Score / PR / MPR: 3,001,890 / 1,226,311 / 814,812 (in General)
Are we seriously in for 3 months of this crap?
Thrasher
August 1 2006 1:19 PM EDT
lol
my gawd not another "overpowered" post please. look adapt and overcome. Someone finds a good strat for something and it's "overpowered" enough already.
VIVA LA TANKS
Maybe you should check the fight logs before posting.
I don't care how he gets there, he shouldn't be there.
Score / PR / MPR: 2,684,568 / 1,226,338 / 814,812
Is the up-to-date score.
Not sure where you got yours. There are going to be spikes and surges of score. Happens all the time. So what is it exactly you are saying, that he is doing too well and you do not like it?
Trust me when the mages were doing the same thing, I felt the same way, made the same posts, and got the same lack of sympathy.
Why should he not be there?
Seeing as Dawg has no ranged I imagine Tuffbunny or maybe Sutekh could do the same.
beating DAWG in two fights is only possible because his WALL is essentially useless, have had more than 75% of his armors NW negated, it's the same story with Ranger, without an broken item in play this crap doesn't happen.
DAWG: what is your prob... holly crap... what was the point of that junk...
The point? I just wanted to show my respect to the no.1 by raining free XP upon him :) But seriously, I just wanted to get over 3mil because I thought it might entertain me. And it did.
If it really bothers people so much, I won't do it again... at least not until I'm at an appropriate MPR to be doing such things in an acceptable fashion :)
again Nymandus, nothing you've done should bother anyone, I just see you as a wonderful QA guy who is willing to poke prod and break stuff...
I see what you are able to do as a problem, damage was increased without regard for the effects it would have on secondary abilities and it has caused serious issues with things up top. The only reason to have a huge weapon in the first place was to be able to chop through strong damage reduction, now with the VB in it's current state, there is no reason to spend cash on a melee weapon in the same way, because you'll be negating 40% of the DR of whatever you hit anyway.
Okay, this going to be really unpopular, but I was entertained by this too, (and I'm incorrigible):
Nymandus: Good answer! lol!
I think you should do it again Nymandus, it has lead to this;
Team 7 - Score / PR / MPR: 2,116,170 / 982,825 / 694,771 :)
Not that I care about score really, rewards are more my thing.
QBJohnnywas
August 1 2006 1:55 PM EDT
I understand completely the entertainment value of such thing Nymandus.....some people may not remember this
'far back'..........
From above mentioned thread:
Lemons, July 14 2005 11:23 AM EDT
Damn, I couldn't even beat him after 29 fights! =(
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 4 12:57 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:57 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:57 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:57 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:57 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:57 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:57 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:57 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:57 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:57 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 4 12:57 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:56 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:56 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:56 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:56 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:56 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:56 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:56 PM EDT
Brock Samson Nymandus (Templar Invictus) Nymandus 3 12:55 PM EDT
Gave up after only 19 attempts this time? I guess that resembles some sort of learning from past experiences... maybe.
I just have to say, congrats Nymandus! That's pretty seriously awesome!
someone with a brain needs to point me in the right direction to figure out what percentage of NW is negated by the VB as the AC gets higher
The VB is a counter to an otherwise "overpowered" strategy. By using a VB, Nymandus is opting for beating up teams that depend on high AC/ToEs to win and opting against receiving VA from a Morg or hitting low AC teams like a wild bull with a BONE.
His seeker arrows on the other hand..... :)
point me to the amount of decay necessary to totally negate all AC and take half of the wall's HP in one blow. If there is no AMF that would be base.
Again I do not get the point of railing against rock paper scissor just because his rock beats your scissor.
Tezmac
August 1 2006 2:37 PM EDT
"someone with a brain needs to point me in the right direction to figure out what percentage of NW is negated by the VB as the AC gets higher"
Probably around the same NW by someone with a pair of +100 DB vs a +170 MH...
QBRanger
August 1 2006 2:37 PM EDT
This has been done before as has been pointed out. I would think that he would have that score if it took him 3 or 4 battles to beat DAWG instead of the 2 it currently does.
Kudos to Nymandus for finding a bug in the game, or not a bug if it is what Jon truely wants. One weapon above all others. A score like that will never be that high for long as the vultures will see it and reel it into its proper place.
But lets wait will he uses some of that 20 million cb2 he is saving on upgrading that VB of his. Then we shall see some serious damage to heavy AC/TOE minions. More so than the 175k damage per hit I see now vs my AC 380 wall backed by an almost 2 million level TOE.
SSA: you and you're ilk need to pass the pipe...
The NW we've put into are armor is being negated for free, no matter how much we pump into it, the VB only negates a larger percentage of NW. This is stupid.
And the NW you decided to put into your High AC is somehow worth more than the XP I pump into the DD spells I've trained that are easily negated by Seekers and Mage Shields and TSAs and blown back in my face with AMF?
Y'all picked a strategy, Nymandus picked the only counter. Its not like he is unbeatable, he's just unbeatable to teams that rely too heavily on huge AC. As sefton said, its rock paper scissors, and he cuts through your defense like paper.
you have to pump NW into a TSA/MgS, or XP into AMF. Nothing similar is going on with the VB.
BTW, that strat "we" picked, includes anyone wearing armor, or a ToE, or using prot...so only about 75% of the chars in game...
While I was double tapping Krang, I noticed that I was receiving quite a bit more XP than the battle summary stated. Anyone know anything about this? I should have documented it when I had the chance, but doing so now would require me to awaken the wrath of Krang once more.
Anyways, without actually stating many specific numbers other than totals, here's what happened: I fought Krang 43 times, with 13 wins and 7 draws. Victories gave me maybe 100-120 XP, losses gave maybe 0-30 XP, and I don't remember what the draws gave. I received no other XP from defending, and yet after the 43 battles, I had ~4,500 XP. After one double tap (one loss, one win), I compared my previous XP to my new XP, and it was a 282 XP difference.
Am I missing something here? Like hidden bonuses for being in the top 10? I'm aware of the removal of the reward penalty, but this seems like a bug.
QBsutekh137
August 1 2006 3:00 PM EDT
The VB isn't _only_ good at erasing AC...it is alsy a very decent one-handed weapon. That is novice's point.
MgS, TSA, AMF...those are all _specific_. Mages don't whine about those things because anyone who uses them foregos AC and other enchantments, and probably can't use DM.
novice's point is that that the VB has this power ostensible "for free" -- i.e. lack of downside.
The thing I still am not understanding, then, is why VBs aren't becoming more popular? At some point the proof needs to start turning into pudding for these types of posts to really have meaning.
Oh, so I can just go ahead and buy a VB and strap it on my enchanter and I should be cutting through walls in no time. GREAT!
The VB discounts a certain % of AC. But its not going to hurt without a bunch of NW behind it. More NW than is needed to block 30% of my FB (or 6 million XP) with a Mage shield, for instance. The bigger my FB gets, the more XP the mage shield renders useless... all for the same NW.
The VB isn't the problem, the general amount of damage weapons are doing (with no addition to PR) is the problem. You are just whining incessantly about a single symptom.
QBsutekh137
August 1 2006 3:07 PM EDT
For the record, I don't think novice is "whining incessantly". If you don't want to hear "whining", why read? He isn't "whining" about you, is he?
That's like me saying there are too many FS posts! PLEASE STOP!!!!!! I can't keep up with all of them!!!!
BL was right, I can do the same to Krang if I strap on Fred. Of course, my total PR is 1,878,224 in that case, about 50% more than Nymandus, and it still take me two battles. I would wager that son of Lorhar could do it in one, since he has DM and a larger SF.
Wow, Sut, when did you end up with Fred? :)
QBsutekh137
August 1 2006 3:09 PM EDT
Nymandus, are you sure that wasn't 100-120 per minion? I got 227 experience when I beat Krang on a second try, and that was with a way higher PR than yours and no bonus...?
I'm going to make a new thread from my previous post, as it might get lost in all of this incessant whining :)
QBsutekh137
August 1 2006 3:10 PM EDT
Barzoo, it is a long and sordid affair having everything to do with a wonderful person named colonel. *smile* Sorry, but Fred will be renamed to a different Eternal Spirit once I decide on something else to name with it...
ya know i was gonna rehash the argument about upgrades for the + being the same and VB being a Supporter Item so there is a set number of them but its all just a waste here. Nym has used something to its fullest potential that no one has used it like that before so it must be "overpowered". Bah enough whining some one find away to beat him instead of whining that he can beat you.
until then, VIVA LA TANKS
Sorry, I should have specified: All XP figures posted are per minion
What I can't understand is the idea that the VB isn't broken, is there any other item that has an ability like it? If an MgS added to armor, and flatly reduced 40% of a minions DD spell would anyone question it being busted? if the AX reduced a flat 40% of dex or the ex a flat 40% of str, no one would question it. Why is damage reduction (of ANY sort) chosen to get the shortest end of the stick?
I assume you skipped right over decay, because I am right, it does WAY more than any VB could do, but yet no one cries it is over powered.
The downside to the VB is that attacks against non-ac'd minions is lower than the other big 4 weapons. OK the base is one different on the BTh, but 20% un-nerfable VA makes a HUGE difference when they use BL and pump up the X. Makes all my DM trained do nothing to protect from:
Joe Strummer pulverized Sefton with London Calling [161396]
Joe Strummer draws strength from his weapon! [23629]
P.S. here is my attacks on him
Sefton gashed Joe Strummer with Slice (named VB) [50388]
So BL, BTh un-nerfable VA is over-powered because I cannot beat Johnnywas.
And, to mention Sut's excellent point, if the VB is all that how come this is the Item Overview for the VB
Vorpal Blade 208 $1,866,835 $-1,111,753
Here is the much maligned BoNE
Blacksword of Nan Elmoth 66 $4,701,686 $-76,118
AND, we know a couple of things. There will never be more VB's and the will be less of them (Central Bank buys and destroys them, check for yourself it has happened recently)
Also, it is one thing to say, WHEN someone wants to dump 20 million NW into their VB it WILL be over powered, it is another thing for it to actually HAPPEN and then say it is.
Lastly, my RoE fueled mage NOW has 1,133,895 / 579,725 / 579,725.
Before the change the score was at least 200K + higher, and when he had my big ToE and my DB's it was even higher than that. So, again, I do not see a problem. I see a good strat with good application. And if he goes all out on Tanks he is likely more vulnearable to mages, specifically AoI protected Decay (train decay like you train FB) with maybe a CoC minion and a MM mage for good measure.
Rock, Paper, Scissors
Another P.S. I have to admit I see this, "Are we seriously in for 3 months of this crap?" as non-constructive whining, not logic fueled discussion.
I'm a big fan of decay, properly applied it was the best key to the AC puzzle, now however the VB has stepped in as a vastly more effective can opener, you in no way dealt with the issue of the vbs ability being malformed compared to other abilities weapons have. I'm not saying my stupid post was anything constructive, but you folks are as always still conversing in it's wake are you not?
I have the unique ability to converse in posts that are logic fueled discussions as well as whinny ones. So thus my posts. I did not say do not make the post, I was simply saying in my opinion the post was more of a whine than anything, someone was cut down for saying something similar with less tact, and I wanted to say I was on their side of the fence.
The BoNE speaks for itself, without a serious upgrade to its base damage, then it will always be the last weapon chosen.
Un-nerfable VA is immensly powerful when properly applied, from both the Morg and Bth, and is easily equal to negating some AC.
The ELS is sort of the red-headed step child. The bonuses to one handed weapons, when properly leveraged can be pretty great. How do you leverage that? Spend LESS on + and more on X than you would on your Bth, poof it is levered.
VA can keep you alive EVEN when your opponent kills you, this is very powerful.
Let us say this as bluntly as possible and perhaps cut through all the verbage.
Jon does NOT want (and neither do I) you to be able to simply pour all your money into AC and suddenly be invulnearable. If you did not learn this lesson from that which was CB1 and is now CB2, then you are learning it now.
Jon does NOT want (and neither do I) you to be able to pour all your money into your elbow and suddenly be unbeatable, thus all the melee penalties for ranged in melee. If you did not learn this lesson from that which was CB1 and is now CB2, you are learning it now.
Jon does NOT want (and neither do I) you to be able to say because I started a year before you, you have no chance of ever catching or beating me, thus NUB and NCB. If you did not learn this lesson from that which was CB1 and is now CB2, you are learning it now.
Jon learned from CB1, did you?
P.S. as SOON as you apply enough AC to be practically invulnearable, watch for more nerfs coming to a theater near you.
You still haven't answered the question seft...
How can you justify what is essentially a negation of what will eventually be 90% of hundreds of millions of CB for FREE, no pr increase, no NW needing to be added (which is how dbs work) to combat the AC, just 40% flat off the top. It's obscene for you to tell me that it's a needed part of the ro-sham-bo game were supposed to have.
QBRanger
August 1 2006 4:30 PM EDT
The Lega using a MH-Carsomyr [84x2900] (+120) worth $46,855,257, with str 920,000 doing this to my AC 380 wall in melee: 20 / 20 / 14,577
Nynamdus using a VB-The Reaver [75x1260] (+60) worth $14,939,512 with str 1,049,000 doing this to the same wall in melee: 6 / 6 / 168,276
C'Mon.
There are easy reasons people have not yet made massive VB's.
They include:
1) Fear. That when Jon realizes how out of line the VB is, he will make it in line with other melee weapons, therefore perhaps making their investment in the VB less valuable.
2) The new changes to melee upgrades. Before the recent change it was too expensive to upgrade a VB to what was needed at this stage of the game. Now that is not so, the upgrades to a VB is just a bit more than that of the top 4 weapons.
3) The old guard. They already have over 75M spent on their weapon of choice, the MH. Instead of admitting defeat and starting anew with another weapon, they will keep upgrading their MH's or hope the VB is given the nerf it richly deserves.
So I trained 400mil EXP into DM, and yet your Morg + BL combo STILL keeps you in enough HP to beat me. The VB might negate hundreds of millions of dollars of CB2, but guess what I win the lottery, and I can do that for "free" too. The Morg/Bth negates my 400mil DM, which took me only time. You cannot buy your time. So Un-nerfable VA with BL is impossible to negate, the fact that I am rich and can spend money like water is negatable, I am OK with that.
Seems like the same thing to me, just you spent USD I spent time.
Nothing is free. Against anything BUT massive AC the VB is second rate at best. Don't believe me? Try trading your named Morg/Bth for a VB of equal power then tell me you beat a LOT more opponents. You might be different ones, but not more of them.
QBsutekh137
August 1 2006 4:35 PM EDT
Can I see evidence of VBs being destroyed? That's not a very pleasant thought...the item I paid hard cash for eventually being completely removed from the game? Thereby making it all the MORE powerful for those remaining? That doesn't seem to make sense?
QBRanger
August 1 2006 4:35 PM EDT
'Jon does NOT want (and neither do I) you to be able to simply pour all your money into AC and suddenly be invulnearable. If you did not learn this lesson from that which was CB1 and is now CB2, then you are learning it now. '
Certainly I agree with you Sefton.
However, do we want a 14M NW VB doing 175k damage to one of the heaviest armored minions in the game, backed by one of the highest TOE's in the game--PER HIT?
Then we are talking about why even bother to use armor. Imagine when someone has the guts to make a x3000 VB and put it on a minion with 1M str. Then my massive wall, all 380 AC backed by a 2M TOE will die in 1 round. Even now, vs Krang with his massive MH and 2M strength my wall lives for 3 rounds possibly 4.
We need a name for this phenomenon that happens when a newcomer appears, seemingly from nowhere, becomes a dominating player, and that dominance fuels incessant calls for game changes.
A little over year ago, it was Mikel, and it fueled calls for NUB changes. (At least he's still here - good onya, Mikel!)
Then came Kitty, again with the NUB issues. Holy cow, that was brutal, but we finally got some NUB changes, and the NCB...
Then it was Cosmos, and again with the NUB issues, but we got another fix, and haven't really had much NUB controversies since Cosmos left and Ranger bought his character...
Now we have Nymandus, and it's weapon damage/NW/VBs. Good luck, Nymandus, I hope you stick around for a long while!
What's my point? I don't know - I just suddenly had this observation, and wanted to share it. Maybe it's to defend the merits of logical discussion? Or to defend incessant whining? I don't know, as I'm not really a fan of "this is overpowered" discussions...
There is no way to have a PR representation of the VBs ability, as it's power grows exponentially with the AC/End/Prot of the opponent, this to me is a key sign that it needs a revamp. I wouldn't even mind if at the top end it had a greater then 40% reduction in opponents protection, just as long as you had to actually put NW into the weapon to get there. If you're so worried about the Morg I think a similar treatment for it's VA ability could be figured out. I'm still waiting for your answer concerning you thoughts on people at less than half the mpr taking on and defeating teams with what would have formerly been seen as a good general defense. I do not want heavy AC to be the be all end all of things, but I'd like it to continue to have a part in the end game of cb.
Most interesting is my damage to Krang's wall...
No ToE involved here, just my (rented) 388 AC
--
Nymandus gashed Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with The Reaver [208277]
Thane Keeper Cleric absorbs damage [393]
Nymandus clove Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with The Reaver [192791]
Thane Keeper Cleric absorbs damage [4]
Nymandus's The Reaver went snicker-snack! [214951]
R.I.P. Cephas Keken Maug Fighter, Thane Keeper Cleric
Nymandus carved into Ralphus Aasimar Cleric with The Reaver [296367]
Nymandus's The Reaver went snicker-snack! [320319]
Nymandus's The Reaver went snicker-snack! [296218]
R.I.P. Ralphus Aasimar Cleric
Nymandus clove Eustace Human Cleric with The Reaver [354608]
Nymandus's The Reaver went snicker-snack! [338686]
Nymandus's The Reaver went snicker-snack! [397797]
--
Zorba glanced off of Cephas Keken Maug Fighter [8800]
Thane Keeper Cleric absorbs damage [8800]
Thoth takes damage from his own Decay (4156)!
Thoth's Decay hit Cephas Keken Maug Fighter for no damage
Anubis crunched Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with MijØlnər [172844]
Thane Keeper Cleric absorbs damage [95272]
Anubis draws strength from his weapon! [15514]
Anubis fractured Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with MijØlnər [127452]
Thane Keeper Cleric absorbs damage [95272]
Anubis draws strength from his weapon! [6436]
Anubis crunched Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with MijØlnər [211919]
Thane Keeper Cleric absorbs damage [95272]
Anubis draws strength from his weapon! [23329]
Anubis fractured Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with MijØlnər [210386]
Thane Keeper Cleric absorbs damage [95272]
Anubis draws strength from his weapon! [23022]
Cephas Keken Maug Fighter tapped Zorba with Devastation Hammer [31381]
Hades absorbs damage [31381]
Cephas Keken Maug Fighter tapped Zorba with Devastation Hammer [59200]
Hades absorbs damage [59200]
Cephas Keken Maug Fighter bruised Zorba with Devastation Hammer [60100]
Hades absorbs damage [60100]
Zorba scratched Cephas Keken Maug Fighter [5745]
Thane Keeper Cleric absorbs damage [5745]
Thoth takes damage from his own Decay (3325)!
Thoth's Decay hit Cephas Keken Maug Fighter for no damage
Anubis crunched Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with MijØlnər [206932]
Thane Keeper Cleric absorbs damage [95272]
Anubis draws strength from his weapon! [22332]
Anubis crushed Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with MijØlnər [258843]
Anubis draws strength from his weapon! [40720]
Anubis pulverized Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with MijØlnər [280259]
Anubis crushed Cephas Keken Maug Fighter with MijØlnər [295470]
Anubis cries "WOOF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
R.I.P. Cephas Keken Maug Fighter
---
Ranger, now post how those two weapons do against a no AC having mage. Are they reversed? Im not surprised. Nor am I bothered, seems like it is as it should be.
No one here I hope is suggesting they can achieve the insane NW on armors that exist at the top, from fighthing. I used to say I could keep up when there was camping, now there isn't so there is NO way to do it.
I really wish I could just be so rich that I made $100,000 USD a day, so I could spend $100,000 USD on CB and make my AC 600 (this would effectively make me invulnearable to magic and physical because armor base does not protect from magic). With my X100,000 +500 Morg and my 600 AC I could beat your 1mil MPR with my 10K MPR, or at least stalemate you. I wonder if anyone would listen to me complain about the VB then?
This is not a who can spend the most money game. I am glad there are items capable of making large USD investments less attractive.
Maybe we should just remove the top 10 exemption from fighting down. Then I would be much more sympathetic to watching armor NW being negated by a VB.
Bitter? Yes a little, now that there is no camping, I have no way to compete with large USD spenders, wait, maybe I do, it is called a VB.
I've spent a couple hundred $US, but that doesn't near cover what I funneled away to CB1, I took the bargin bin route to this AC, so it's VERY feasable, thank you VERY much.
Tell that to a 13 year old.
BootyGod
August 1 2006 5:15 PM EDT
petty arguments will get none of you anywhere. Follow the advice edyit gave it the beginning. Add decay and GA to your strats and, BAM. No more Nymandus... Hopefully rofl.
QBRanger
August 1 2006 5:18 PM EDT
The Lega using a MH-Carsomyr [84x2900] (+120) worth $46,855,257, with str 920,000 doing this to my AC 0 minion in melee (I removed all armor from my wall for this test):
Gera crushed Prophecies with Carsomyr [461537]
Gera draws strength from his weapon! [22222]
Gera crushed Prophecies with Carsomyr [378601]
Gera crushed Prophecies with Carsomyr [450532]
Nynamdus using a VB-The Reaver [75x1260] (+60) worth $14,939,512 with str 1,049,000 doing this to the same minion in melee:
Nymandus's The Reaver went snicker-snack! [403121]
Nymandus's The Reaver went snicker-snack! [347404]
Nymandus's The Reaver went snicker-snack! [320203]
For both I unequipped my TOE.
Wow, the VB is such a crappy weapon vs 0 AC minions....
BootyGod
August 1 2006 5:18 PM EDT
GA= DM oops.
BootyGod
August 1 2006 5:22 PM EDT
Lower the base, lower the base, lower the base, lower the base. This is not a complicated or deep issue. Lower the base. Sorry, but not worth multiple threads with hundreds of responses between them when the solution is, technically, so easy. Just be patient. The axbow waited longer.
What I do not get Ranger is:
Gera crushed Prophecies with Carsomyr [461537]
Gera draws strength from his weapon! [22222]
If the VA on the MH was working at .2 it would draw 92,307 HP back, which would make the MH much more attractive, considering, if it could draw all it could draw:
Gera crushed Prophecies with Carsomyr [378601] would gain 75,720
And
Gera crushed Prophecies with Carsomyr [450532] would gain 90,106
so the MH could potentially ADD 258,133 HP to the tank while subtracting 1,290,670
Whereas the VB subtracts 1,070,728 so the actual difference in HP affected would not be simply the 219,942 you point out, but instead be 478,075, more than double what your post showed.
It is not the MH's fault the defending minion does not have enough HP to make it work properly, and perhaps shows that so much NW on the MH is wasted, but not that the VB is over powered.
And I will add, that HP BACK the to tank SHOULD be weighted higher than 1 to 1 on damage inflicted on a single minion, because the tank can use the gained HP to fend off attacks from any and all minions, not just the one he is attacking.
will someone with a 15 mil NW BoNE and around a mil STR please lend a hand...
BootyGod
August 1 2006 5:49 PM EDT
Not true Sefton. Hp added on to you is LESS important mainly because tanks do so much damage in a hit. A Vb is overpowered for many reasons, but one is because that it can deal so much damage, that the leech weapons can't come close to keeping up, and the BoNE and ELS don't do enough damage.
If you want to show the BoNE is underpowered, do not bother. It is woefully obvious.
Vorpal Blade 208 $1,866,835 $-1,111,753
Morgul-Hammer 70 $16,925,406 $1,614,136
Blade of Thuringwethil 60 $5,064,073 $699,644
Blacksword of Nan Elmoth 66 $4,701,686 $-76,118
Elven Long Sword 49 $2,678,095 $493,649
Executioner's Sword 250 $538,049 $-6,205
Katana 558 $486,108 $-117,457
And exec has better Average Price to NW than a BoNE, and there are almost 4 times as many. Shoot the Katana comes close and there are close to 8 times as many of them.
QBRanger
August 1 2006 5:53 PM EDT
Sefton,
So a 14M VB vs a 0 AC minion does just over 1 million in net damage.
A 46M MH vs that same minion does just over 1.5 million in net damage (damage done plus hp leeched)
So your telling me you would not give up that much less damage for the ability to do 10x as much damage vs TOE walls?
C'Mon.
GW, please, are you trying to tell me, that having a minion die because it doesn't have HP is better than having him live because he does?
All I need is one more round or two on Johnnywas, and I would win, but he gets those extra rounds because of him leeching HP from my stupid enchanters because my stupid PL protects them as much as it does the ToA tank which is all I really want protected.
The value of HP back is at least 2 to 1 on damage inflicted, if not more. Try beating someone close to your PR with un-nerfable VA and tell me it is wasted.
P.S. if Johnnywas used a VB against me instead of a MH I would crush him.
Ranger, how much exp must I train to get from str 920,000 to str 1,049,000.
The difference is 129,000. Since I do not know the costs anymore at such stratospheric levels, I will assume a CONSERVATIVE 14 per point.
That is 1,806,000 exp. If the minion earns lets say for ease of calucation, 100 per fight per win, then it would take 18,060 fights to achieve that gap.
If someone earns lets say 160 BA x 4 a day, that is 640 BA a day. Assuming he wins every BA spent fighting it would take 28+ days to earn the gap. So lets account for some variations in exp earned per fight and cut the time in half or effectively double the amount of exp earned per minion, still over 2 weeks.
I would HOPE that is affecting your test some.
:D Wow this thread exploded.
I think the major point is this;
If you use a VB on a minion with no damage reduction, it acts like a normal bog standard 1 handed wepaon of it's size. Slightly larger than a Katana, less than an ELS. It does slightly more damage than the Kat and less (as you would expect) than the ELS. Nothing wrong here. There will always be wepaons of a larger base able to do more damage than it, of equal stats. Nothing wrong here.
Add damage reduction (whether AC/Endurance or Protection), and it starts to outpace the other weapons around it, for nothing. No extra NW cost, no extra PR cost. Until, (weapon size is irrelevant) it is the best weapon in the game, as it can cause the most damage. For free.
For no drawback or cost. Other than there are a couple of weapons that can do more damage when you face Minions with no damage reduction.
Everything else is expense versus expsense. XP versus XP for DD versus AMF. XP versus NW for DD versus MgS/TSA. XP versus NW for Str/Dex versus E/AXBow.
The VB reduces the NW of armour for nothing. No cost, No PR, nothing. The damage capability of the wepaon is no factor. Have a base VB and you will do crap damage versus zero AC. You will still do crap damage versus high AC, but for nothing, you've negated 40% of the high NW used to boost that AC.
Decay Ignores damage reduction. But faces AMF. Leave your decay at base, and AMF will hinder your base Decay expense. To stand versus the XP cost of AMF, you have to put your own XP cost into Decay. expeniture versus expenditure.
OK, but what about DBs? They work versus the PTH of a wepaon, that's thier thing. Granted, you ca't do damage if you don't hit, but their expenditure does nothing to reduce the AC reduction of the VB, if it does hit. Nothing does.
That is my complaint.
And the same holds true for the VA weapons as well.
I don;t mind how it's sorted, but add a cost to the specials. Be it n increased PR or tie the special to a weapon stat, like the special crossbows. Maybe even pth for the VB. And lessen the amount of armoru bypassed if DBs reduce the pth by an amount.
Just give it a cost.
QBRanger
August 1 2006 6:21 PM EDT
Sefton,
Assuming the normal thought of 4x str is 2x damage, the difference between 900k and 1.1M is very small. I am using those as a high and low str for comparison sake.
We are talking about a difference of about 6% more damage for the minion with 1.1 M strength.
Also in your calculation on the battles it takes to get from 900k to 1.1M str you fail to count the NUB. In addition you fail to count xp time when most NUB's buy their BA if they are not selling cb2.
"Maybe we should just remove the top 10 exemption from fighting down. Then I would be much more sympathetic to watching armor NW being negated by a VB."
I've been asking for that for what seems like forever. ;)
I'm sure no one wants to hear my suggestions for making the top earn the least XP out of everyone, allowing anyone to catch them, without requiring any sort of 'bonus', again. ;)
QBRanger
August 1 2006 6:23 PM EDT
GL,
Very very well said, especially the first paragraph. I have been trying to get people to understand that fact from the beginning. The VB is still a great weapon vs 0 AC/non TOE minions. It is just freaking outstanding vs Heavy AC/TOE minions as well.
Thanks Ranger! Sorry for the spelling mistakes. ;)
An obligatory MgS comparison.
How would you all feel if the MgS, as purchased (+0), as standard reduced DD by 40%. You would then be able to up it's plus to add AC.
That makes it more comparable to a VB than the way it is now.
Oh and of course remove the crippling restrictions it has. So you can use it with a tattoo and train spells on that minion.
Then it would be comparable to a VB...
I would like to see a 'power weapon' category, with the same restrictions as power shields. Stick all the specials in there, Morg, BTh, VB, AXBow and EXBow. Oh and seekers.
I tell you I love this selective debating stuff, but in the end it is less effective.
GL, you say for nothing, I say I GET extra damage against AC in exchange for not getting back HP from un-nerfable VA. I would LIKE to say I get extra damage against AC in exchange for a lower base (comparing to a BoNE) but the BoNE is already woefully underpowered. So if that is your point, the BoNE and ELS need a boost, I agree.
The drawback is in terms of this or that. This I do more damage to high AC or that I get a bunch of HP back that lets me keep fighthing.
Ranger, are you railing against the VB or the NUB. First you assume that a person with the NUB is capable of making these finely tuned strategic decisions. Second, if I buy BA (and have no USD investment) then yes I get more ST faster, but then have to bump my gear less, a trade off I call a wash.
Regardless, I would bet, and I could be wrong, but I bet, Jon factors in the cost of ST with some sort of averaging effect. If your ST is higher than average it has more weight on the damage formula, and if the difference is only relative in terms of greater than average, then the 129K difference could be considerable. Regardless, without a published damage formula for weapons, then any variance in damage could be applied to variances in ST vs. variances in NW.
It is one thing to say, in this fight VB is the obvious maybe over powered choice. Even then there are variables to consider, but once you ask it to be applied to ALL fights, I ask for rigourous control of the variables (because of the absence of a formula) in order to make the data valid for ALL fights.
QBJohnnywas
August 1 2006 6:51 PM EDT
A 'power weapon' category would be a direct nerf on the ToA. No point in having one if you can't use weapons at the same time.
You could use your BoNE or ELS with it.....
"GL, you say for nothing, I say I GET extra damage against AC in exchange for not getting back HP from un-nerfable VA. I would LIKE to say I get extra damage against AC in exchange for a lower base (comparing to a BoNE) but the BoNE is already woefully underpowered. So if that is your point, the BoNE and ELS need a boost, I agree.
The drawback is in terms of this or that. This I do more damage to high AC or that I get a bunch of HP back that lets me keep fighthing."
:) Sef, I lump the VA wepaons in with the VB. ;) They also get a 'special' that is for free.
But, I would like to say one thing. Your leech is based on the damage you do. Having leech on a wepaon facing a high damage reduction is nearly useless.
But having AC reduction on a no AC enchanter is worthless whereas the leeching effect will do a lot.
This and that.
Yes the VB is probably a little too good right now, I expect a tweak next change month. Yes using one as opposed to other weapons has a meaningful downside in certain situations.
{Quitter}Gah
August 1 2006 7:15 PM EDT
Make VB 30x and 100% AC reduction ;)
"Yes using one as opposed to other weapons has a meaningful downside in certain situations."
And what's that BL? Using one isntead of a BTh or Morg means you don't get leech on no AC minions, but that's about it.
It has no downside (if you ignore the natural state of larger wepaons doing larger damage) when compared to any other melee weapon.
"But having AC reduction on a no AC enchanter is worthless whereas the leeching effect will do a lot.
This and that."
Again Sef, you're comparing 'special' versus 'special'. My point is, so? They're both situational specials, you get for free.
But these three beat every other weapon for usefulness hands down.
Ignore the two VA weapons for a sec, what about VB versus Katana? Or ELS?
(Also, if you want to go back to the specials, the VA leech can be obtained from a spell - even if it can be countered by DM, you still have the option to use it in some situations. The AC reduction can not be applied to another weapon at all. You can use VA with a VB, but you can't make a Morg ignore 40% AC.)
QBRanger
August 1 2006 8:07 PM EDT
Borderliner:
What is the meaningful downside of the VB? I am still waiting for someone to show me one. It is a great weapon, better than a katana, almost as good as an ELS vs low AC minions and has no peer vs high AC/TOE minions. And 1 handed to boot.
A lower base damage? Who cares when your doing almost as much as an ELS and more than a Bth?
You can replicate the VA ability of the MH or Bth with a ROS and VA spell.
With the VB in play as it is, AC and a TOE are effectively lowered. Imagine a weapon or item that nerfs the TOA by 40%, or an item that nerfs a spell casting familiar by 40%, or makes a ROS 40% less effective? That is precisely what the VB does. AND its a very good weapon vs all other types of minions/characters.
Sefton,
My opinions on the NUB is well known. I was saying that the strength you were quoting can be gotten by a NUB character far quicker than the 28+ days you were quoting. THis is in no way an anti-NUB post. NUB's have a large advanatage in that they can see all the mistakes us older characters have made and not make them themselves. In this case, using a VB instead of a MH as us older characters do.
Ok Ranger how abut single ToA tank versus single ToA tank, what do you want VB or BTH? I agree the VB has got a great boost from the change to linear x upgrade and that it will probably be tweaked. I don't agree that it is the best weapon in all circumstances. I wish CT were here to do us a + curve comparison. I would add that I believe the high AC/ToE/PL minion combo is probably too good right now and I hope to see the VB retain a % effect to offset this.
QBRanger
August 1 2006 8:35 PM EDT
Well personally I would like a VB over a Bth on a single TOA tank vs another TOA tank. Most ToA tanks (and there are less than a few months ago) have an AC over 80, some close to 100.
I would take the VB since it will be great vs TOE teams and still do the job vs a TOA tank team. IMO, it is the best all purpose weapon.
But seriously, how many single TOA tanks are there out there?
Ranger: You can replicate the VA ability of the MH or Bth with a ROS and VA spell.
but you lose that additional 20% vs, possibility of using a ToA or ToE, and RoS doesnt protects vs dm as much any more, so it still doesnt help vs a sufficiently large dm.
Ranger: Imagine a weapon or item that nerfs the TOA by 40%, or an item that nerfs a spell casting familiar by 40%, or makes a ROS 40% less effective? That is precisely what the VB does.
What about st reduced by less than half by an exbow, or the same for dx. Also, what about AC? Reduces ALL weapons except vb by a large amount. quite a few people have ~400 AC. Thats ~84% physical dmg reduction and ~50-55% DD reduction, without prot or ToE. how could you possibly consider that any more fair than what the vb does when the vb is only 40%. AC needs some weakness, and no, decay doesnt count, way too many ways around it.
"The AC reduction can not be applied to another weapon" hmmm i thought Decay ignored _everything_ but AMF and it never misses, Decay and an AoI might be the next "overpowered" strat.
Misfit
August 1 2006 9:20 PM EDT
Not with seekers ignoring AoI as it is now.
GL, basically if you want all "special" weapons nerfed, that is one thing, but asking for just the VB is another. As I have shown and you have capitulated, the special ability of the VA leechers is about the same as the AC reduction from the VB. I agree. But why nerf them? Why not raise up the BoNE and the ELS?
And another thing GL, lets say suddenly the ELS and BoNE get something special, I do not know what, but something then it will be these 5 weapons beat all others. Yes they do I am pretty sure that is intentional.
Yes Ranger I apologize, that was a little too harsh. What I was trying to say, is yah sure if you count the NUB in the equation it changes, I know that, you know that, but they are the exception not the rule, and you cannot make decent arguments talking about exceptions.
In the end, in my personal opinion, and it is ONLY my opinion, but this rage against the VB is fueled by people who have spent lots of USD on stuff and now that stuff is not nearly as effective as they think it should be.
So I will pose this question. If I could spend infinite amounts of USD and get my AC up to 600, should I just win automatically against everyone? You say wait there is a counter, Decay, but wait no there is not you cannot kill me with Decay, and you cannot hurt me with anything physical or magical, so I win. No effort, no thought, no strat, just pure I got too much money and spent it on CB now I win you lose. Is that what we want?
Or look at it another way, what, besides Decay and the VB is the counter to massive AC? Take away the VB and poof now there is only Decay, and you can never kill with Decay. I like having to think about how to beat my opponent and I LIKE the fact that no matter how much USD I spend on this game it wont assure me victory. Keep that balance and nerf the VB and perhaps I will go a long with it.
Otherwise all I see is, man I spent all the USD and I still cant beat everyone no fair. I am sorry if that is cruel.
Who is asking for the VB to be removed? Even I gave up those dreams long ago. I'm talking about a fair amount of balance being applied to a weapon that has an ability that doesn't have an equal in game. Your contention that the HP drain abilities just falls short with me, there isn't a comparison, not unless the Morg negated 40% of a minions HP off the bat. Make the VB's AC negation dependent on the X of the weapon and I shut up forever.
Well now I like that. Ideas to fix the problem. Keep firing them. One might stick. Do not put it in a bunch of why, we did that, now pop out solutions. Ones you can live with. The more you think of the better your chances.
If you cannot live with a simple base reduction, don't put it. If you can with increased PR representation, then do.
Next time, skip this part, "Are we seriously in for 3 months of this crap?"
go right to this part
"Make the VB's AC negation dependent on the X of the weapon"
And you will get a lot less non sense from me at the very least.
Wasn't just the VB Sef, but the VB is the focus of this thread. ;)
And I gave some examples of how I'd like things changed, the details I'm sure Jon could work out better than I.
My ideas;
1) Increase the PR special weapons give, to relect thier increased 'power' over every other type of weapon.
2) Tie the special to a wepaon stat, like the special crossbows, so they don't provide a fixed bonus for free.
3) Create a 'Power Weapon' catergory, with the same restrictions as the power shield one, and put all special weapons and ammo into it.
Sef, the scalling cost of AC is there to make it nigh impossible to get 400AC. Sure given unlimited cash, you could get an invulnerable 600AC, but then you've borken the game, as it isn't balanced around the ability of somone to spend unlimited cash. That happens, I expect things to change.
edyit;
"The AC reduction can not be applied to another weapon" hmmm i thought Decay ignored _everything_ but AMF and it never misses, Decay and an AoI might be the next "overpowered" strat.
Sorry, you miss the point of my statement.
Decay is an attack in it's own right. It's property of ignoring AC *cannot* be applied to a melee attack. The Morg/BTh leech can.
Decay has it's own restrictions, for the *specific* power it weilds. First, it cannot kill. That's a major one. Secondly, it has a cost versus cost relationship to AMF.
why are you so intent on nerfing tanks gl?
1.) no other damage dealing things(such as dd) get extra pr for their special powers. increasing the amount they count towards weapon allowance is one thing, but making them outright add pr is another.
2.) people are already complaining about the vb, but they have to realize its also being limited by the static AC reduction. if its changed based on x, how long until some usd spender gets a high enough x that it ignores everything.
3.) you want it so you cant use 'power weapons' and tattoos?
As long as they had to spend some cash to get there, I don't mind if a VB eventually has a much greater than 40% negation of AC. It's ends the fact there are 200+ items with a flat 40% reduction in AC right now.
"why are you so intent on nerfing tanks gl?"
It's not about nerfing tanks Pit, but allowing more strategy. Whenone thing gets so much more powerful/better/more useful than anything else in the game, be it FB+DM or ToA+VB (whatever), it lowers strategy, which ruins CB.
Don't forget, I was very vocal about FB+DM, and was playing a Single ToE FB Mage at the time...
"1.) no other damage dealing things (such as dd) get extra pr for their special powers. increasing the amount they count towards weapon allowance is one thing, but making them outright add pr is another."
DD don't have 'specials'. They all work differently, but that's their thing. FB spreads as does CoC. But FB attacks in Rnaged, CoC Melee. MM does the lowest damage out of the three, but hits in reverse order. Decay is unique. These are built into the *linear* damage these attacks do.
"2.) people are already complaining about the vb, but they have to realize its also being limited by the static AC reduction. if its changed based on x, how long until some usd spender gets a high enough x that it ignores everything."
Limited how? Then link it to it's '+', which isn't a linear upgrade. If it's linked to the now linear 'x' then Jon will have to decide how little or big to make the amount per 'x'. Any yet, there will come a time in that case, when a VB get's large enough to ignore 100%. But at least then it's on a large wepaon who's PR increase reflects its size.
"3.) you want it so you cant use 'power weapons' and tattoos?"
Yup. That would be a start. We already have it for MgS and BoM. Why the outcry over VB/MG/BTh/A-XBow and seekers getting the same restriction?
You always have the choice to use a BoNE or ELS... It's not like a tattoo wearer *can't* use any melee weapons...
QBJohnnywas
August 2 2006 9:43 AM EDT
GL is the only person I know who pulls apart the very strats he is using at the time. I'll generally go the opposite route and be the biggest supporter of whatever I'm using at that moment but then I'm selfish.
You can say what you like Pit, but it is done for the good of gameplay. Whether I agree with what GL has to say at that point or not!
;)
QBJohnnywas
August 2 2006 9:45 AM EDT
And right now I like my Morg/ToA combo. So leave it alone!!!!!!
*stomps off around the room*
the spread of fb/coc is incredibly powerful, as a single tank, or any group with only a tank as a dmg dealer, ou can only take out 1 minion at a time, against most teams thats a guaranteed 4 rounds, more if they have a wall. the spread out dmg is probably the best dmg bonus in the entrie game. the weapons special abilities are built into the linear dmg they do, just as the DD you stated. not to mention the fact that DD never misses where weapons can
those items are already limited by +, the vb + upgrade curve is brutal. mages have an easy out to these "special" weapons, DBs. what else do they have to spend money on?
powershield effects like mgs cant be escaped by enemies where "power weapons" still can. thats just ludicrous, why dont you have mages cant use ToEs as well
you know, if tanks are so "overpowered" now, how come 7/10 of the top 10 in score are still mages
"the spread of fb/coc is incredibly powerful, as a single tank, or any group with only a tank as a dmg dealer, ou can only take out 1 minion at a time, against most teams thats a guaranteed 4 rounds, more if they have a wall. the spread out dmg is probably the best dmg bonus in the entrie game."
It's not a damage bonus. First, the total damage you do to a single target is lowered, then this reduced damage is spread across all the minions present.
It might be more strategic to attack all minions at once, that I will not argue against, but it is in no way a damage bonus.
"the weapons special abilities are built into the linear dmg they do, just as the DD you stated."
No they're not. it's a flat 20% leech or 40% AC ignore. No matter what damage the wepaon does. Granted, the results are based on the the linear damage of the weapon, but the ability isn't.
"not to mention the fact that DD never misses where weapons can"
And wepaon can hit a potential unlimited amount of times...
"those items are already limited by +, the vb + upgrade curve is brutal. mages have an easy out to these "special" weapons, DBs. what else do they have to spend money on?"
The number of hits you land doesn't effect the special in any way. It will effect your characters results, but not what the weapon can do.
So They have DBs exactly the same size as weapon pth. The 'specials' still hit twice due to dex. But wait, evasion! This isn't a strategy discussion Pit...
"powershield effects like mgs cant be escaped by enemies where "power weapons" still can. thats just ludicrous, why dont you have mages cant use ToEs as well"
What?
"you know, if tanks are so "overpowered" now, how come 7/10 of the top 10 in score are still mage"
Don't know, don't care. Ask them.
I (again, I'll say it again...) don't think Tanks are overpowered.
But there is a problem with the special weapons.
Sorry Sef! Missed this!
"But why nerf them? Why not raise up the BoNE and the ELS?"
Cool., everyone prefers to get something, rather than have something taken away. :) But that just makes a larger gap between the big 4 (or 5) and everything else. We might just as well scrap all other weapons (bar a whip/dagger) now anyway, more so if we just make the top 5 better.
But then why the restrictions on the MgS and BoM? Why not get rid of those?
i meant dmg bonus as in the bonus is associated with the weapon, weapon bonus might have been more appropriate to call it.
40% ac reduction and va is built in just like the multi-attack and reverse attacks of dd, not dependent on level or the x
when i was talking about the + upgrade curve, i was referring to you tying weapon bonuses to it
no it may not be a strategy discussion, but they have drawbacks which can be exploited very effectively, so i dont quite see the reason for reducing them more. high enough dbs also take out dx to hit, so dbl hits arent guaranteed either.
my point is that if the special weapons are so unbalanced, why are 7/10th of the top 10 mages and not exploiting them. if tanks are not over powered then why are you trying to weaken them.
you want overpowered? how about dbs? they have the same upgrade curve as cheap weapon +, but dont have the x req weapons do so they can effectively nullify a weapon of significantly higher nw. how is this any different than vb only partially nullifying someones ac
velvetpickle
August 2 2006 10:21 AM EDT
"Yes using one as opposed to other weapons has a meaningful downside in certain situations."
And what's that BL? Using one isntead of a BTh or Morg means you don't get leech on no AC minions, but that's about it.
It has no downside (if you ignore the natural state of larger wepaons doing larger damage) when compared to any other melee weapon. "
Obviously that is not the case according to the 200 or so people using Both or Morgs....
the biggest VB in the game is: Callandor [75x1400] (+70)
the biggest MH: MijØlnər [84x11000] (+177)
The MH dosen't negate AC or Protection, but you can't possibly believe that a 10 fold x increase, higher base damage, and 2.5x PTH dosen't lay down enough extra damage over the VB to equal that out...
(the biggest Both: Hamster Pancreas [73x4491] (+142)
almost 4x the damage increase over the VB with 2x the PTH...)
Now it obviously costs a great deal more money to get the MH up to those kind of stats, but someone (or should I say MANY people) are willing to invest that kind of money into their weapon b/c of the massive amount of dmg it can inflict and the corresponding ammount of HP they receive from that leech.
velvetpickle
August 2 2006 10:25 AM EDT
That being said..... I would second the idea of making Toe/Prot/AC reduction based on the x of the VB, similar to the way DEX/STR reduction are tied to the x of ax/exbows.
It seems a great deal of people are using lower valued VB's because they get the full str of the enhancement at a relatively low NW.
bartjan
August 2 2006 10:33 AM EDT
Why do people keep saying that the Vorpal Blade is overpowered?
All it does to me, compared to a regular weapon, is 21% more damage (because of losing 71.5 AC). The higher (8%) damage upgrade costs and lower base already compensates for this, and then there's also the higher to-hit upgrade costs.
Because the VB allows lower level chars to essentially negate a limitless amount of NW, thereby allow much low chars to defeat much much much larger chars.
bartjan
August 2 2006 10:40 AM EDT
I already explained how little effect it has on me...
Characters still need str and a high NW on the VB to use it well otherwise that 40% is worthless.
My advice is to stop being such a whino novice, I've never heard you complain so much.
The question is not how little it does to you now bart, it's how well it does when it's at a normal NW, at which point they won't be a a serious disadvantage. What you're saying is that an item isn't overpowered unless it's overpowered verses everyone, and that just isn't the case.
ac does the same thing novice. how much of weapon nw is annihilated by your high ac/prot/ToE? 388 ac reduces 81.45% physical dmg not counting prot and ToE. This reduces 81.45% of any nw. vb only reduces 40% of any nw, but only if it hits. AC is good in all cases, against dd and phys, while a vb is only better against high ac enemies. again i fail to see how vb is any less fair than ac. especially since vb can not be effective at all, if it misses.
GL that gap is there, it is HUGE and it will be irregardless of nerfing three items or raising two items.
No person will go any significant distance without the use of a let us say top 5 weapon. You can try and build an archer around a compound, but you need an elbow before you spend significant CB2 on it, because the return on your investment will be virtually non-existant. The same is true for a Morg or BoNE and an exec, and a VB, Bth, or ELS and a katana.
That will not change and I firmly believe that is intentional.
Zog: noted, just like everyone else who has been kind enough to try and stop my mad tirade...
I want to see the VB grow up and wear big boy pants, I don't want to see a whole heap of folks invest in the vb and then find out months from now that yeah it really was kinda busted. I'm not even talking about a real nerf here, just that the VB stop acting like it's a weak old supporter style item with it's fixed bonus, and step up to it's new place as the best 1 handed weapon in the game.
QBRanger
August 2 2006 10:55 AM EDT
Yes Bart you explained it very well.
However, what about those teams that use a TOE and have the VB effectively negate 40% of it.
How would you like it if there was a new bow that drained 40% of your str and dex during missile and did the damage between that of a compound and elb.
People say "look at the axbow, it drains dex". I say again, poppycock!!. The axbow does minimal damage compared to the elb and even compared to the compound bow. So you are sacrificing something to get something. Imagine if the axbow had a base damage of 6 and its upgrade curve was just behind that of the elb. This is what we are seeing with the VB.
The VB is great vs heavy AC/TOE minions and excellent vs non-armored minions as well due to many factors I have discussed before.
Now people talk about its tough upgrade curve on the +. That is true, however, get a TOA tank, with its bonus to PTH and who cares if your hitting 3 or 4 times vs Heavy walls/0 dex mages? You will get 2 just from dex alone and 1 or 2 from the PTH. People also say you can use DB's to protect vs the VB. But you will need such a high set of DB's to protect a mage vs the dex pth. And if you come across a TOA tank, your DBs cannot be high enough to prevent you from getting hit 2 times at least.
You have lower AC minions, correct. But to survive in the endgame, one will need some degree of armor. The VB, makes armor useless in the endgame as it stands now. Krang with the largest MH in the game does about 220k damage to my wall per hit. Nymandus with a VB 1/10th as costly does 175k per hit to my wall and 275k a hit to my enchanters. Still more than enough damage to cut through my character quickly. He just does not now due to the large MPR advantage I currently have.
People have also used the argument that since there are no high NW VB's they must not be overpowered. Again, Poppycock!!. I have stated at least 3 valid reasons that is a falsehood. Just wait till someone makes the 30M NW VB and cuts through my wall in 1 round. Then the game will be just like cb1 was just instead of uber elbs running amok, it will be uber VBs.
People have said, enough armor will make a character invulnerable to physical damage. I have heard that in cb1, even with 476 AC you still took damage, just very reduced. Can someone confirm that?
bartjan
August 2 2006 11:01 AM EDT
There is a random factor in the AC formula. Of course, on average you're invincible at 477AC, but not for every hit...
velvetpickle
August 2 2006 11:30 AM EDT
Someone needs to do some testing on this.
I would like to see what kind of dmg is done to:
High AC minon, low AC minion, and no AC minion.
by an MH, BoTh, or Bone as compared to an equal NW equal PTH VB.....
It would be interesting to see what the damage compared to AC curves would look like for any/all of these weapons.
If the VB's damage is that close to other weapons vs. a medium or low AC minion, then there is a big problem, but otherwise everything seems ok to me.
velvetpickle
August 2 2006 11:36 AM EDT
If anyone has a VB with a NW around 12mil and PTH around +50. And would be willing to donate it to me for a day or two to do some testing, I would be happy to compare the damages to my MH vs. high/low/no AC to try to start to put this discussion to rest -or- show a deffinite imballance.....
If anyone has a VB of other NW / PTH and would be willing to donate it for some testing speak up, and maybe someone with an "equal" weapon will participate.
I give, I've said my peace 900 too many times now. I'm tired of discussing this with folks I'd rather be chatting it up with.
"GL that gap is there, it is HUGE and it will be irregardless of nerfing three items or raising two items."
Yeah. :( Which is why my deal with Tulwars... We really can just delete a lot of items. They (Tulwars and DCMs and the like) serve no purpose.
I know it's intentional, but I just can't understand why.
Even if the BoNE and ELS are made viable choices, to contend with the Morg, BTh and VB, I still have a problem with thier 'specials' being for free.
"Carnage Blender: Equip your minion with a choice of over 30 devastating Melee weapons. But only three of them are actually really good enough to be used."
velvetpickle
August 2 2006 12:11 PM EDT
After rereading this thread, I noticed that unnerfable VA has been used quite a few times in regards to the life leech of a MH/Both.
I would like to point out that it is quite easy to "nerf" the life leech of a MH or Both.....
Nofer crunched Exken with Un Martillo Morgul [137478]
Iiahar absorbs damage [137478]
notice Nofer hitting me with a MH, and no life leech, while my tank and PL minion still retain many many HP he could have drained.....
The answer for those of you not following along is PL. The investment of EXP to PL is relatively small compared to other stats/enchantments/skills and if you can absorb their entire hit, they get no life leech regardless of whether VA is from the weapon, or trained.....
I know it is kind of off topic on the thread, I just wanted to correct that for future reference.
How about this GL, if you remove all evil from the world, that which is the least good is the most evil.
The only way to say these weapons are better is if you have something to compare them too, and IF you remove all the other weapons, then the BoNE simply becomes the next Tulwar, the ELS the next Katana, etc.
Also since the "best" and the "worst" are subjective (like beers, I might say guiness is the best, you might say bass is the best, and someone, somewhere, would toss them both away for a, gag, Bud Light) I still after all this posting, rate the BTh over the VB. You might disagree vigorously, but you are not necessarily more right.
You seem to be a dichotomy. You advocate choice, but then say because these choices are obviously bad in my opinion, we should not have them.
Hey thanks vp, you learn something new everyday :)
"How about this GL, if you remove all evil from the world, that which is the least good is the most evil."
;) If we remove all evil Sef, the least good is just the least good. It cannot be evil. ;)
"The only way to say these weapons are better is if you have something to compare them too, and IF you remove all the other weapons, then the BoNE simply becomes the next Tulwar, the ELS the next Katana, etc."
Buy aren't you advocating making the BoNE and ELS equal to the other three in some fashion? Then they would all be equal and viable coices.
"Also since the "best" and the "worst" are subjective (like beers, I might say guiness is the best, you might say bass is the best, and someone, somewhere, would toss them both away for a, gag, Bud Light)"
But with weapons, we can quantify them. A dagger is always and will always be worse then a katana (of equal NW obviously, we don't want to not compare like for like. It's quite possible a 100K NW dagger could bebeter than a base katana...)
"I still after all this posting, rate the BTh over the VB. You might disagree vigorously, but you are not necessarily more right."
No, I won't rate them. They both have situational specials, whoes use and therefore usefullness relies heavily on your opponent and your strategy.
If you ignore the specials, then the BTh is slightly worse, and will laways be slightly worse than the VB.
"You seem to be a dichotomy. You advocate choice, but then say because these choices are obviously bad in my opinion, we should not have them."
We don't have choice. Using a Tulwar is not a choice versus a VB, or BTh or Morg.
velvetpickle
August 2 2006 12:27 PM EDT
great point Sefton.... I would add that it is this very choice which in effect handles the PR weighting of weapons GL so patheticly begs for in every post.
If a 6mil NW MH works better in my strat than a 6mil NW Bone or VB, but the inverse is true somewhere else.... they are effecivly weighted. The fact that some characters are using each of these weapons in different scenarios shows that there are obviously positives and negatives to each that GL cannot (or will not) comprehend.
;)
"The answer for those of you not following along is PL. The investment of EXP to PL is relatively small compared to other stats/enchantments/skills and if you can absorb their entire hit, they get no life leech regardless of whether VA is from the weapon, or trained...."
Just one of the reasons people thought PL did/does too much. ;)
Bu that's a different topic. ;)
velvetpickle
August 2 2006 12:29 PM EDT
It seems that for some reason GL is choosing to stick with a Bone in his strat, but feels that he is "entitled" to some additional effect for it to be equal to the other weapons.
If you are CHOOSING to use a Bone, why should it be treated as less than equal!!
VP, check my character again please. I used a BoNE because I had one. That was the only reason.
I'm now, atm using a VB.
Please don't ever persoanlly attack me again.
velvetpickle
August 2 2006 12:37 PM EDT
Please don't drone on about the same irrelevant topic incesently in every thread that presents you the opportunity to bring it up.... and the attacks will cease.
Hold on VP. I'm having an on topic discussion, that wasn't started by me, yet you can only result to persoanl attacks?
If you can't or won't answer my questions in this thread, don't post in it.
Next time you do attack me instead, I'l ask an admin to remove your posts.
Not true, look at it this way, lets say the coldest spot on the planet gets to -50 below. Lets say there is a massive shift in climate and now the coldest spot on the planet is 0 degrees. While 0 degrees may be cold to you and me the former -50 degree spot will consider it quite balmy, and might even call it warm. You might alter the constraints but you cannot remove the comparisons.
I am saying why nerf, when you can boost. It accomplishes the same goal, just puts it at a different level. (the boost meaining they rise up, the nerf meaning they come down)
But you again are assuming purpose. I might think the dagger is the best weapon on the planet, because it is the most fun to forge. If all I want to do is forge my dagger who are you to tell me a katana is better? Sure you can say for the strict purpose of doing damage, a katana is better than a tulwar, but what if I like the base on the tulwar because it looks prettier, again, how can you say in my subjectives terms I am wrong?
Yah and if you ignore the sun, the fact that you are hot will be real surprising. Not sure why you want to remove the specials from comparison, when they are integral to function. If you ignore Score/PR/MPR I have the best character in CB.
Who is to say it is not a choice, when you first started out, did you choose the sabre over a cutlass, a tulwar over a sabre, again, I think it is arrogant to assume because you do not see a purpose in a weapon, that no one does.
I know one guy who spent basically his entire CB career forging a whip. When he was done he had the biggest whip in the game. He was proud of it, and he enjoyed doing it, who are you to say that he is wrong to do so or that he shouldn't have the choice to do so.
"But you again are assuming purpose. I might think the dagger is the best weapon on the planet, because it is the most fun to forge. If all I want to do is forge my dagger who are you to tell me a katana is better? Sure you can say for the strict purpose of doing damage, a katana is better than a tulwar, but what if I like the base on the tulwar because it looks prettier, again, how can you say in my subjectives terms I am wrong?
Yah and if you ignore the sun, the fact that you are hot will be real surprising. Not sure why you want to remove the specials from comparison, when they are integral to function. If you ignore Score/PR/MPR I have the best character in CB.
Who is to say it is not a choice, when you first started out, did you choose the sabre over a cutlass, a tulwar over a sabre, again, I think it is arrogant to assume because you do not see a purpose in a weapon, that no one does.
I know one guy who spent basically his entire CB career forging a whip. When he was done he had the biggest whip in the game. He was proud of it, and he enjoyed doing it, who are you to say that he is wrong to do so or that he shouldn't have the choice to do so."
Touche.
:)
I could like Tulwars the most because of thier name.
But, none of that has an effect on gameplay. In CB, a weapons job is doing damage. You oculd (for example) just use a wepaon on a mage as a slot to name something. But it's not performing as a wepaon then, and these discussions are moot.
Maybe I should have added to all my posts "In thier performancies as weapons" in the appropriate places. ;)
velvetpickle
August 2 2006 12:48 PM EDT
I answered your question... once again. As I (and others) have in 5 or 6 other threads. If pointing out the fact that you are stubborn and hold on to irrelevant ideals even after being shown multiple times why it is incorrect is "attacking you" then I appologize, but I think all things considered, you are just gonna have to get some thicker skin if you wish to attempt to defend a ludacris set of ideals.
People with bad ideas get flamed every day, you are gonna have to suck it up....
VP, this post;
"It seems that for some reason GL is choosing to stick with a Bone in his strat, but feels that he is "entitled" to some additional effect for it to be equal to the other weapons.
If you are CHOOSING to use a Bone, why should it be treated as less than equal!!"
Had nothing to do with any questions posed in this thread. You don't answer my questions, you skirt around them and attack my character or choice of strat.
Both of thes things are *always* seperate to the questions I pose in these threads, and bear no relevance to them
How the hell does me using a BoNE have anything to do with any problems with a VB?
velvetpickle
August 2 2006 1:04 PM EDT
If you scroll up one line.... you will see the answer to the question you posed...
"If a 6mil NW MH works better in my strat than a 6mil NW Bone or VB, but the inverse is true somewhere else.... they are effecivly weighted. The fact that some characters are using each of these weapons in different scenarios shows that there are obviously positives and negatives to each that GL cannot (or will not) comprehend. "
It is the same answer I gave you (reworded of course) the 5 other times you have asked this question.
I'm done with you VP. There are just some people you can't discuss or reason with.
Again GL you say "But, none of that has an effect on gameplay. In CB, a weapons job is doing damage." That is true if the reason you play the game is to fight. But not everyone plays the game to fight and win and be the best. Granted our choices of how we play the game are getting less.
Some people only played CB to camp. Those people at the time probably felt the best item in the game was a corn. Because it was the easiest to sell for the most amount of money.
Some people only play CB to be a commerce agent via loans and the such in economic clans. To them, they might love the katana, because so many new players want to move up to katana from say a Great Axe, and you get a lot of loans for small easily payed off amounts (low risk) that make as much percentage wise as the large risky ones.
Some people play CB to forge, they might like one weapon over the other for forging reasons like the least amount of BA spent to add to the plus, but still the most return on the percentage of NW gained.
You cannot assume because an item is worthless for how you play the game it is worthless to how someone else does.
And ALL of that has an effect on game play, just depends on how and why you play the game.
And once you capitulate that and item has value if you play the game differently, then how can you advocate their removal and still advocate choice?
To me you are saying go choice as long as you choose to play CB like me which is to fight and win, otherwise you do not need any choices?
Again, Touche Sef. I do see CB from it's fighting side, and my questions stem from this. To me, CB is about fighting, that is the game.
:)
In their performancies as weapons for fighting...
;)
But. This topic is about a weapons performce while fighting. And three perform better than every other weapon in the game. From a purely fighting perspective, why are any other weapons (bar a starter wepaon) really needed?
Because if you remove the others then the least best will become the most worst. So take all weapons out but the VB, BTh, and the Morg, and what have you accomplished but change what weapon you tag as the worst? That and remove a lot of choice based upon your subjective opinion that the BoNE and ELS have no place as compared to the special items.
And that a katana has no place even though if I was running a 4 tank enchanter team Haste/GS/AS/AS and wanted to equip them all with a decent one handed weapon and I could afford one BTh and 3 decent sized katanas for the price of two base BTh's. Maybe toss an exec or two in there if I was going without a shield or going with crossbows or axbows.
What if I have a wall I want to sweep up enchanters with, why should I spend 2mil for a base VB when I could spend less than 100K for a base katana and STILL accomplish my goal of picking off enchanter with no HP because I DM-nerfed their AS and they were not smart enough to train a little exp into HP as a hedge.
The possibilities of creative application are endless IF you have choices.
velvetpickle
August 2 2006 1:42 PM EDT
" But. This topic is about a weapons performce while fighting. And three perform better than every other weapon in the game. From a purely fighting perspective, why are any other weapons (bar a starter wepaon) really needed? "
/me points GL back to an extremly long discussion that ensued in another thread when he asked this exact same question 4 or 5 days ago....
Please GL PLEASE stop brining up the same stuff over and over you are killing the Forums as I have come to know them!
"Because if you remove the others then the least best will become the most worst. So take all weapons out but the VB, BTh, and the Morg, and what have you accomplished but change what weapon you tag as the worst? That and remove a lot of choice based upon your subjective opinion that the BoNE and ELS have no place as compared to the special items."
But how do you tag on of those three as the owrst? becasue of thier specific specials, they all hav strategic uses. ;) At no point does it become better to use a Katana over a VB (ok, if you have access to both weapons...)
"What if I have a wall I want to sweep up enchanters with, why should I spend 2mil for a base VB when I could spend less than 100K for a base katana and STILL accomplish my goal of picking off enchanter with no HP because I DM-nerfed their AS and they were not smart enough to train a little exp into HP as a hedge."
You could always use the base weapon typ for that. ;) Especially as you only ned to do 20HP damage.
"The possibilities of creative application are endless IF you have choices."
Agreed! Give us more choice! I'd be most pleased if there was a choice *for* every weapon, and not jut three, or five. :) More choice, moer strategy, more fun!
"Please don't drone on about the same irrelevant topic incesently in every thread that presents you the opportunity to bring it up"
+1
Look GL, part of the fun of CB for some people is earning better equipment as they go. You've been around long enough to forget this, I suppose, but if everyone started off with a MH (or VB) what would they have to look forward to?
The alternative would be to tell new players "just don't bother trying a tank until you can afford one of these weapons (which are much more expensive now because instead of having poor alternatives, there are NO alternatives)."
Yeah, that would add _tons_ of choice.
OK. So I'm droning and irrelevant then.
:(
I won't post anymore. I'm not asking for a forum ban, as I've PR threads I need to keep up with, but if I'm really irrelevant, my input isn't needed.
velvetpickle
August 2 2006 2:13 PM EDT
The irrelevance of your post dosen't bother me (much).... it is that you bring up the same 4 or 5 topics (no matter how much they have already been discussed) in almost every thread that gets bothersome.
If I was a bit harsh and offensive today I publicly apologize, and hope to see future irrelevance in the future :) (as long as it is new irrelevance)
vp: you've added nothing to the discussion ever, and now you've got Jon quoting you...good job
Sir Woot
August 2 2006 2:19 PM EDT
Please don't stop posting GL. I for one enjoy reading these posts. I consider reading posts like these as part of my CB education. I get both sides of the issue and can make up my own mind about what to do with the information. I think you are entitlted to your opinion even if everyone else thinks it's wrong. I also think the following statement "Please don't drone on about the same irrelevant topic incesently in every thread that presents you the opportunity to bring it up" is out of line in a thread whose subject was the topic of your post.
QBRanger
August 2 2006 2:19 PM EDT
Jon:
A lot of people actually do tell new players not to start a tank until they can afford a nice weapon. What good does it do a new player to get a THF and pump 2 million into it just to discover that weapon quickly is obselete?
Given the fact there is no way to reverse blacksmith, any monies spent on any weapon other than the top 5 is wasted. But as things are, quite a few people would tell new players to get a VB and then go tank. With the current % of the NUB it is very easy for a new player to make 2 million cb2 in under 2 weeks.
So, in my mind, there really is little choice for melee weapons for new players. Just save for 2 weeks and get a top 5 weapon.
velvetpickle
August 2 2006 2:22 PM EDT
Ranger speaking from the other side....
I thoroughly enjoyed making my way through weapon after countless weapon when I first started playing. Had someone told me I couldn't start a tank until I could get a top 5 weap., There is a good chance I wouldn't be talking to you today.
bartjan
August 2 2006 2:33 PM EDT
I just don't understand for example why people say in New Players to newbies that slings are crap. Please don't do that. From your point of view it may be very true, but not on your first day(s). On your first day, bows and crossbows are way overpowered and too expensive. A base sling, some pebbles and the cheapest melee weapon you can find will go a long way...
If it doesn't seem so, your probably training the wrong (or too many) stats.
Items such as the Double Chain Mail do exist in this game for an entirely different reason. Please don't suggest removing those...
BootyGod
August 2 2006 2:49 PM EDT
i wonder if I could ask bartjan to switch ALL your names to some version of dramallama. Seems like you all done far more then I ever could have. Oh, and slings are fine for the first week of the game, I admitted as much. But staff slings?
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