Please tell me this is bugged: missing while having huge more DX (in General)

AdminShade September 20 2006 3:41 AM EDT

A fight of my character against {cb1}I Love You

Round 2 melee:
Melkor 'Arises in Might' stumbled swinging at tubby

Round 3 melee:
Melkor 'Arises in Might' swung wildly at tubby

Round 4 melee:
Melkor 'Arises in Might' mistimed his attack at tubby

R.I.P. Melkor 'Arises in Might'

HP: 100,000
ST: 655,523
DX: 474,037
Uses 2 handed weapon (BoNE)

HP: 1,035,000/1,035,000
ST: 827,160/100,000
DX: 1,008,832/500,000
DB equipped
Uses 2 handed weapon (MH)

I have a huge DX advantage and my opponent doesn't have any Evasion or Displacement Boots, WHY do I keep on missing every time???


QBJohnnywas September 20 2006 3:42 AM EDT

Look again. Tubby has evasion.

AdminShade September 20 2006 3:45 AM EDT

Ok he has evasion, even the top 5 evasion (less than 900k in effect)

Can such an evasion make a +75 Morgul Hammer with that huge DX gap?

QBJohnnywas September 20 2006 3:45 AM EDT

The number 5 evasion in the game as well...

QBJohnnywas September 20 2006 3:46 AM EDT

He has the number 5 plus Elven Boots, so I don't know how high it is, but that should make it pretty big.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] September 20 2006 3:46 AM EDT

the few fights I fought to check out my freetrained setup did seem to have evasion working better than I thought it should...but that could be due to a number of factors in my case...

AdminShade September 20 2006 3:49 AM EDT

I said that...

With such evasion does his DX get that bonus also, and making me have less DX than him in addition to removing (xx) from my weapon's + which would make it so low that I miss even my single hit? that's almost preposterous.

training a bit of PL => nerfing Axbow / Exbow drain possibly
using an AoI => nerfing Axbow / Exbow drain certainly
training a fair deal of evasion => making any weapon useless on offense

In other words, against a combination of this (AoI and Evasion) all weapons have become useless...

AdminShade September 20 2006 4:08 AM EDT

Also I have a ToA which adds another source of PTH...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 20 2006 4:58 AM EDT

With his named EBs and Evaison I tihnk his defensive dex at least equals your dex.

But I wouldn't think he would have enough pth reduce from Evasion alone to reduce the pth on your morg and ToA...

AdminShade September 20 2006 5:49 AM EDT

Precisely, I think that there must be something wrong here...

What is his evasion effect?

Is it Evasion (75) to counter all my + ?

Or is it Evasion (115) to counter even the (set as +40) PTH from my ToA?

bartjan September 20 2006 6:48 AM EDT

With the free unlearning, it shouldn't be that hard to figure out how much Evasion he has...

QBsutekh137 September 20 2006 7:06 AM EDT

My Evasion (10th in game) has an effect of 95.

His could easily be in the 100-105 range, just FYI.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 20 2006 7:32 AM EDT


Gee Wizz! (95)!

When did Evasion get buffed that much? I thought it was still hard to get over (50)...

Flamey September 20 2006 7:38 AM EDT

i got to (50) with 300k xp, if you wanted to know. when i was retraining, i put what i had in BL to Evasion and got (50).

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 20 2006 7:42 AM EDT

Evasion: 440,994/355,641 (77)

Flamey September 20 2006 7:45 AM EDT

how much xp is that?

i think EC got hammered, badly. to easy.

QBJohnnywas September 20 2006 7:46 AM EDT

Evasion: 488,477 (81) (approximately 6 million xp)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 20 2006 7:47 AM EDT

XP: 4,366,813

I'm using a 20HP minion with a ToJ behind him. All I've got trianed is Evasion.

All tank my level miss me, MM hits my ToJ. Decay does nothing, as it hits for 10HP then 5...

Of course, FB and CoC wipe the minion out instantly. :P

Flamey September 20 2006 7:57 AM EDT

my bad! Evasion not EC, EC is fine :P

/me thinks evasion will get nerfed...

QBsutekh137 September 20 2006 8:31 AM EDT

Changelog says nothing about an Evasion buff other than the multipliers in ranged... I assume training curve for it is unchanged?

Karn September 20 2006 8:40 AM EDT

My evasion is 956,481/759,112 (109).

AdminShade September 20 2006 8:51 AM EDT

So his 109 makes my chance to hit completely void...


QBsutekh137 September 20 2006 8:51 AM EDT

Karn, it has always been that way in CB2? The training curve allowing Evasion to get that high?

AdminJonathan September 20 2006 9:21 AM EDT

evasion curve has not changed

QBsutekh137 September 20 2006 9:24 AM EDT

Thanks, Jonathan!

It looks like an evasion effect of 100 or so is not all that hard to get to, but from there the curve starts getting steeper... An evasion level of 5,400,000 has an effect of 230, so it is pretty obvious that second hundred is a lot harder to get than the first. *smile*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 20 2006 9:27 AM EDT

Shade, what's the + on your MH? It's lower than 100 isn't it?

AdminShade September 20 2006 9:33 AM EDT

Yes, the + on my _named_ morgul hammer is 75.

So it is 78 in effect. plus the PTH from my ToA of course.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 20 2006 9:40 AM EDT

1,008,832 DEX +78 (+ToA pth) versus 956,481+474,037 (1,430,518) -109

No wonder you aren't hitting. ;)

AdminShade September 20 2006 9:44 AM EDT

1,008,832 DEX versus 956,481+474,037 (= 1,430,518)

+78 (+ToA pth) versus -109

This means that the PTH from my ToA is less than 31.

bartjan September 20 2006 9:51 AM EDT


Why are those 2 numbers added?

AdminShade September 20 2006 9:53 AM EDT

defensive DX?

bartjan September 20 2006 9:55 AM EDT

The 474k is DX.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 20 2006 9:56 AM EDT

Trained DEX is added to the defensive DEX Evasion provides (equal to it's level) to get the final defensive DEX score.

AdminShade September 20 2006 9:57 AM EDT

the other number is the level of the Evasion, which is turned in defensive DX, right=

bartjan September 20 2006 9:57 AM EDT

Only the left-over Evasion could affect his DX, and Shade's Morg+ToA already puts a big dent in that Evasion...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 20 2006 9:58 AM EDT

"This means that the PTH from my ToA is less than 31."

Not sure, there was some talk about needing 50 pth to get 100% chance of landing the second dex based hit, with pth after that starting the third plus pth only hits.

Your ToA could need to provide somewhere around 81...

What size is your ToA?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 20 2006 10:01 AM EDT

"Only the left-over Evasion could affect his DX, and Shade's Morg+ToA already puts a big dent in that Evasion..."

The defensive DEX given by your Evasion level is seperate to the pth reduction effect.

Evasion Level + Trained DEX = Total Defensive Dex. Which is compared to the attackers DEX. Then the Evasion pth reduction is taken from weapon pth and ToA pth. Any extra pth reduction is then also reduced from the attackers dex based chance to hit.


bartjan September 20 2006 10:02 AM EDT

Then both the Wiki and my memory from Jon's changelog is mistaken...

AdminShade September 20 2006 10:03 AM EDT


1,008,832 DEX versus 956,481+474,037 (= 1,430,518)

+78 (+ToA pth) versus -109

109 Evasion minus 78 PTH is 31

How much does a 1.2 mil ToA add to PTH? more or less than 31?

If less, then still a level 31 Evasion doesn't add that much DX to negate my hits completely...

Then why do I still miss 100%?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 20 2006 10:07 AM EDT


"Jonathan, December 31 2005 7:24 PM EST

Evasion gives bonus to effective DX on defense equal to the evasion level"

"Jonathan, December 31 2005 7:38 PM EST

logan: it doesn't matter; the evasion bonus is addative, not multiplicative"

bartjan September 20 2006 10:14 AM EDT

Can I say "overpowered" ?

AdminShade September 20 2006 10:28 AM EDT

Can I say 'rescale'? :p

j/k but indeed overpowered.

TrueDevil [AAA] September 20 2006 10:33 AM EDT

or 'MageBlender' once again ? ;) but seriously, I think it's quite ridiculous that evasion give this 'defensive dex' , at least make it half the level or 1/3.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 20 2006 10:41 AM EDT

Guys, Evasion has been giving defensive dex since December.

And as Jon has confirmed, Evasion hasn't been increased in power since then....

AdminShade September 20 2006 10:47 AM EDT

True evasion hasn't been given more power during the time.

However it only just now becomes clear that it perhaps is a bit too powerful perhaps?

QBBarzooMonkey September 20 2006 10:56 AM EDT

Can I say "free retrain week?"

This reminds me of last February, when we were starting to see (90+) UC for the first time ever... It's simply that no one has bothered taking evasion up that high before now. (50) is easy to achieve, and gives pretty decent effect at that level, so I don't think anybody ever bothered going much higher, except for Pitspawn...

We're just starting to see a lot of "really big" evasions now, so like Shade said, maybe we will finally start finding out that it's overpowered after all...

QBJohnnywas September 20 2006 11:03 AM EDT

I think the forum should automatically show overpowered as "overpowered".

I know why people label things as overpowered but for me that term only applies to things that cannot be countered in anyway; and then only if their effect far outweighs what it costs in money or xp to achieve.

I think the Morg's VA was overpowered, but since PL came in it no longer is. Evasion, like UC, is easily countered by mages. And as the recent slew of retrains show gets hugely expensive to go above about 120. When we have weapons of +170 around - and rising - at some point nobody will have an evasion that takes those weapons fully out.

Actually scrub my first statement. 'Overpowered' should be shown as '***********'. The only time when I won't argue with censorship!

AdminShade September 20 2006 11:16 AM EDT

Now with DX: 1,229,195/700,000 I hit him 1 time in melee. that's 200k DX added which makes a small difference indeed, but hardly enough.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 20 2006 11:17 AM EDT

Your Dex is still lower than his.

AdminShade September 20 2006 11:22 AM EDT

Now with DX: 1,669,195/1,100,000 DX I do 1 hit to him in melee, and i saw 1 double his which I can't really explain.

however I come to a new conclusion: Xbows suck no matter what they are...

Brakke Bres [Ow man] September 20 2006 11:23 AM EDT

Say hello to slings :)

bartjan September 20 2006 11:27 AM EDT

I already listed my 7M NW worth of firewood in the auctions, praying for Central Bank to bid on it...

AdminShade September 20 2006 11:33 AM EDT

Now this is strange:

I removed my firewood and suddenly I live longer, even long enough to actually kill his tank. Something which I couldn't do even with more HP (I removed 200k of it)

hmmm... isn't due to DX though, another fight made me miss the 2nd round of melee...

QBRanger September 20 2006 12:00 PM EDT

Maybe evasion is Jon's NW equalizer?

A trade of experience for the ability to neutralize NW.

Tezmac September 20 2006 12:06 PM EDT

It's not just firewood that causes that. I rented the 2nd largest ELB in the game a little bit back and I had to drop half of my fight list if I wanted to use it.

AdminShade September 20 2006 12:08 PM EDT

Then that amount of experience, some 6 million?, is able to neutralize:

[84x2800] (+75) 29,408,731

2799 * 7820 = $21,888,180

29,408,731 - 21,888,180 = $7,520,551 plus my entire NW of my ToA which is another 24 million..

hmmm :(

QBsutekh137 September 20 2006 12:10 PM EDT

And the defensive DEX aspect of Evasion doesn't really benefit mages all that much... Even if I have a 700K Evasion, that defensive dexterity is not going to make any difference against a tank with 1 million dexterity. Remember, in the dexterity game you just have to be bigger to get the extra 1 or 2 hits.

QBBarzooMonkey September 20 2006 12:23 PM EDT

From the ranged changelog:

G Beee, September 19 2006 2:34 PM EDT
Still 11 days left...

Okay, so only 9 now... And still 2 days (maybe more?) left in "free untrain week" - how many more "new and interesting" facts will we discover about skills and spells and how they interact with rares at really high levels? hmmm... December could end up being an even wilder changemonth...


AdminShade September 20 2006 12:32 PM EDT

sutekh, it is even worse,

That player/character can't attack me because I do double or triple hits against his character, due to his smaller tank.

I/my character can't attack him, because I can't hit him in melee due to his big Evasion.

What's the fun in that?

Miandrital September 20 2006 8:55 PM EDT

"Then that amount of experience, some 6 million?, is able to neutralize:

[84x2800] (+75) 29,408,731

2799 * 7820 = $21,888,180

29,408,731 - 21,888,180 = $7,520,551 plus my entire NW of my ToA which is another 24 million..

hmmm :("

Based off the cost of a new minion, 6 mil exp could either be $18 million cb or $30 million cb. But I understand your woes (not that I am particulary sympathetic, I like my mages =P).

Karn September 20 2006 9:44 PM EDT

The exp it cost me is 9,947,596 and that is just for the 760,554. My EBs bring them up the rest of the way.

Mikel September 21 2006 12:41 AM EDT

Evasion: 900,805 (106)
Ex: 11,911,110
I'll be training Dex next.

Mikel September 21 2006 12:52 AM EDT

Evasion: 1,261,127/900,805 (123)
Just thought I would toss this in there.

QBsutekh137 September 21 2006 1:12 AM EDT

Shade, that is the _very_ definition of fun in this game. *smile*

AdminShade September 21 2006 2:30 AM EDT

Perhaps you think that's fun, but I don't like cold wars :p

Colonel Custard [The Knighthood] September 21 2006 6:58 AM EDT

Evasion: 440,994/355,641 (77)

That's ridiculous. UC just barely hits 56 at that level.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] September 21 2006 7:17 AM EDT

But UC gives you a weapon, plus Evasion. It's bound to be lower.

Miandrital September 21 2006 2:45 PM EDT

And the fact that UC is boosted by items directly, whereas evasion is only boosted by elvens. which UC is too.

AdminShade September 21 2006 4:03 PM EDT

UC has two possible boosts from items, therefor the Evasion bonus is lower ;)

AdminShade September 21 2006 6:25 PM EDT

Ilúvatar defeated {cb1}I Love You (Damage, Inc.) after 7 rounds of combat
Ilúvatar {cb1}I Love You
Ranged Hits / Shots / Avg Damage 0 / 0 / 0 0 / 0 / 0
Melee Hits / Blows / Avg Damage 8 / 8 / 375,913 1 / 5 / 71,672

This was the problem...
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