Single tank: how would you design it (in General)
September 25 2006 6:05 PM EDT
Conditions: everything is possible.
You can choose from any and all items, any legal combination possible.
Just curious how you would build it and with what stat/skill/spell experience input.
September 25 2006 6:10 PM EDT
477 AC -(wall armor with AoAC)
1/4 HP 1/4 STR 1/2 AMF
Weapon option #1:
Using as large of a VB as possible. No ranged weapon.
Weapon option #2:
As large of a SoD as possible, with very large Ex Shot
September 25 2006 6:15 PM EDT
Helm of Ecthelion
Using a Vorpal Blade and a large Elven Long Bow
Training Archery, 1/2 HP 1/4 STR and 1/4 DEX
September 25 2006 6:22 PM EDT
Training 1/10 AMF, then 1/3 HP, 1/2 UC, 1/2 STR.
Not trying to be a major power, but that'd be my fun tank.
Train BL to 20% beforehand, then 1/2 HP 1/2 STR. Looking to score close to 400 AC. Hopefully MH would absorb more HP than tanks could do in damage.
i would make a UC Tank with
AoI or AoM
For ranged i would use a SoD or an exbow
I would train about 1/6 AMF on it, the remainder goes to HP, STR and a small amount to dex.
like 2/6 hp 2/6 str and 1/6 dex.
September 25 2006 6:51 PM EDT
ToA tank, very big morg, all xp split 40/40/20 HP/Evasion/AMF.
1/3 ST from that
I would use archery and give tank base protection.
Oh, and I would use ELB and... ELS.
I want to be SNK3R when I grow up...
but it's all about fighting tanks with XP and Mages with NW...
Evasion is a monster when trained heavily, and should see some serious play in the next few months, I think Pitspawn had it right with his tatless monster evasion tank.
You beat me to it novice i was gonna say Pits tank as well :-)
UC tank with an Elb or SoD (not used an elb yet so dont know how good it is)
UC/ HP/ AMF/ Dex and either VA or protection (or nothing if it gets spread to thin)
not sure what id train them to but AMF to atleast give a bit of backlash against base Decays
Would use Stregth and Dex while small making use of the CGI, when bigger/if things got tougher id switch to a ToA
CGI gives about 200k worth of exp (+10) UC when the ToA would give more in Exp etc i ditch the cgi all togther and train more UC (or consider adding another minion and getting BL)
September 26 2006 1:07 AM EDT
Yes, but the Combat Gi also increases the Evasion imparted by UC by 1/3. In ranged, that increases it to 3/3, and in melee, 2/3. That's more than enough to convince me to equip it over the ToA.
September 26 2006 6:16 AM EDT
As Johnny said,
ToA tank, very big morg, all xp split 40/40/20 HP/Evasion/AMF.
September 26 2006 3:58 PM EDT
Miandrital: where's the DX in your design?
Wildthing: sounds solid, but does it have enough damage in melee?
BBQ: no DX? and again, no DX? why Exbow if you don't train DX?
Henk: Why the Exbow instead of the Axbow?
Johnny: that's all, no other items?
Psywolf: simple yet solid build, uses items to enhance DX and ST to do what the tank needs to do, damage. No special protection against Decay though?
Novice, edyit: care to enlighten on that tank?
The Death Company: this sounds quite complicated, any elaboration? Also you seem to contradict yourself in the tips you give...?
G_Beee: yet again, no other items?
Hmmm still not really convinced :D
September 26 2006 4:02 PM EDT
What other items do I need? I could equip say, Tulkas, Elven Boots, AoF and maybe a SoD; but if I do the stats right I should be able to work it without them.
And then all income can go into the weapon. All the rest is just icing on the very large life sucking cake....
Henk: Why the Exbow instead of the Axbow?
Why? UC grants evasion, maybe the axbow would be a better choice.
September 26 2006 4:03 PM EDT
Well, that rest might just be all what I need, and most what I have ;)
September 26 2006 4:18 PM EDT
A single tank has a huge disadvantage in that to use a tattoo you have to forgo armor and cloak. AND you cannot use a MgS.
So IMO there are 2 options.
Forgo the tattoo.
Wear either heavy AC armor to keep damage down or wear:
TSA, EC, EG, EB, MgS and HOE
Train your stats to keep your dex in the range of those your fighting, pump up HP and make Str about equal to your modified dex.
Use the following tattoo---SF
Why you ask? It gives another "kill" slot and is another good source of damage.
Equip EB, EG, HOE and possibly a MS for AC.
Train Dex to be above those TOA tanks you fight, put most into HP and enough Str to do damage around those TOA tanks you see.
Now, Train AMF to about 1/2 to 2/3 your MPR in levels.
Train protection to about 54k level which is 20 effect.
Now, BL or evasion or archery"
Evasion-no way dude. You need to be offensive esp for those mages your going to fight. As I say: " you can dodge and arrow, but you cannot dodge a fireball"
Archery-Leaning against it. I think GA would murder you and evasion is a problem as well
So----BL is the skill I would use.
Use the SF to do damage in missile rounds till it dies from AMF or damage and then use a Bth or MH in melee.
I would not use a TOE, due to the increased damage capacity of tanks. Also a TOE vs FB mages does not help much since the damage is so concentrated the TOE will be overwhelmed.
Now you say, what about the TOA: I think the str and dex you get from the TOA can be great, however Str can only help so much. 3 or 4 hits from your MH doing 500k each vs a 20 HP enchanter is over kill. Titrate your str to what you need to win who you fight. With the TOA, your putting a certain amount into str and dex automatically. Use Elven Gear for AC and dex, titrate your Str to what you need.
The ROS is a multiminion tattoo. The RoBF is useless unless you want to fight FB mages in the beginning to max your rewards, then ink it to the SF.
The FF is deadly to you in melee and the IF is useless till melee, which a single minion may not make.
September 26 2006 4:19 PM EDT
Are we maybe planning on starting over Shade?
September 26 2006 4:25 PM EDT
Yes, we maybe are planning to start a single minion tank.
Henk/OB, why train AMF with your single tank using a MgS? ;)
About the decay, if it becomes a problem simply get a near base AMF. Not a difficult problem. If you don't want to waste the 5k exp to neutralize a decay, then use seekers. Either way, no big deal.
September 27 2006 10:42 AM EDT
Doesn't the Mage Shield negate the casting of AMF?
September 27 2006 12:35 PM EDT
Good call GL - guess I wouldn't be training that AMF. ~_^
Shade - on the UC tank, because UC gives a lot of PTH. Maybe 100k DX so he could hit doubles....but just look at my UC guy. He has practically no DX vs. Tanks that have decent DX, but they still can't hit him and he still does his damage on them.
On the Armored Tank, I put 'MH +200' on there. *shrugs* I don't see a need for DX when Evasion's going to cut that advantage short, so why not just go all PTH over what they are evading?
I thought Evasion from UC was only given from trained exp not taken from exp given by items BBQ
UC means you can use a ranged weapon and fight in the first round of melee as youve got no melee weapon as such to equip
equiping a cgi puts UC straight to +10 (50k exp for a bit of armour so its better than a ToA to start as you can upgrade it to improve AC)
If im wrong about only trained UC its even better with the evaison
that would mean you could put 50k of trained exp into other stuff with out having to up your base UC (whiich is a pretty good weapon with not much networth)
at some point a ToA would give more Exp (not sure of the size) than the cgi to stregth and DEX so it makes sense to put a ToA on and then train UC like mad (but you would still have HG's etc boosting it)
The cgi also lowers spells so if you'd get a boost to AMF (if you went with VA or Prot them to) which gives more exp free exp sort of as they are more effective so you can not train them for a bit
I dont know much about weapons, damage and upgrading them etc but to give up a round of damage to have BL and use a ranged weapon (or archery and a melee weapon) so id want another minion to help suck up a bit of damage or boost mine so the missed round doesnt matter
*please note i am newish to the game and only i would listen to my own advice XD but i hope ive explained it a bit better
(and i just double checked the cgi gives +10 but the equivilent of 50k exp not 200k)
TDC, UC only gives Evasion from trained XP, not the UC increases HG or Gi give (as they pump the level up sky high!). But Dex modifiers from items (and I'm sure the AoF) also modifies the Evasion UC gives.
The Gi is special, on top of the +10 to UC effect it gies, it also gives you an extra amount of Evasion. Including defensive dexterity.
How this Evasion stacks with the UC skill based Evasion is still a mystery. The Gi could be classed asskill based, in which case it's great, or item based in which case it's 'meh'.
September 27 2006 12:49 PM EDT
No, pretty simple.
UC gives an inherent Evasion of 2/3 its level in Ranged, and 1/3 in melee. So if you have a 300k UC, it is a 200k Evasion in Ranged, 100k in melee.
The Combat Gi increases this by 1/3: Therefore in Ranged, it improves to 3/3. Your 300k UC is 300k Evasion. Likewise, in melee, it improves to 2/3. Your 300k UC is 200k Evasion.
Which is why the Gi is a far superior choice than a ToA for a UC fighter.
Thanks BBQ id miss read that (its even better than i thought then).... in that case add the Exp from UC and evasion and when the ToA gives more id switch and pump UC
September 27 2006 1:03 PM EDT
I prefer the ToA for a single uc minion. My guys (Artful Dodger - which I got to top ten for about five minutes before those mage teams spoiled my fun - and Jack Crow) were designed to be a bit more aggressive. So I used the ToA to be able to pump the UC as high as I could. With Helms, Elven Boots and a combination of big AMF and big ELB (forget the ax and exbows, tanks can't touch you, so why would you want to waste time weakening them?) I was able to take on the likes of Novice's very big single FB mage for a while. I couldn't have got him as strong as I did without the ToA, my xp would have been spread too much.
And as for evasion? Well the only tank teams who could actually hit me were those with the massive PTH weapons, who were guaranteed a hit. But that's all they got per round, even with 100 or over on the plus. The built in evasion in UC with a ToA was good enough to take on almost every tank team in the game and win.
So Gi? Personally I wouldn't on a single minion UC guy....
Sorry GL i missed your reply but thats what i thought until BBQ said .. i re read wiki and cant see it there
but surely at some point the strength being doubled and dex getting another 3rd from a ToA would mean that if you put kept the CGI you would be getting less exp than you could be getting
rubbish example below
CGI gives 50k trained UC exp (and i will say 50k trained exp into evasion in ranged .. not sure really as i need to read a bit more about it) that gives a total of 100k trained exp
If youve got your strength to 150k trained and dex to 150k putting a ToA on would give 75k and 50k exp = 125k of exp which means youve gained an extra 25k you could then put into UC and taking the CGI would also boost AMF and any other spells trained
September 27 2006 1:27 PM EDT
"Grants Evasion equal to one-third of pre-bonus Unarmed Combat" - From the wiki
And TDC, where do you keep coming up with the Idea that CGI gives exp to UC? It just adds a flat +10 bonus to UC, which means that it would increase in effectiveness as UC gets larger. And as OB said, the evasion is very useful these days so I believe UC monks should wear CGI, elvens and HG
train a base UC minion .. put a CGI on it
this is my one minion with just the trained UC
Unarmed Combat: 27,936 (4)
with a CGI on
Unarmed Combat: 78,379/27,936 (14)
thats 50k increase ... not a clue how much that is in raw exp before training
so my thinking was the ToA at some point would give more than that?
but ... now youve said (i didnt think of it at a higher leve, and will check nowl) that +10 could be worth a huge amount of exp
Unarmed Combat: 110,556 (19) non cgi
Unarmed Combat: 177,632/110,556 (29) with cgi
so the cgi gives 67k exp (a gain of 17k)
I was thinking that at some point a 50% boost to strength and 33% to Dex would give more value than the equivelent exp the CGI gives
The amount of level increase given by the Gi is the amount needed if you were to train your UC to the level it would be at +10.
I hope that made sense! ;)
BoM not MgS. MgS don't help much and the tank should be able to out damage any mage.
September 27 2006 3:40 PM EDT
MgS doesn't help much? Every + is 1% DD blocking right?
Also what does a BoM help more? +10 BoM is only 10% more ST, which is just a small bit of extra damage...
4X ST = 2X damage
10% ST then is 5% more damage?
GW, single tanks with ranged are really weak vs CoC teams with evasion and weak vs single FB mages with evasion. So you need AMF or the MGS
September 27 2006 4:22 PM EDT
Henk, in his original reply, he did mention AMF, while using the BoM. So that's quite valid and a point you missed (making your reply a tad less useful alas)
September 27 2006 4:48 PM EDT
TDC - it currently adds 145k EXP to my UC. So yeah, pretty useful.
Psy, lets just say that with the measly bonus that a BoM gives you to strength, still wouldn't be enough considering there is a penalty for using a 2 handed weapon and a BoM together. Taken from the Wiki "Bonus 1% to ST for each + (1/3 the bonus is used with a 2 handed weapon)." And under most circumstances, the MH would be the first choice for a Single Tank.
All in all a MgS IMO would actually help out more than a BoM. you can get a +35 MgS for a little over 2.4 million.... Thats a reduction of 35% to DD spells cast at you. A +24 BoM costs a little over 2.2 million. The BoM might help alot with Armor class but the reduction of DD spells by the MgS is still highly prized, especially if you are running only one minion and have no other way to lessen the DD blow you will take.
September 30 2006 12:18 PM EDT
a BoM definitely isn't an option due to it's ST not giving any real bonus.
A BoM of +30 would only give +10% ST...
September 30 2006 12:43 PM EDT
Ok now another comparison:
Armor set 1:
HoE +12 (named)
This set gives me 48% ST bonus and 43% DX bonus.
This armor set has a total AC of  (+83) this blocks 26.88% physical damage and 17.43% magical damage.
This armor set also has 40% (average of the 3 rounds) additional magic damage blocking in ranged and say little over 25% in melee.
So I then block around 27% Physical Damage and between 42%(melee) and 65%(average of ranged) Magical Damage.
This gives me 37% bonus HP vs Physical damage and between 72% and 186% bonus HP vs Magical damage.
At 90k MPR I should have the following stats:
HP: 70,000 (95900 vs Physical and 200200 vs Magical damage)
ST: 103,000 / 70,000
DX: 100,000 / 70,000
Armor set 2:
HoE +12 (named)
For the Tattoo of Augmentation, I assume it's level is far far greater than my max tattoo (considering my ToA is now 1.2 mil+ in level)
My max tattoo for 90k MPR would be around 100k so I will use 100k as being the tattoo's level.
This gives me a 50,000 bonus ST and 33,333 bonus DX (I'll use 33k as a rounded number though)
This additionally gives me 25% bonus ST and 34% bonus DX (35%-1% from the HoE)
This set of armor has a total AC of  (+48) this blocks 14.3% Physical damage and 10% Magical damage
This gives me 16.7% bonus HP vs Physical damage and 11% bonus HP vs Magical damage
Again I will train all stats evenly giving me the same beginning stats.
at 90k MPR I should then have the following stats:
HP: 70,000 (81690 vs Physical and 77700 vs Magical damage)
ST: 150,000 / 120,000
DX: 138,000 / 103,000
When comparing these final stats then I see that I will have:
a rough 17% more HP against Physical damage and 157% more HP against Magical damage with Armor set 1. (or less with Armor set 2 of course)
a rough 45% more ST with Armor set 2.
a rough 38% more DX with Armor set 2.
The almost 50% more ST will make me deal a rough 25% more damage.
The almost 40% more DX will make me able to hit opponents more easily.
However with less HP, I am surely doomed to die against heavy damage dealing opponents.
retraining possibilities to be calculated soon...
MgS or BoM.
Well, I know I am an idiot apparently and know nothing about strategy but remember BoM= helpful against everything.
MgS= Helpful against 1/3 of the enemies in game, far rarer to find, and makes you WEAKER against tanks because less AC. Not only that, but neutralizes any EO or ED you would ever think of training.
Just trying to think logically there.
Oh, and I hate MH, I would definitely go VB or MAYBE ELS.
IMHO, there is no reason for a BoM to be a power shield. The MgS is so much more pwerful and useful than a BoM. Really, the BoM has been replaced by the easier to use AoM.
Sorry Shade! ;) Did miss this! :P
First, what skill will be used with both armour sets?
October 3 2006 8:22 AM EDT
atm no skill at all, but in both sets Bloodlust can be used.
i.e. take in account that both versions have the same skill trained.
I meant skill and EO.. :(
You thinking of Training AMF?
October 3 2006 8:23 AM EDT
on the armor set without MgS, yes.
on the armor set with MgS, of course not.
>_< Doh! Not thinking there.. ;)
Using BL on both.
AS2 has 47,000 more Str, meaning you would have to train 9,400 more into BL to keep it at 60%, but you have about 25% extra Damage. And more pth.
You will also have to train AMF to off set the Magic damage reduction from AS1 (42-65% compated to 10%). Sucking up more XP.
If you equal out the XP spent, AS1 would be able to train more into STR/DEX than AS2 which also gains 48%/43%, compared to AS2 25%/34%.
Maybe this will let you even out the 25% damage bonus.
You can't reach the PTH bonus of AS2 though, but AS1 has better damage mitigation.
October 25 2006 5:36 PM EDT
All is going well so far.
Though ELB does way more damage than Axbow.
Perhaps I will even choose to not use any ranged weapon at all...
No. I just can't advise that. Tis like choosing CoC over MM.
You do what you think best, but there is only a one round difference.
An Axbow is not supposed to do a large amount of physical damage. It's supposed to drop the opponents stats to a bearable level.
If you're a single tank, you should focus on ranged.
If there were no restrictions other than you plan to use a single minion for the characters entire existance, then I would set it up as follows:
Ranged Weapon: named SoD
Ranged Ammo: named exp shots
Melee Weapon: named Morg
Body Armor + Cloak: ToE
I would train HP=ST=DX most of the time, with DX specialization for some of the time with very little AMF to protect from base Decay.
I would train evasion.
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