Wiki: Steel Familiar HP (in General)

AdminNightStrike August 21 2006 11:56 AM EDT

The Wiki claims that a SF trains 20% into HP. Either this is incorrect, or the effects of naming are not what I previously thought. Every single fight analysis I conduct shows my familiar having 539084 HP at the start of the battle, 272584 of which are from AS. That leaves 266,500 HP trained on the familiar itself.

The familiar is level 1,027,000, and is named, implying a level of 1068080, which is under my max tattoo. 20% of this number, however, is far under 266,500. In fact, it's 213,616.

Can anyone enlighten me as to the error in my math? Also, can anyone conduct the same analysis with an unnamed familiar?

AdminNightStrike August 21 2006 12:25 PM EDT

My named tattoo went up by 1,000, and my hitpoints went up by 250 exactly. I'm close to the answer.

AdminNightStrike August 21 2006 12:37 PM EDT

Ok, so I just tried it with an unnamed fire familiar, and the hitpoints added are exactly 25%, not 20% as previously assumed.

So what, then, does naming a familiar do? My 1,028,000 SF would have to be level 1,067,000, not 1,069,120 as multiplying by 1.04 would imply. Are tattoos not boosted by 4%? Even if it was rounding down to the nearest thousand, that should be 1,069,000. Unless this is a facet of non-linear tattoo growth... Is it the experience in the tattoo that is increased by 4%, not the level?

AdminShade August 21 2006 2:27 PM EDT

haven't familiars been upgraded to have 25% HP of their level?

miteke [Superheros] August 21 2006 2:57 PM EDT

My recollection is that only experience earned is affected by naming.

bartjan August 21 2006 3:36 PM EDT

I'm pretty certain that the naming bonus applies to the tattoo's level.

AdminShade August 21 2006 4:04 PM EDT

It does, as well as the exp it gains.

Have you ever tested your fight against an opponent which didn't have ANY attacking capabilities?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] August 21 2006 4:13 PM EDT

named tats gain no more exp than unnamed tats (the sole exception being the RoE)

Flamey August 21 2006 4:56 PM EDT

isn't it, that they appear to level 4% faster?

but it just acts 4% more of its level.

e.g. 100 000 SF, if i name it, it will act as a 104 000.

correct me if i'm wrong.

bartjan August 21 2006 5:14 PM EDT

The shown level of a tattoo grows at the same rate, named or unnamed.
Their actual level is 4% higher than shown, and is 4% over the entire level, not just from the point of naming (which would not make any sense at all, just think of what would happen when the name expires).
The actual growth rate of a named tattoo is exactly the same as for an unnamed tattoo, because of the nice properties of a linear relation.

AdminNightStrike August 21 2006 6:58 PM EDT

The actual level of the tattoo is not 4% higher. It's what it would be if the tattoo had an additional 4% of experience. I have verified this rather heavily. I may still be wrong, but I'm pretty confident. I want to do one more test to finalize it all.

And regarding the 20 to 25% HP buff, I don't recall reading it anywhere, and it certainly wasn't put into the Wiki.

QBRanger August 21 2006 7:10 PM EDT

As my old mind remembers, familiars started out with 20 hp. Then Jon made them have 10% and later stated he raised the % to 20.

I have yet to find where he raised it to 25% but that seems to be the correct % they now have. I have searched old changelogs for confirmation of the 25% but have yet to find it. I can only find where he raised it to 20%.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 21 2006 7:26 PM EDT

"The actual level of the tattoo is not 4% higher. It's what it would be if the tattoo had an additional 4% of experience. I have verified this rather heavily. I may still be wrong, but I'm pretty confident. I want to do one more test to finalize it all. "

NS, if Familiar stats are coming out wrong for this, try testing a named/unmaed ToE for AMF backlash, as this is contant damage.

From what I remember, everything worked fine using naming as a 4% increase to level, irregardless of any XP a tattoo might have. :)

AdminNightStrike August 21 2006 8:57 PM EDT

I did. I'm going to do it again to make sure I didn't mess up the arithmetic. It's always possible I botched something like that up.

However, keep in mind that you then have to convert from the max damage effect to the spell level. For MM, I have typically found this to be 46.42% (level * 46.42% = max effect), but even that number may be off.

But see my numbers above. The HP always work out to be the exact same number, an even 266,750. This is an exact 25% of 1,067,000. Remember, we don't know how exactly tattoos gain experience.

QBOddBird August 21 2006 9:12 PM EDT

But is that particular tattoo named? If so, maybe there's 4% increase to HP and 4% increase to DD....

AdminNightStrike August 21 2006 9:14 PM EDT

Ah, finally. I found it. In the back of my mind, I knew that I remember reading something from Jon saying that a named tattoo had 4% more XP, which was reasonably close enough to 4% more level (which it is, but it's not exact). I now know where -- the old item naming page that has since changed to be inconsistent. I found this old thread:

in which Jon states:

"Not at all. It doesn't gain xp any faster; it just acts as though it has 4% more than it really does at any given time."

Then, in the wiki under blacksmith, there is:

"Naming tattoos result in a 4% increase of their "experience" (which makes them level around 4% faster also)."

That is wrong according to Jon's statement in terms of levelling speed, but correct in terms of what a named tattoo will gain. Further, in the wiki under Tattoos, there is this:

"Named tattoos have a 4% bonus to effect. Thus, they must be 4% smaller than your maximum tattoo level to gain levels."

That is totally wrong. It has no direct effect on "effect"; it has a direct effect on XP, which raises level, which raises "effect".

So, there are two wiki pages and the main item naming page that must be change. I'm sure there are other areas that are proliferating this misconception. Hopefully, we are all on the same page now.

AdminNightStrike August 23 2006 5:39 AM EDT

I changed the wiki. Can someone change the item naming page?

AdminShade August 23 2006 8:23 AM EDT

Only Jon can...

bartjan August 23 2006 8:43 AM EDT

What's wrong with the item naming page?

And NightStrike, when I visit it doesn't look like it's CB at all...

bartjan August 23 2006 8:46 AM EDT

"Naming armor increases its stats by 4%, whether this is AC (for most armor) or something else such as for tattoos or Displacement Boots."

"its stats" for a tattoo sounds like its level to me...

AdminNightStrike August 23 2006 2:19 PM EDT

First, bartjan, a named tattoo doesn't increase its level by 4%. It increases the XP trained on the tattoo, which is less than a 4% jump in level. The naming page (I believe) used to say something to that effect, and it doesn't any longer.

Second, if I botched up a link by not using relative linking, I apologize. I've done that several times now.

bartjan August 23 2006 2:34 PM EDT

What is the relation between this 'XP' thing and the Tattoo level?
Isn't it possible that the current wording on the item naming page is a clarification/improvement over the previous one?
Where are the results published of measurements between a named and an unnamed tattoo, so we can verify those results?

AdminNightStrike August 23 2006 2:47 PM EDT

I posted it already in this thread. You can verify it all yoruself, as it's fairly easy. First, familiars get 25% of their level as HP. This is exceedingly easy to verify, and it's very exact. Hint: Max tattoo makes it VERY easy to verify. Using a small unnamed tattoo well under max, I can see that it is indeed 25%.

Now, knowing that, you can derive the level of the tattoo knowing the HP it has -- divide by 25%. The result, you will find, is that when doing that for named tattoos, your derived level will be less than 4%. I posted all of this above -- my tattoo at level 1,028,000 was 1,067,000 after naming. This is not a 4% level increase, but a 4% XP increase.

Finally, I quoted Jon explaining this, that it's a 4% XP increase. I do recall somewhere (and I believe this used to be on the naming page, but I could be wrong) a followup statement from Jon that "this equates reasonably well to a 4% increase in level." However, it doesn't at high levels. That implies that, among other things, tattoos are non-linear.

AdminNightStrike August 23 2006 2:51 PM EDT

You know, if I had to guess..... I'd say that tattoo level : experience is the same as any stat's level : experience. This should be easy enough to verify. Perhaps I will do that tomorrow.

And to clarify, I think the "reasonably well" thing I am remembering comes from weapon allowance. Jon said something about the weapon allowance being reasonably close to 2/3 of XP. Now, granted, this is far from true... but discussing WA calculations is off-topic in this thread.

The point is that I most likely am mistaken that the item naming page was as I initially thought.

AdminNightStrike September 2 2006 1:03 AM EDT

Finally! I knew I was right!! It WAS on the naming page originally, and I found an old thread that referenced it and quoted it:

So there you go, bart... do you believe me now when I say that naming adds 4% to the XP trained into the tattoo instead of 4% to the level? My guess would be that tattoo level trains using the same XP cost curve that every other skill / stat uses, so a level 1,000,000 tattoo has the same amount of experience as a level 1,000,000 Fireball, for instance. I'd like to verify that.

However.... the important point is that my trusty memory was right -- the naming page was different, it articulated things better, it's been changed, and now that it's changed, people think that naming a tattoo adds 4% to the level.

Miandrital September 2 2006 1:43 AM EDT

good work nightstrike

AdminNightStrike September 2 2006 1:49 AM EDT

Thanks, Miandrital :)
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