Got to love those seekers. (in General)


QBRanger November 13 2006 10:53 PM EST

Vs Freed and his character with all that NW and low MPR

My little Pony hit The Grid with Platypus Phlegm [1281426] in round 1

same in round 2, my mage dies.

Got to love those disposable items that make all my MPR useless!!!

BTW, I have 57 evasion and 151 named DBs.

Got to love those seekers.

QBRanger November 13 2006 10:59 PM EST

And please spare me the PL crud. nobody has enough PL or hp to live through that onslaught.

And the fact mage equipment such as AG/COI/and Corn all now do NOT give AC makes it harder for a mage to live.

AdminNightStrike November 13 2006 11:04 PM EST

DB of 151 should be effectively 158 with the naming, which is an evasion that's well off of Shade's chart. It has to be at least a million. That plus your 57, which is tripled in Ranged.... that's a big evasion.

Perhaps EC would help?

QBsutekh137 November 13 2006 11:06 PM EST

Heh, try my Evasion:

960,000/800,000 (109)

newfreed struggles a little more with that, but can still beat me with enough frequency that I can't keep him on my fight list.

Then again, it _is_ a +180 bow, and that is a rather large bundle of defensive arrows (wait, we are talking about freed, so I guess he can afford to pack them 24x7 *smile*) So, is it really that unfair?

Am I missing something that seekers have to do with it? I'm assuming the arrows are pumped to high heaven on plus, and the bow is +180. I'll admit I was rather surprised he could hit me in Round One without the use of a ToA, but I can't really jump to that conclusion without knowing how pumped those arrows are, yes?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 13 2006 11:07 PM EST

ec would in this case completely demolish the "onslaught"

but I do think now that archery is fixed, we might see a damage reduction...
or a buff to evasion (since it really never needed a nerf anyway)

QBsutekh137 November 13 2006 11:12 PM EST

Let's not forget we are talking about a 135 _million_ dollar bow. Aberrations like that are bound to seem unbalanced. I am as demoralized as anyone, but it is hard to say it is unbalanced yet, especially before we know what kind of pth those arrows are packing. I'm not sure how I am getting hit in the first round.

Seekers have always been the bane of teams powered by a single mage. I don't really think that's new.

noneedforthese November 14 2006 2:35 AM EST

Mmm, yeah, for tanks around my mpr, whether i can beat them or not is highly inversely correlated with wether they have seekers or not... With some dudes, I have to remove/re-add them to my fightlist as they run out of of seekers/buy new ones :P
But hey, mage teams are supposed to be cheap, so you get what you paid for :D

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 14 2006 3:01 AM EST

How about making AoI's upgradable, and compare their plus to Seeker plus to see whether seekers break through the invisibility?

PoisoN November 14 2006 8:30 AM EST

Welcome to the club, Ranger. More and more players around me switch between normal and seekers arrows (same for mage - mithril shield) few times a day.


Amulet of Conversion. Each + trebels 1% of its owners DD to archer and tank damage, reduced damage vs. mages & enchanters.

Tank Shield. It absorbs a minimum of 1% ranged and close combat damage per enchantment level. This reduction is capped at 50% of the damage dealt.

QBRanger November 14 2006 8:35 AM EST

Poison,

I feel your pain as well.

You try to make a new innovative character using DD spells since most everyone uses a tank and what do you get---a DISPOSABLE item that changes the whole battles. Allows characters wtih less then 1/2 your MPR nearly beat you (and some would have if I did not use 400AC and a TOE). Yes, Freed has a massive Elb. So, let him hit my wall with it. I have massive armor. But a simple disposable item negates all that NW I have in my armor. What a crock.

It would be so nice for mages to get some loving. Perhaps a disposable item we can equip only for defense that lets our DD spells target those tank with the highest Dex/Str.

Tezmac November 14 2006 9:39 AM EST

I'm usually very pro-mage, but this is one of those occasions where I'm disinclined to stick up for you. Your AC is 105, slap a shield on that guy! I'll loan you my kite shield +29 to try if you want. You had to have thought out ahead of time that this was the one mile-wide gaping hole in your strategy. The only way anyone was ever going to get past your wall was with FB or with seekers, and he just happens to have a HUGE bow. Nothing seems wrong to me.

Kong Ming November 14 2006 9:50 AM EST

I think its pretty fair with such a huge a bow and the use of seekers. You should try to train up your evasion, its pretty small for your MPR. I'm already at 51 and my MPR is only 1/4 of yours.

QBsutekh137 November 14 2006 10:07 AM EST

Tez, a shield isn't going to help that mage, anything less than 250 AC won't help that mage.

However, I don't think that's the point. Seekers have always sought. And 135 million has always been able to build a box that makes everyone go "oh well, crap" (why do you think Todd-Spydah named their bow "You Lose" *smile*).

I don't want to give mages a "cheap" way out. I want mages to be given some balance so they can do what they do best -- shoot magic and kill things. That's why I have been on the bandwagon of wanting better DEs for mages. I _know_ big tanks are going to kill me in two rounds. They are _supposed_ to be able to to that because I don't have enough AC and don't use a ToE. I just want to be able to kill them fast too.

I'd still really like to know the + on those arrows so I can figure out why newfreed can even land single hits on my mage when I have an effective 109 * 3 = 327 Evasion against him. That should quite easily swallow the pth on that +180 bow, he's not packing a ToA, and the defensive dex from the evasion (along with the Evasion surplus itself) should nullify his nominal dexterity. Unless I am missing something about Archery that gives some other extra advantage in the first round...?

chuck1234 November 14 2006 10:09 AM EST

couple of days ago there was talk in chat of a massive seeker 11x3000+500 or something, maybe that's the one doing all the damage.

Godpanda November 14 2006 10:10 AM EST

Platypus Phlegm [6x9010] (+180) worth $135,914,965 owned by {cb1}Freed (newfreed)

Bam. There goes DB's.

DX makes up the evasion.

Ranger, you know I am a big supporter of you in general. But this -particular- case has little merit... IF what you were talking about is it hitting... but your not.

In this case, it's very simple. No amount of money, exp, effort, or strategy gets rid of seekers. With the addition of AoI, MM can't effectively deal with tanks.

So heres the situation, any tank using seekers can auto hit mages. You can say there aren't alot of seekers in the game, that they are an effective part of the game, but something needs to be done. In a game where the MPB is 1.9 BILLION, you can't give a team an auto way to hit.

Also, a few of you quoted the fact that this is just one massive bow. Granted, it is. But the next 4 aren't toothpicks.

Either give a way for mages to take auto damage, or do something to seekers.

QBsutekh137 November 14 2006 10:10 AM EST

I don't think his whole bundle could be of that caliber -- not even freed has that much money. *smile*

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 14 2006 10:13 AM EST

Those arrows would only have to be +60 (+180) to nullify your evasion...
and remember there is a large randomness around both evasion and PTH, so he could be high on the PTH while you're low on the evasion.

QBRanger November 14 2006 10:13 AM EST

First of all, I did test things with my AC up to 245 and still took over 1M damage per hit. To get my AC up farther requires equipping items that lower my DD spell far too much.

Second, why are mages at such a disadvantage. Tanks have massive damage already. Would it be different if my mage was a tank and I still have that 400 AC wall.

Third, Sut has over 109 evasion effective level and gets hit in round 1 of missile. All it takes is 2 hits and my mage is toast. Remember that DD spells are vulnerable to AMF and every xp point into evasion is less xp into your DD spell. Imagine if tanks had to spend valuable xp into a skill to prevent being nuked by a, yes I will say it yet again, DISPOSABLE item.

QBRanger November 14 2006 10:13 AM EST

What about my mage crystal that lets me target that highest Dex/Str tank. Disposable of course, letting me bypass other characters mage wallls. O, I forget, there are character out there with mage walls, that lower mage damage far more than my AC wall does to their physical damage. O, and let us not forget the TSA that most all non TOA tanks use, further reducing magic damage.

But my AG's or COI do NOT give me any help vs physical damage.

Yes, it is a glaring hole in my strategy. I guess any mage character has a glaring hole, Just as Sutekh with his 109 evasion how glaring a hole it actually is.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 14 2006 10:14 AM EST

"when I have an effective 109 * 3 = 327"

Don't work like that sute! ;)

The ranged bonus is on level, your new effect will be much lower than 109 * 3 due to the curve on Evasion.

But you should have a load of defensive Dex! :p

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 14 2006 10:20 AM EST

The whole point of seekers is to allow clan fighters a little leeway if they are silly enough to try running a tank team. Todd even used to sponsor people attacking a char (that was using big slayers to defend against him) and losing just to use up the expensive ammo. Losing to a char using specialty ammo isn't anything to be ashamed of...

QBsutekh137 November 14 2006 11:45 AM EST

I don't follow you, GL...109 _is_ the Evasion level. What else could it be? Are you saying the experience gets multipled by 3x? I disagree. If that were the case, I guarantee I would be getting hit in round one by newfreed (and many, many others), because even times three, the most my evasion would end up at would be, say 150. Tons of folks would be able to nullify that and then have the dexterity for singe and even double hits left over, yes?

Can you confirm what you are saying?

QBsutekh137 November 14 2006 11:52 AM EST

I do agree with Ranger on this, I think I am just more resigned (try bringing a single mage up all the way from scratch, Ranger...it's frustrating *grin*).

I do think MPR means too little in the game, especially for lesser-numbered-minion teams. There are soooo many advantages to having multiple minions, and it seems like more every day (amulets being the latest). The more items there are that can be used on more than one minion, the more the four-minion teams benefit (especially ones with lots of cash). Tack on the RoS, PL, auras, etc. and it's just...frustrating, as I said.

Next, mages get lesser love on the item and enchantment front. There are no mage-specific defensive enchantments. Only two items boost DD level. There are armors that specifically nullify magic attacks.

The only advantage to magic is that it is free. Because of that, magic seems to be screwed on every other front, especially in the face of wealthy teams. Even if I had a ton of money to spend, what would I spend it on? Well, actually, I would spend it on two more minions, but I'm a special case. *smile*

Tezmac November 14 2006 11:56 AM EST

Hmm, I always thought GL's analysis was the case.
If your evasion is 100,000 (50), as an example, in the first round of ranged it would be equivalent to 300,000 (x), not x (150). But then again, I've been wrong plenty of times before!!

QBRanger November 14 2006 12:02 PM EST

Funny, I thought it was as Sut thought, but looking at the battles, it likely is at Tez and GL think.

When will mages finally catch a break?

QBsutekh137 November 14 2006 12:09 PM EST

OK, so once I get some BA accrued, and I fight newfreed, you all agree that newfreed should never miss me, right? At least not in Round One. With a +180 bow, the pth on the seekers, and substantial dexterity, my evasion should not be enough to evade if it is merely a 3 million experience level. I'm not sure, but I a 3 million level evasion wouldn't be over 150 effect, yes?

I'll let you know what I find out. Depending on how long Archery has been broken, I just find it hard to believe that it is not the effect, because since before yesterday, not a single tank has laid a single shot on my mage in Round One. I am pretty darn sure of that. Even Conundrum was never able to, and that was how I was able to beat him before he got a second minion.

QBsutekh137 November 14 2006 12:30 PM EST

OK, I really need to pay more attention to when folks are talking about stuff... Pretty sure GL is right about the level being multiplied, not the effect (and pretty sure it was all discussed before *smile*).

In 6 fights against newfreed, the number of hits in round 1, 2:

1,1
1,1
1,1
0,1
1,1
0,1

So, my evasion is just big enough to make him start missing once in a while when multiplied by 3. The large evasion plus defensive dex make him unable to land a double hit, and even miss entirely once in a while. In round two, with the lower evasion multiplier, he always gets a hit, but doesn't have enough dexterity left over to get a double (I was somewhat surprised by that, maybe he would if I tested more, I'm tired of losing. *smile*)

So, basically Evasion is a "get it big and that's it". It would be absolutely stupid of me to train it any higher, at least in regards to it meaning more in ranged.

That sucks. Let me break down the problem with mages from a different angle: there's nothing left to invest in once you get big.

DD: Yeah, I love spending 16 points per experience for paltry gains in damage! It's still a viable choice, just not a very competitive one.
EO: Yep, I am investing in that -- DM. It's the only thing left to invest in, and I'm doing so with both minions right now. Hopefully they can get big enough for me to add a few more targets in 3-6 months.
ED: Nope, nothing that could help me. What, I should start pumping AS? GA is going to help with lesser minions? GS/Haste/VA, all tank-specific. Prot? Sure, base.
HP: Yeah, that will help me not be buried by the second arrow to the tune of 2 MILLION IN THE HOLE! HP is worthless on my team right now, regardless of minion. HP only works for Walls.
STR: Er, tank-specific.
DEX: Er, tank-specific.
Evasion: As I have just shown, no use going higher, and it's probably too high already. I'll still get spanked by 1.8 million-damage arrows in rounds one and two. Other skills? Funny, they are ALL TANK SPECIFIC. Go figure.

So what's left for me? Strategy ideas? And no, "get more minions" doesn't count. In fact, it's the lamest of answers. Being forced to have four minions is shameful. Absolutely shameful. Even if I bought a third minion, what would I do? More DM? Spend millions on trying to build a wall, just to have my main damage dealer die anyway against Seekers (ala Ranger)?

It would appear the only viable course, at this high level, is tanks for offense, and ToE or RoS for defense. RoS teams are as exciting as watching paint dry (sorry, Tez, you know I love ya), and tanks are the playground of the rich.

Huzzah.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 14 2006 12:46 PM EST

The last couple months spoiled ya'll...

Unless you've matched the PTh of the bow with dbs, and trained evasion to a level where your defensive dex starts to compare to your opponents dex (after multipliers), I don't see any room to complain. Ranged damage will likely take a hit now that archery actually works, but you had two and a half months of living high on the hog. A half a month of abuse isn't that bad...

Sut: you need dbs, period. I realize that matching NW with NW is passe around here, but I don't think it's too much to ask considering you spent 28 mil on a remora training DM...

QBOddBird November 14 2006 12:50 PM EST

Feeling the USD game, eh?


He obviously wouldn't be hitting those massive numbers without huge X on his bow, and wouldn't be hitting at all without the massive PTH. He's got huge net worth invested in his bow. Difference between tanks and mages is this: He can invest offensively AND defensively, whereas you may only choose one.

He's got 180 PTH on his bow. You've got a huge Evasion. To counteract his PTH, you would need DBs of equal size:

Evasion Mukluks [0] (+180) worth $66,398,911 owned by Twisted Fate (Tybleo)

for example. Your Evasion already provides the defensive DX needed.

You'll simply have to spend half on your DBs of what he spent on his bow.

tsk, tsk, tsk. Even with a mage team, you're caught up in the USD game up top. That's what this amounts to. Not seekers.

QBsutekh137 November 14 2006 1:03 PM EST

Novice, I spent money on a minion for far more than the experience he gave. I simply HAD to have an extra slot to take damage and to wear my tattoo.

Yes, I probably need some DBs. It will take me months and months to save that kind of cash, of course, since I am now having to buy BA to keep my MPR up (for all the good it does me).

I know I need money and need to spend it on strategic items. However, I am still waiting for someone to tell me what I should be investing my experience in. It's not exactly a warm fuzzy feeling to see MPR be so worthless, and worse, not have anywhere else to go with it.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] November 14 2006 1:14 PM EST

you want to complain ranger? how about you reducing my damage by 97%, less fair then seekers imo.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 14 2006 1:24 PM EST

"So, my evasion is just big enough to make him start missing once in a while when multiplied by 3. The large evasion plus defensive dex make him unable to land a double hit, and even miss entirely once in a while. In round two, with the lower evasion multiplier, he always gets a hit, but doesn't have enough dexterity left over to get a double (I was somewhat surprised by that, maybe he would if I tested more, I'm tired of losing. *smile*)

So, basically Evasion is a "get it big and that's it". It would be absolutely stupid of me to train it any higher, at least in regards to it meaning more in ranged."

I see it more as, "Get it big, and keep going until no one can hit you!" It's not the effect, the pth reduction you'll see the expenditures worth on, that will stargt to stagnate.

It's the defensive dex. Defense that can't be lowered in any way, and can cause tanks to deal you no damage at all!

Granted you've got to be able to spend as much on Eva as the tank is on Dex, and preferbly more, but there's always an AoF. ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 14 2006 1:33 PM EST

Paying 16 points for a single level in DD is way ugly. In fact I don't think you should have to train it at all, I think you should be putting xp into a skill that lowers your opponents AMF affect, I'm the first person to beg for a mage specific skill (spell focus STAT!). The trouble is that when we had free retraining, Archery was busted...so evasion looked like christmas, your birthday , and disney land all rolled into one, It was silly not to train it. Now I wonder if you'd have done the same thing, or used that XP to bring your DD closer to 5 mil effect...

AdminNightStrike November 14 2006 1:50 PM EST

"EO: Yep, I am investing in that -- DM. It's the only thing left to invest in, and I'm doing so with both minions right now. Hopefully they can get big enough for me to add a few more targets in 3-6 months."

You need to train Ethereal Chains. That's the anti-tank spell that you're looking for.

QBRanger November 14 2006 1:58 PM EST

PIt,

Anyone can build a wall, mages cannot use seekers.

And have you come across walls with MgS and TSA's on? And backed my a TOE? My damage is reduced over 75%. So yes, it is not as much as you state (97%) but it still is a large amount to be reduced.

AdminNightStrike November 14 2006 2:03 PM EST

"The trouble is that when we had free retraining, Archery was busted...so evasion looked like christmas"

...And it was similarly nerfed to account for the way archery half-worked. If Archery is back to normal, so should be Evasion (ie, 4x round 1)

QBsutekh137 November 14 2006 2:14 PM EST

NS, sure, great idea. Sadly, I need the DM more than EC, and as I am sure you are well aware, of, those two don't play nice. *smile*

Let me make clear I am NOT being anti-tank here. I am being pro-mage. There is a vast difference. I simply want more viable choices for mages.

Novice, I still like my Evasion, it still helps a lot. I nuked my 4 million FB for it, and it was well spent -- I have to spend exp on _something_, and at least the skill means more now than it did before-before. I might even train it more once I get my DM to a place where I can grab a few more targets. NS, that's my point with DM: I don't think I can train enough EC to stop the USD tanks (that's what's up here). I can, however, grow DM big enough to perhaps eventually add NWO, Tezmac, and Dixie Cousins to my list, at least that is a hope of mine.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] November 14 2006 2:16 PM EST

yes, but mages also cannot miss ranger, where tanks can, and many do

QBRanger November 14 2006 2:20 PM EST

Pit,

Something I am unsure of, how many tanks miss my 15 dex wall?
The evasion it has is only 40 effective designed to lower the number of hits it receives.

Also, while you say mages never miss, I will counter with Tanks can and often hit 3 or more times.

QBPit Spawn [Abyssal Specters] November 14 2006 2:28 PM EST

and what do mages need to use seekers for when they can hit every minion in the same round

QBsutekh137 November 14 2006 2:50 PM EST

Pit, hitting every minion comes at a HUGE cost. Either:

Fireball: ALL fellow minions will likely get nuked in round four and five. You know who usually kills my familiar and second minion? I do. Splash damage is FIFTY PERCENT of what a full power hit would be. Ouch.
CoC: No ranged offense whatsoever.

Those are the offsets to spreadfire. To compare to tanks, think MM. Fires in all rounds, is a single attack, and has no splash damage.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 14 2006 3:01 PM EST

Persoanly, the problem is the fixed effect. It's always been a problem in this game. As everything is weighed versus something else.

That's why Weapon VA is too powerful. And Seekers. And AoI.

Do we really want to go back to having a four minion team, with one damage dealer hidden by an AoI, safe in the knoweldge you cannot touuch the damage deal until the rest of the team is dead?

But on the other hand, do we want Seekers, or A/EXbows making AoI's worthless?

I still think the best senario is to have them work off of each other.

AoI + compared to Ammo +. If Ammo + isn't greater than (or greater than or equal to) the size of your AoI, it doesn't target that minion.

This owuld of course only apply to ammo/weapon attacks that seek.

Normal attacks are out of luck.

Maybe we could have a melee weapon that has see invisible properties. :)

But it then boils down to who's got the biggest toy, which is what CB is all about. ;)

AdminNightStrike November 14 2006 8:13 PM EST

"When will mages finally catch a break?"

Ranger, with all due respect, I'd just like to point out that you were the one that was the prime driver in making Axbows work again with respect to the AoI. Your justification was that a tiny item like the AoI shouldn't be able to make a 60m rare item worthless. You were right.

Aren't we talking about the same thing? You seem to think it'd be ok if an AoI fooled seekers, which are another rare item that people like freed dumped a lot of money into.

It seems like you just get angry when something messes up your own strategy. I say this only because of your silence during novice's plight against the broken Archery. It was just as unfair that a +102 ELB was as or less effective than a +10 SOD.

noneedforthese November 14 2006 9:47 PM EST

I agree with NS that allowing a single mage to remain unscathed save for AMF/GA is too powerful.
But I also agree with Sutekh that mages simply don't have enough options... More items/skills available would be fantastic.
Not saying we should have as many options as tanks (again, we're the budget option so we shouldn't have as many advantages) but seriously, I can spend 27 million on my alatars to make it give me a measly 5% increase in damage, or a tank could spend it on his MH to increase it by around 3500x (I don't even know how much damage that is).
But I'm still a sucka 4 magic :D

QBRanger November 14 2006 11:31 PM EST

NS,
I had nothing to do with axbows and AOI.

To refresh your memory it was axbows and PL, not an AOI. PL is a skil that with little xp can make axbows useless. Remember that axbows are used not for damage but for the drain And with PL nerfing the drain, my 60M NW axbow was worthless, as were others. Jon changed it to stop the PL of stats when the minions stat went below 0.

Seekers are different in that they are disposable items, very cheap to get and relatively cheap to upgrade.

You mistake my silence during novices plea for apathy. I did not use an elb at the time and could not comment adequately on it. Yes, I saw the data and enough was done about it from those in the know.

If you look at my old posts, I have always been an advocate for archery. I still even think that VA should work with archery.

I am against seekers. You seem to think I am against ELB's. I am not against nerfing these items. Certainly not. I built a wall for defense against them. Let them fire away. But something disposable that nerfs all my NW into my wall and makese all my 2M MPR useless is counter to a fair thing.

To have an AOI fool seekers or have a chance is nothing like the axbow situation. I am not typing about having the AOI stop the elb from working as it was designed (that is do damage) but stop seekers, the disposable item. The axbow and exbow are inate to their function. It was nerfed with PL. The elb does not have inate seeking Disposable items give it that ability. Cheap items that are cheap to upgrade and can be used for defense.

NS;
Please compare the same things. All due respect.

AdminNightStrike November 14 2006 11:50 PM EST

"I agree with NS that allowing a single mage to remain unscathed save for AMF/GA is too powerful."

I don't think I said that... but whatever

AdminNightStrike November 15 2006 12:02 AM EST

Ranger,

Ok, it seems my memory is faulty. With so many posts supporting things, and those things changing so often, it can get confusing. You supported seekers, but that was back when an AoI could fool them. I got that reversed:

http://www.carnageblender.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001tRa


And yes, you're right regarding PL. I confused PL and the AoI.


That said, I still think your argument that seekers shouldn't be a hole in your strat because you have a lot of NW and MPR built up is as faulty as my memory was earlier. I can't very well pour $200m into a DCM on a single CoC mage team and complain because people with 100k MPR can beat me when I'm at 2m MPR. Freed countered your giant NW into AC with giant NW into ranged combat, and a strat to work around your wall. You now have another hole to plug.

I do recall (and correctly this time) that someone else countered one of your Wall strats with a powerful VB. He put lots of NW into a low damage weapon that could nullify a lot of your AC. You disliked that, as well. So tell me this:

How is someone allowed to beat you so that you don't get angry?

QBRanger November 15 2006 12:27 AM EST

NS,

There are plenty "honest" ways to beat me. Just a few characters can do it. Do not forget I have the highest MPR character with a decent strategy and some NW behind it.

The VB was/is still overpowered for what it does. It has so many benefits with little negatives. I think almost everyone who knows the game thinks it is the best melee weapon out there. Especially with PL nerfing the VA abilities of the MH and Bth. If the VB had some negatives to counter its benefits, it would be a fine and balanced weapon. That is what we were asking, balance the darn thing.

Or do you think that anyone should be able to use a cheap item on a nice NW weapon and just beat the top MPR character?

It is not like I have not fought more battles between TAB and Koy than anyone except perhaps Krang. Should that not account for anything?

We have the NUB to let new players beat older ones. Now we have seekers letting low MPR characters beat the top players. You seem to believe it is right to let someone rent a high elb, equip an item that costs about 10cb2 per shot, and beat up on or stalemate the top mages in the game. Sounds fair and balanced to me.

I guess being at/near the top means nothing to you. It is just fine that someone less than 1/2 the top MPR can stalemate one of the top characters. Blighted thinking according to me.

Relic November 15 2006 12:32 AM EST

Is is not within Ranger's rights as a community member and longtime player to want a reasonable look at seeker arrows and a suggestion of a disposable item for mages that could counter their only damage dealing minion from being pummeled with no defense against it?

Ranger and others (myself included) love the strategy of this game. If you decide to be a mage (regardless of DD spell), and your strategy is nullified with a disposable item, that is disheartening at the very least and needs discussion and possible tweaking imo.

Evasion may need some buffing now that Archery has been fixed, but I think it quite reasonable that mages get a disposable item to counter another disposable item. Flash powder, magic dust, whatever you want to call it, it would also have a + on it that could be upgraded and help to counter the massive + of seekers and + on bows. So Evasion and flash powder could be used together to help create a viable defense for mage teams against seekers.

My 2 cents.

AdminNightStrike November 15 2006 12:55 AM EST

There is a defense: Evasion + EC.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 15 2006 12:58 AM EST

5092 Bindles of Glamering Dust +20

chuck1234 November 15 2006 8:21 AM EST

As regards the Mage vs Tank controversy, I'll provide a tiny insight from my small NCB char Innocence, 30k mpr, 40k pr, 73k score. I use a CoC mage with AoI up front, and an Eva enchanter leads in the second position. Even at this small mpr, I have Evasn 16, enough to nerf most tanks at times even into melee.
There's no way I can fight other mages, because given an equivalent mpr, two mages are bound to have much the same destructivity, so why bother about training AMF; and with my score shooting up thanks to higher score tanks falling like nine-pins, it makes sense to restrict my attention entirely to tanks.
Hence, I target DM tanks, some of them even 80-100k mpr, and get the better of them. So, with Evasion having provides so much love for Mages from CB2, perhaps seekers are the levelling factor to keep tanks in the hunt.

Wasp [Demon Forging] November 15 2006 9:47 AM EST

Theres not actually much going for mages is there!? AMF, stops their DD a bit. Seekers, to hit the mage first. Lack of strong armour. Lack of a decent helm to wear.. Most things in this game are balanced, but I believe it's far from that. A mage has no counter to AMF (Some say get a ToE.. But to me, it's not really a counter) A mage really has no way of counter-acting a seeker arrow/bolt, even if he trains evasion... The amount of evasion needed to stop a high end bow with high PTH, would be silly, to then have a high evasion to counter act the tanks dex in order to not get hit... is, well, silly. Mages need most of their exp into their main attack, the DD spell, then they need HP in order to live. Tanks get a lot of gear that boosts many of their attributes, whereas mages only get CoI and AG, which get pretty pricey to upgrade. I would personally change my mage into a tank but I lack the funds. Mages don't even have a proper helm. Work needs to be done.

QBRanger November 15 2006 10:01 AM EST

Wasp,

Do not forget that a TOA tank really does not need a massive PTH on his elb in order to hit a mage with high evasion. And the Str of that tank will be likely enough to finish off most mages in 1-2 rounds using seekers, since as you pointed out, mages have low AC. Slap on a ToA, equip seekers for defense and your basically immune to getting hit from most mages up to about 2x your MPR.

The TOE is nice, however, with the 20% boost archery obtained in the latest of many tank boosts, its cap is less and less compared to the damage tanks now do.

Wasp [Demon Forging] November 15 2006 10:12 AM EST

And that, yes.

We are soon approaching another change month. Like last change month, and the one before that, I will be once again be waiting for a new piece of mage armour that goes on the head. Will this be the lucky month?? Perhaps this helm can grant a small bonus to DD and a percentage protection from amf..? Say each + gives a certain amount of protection from amf and a certain amount of bonus to a mage's DD spell. Anything thrown in a mages direction would be welcome... as long as it isn't an un-escapable seeker arrow.

Wasp [Demon Forging] November 15 2006 10:40 AM EST

Sorry for the double post, I also forgot to mention the TSA and the MgS. Do mages need any more done against them??!

QBJohnnywas November 15 2006 10:45 AM EST

Mage teams are on the rise again though, after a summer of tankdom....

Wonder why? Oh yeah, they cost a fortune to run properly.

Swings and roundabouts......

AdminNightStrike November 15 2006 2:20 PM EST

AMF has the same counter that every EO has -- a stronger offense. If you allow a counter for AMF, then you need one for EC and DM (something outside just making the affect stat higher).

I would say that the intent is that mages are incapable of being primary damage dealers, but are instead meant to augment a tank. I would also agree that there is very little available to buff a mage (and anything that is there doesn't add AC, which is just plain weird.)

Wasp [Demon Forging] November 15 2006 5:32 PM EST

The thing is, if you make the spell higher, say the mm instead of hitting for 500k and taking 50k backlash, you hit for 600k and then take 59k backlash... Which is actually, well, more?

AdminNightStrike November 15 2006 9:28 PM EST

Shade tried to make the same argument. Put real numbers behind that math and see what it actually looks like.

AdminNightStrike November 24 2006 5:05 AM EST

This is round one of ranged against a familiar with a protection of 27.... That's a lot of damage.


Malevolent Shade shot Imia's familiar with Malevolent Bow of Malice [548132]
Imia absorbs damage [210985]
Malevolent Shade skewered Imia's familiar with Malevolent Bow of Malice [627404]
Malevolent Shade struck deep into Imia's familiar with Malevolent Bow of Malice [562957]

This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001wyU">Got to love those seekers.</a>