: Sure =D. I've got so many proposals, I should probably organize them into a simple list. Lower upgrade curve on +DD items with lessar effects, DDAccuracy, anti-AMF, blah blah...

@Flamey: To keep up with a mage, a tank needs not to only upgrade stats, but weapons. Tell me, how much time does it take to accumulate 4 mil? About a month if you're lucky. So in a year, Ranger can probably upgrade his weapon less than 12 points if he decides not to spend USD and spend all his CB on his weapon. Since tank damage depends on STR, DEX, and weaponry, taking out any one factor really nerfs the tank. Mages? Just smack on some AG's and CoI which you'll likely never upgrade to a certain point, and pour your exp into FB.

Dudley Dotson May 22 2006 6:34 AM EDT

Hmm To maximize upgrade cost we might need to make a mage shield that will up DD or maybe even HP. Lower the % on CoI..That's good. We need a DD body armor too like the TSA. A helm of the istari would be nice.
The + would be 0.2 the DD% maybe.

QBPixel Sage May 22 2006 10:31 AM EDT

Those are pretty much ideas that I presented earlier in the thread. I don't agree with the shield idea though. I've never seen a mage wear shields, and since shields are meant for blocking damage, it wouldn't make sense for a shield to amplify a mage's hit power.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] May 23 2006 11:39 AM EDT

I did a bit of thinking about CB balance a while ago and may contribute a few thoughts once I have read the rest of the posts, I will reply to a couple of the points you made now.

"However, my view of overpowering isn't based on training experience, its the money management. It seems lately that mages have a habit of spending maybe a few mil on what they need, then they start selling the rest of it because it becomes useless to them"

I think you have the motivation round the wrong way here, I believe its more a case of people starting off thinking "I want to sell my CB$ for real cash" and then taking the best route to that end. You have shown yourself that DB repay large investment very well (the upgrade curve is the same as the + curve for the big weapons I think) and if these mages were more interested in their characters they would all be pumping up DB.

"CB money has really been losing its value, since most by now realize they can get the same firepower as a tank by being a mage, only they don't have to spend money. I assume this issue was one of many that caused Ranger to lose interest in CB, along with a few others"

If you want to find the reason for CB$ to USD depreciation then look at the NUB, it drives away vets whilst providing an ever increasing supply of CB$ to the market. A mechanism like this is always likely to result in downward pressure on the CB$ to USD rate.

QBPixel Sage May 23 2006 1:58 PM EDT

Good points, Borlinder. I believe, however, that making a mage have a larger need to spend money will eliminate some of the USD for CB problems. As you progress upwards, you make more money per battle, especially when you hit the 7 BA refresh zone. Thus, if better equipment is required (not just focusing on DB's) to get the the top to actually make a good amount of money, mages would have to start spending more.

And just to touch on the DB issue, that is true. If mages cared so much about making a good character, they'd be spending on DB's. However, there's still an imbalance in the money spending. Tanks have their own DB's and two weapons to upgrade continually. Mages just have DB's that need investment.

Lastly, the NUB is surely a factor that contributes to deflation. One factor, that is. The other, as I argue, is that there are so many mages selling USD, largely because they don't have enough incentive to spend more. AG's, CoI, DB's to a decent level, then they're done.

Wasp [Superheros] May 23 2006 2:46 PM EDT

So you're telling me mages won't dump their extra cash into their AG's or CoI? If they have made their character in order to sell CB2, first choice will make it a mage. If they are a mage character because they want to get to the top as a mage, like myself, then they will dump their money into upgrading their own gear and BA. Take a look at the AG upgrade costs.. pretty steep eh. So either way, if a mage wants t obe the best s/he will have to dump their cash into the equipment that gives a bonus to DD, which gets pretty steep. In my opinion there is no imbalance. It just looks as if there is an imbalance because the people that sell their cash are mages. If you start bringing out and changing armour to make mages spend more money on their own gear, it wil lnot solve the problem, as the money sellers (mostly NUB users, multis) will not upgrade it.... Hopefully you can get a slight understanding of what i'm trying to say..!? I know what I mean anywho :P

QBPixel Sage May 23 2006 9:14 PM EDT

Wasp, I do understand what you're saying.

However, even I wanted to get high up in ranks with a mage (as many have done), but spending millions upon millions on +1% damage just isn't worth it. Not only is it not worth it, but it doesn't need to be done! Look at Cosmos for instance. His AG's are I think +14 only. There just simply isn't any more need to upgrade it, since spending EXP does enough for him.

Thus, introducing new items that in the end effect would cost millions more WOULD have an effect. Plus, as stated earlier, mages can get to the 7 BA refresh cap easily to make a lot more money, and they barely need to spend anything to get there in the first place.

Tanks, on the other hand, have two weapons that will always need upgrading. Spending experience on both DEX and STR won't cut it, unlike mages just spending on their DD.

Flamey May 24 2006 1:29 AM EDT

do UC tanks get included in the imbalance? they do have to dilute their exp but, don't need money to spend on their weapon, only ranged (which isn't as important).
they get to spend their money on the UC gear, HG, GI. and then their ranged weapon, but when you look at people's UC it gets a massive bonus, i think its something like having 200k UC, and with bonus to a 800k+ UC.

i have no idea about UC vs Mage

btw pixel i agree with they need more things to spend money on.

I don't know why people don't want to upgrade their stuff, I myself would love spending money to upgrade, just to have the best weapon etc.

this is a little off-topic, but wouldn't CB be hard to climb in MPR? for both mage and tank(mage at a very further point than tanks) idk, what the exp cost is for like 2 mil FB, or whatever but its gonna get hard to train, anything in the future, am I wrong?

QBPixel Sage May 24 2006 1:45 AM EDT

Hey Flamey. UC surely does not get 200k UC, haha. Maybe you meant 200? I'm not sure, but I still think that figure is quite high. As far as I know, there is no UC minion that has surpassed the upper ranks of weaponry.

But sure, they may be included in the imbalance. They are more or less in between, since they spend exp, and have the need to upgrade one weapon as opposed to 2. Of course, my main concern is the large gap of imbalance between tank and mage.

And to answer your question on why people don't want to upgrade, for two reasons. To sell the CB, or because it comes to a point where upgrading isn't necessary or worth it for mages. And I propose DD accuracy (DDA) to make mages have a need for spending, such as a wand or staff that helps with accuracy. Or a hat that helps prevent some AMF backlash.

Flamey May 24 2006 2:56 AM EDT

i agree with the DDA, and i meant 200k level, not effect.

i think independenz or Barzoo have the highest UC its around 110, effect, but thats where my examples cam from, they have about 200k trained level in UC, so, 800,000/200,000 (115).

chelon May 24 2006 7:03 AM EDT

i dont think u can get that many bonus for UC. armor give around 34UC. that rest from elven gear.. which is around 30-40%?
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