New Idea: Wacky Forge Blocks (in General)

My Most Recent Idea: Wacky Forge Blocks

The idea is that fighters have a wacky XP block and a wacky money block. These
times are never missed by the hardcore fighters whether it be XP that you're
looking for or a little extra cash. So what I'm suggesting is simple. I'd like
to see two 6 hour blocks a week where forgers get a forge bonus. It's my
understanding that the bonus given to fighters during the wacky times is still
kind of random .. maybe there is a % increase range to the rewards .. im not
entirely sure. What I propose is this:

Let's say it that I am forging a base Mithril Chain Mail with my 800k MPR
character. Today we'll just say that after the first spell is cast the RPM goes
up 60%. In the wacky forge times this 60% could range from 75% to 105%. That
would be a % bonus range of 125% - 175% and that would be random. So it would
be entirely possible that after the first spell you get a good bonus of 175% and
then on the quench you only get 125%. The bonus should be a random % bonus
based on what your normal RPM increase would be during non-bonus hours.

Why is this a good idea? There needs to be more of a balance between forgers
and fighters. Yea I know forgers have econ clans that give them reduced
transfer rates and they pay the Blacksmith less money than a fighter does ...
but a reward like this could make a big impact on the forge world. Who really
wants to be a forger now a days anyway? I mean fighting is more fun .. I think
even the forgers agree on that. Forging is predictable, monotonous, and some
days just boring. There needs to be more incentive to keep forgers coming in.
Otherwise who can the fighters turn to in order to chop the greedy Blacksmith's
prices by 25% .. saving you anywhere from 50k to 3million cb2? In conclusion, a
wacky forge block could break up the dryness and bring a little bit of fun and
excitement to forging .. at least for 12 hours a week :P

Wacky times work because there are two categories, money and exp rewards. The only reason it works as it does is because as one increases, the other falls accordingly. Since there is only one real 'reward' from forging, and that is the RPM, there is nothing to counterbalance the upswing of the forging RPM. It would be a pure increase for forgers, while for fighters it is more like tipping the scale more in one direction, and dropping it in the other.

Th00p, You're right. However, During these times the you could increase the BS fee. Alternativly, You could make the hour block 3 hr instead.

Maybe making the % having a possibility of making your RPM increase less. imo, that would even be interesting. Or you could not have somethign so high like the fighters do because they have a counter block. Instead, only give forgers a smaller 50% increase as oppose to whatever the Fighters get.


maybe instead of everyone bashing the idea, especially those fighters that have absolutley nothing to lose here. (Since forgers only help fighters and as if this would make Forgers over powered LoL) We should be thinking of constructive ways to make this work.

I agree with Chappy. Right now to forge something even 2M NW takes about a week at least. Some incentive needs to be there to let forgers forge faster. Like during money time, forging % goes up, during xp time, forging % goes down. That way they can buy BA during the money time and still make money forging.

During xp time, they would stay away from forging as hardcore fighters stay away from fighting as much as possible during money time.

Great Idea!

I was just complaining about that in chat today :). Glad someone with some clout made the suggestion woot!.

You're right, fighters do have something to balance it out, but, doesnt most fighters buy BA to use it during EXP times? And fight the least in Money times? So, in turn they get more bang for their buck during exp times, wheres our bang for our buck during whacky forge times? We have no advantage to buying BA as of right now.

I once suggested the same thing, and someone provided a very good reason against it:

If you decrease forge costs during a time (and decrease forge rate, or whatever balancing effect), people could just wait until that time to finish off the last 0.1% of their forging.

If you increase forge rate (and increase forge cost, or whatever balancing effect), people could forge up to 99.9%, and then stop, to avoid the higher costs.

I'll throw an idea in there, not sure whether this is practical or not...

The two main "game" activities are fighting an forging, right? These are the ways to spend BA. Forgers require decent MPR but do not receive Exp rewards, so most forgers retire from fighting (as you need all the BA you can get to stay competitive as a fighter).

Could there be a "wacky" block during which forgers DO receive Exp in addition to the RPM? Maybe convert 50% of the NW they generate to Exp at a fixed rate? At least they would gradually get better as forgers. In the long run, fighters require higher and higher enhancements of their gear, so better and better forgers are of benefit, since those mega-pluses can be generated a little more rapidly.

This would also provide some relief from "forging boredom". It would need to be carefully balanced to maintain fighting as the preferred form of gaining Exp.

fighters trade off more exp for less money or vice versa.


would you do the same with forging, i.e. make it cheaper but gain less progress or vice versa?

just have rapid RPM gains time for one six hour period (100% increase), and slow RPM gains for another six hour time period (50% decrease) or something similar. Dont do anything with money, cuz yes, that would be very easy to just goto ~99% and wait till cheap forge times. I also liked the exp times for forgers idea.

smallpau1 that is a good idea, but it doesn't really give a bonus while forge rate is decreased, vice versa.

this has already been mentioned but, whacky times, exp time, you get less cash. cash time, you get less exp. there really isn't a balance with forging.

and some people don't have time, and they could get online during a whacky low rate time, and their forging is screwed for a day.

I'm not trying to pay out forging, but it does suck, i do want to see something happen to make it more beneficial. as of now, they make a little bit more than fighters, and fighters get exp. I think it is highly unbalanced that way. But i do think that not enough people are interested in forging, which is why jon doesn't really care, or want to change anything. i cant remember any change, not one, that was for forging over the 10 months or so i've been here.

maybe if there were more forgers, jon would take more interest in doing something about it.

ok, i get the point that there has to be a rise and fall at one time for each whacky time, So what about this idea? Make a change that grants forgers a certain amount of exp per minion based on a percent of NW increase throughout the RPM (Ex. per cycle).

Time One -
Raise the RPM Gains 100% and lower the exp gains 50%

Time Two -
Raise the Exp gains 100% and lower the RPM gains 50%

Thoughts?

Not only do i think my idea is grand (not to sound too full of myself, but...), but it WOULD draw more people to the forgers side!

that within its self is pretty good, without the wacky-ness of it, just to give minions exp, would at least draw some people towards forging.


we can wait and see now :)

We'll since the idea is up in the air. I think we should fine tune it a little more. You know, Less for jon to figure out all by his lonesome. If we talk about it then we can flame it and make it better so we dotn have to go through a dozen recalibrations.

Just my opinion.

well i think, they should fall/rise according to how much it does by normal whacky times.

but i do believe, most people would stay away from the exp time, because who really wants exp while they're forging? i know i wouldn't rather that much.

imo, sacrificing RPM for exp is bad.

and I'm trying to think of ways to make it. but basically it would be just adding a whole thing to forging.

it would have to be at least half the xp fighters make, because forgers can make more money.

ok, you would choose the RPM over exp during whacky times, but dont most fighters choose exp times as opposed to money times? Same type of thing going on, see?

yes, but some people actually use money time when they are in need of it(i.e. to pay off a loan, or buy some gear), but really when you forge you don't really need or want exp.


as you can see i'm leaning towards just having exp and RPM, no wacky times, but thats besides the point of the thread :)

they may want exp, because the higher the MPR the faster forging goes too.

yes but we can't have full xp, and this for forgers, isn't too good. i might get 5k MPR if i'm lucky thats with buying BA, on a non-NCB/NUB character.

so if you would half that they would get maybe 3k MPR a day, not much.

now i'm off to bed, no replying to this thread until i wake up ;)

Given the way forging is going now a days I think that there really doesn't need to be a down-side .. I mean forging as it is is a pain in the butt. Just throw an added incentive during two 6 hour blocks and be done with it. It's not like everyone is going to drop what they are doing to forge anyway ... but I think it would attract more of a crowd.

Or if you wanted a downside then we could have the 'random % bonus range' be more like 75% - 175% or maybe 50% - 200% instead of the 125% - 175% that I had initially come up with. I don't think it would be a good idea to mess with the Blacksmith prices so I'm steering clear of those thoughts. Also, I don't like the idea of gaining xp through forging. It just isn't something that makes too much sence.

Now if there was an inate skill to forging .. one that you didn't dump xp into .. one that you just increased through forging ... The higher the skill the better a forger you are .. then maybe we could come up with some legitimate 'up-sides & down-side' for wacky forge blocks... but as it is I don't see that happening.

It makes since in that the more you do anything the better you get at it. So why not have a tatto will call it "the hammer" that grows and increases the forgers efficiency so that the more he forges the better he gets at it? This kind of exp gain makes since. Also, this would solve the no tat growth involved with forging.

chappy I have actually been thinking about "bonus forging times" and the issue of gaining exp through forging. I thought for sure that forgers needed some type of reward during bonus times. My idea was to do bonus RPM (during exp times) as you had suggested, but also to do reduced forging fees (during bonus cash times). It seems someone else brought that up, and it has been shot down, but if you look at fighters able to make some serious cash during bonus times, why not charge forgers less cash during those times?

I also have felt forgers should be granted some exp for forging. As the process stands right now, fighters gain exp., for fighting, and that exp gain allows them better skill in forging. Why would the inverse be so far fetched?

As the system stands now, a person who has decided to forge full time will never progress in his trade, where someone who has never picked up a forging hammer, but continues to fight will have the ability to further master a trade he has never experimented with.

In the current system there is no direct corelation between training 1 million exp. in Decay, AS, AMF, (choose whatever enchatment or skill you would like) and being able to swing a forging hammer. Where as rewarding exp for swining a forging hammer would have some corelation in that a person would gain strength, dexterity, knowledge etc. from this type of work.

I would not go as far as to say create a "skill" for forging, as that would turn off a GREAT deal of people from doing it, but rewarding those that forge, (or allowing greater progress to those that forge regularly) does seem overdue.

I dunno... I like the idea of increased RPM and increased fees during one time, and decreased RPM and fees during another time. It doesn't make sense to me that you can forge for 100 ba and think to yourself, "excellent! now my Ethereal Chains drains more! I'm sure glad I forged!" Exp from forging doesn't sit right with me. Exp should come from challenging battles. Forging needs an incentive, not an overhaul.

I haven't read the full thread, so I don't know how greatly this point has been argueed, but to TD, and others who feel this way...

"excellent! now my Ethereal Chains drains more! I'm sure glad I forged!"

how does "excellent my Ethereal Chains drains more! I have gained more capablity in forging now than a person who has been doing nothing but forging 24/7 for the past 3 months!" make any more sense than the inverse?

I just thinkg "forging experience" should play some kind of a roll in forging.... since the system is exp. (MPR) based now, it only makes sense to give forgers exp. so they can get better in forging rather than overhauling the entire forging system.

VP, that makes sense, at least the bit about high RPM times but for higher BS cost, and vice versa with low.

all i can say is i agree, and i was looking through things, and wacky times was not hard to make at all according to jon, but this may be a different case.


maybe if we keep complaining forging might get taken out, just like camping and FS/WTB posts did.

we don't want that.

Ok I don't think that we are posting in this thread to complain. We are posting to come up with ideas to make CB more enjoyable and a better place to spend your time.

VP makes a valid point that forgers gaining xp would indeed make them better forgers even if it is just barely. The difference is that fighters are constantly trying to be the best and they need that xp gain to try and out do the next guy. I'd be happy if my forger never gained any xp because I'm happy with how well he forges. I don't have any problems getting forge jobs and it's not like I ever fight with him ..

Oh and I forgot to add ...

Misfit's idea has real potential in my mind ... Let's think about it and come up with some pros and cons on having a forge tattoo ... think about it and how it would work ..

i'm more in favor of a new forging system. face facts the 1 we have is not very profitable. if you think about it forging should be way more profitable than fighting because you don't get XP from forging. however fighting is more profitable than forging. to me that's a problem.

I like the concept of misfits idea, even if forging gave no exp rewards right now (which I would rather see)... Forgers should somehow be rewarded for prior forging experience. They should be able to get better at their job with more practice.

Another possible solution is that Jon rewrites the RPM formula to incorporate random (or even static for that matter) RPM bonuses for prior forging exp.

As an example lets say a person is working on a Corn. At the persons MPR they would normally gain 2% per cycle. If the person has $5million worth of prior forging exp (which is already tracked by the system) they could have y% chance of getting x% bonus on every step of forging. The more experience you have in forging, increase x and or y....

Maybe i didn't understand what you were saying before, VP, but that is a great idea. The idea of forging to make your fighter better isn't right to me, but the idea of forging to make your FORGER better is great. You should definitely get a bonus to forging efficiency based on prior NW gains through forging. That makes perfect sense to me; i just didn't agree with getting raw XP on minions for forging.

Unless forging itself is looked at more close in terms of BA used and NetWorth gained this entire discussion is useless.

Also people should be aware to give actual examples instead of just theories.


Imo forging should be made a bit more rewarding but making wacky times for it isn't profitable unless it would be overpowered.

Even a wacky time of 6 hours in which you'd forge with 25% increased speed and also use up more money would be a bit overpowered due to your BA being worth so much more.

How about making the X and the + wacky. Or even the make a three-some rotation with armor.

Example:
Monday from 6a-12p: Weapon + forging increased by 30%, armor + and weapon X decreased by 15% each

Wednesday from 6p-12a: Armor + forging increased by 30%, other two decreased by 15% each

Thursday from 6a-12p: Weapon X forging increased by 30%, other two decreased by 15% each.

Of course if you wanted to have all three in one day, the time would have to be decreased. I think this would be good for casual forgers, allowing them to forge their weapons for a little bit. For the career forger, there would be no negative impact for the week if they have a long term forge deal (30% increase for one day is negated by the 15% decreases the other two days).

My $.02

going back to the idea of a forge tattoo...

The only real negative I could think of is that it would make it almost impossible for a fighter to do their own forging and expect to keep up with forgers who have their own "forge tattoos."

Other minor considerations are that the tattoo could be traded from a full time forger to someone with no forging experience giving them a huge bump in forging with no "forging work" to get there.

Could any tattoo be reinked to the forging tattoo... same issue as above.

Tattoos gain level based on trained exp... unless it was to work as an RoS or something, there would be no way to lvl your tattoo through forging.

forging tattoo would obviously be level'ed through forging, lol. And make it so it only works "better" the higher your MPR. And VP, why would a fighter want to try and keep up with forgers by forging themselves? They fight, they dont forge, lol. Plus, do forgers buy a ToJ to keep up with fighters? Nah, its useless!

not to "keep up with" smallpau...

I am a fighter.... but I have done 10mil worth of forging on my own items, as it is more cost effective on really expensive upgrades to sacrifice a few experience points to save millions of dollars (the difference between 20% BS fees and 60 - 70% forging fees).

If a forging tattoo were created, I don't do enough forging to warrant buying a "forging tattoo", so I would for the most part loose the option of forging my own items.....

Obviously I would still have the option, but for the time it would take me to do a project, there would be a lot less reason to do it myself. (maybe that is what the forgers would prefer :)

The thing I liek with the forging tattoo is that it helps the same way that a fighting tattoo does. You can still fight without a tattoo, but you're going to be behind from the rest of the fighters at your similiar MPR, but you can still fight. The same would hold true for forging. You can forge without a tattoo and still reap the rewards, but you just won't be able to forge like the hardcore forgers ... with the big tattoos ... Oh you couldn't hold a candle to them .. they could forge 3+s on that CoI before you get half way to the first + ...

Make sense?

I am with you on that Chappy....

It begins to address the problem, but dosen't completly solve it.... Characters with no forging exp could still reink non-forgng tats to gain tons of forging advantage, or but forging tattoos from experienced forgers.

I feel it would be better to gain a "forging advantage" by actually forging....

Taking into account that this whole discussion is soley for our own ammusement, as Jon would have to make a decision that he wants a change in the forging system....

I just think it would be an easier coding change to say if your lifetime forging = x you have y% chance of receiving a z% bonus to RPM. Rather than creating a whole new item, and designing a new method of growth for the new tattoo type (since exp based growth no longer fits)

Although many have disagreed, I still think just awarding exp for forging, and possibly implementing some bonus times for forging would take care of all the concerns.

Awarding exp for forging, allows forgers to continue to get better in forging, which is the basic concept of the tattoo as it has been suggested. Possibly just award the exp gains/bonus times to econ. clan members? Could this address some of the downsides, as well as adding popularity to economic clans?

VP with that second last statement of yours, i think you just proved how it would work to forgers advantage! =)

I think that the idea of a forging tattoo sounds good, but is not going to happen here .. that's obvious. There does, however, need to be some way for a forger to continue to get better at forging the more forging experience he/she has ..

What suggestions are in your minds?

VP has suggested that when you forge you get XP. This would indeed increase your forging performance, but how would it work? When you fight .. the XP you are awarded is determined by (correct me if I am wrong) a relationship between PR / SCORE of the fighter vs the defender. I guess you could gain more XP when you forge items that are harder to forge? Like that CORN that Caedmon just forged up ... he could have gotten maybe 500k XP or something for that?? You get the idea...

I see the benefit in that, but I think there needs to be some sort of forging experience stat added .. an inate skill that increases with every forge. Maybe it would have a cap, and maybe it wouldnt. If this were added then forging performance would no longer be based upon simply MPR of you character, but additionally how high your forge skill was. This idea I like a lot more ..

Anyone have comments?

There should be SOMETHING forgers could receive as benefit besides the decreased forge fees. A forger who's been at it a while should show some increase in forging ability. Fighters gain exp as well as money for fighting. Forgers only gain money by forging but no exp, and the money gained doesn't come close to equalling the money fighters gain by expending the same BA.

Fighters can fight, gain exp and money, pay a forger to forge their items and still come out ahead. Where's the benefit for forgers to keep forging? Right now, there is none.

Unless we come up with something to compensate forgers for their efforts, we're going to lose them as an asset against the blacksmith fees.

Either give forgers exp for forging or create a forging skill that allows forgers a benefit for doing what they do. The arguement that forgers shouldn't gain experience the way fighters do doesn't hold water. Fighters can gain experience and become more efficient at forging by just fighting and increasing their MPR. The only way forgers can get better at forging currently is to fight and increase their MPR that way. Why not allow forgers to gain exp by forging? At least we would all be on the same level playing field.

Allowing forgers exp by forging seems to be the easiest fix for now. Maybe in CB3 they can add a stat for forging or a tattoo like has been suggested but I don't see Jonathan making any of these changes in the near future. How difficult would it be to give exp for forging? Anyone?

i still like my idea that i suggested a while ago about when making a new char, choose between a forger and a fighter.

Both gain exp while doing what they do, but can only do what they assigned themselves to do from the get go. And for another even more extreme idea, make it so only forgers could raise items up, and get rid of the blacksmith.

just responding to smallpau1.

people have a change of mind in this game, they can fight, forge, fight, forge. they like to be free. that would be restricting them to much, if they have to pick.

Terrible idea, and you knew that before posting too.

yea, you're right, nice idea you posted there too, how is it SUCH a bad idea? Lets see, do you get a job, and then do someone elses job in real life as well? Nah, i dont really think you do, i just thought it would be a good idea, so i posted it, instead of posting what you just posted, why dont you say why its a bad idea, or post your own idea?

cb1}smallpau1, I like your idea.. I think getting rid of the Blacksmith would be a great idea. The only problem I see is new players would be at a serious disadvantage vs others that have been here a while and blacksmithed there gear up. To reach lvls of some of the weapons and armor would take years. I think if a reset were to occur then this would work out well. I wish this game had something similar to Diablo's Ladder. Where people can compete with a fresh economy and have to create new characters to see who can reach lvl 99 the quickest. This puts everyone on equal footing and its voluntary so If you don't want to participate you can stay in non-ladder games. Once that ladder season is up those characters are moved over to non-ladder and the cycle repeats.

I personally like SP's Idea .. especially of getting rid of the blacksmith .. but the fact is that there are far too few forgers out there to handle the amount of forging that would need done .. .. but I still like the idea ... As far as choosing from the get go I kind of like it, and I kind of don't .. Out of the gates knowing that you want to forge items ... it just doesn't sound appealing .. fighting is what draws people to CB .. I mean noone goes out looking for a MMORPG that they can just pretend to be a blacksmith and make items better ... they want to kill people and formulate strategies ...

I think that the best overall solution is to have a forging skill that increases the more that you forge. This gives a reward for long term forgers. Do I see this happening in CB2? No way... cb3?? It would be nice ... I don't really think that Jon is worried about forging in the least .. It's not what draws people to cb and it isn't what keeps the majority of the community at cb ... so why should he worry about it? Well to answer my own question .. he should worry about it because it's a part of cb and a part of the community .. It definitely needs something .. there is no question about it ..

JONATHAN: What do you think about our ideas and what are the chances of tossing the forgers a bone??

I agree Chappy, something needs to be done. Honestly though, I think the only possible solution in this version of the game would be to give forgers the same type of exp gain that the fighters get. Anything else would require too many coding changes to be viable for CB2.

If we keep the ideas flowing, it's very possible to see a radically revamped forging skill for CB3.

jon said that CB2 was and still is meant to be the last one. since it is able to adapt so much.

Don't know if its said. But this idea has also been around since the introduction of wacky times.
This idea has been put down for 1 simple reason. Forging is character related. exp and money are minion related. (both MPR i know)

Hmmm... this is a tricky problem to solve. How to boost a forger without just boosting the character itself. Some people say give bonuses to people who make no mistakes for a long period of time. Not bad. I think it should be NW of forged increase in stuff.

So if you have a certain amount of forging done within a (lets say week?) you get a bonus. And there would be different limits. This will only increase to make it like a clan bonus for forgers, but done singularly.

For example:

Player forges 1 million NW (total) increase by Thursday. For rest of week (until end of sunday/saturday depending on if bonus should apply on sunday unlike clans) they get a +10% bonus. You could even do it where it only matters in comparison to other forgers. Say if you are in the top 10 for the week you get a certain amount. Just my opinion!

ummm, how about we make eco clans more useful?
give bonuses, just like clan bonuses. clan with my most NW forged would get a 15% bonus and so on.

so we can have extra to the forging, i don't think it would be that hard to implement.

That would be good. Of course, I am biased, because I am in the largest Eco clan lol

In Jonathan's own words:

Frequently Offered Retarded Suggestions:
2.Q: Why not give the top economic clans a large bonus similar to the bonus standard clans get?
A: People who make this suggestion haven't thought about how easy it is to "manufacture" eclan revenue. As things stand, there is a disincentive to do this in the form of the transfer fee. If top eclans got an extra bonus, this disincentive wouldn't be enough.

Instead, eclan benefits are large across the board. (I doubt most people offering this suggestion have considered that if eclan bonuses were implemented, the base benefit level would be lowered commensurately to keep the average constant.)

And thats why I didn't suggest that particular way :)

Take that Flamey!

lol but he says nothing about individual bonuses!

Has Jonathan given any indication he may do something about individual exp for forgers?

Anyone?

I highly doubt Jon will do anything mentioned in this thread, mostly because it is balanced atm and we are not in a changemonth :P