Strat thoughts. (in General)
August 18 2006 2:27 PM EDT
I was thinking about this 4-minion team:
Tank: 1/2 HP, 1/2 STR. All Wall armors, maybe HoE in place of HoD.
Evasion Minion: 1/3 HP, Max Evasion. Throw DBs and Elvens on him.
Enchanter: all Haste.
Enchanter: All Haste, RoS. Possibly corns on these last two.
I was thinking you'd put AoIs on the first two. The tank'll get some pretty good DX off the E's, the Evasion guy would keep tanks at bay and MM wouldn't reach him until melee. You might even put 1/10 HP on the Enchanters to help them make it through an extra Ranged round. Of course, this strat would be weak to DD, but you could waste some more EXP in AMF and drop MgS/TSA on the Tank to counter that. Just depends on what you're aiming to kill.
Just the most recent strat in my head, lemme know what you think of it.
August 18 2006 2:29 PM EDT
Where do you get your firepower from, you seem to be evading only?
Tank: yes duh a tank deals damage, but with only wall armor and no other boosts this will be a puny tank with perhaps a lot of DX but no actual defenses against mages or bigger tanks.
August 18 2006 2:32 PM EDT
Hm. I'm just trying to think up a way to give a big wall STR (since there's no str penalties) and then use an enchanter to put his DX up with RoS.....maybe just the two-minion thing would be better.
August 18 2006 2:41 PM EDT
I however missed you having 4 minions instead of 3 and also missed you not training DX on the tank.
This brings another option in, also with the same problem: your tank's DX.
with the spells, you don't have any DX penalty, though also with the spells, your DX won't be nearly as high as that of say, 2 minion tank based teams.
August 18 2006 2:44 PM EDT
Even with two Haste enchanters and a Rune of Solitude? It seems like it would be at least fairly close.
August 18 2006 2:48 PM EDT
I actually use something not entirely dissimilar. The evasion minion is out in front and draws physical attacks; since he's got high evasion and dex they tend to miss, prolonging the life of the other three minions. His damage output is somewhat poor but still useful against mages and enchanters. Then a heavy tank, then a pair of enchanters to sit in back, throw enchantments, and act as meat shields versus DD. I've considered RoS but right now have a Steel familiar to boost damage. ToE worked for me for a while, but then solo big tanks tend to eat you alive - the familiar is helpful in those cases.
That's not to say it's a perfect strategy. I'm still fairly low level where mages tend to have a slight advantage, and even with a big AMF they can be trouble. The AS/GA combo also has given me a lot of trouble. So, basically, you can tweak it to be better against DD and against 4-minion teams in general but then you'll be weaker against solo minions.
August 18 2006 2:53 PM EDT
Can you get an estimate on howmuch DX you can get?
Perhaps base this on a real live team which started out with 4 minions and try and mix and match the spells according to the experience of the team?
August 18 2006 3:24 PM EDT
My team has 4 minions with about 500k EXP on each. It is around 650k MPR.
When I had this set up as 3 Es and a UC minion, Haste would cast Effect at half the level.
So I'd have one E with 500k Haste giving 250k DX to everyone.
So with 2 minions, it should have (close to, not quite) 1 mil Haste giving 500k DX, plus a RoS. My max tat is 1 mil, so we'll assume my RoS is 700k. 1/2 its level (I think, I can't remember for sure) would be added to my ED, so I would have a 1.35 mil Haste, giving around 650k DX to both minions.
With 3 minions, I'd have a 650k Haste, with RoS a 1050k Haste, giving just over 500k DX to each minion. A Tank with 500k DX at 650k MPR is not bad.
At 400k Evasion and 100k HP, the Evader would have -75 to PTH, 500k DX, and 400k defensive DX. With DBs and Elvens, we'll assume he has 1 mil Defensive DX and a pretty big minus to PTH.
The Tank would have 250k HP and we'll say the gears only give him 300k STR. (Though, with decent STR equips, he could potentially have about 500k STR at a not-so-high cost.) That won't hit all that hard, but against other tanks, he'll still be doing pretty well. Put a VB on him.
Mages would be the downside.
August 18 2006 4:08 PM EDT
No AMF, No DM?
The ability to use both AMF and DM is one of the strongest points of the ROS.
Without AMF, FB mages will eat you up.
Without AMF, base decays will eat your first minion up.
August 18 2006 4:13 PM EDT
True, I guess the enchanter would have to have at least *some* AMF. Thanks for that pointer, Ranger.
August 18 2006 4:22 PM EDT
You are underestimating the power of haste + RoS... the effect of haste is about 68% of it's level, not half. Inspect Radiskulle for a close variation of this strategy in action.
AS Haste VA/AMF Wall with STR + Morg == a dang good time, Train dex and str on your chanters (+ PL) to eliminate dex/str drain. It's a really fun strat, and with some large dbs on the enchanters you could get somewhere. I'd avoid evasion and just use dbs and an AoI on the third enchanter, training some dex and equipping even a medium compound with archery will do more than the couple extra points evasion ends up giving.
August 18 2006 5:36 PM EDT
The evasion wouldn't be for the purpose of the -PTH so much as the defensive DX that adds on to the Haste. The - to PTH knocks off the weapon PTH while the Defensive DX of just over 1 mil at 650k MPR means they get no DX based hits either....nobody seems to realize just how useful that can be!
August 18 2006 5:45 PM EDT
Nobody realises how useful that could be? Try asking the people that have used UC........me, GL, Barzoo, Independenz....I think you might find we do....lol
August 18 2006 5:53 PM EDT
I guess other people who have used UC can understand ;) Didn't think about that. And Pit certainly understands what Evasion can do, as well.
Almost makes me wish I hadn't destroyed my EEET UC tank.
August 18 2006 6:10 PM EDT
The combo of - PTH and defensive dex is probably one of the most powerful things in the game; it's not easy to get right but when it works it works SO well...but you will need AMF - get up to about 500k and you'll be well set to take on tanks AND mages....
I liked UC so much I'm tempted to sell the Morg and go back to it....
the point is that the extra defensive dex doesn't help at all verses the ToA tanks who have enough + to completely ignore your evasion, or UC. Extra dex never lowers PTh, dbs lower PTh, then start in on dex.
If you match someone's dex and eliminate the PTh they have, you win. If instead you eliminate the two hits from dex, but only 1 hit from PTh is negated by your -80 something evasion you still got hit twice by a monster morg. Pit was still getting hit with more than 2 mil defensive dex and an evasion of 100+. You NEED dbs at the top.
August 18 2006 6:18 PM EDT
"At 400k Evasion and 100k HP, the Evader would have -75 to PTH, 500k DX, and 400k defensive DX. With DBs and Elvens, we'll assume he has 1 mil Defensive DX and a pretty big minus to PTH. "
I stated that he'd have DBs. The DBs would take away PTH and the Evasion would stack (not linearly, but it still stacks!) on top of that for a very large - to PTH.
I know the -PTH for Evasion alone will not negate all hits, but with the DBs and Elven gears, there'll be zero to occasional hits.
August 18 2006 6:19 PM EDT
I agree there with Novice...when my first UC guy Artful Dodger was going - with a UC of 104 - some of the bigger ToA tanks at the top, with the huge + on their Morgs and massive ToA PTH bonus were still getting in one hit per round. I'd dodge most of them but they were guaranteed that one strike. And when somebody is hitting for half a million per strike that's gonna hurt......
So couple it with very very big DBs and you will stand a better chance of surviving against those particular people....
What's the point of an AoI on the first two minions? When the E's die, the AoI targetting becomes moot, and the Evasion minion ends up doing nothing.
August 18 2006 9:39 PM EDT
But if you put it
Then they go through the two enchanters in ranged rounds, and then are stuck on the Evasion guy in melee.
The AoI on the tank is to keep him in back of the lineup, the AoI on the Evasion guy is to stack with his DBs.
OB, isn't that the point? ;)
"the Evasion guy would keep tanks at bay"
With him behind the Tank, and both with an AoI, the only thing that will be hitting him is FB/CoC/MM, none of which the Evasion helps with.
August 19 2006 12:59 PM EDT
"But if you put it
I know, I was re-working it. I'm saying put the Evasion guy in front.....I guess I put it the other way around to begin with just so that it would spell out TV ;)
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