Hindsight is a wonderful thing... (in General)


AdminG Beee December 23 2006 12:31 PM EST

...but maybe we should have discussed and lobbied Jon to move the Sunday no clan points to Monday (Christmas day) this year.
Would have been nice to leave the PC off for a full 24 hrs and not feel bad about it. Then again, I'd prolly have not been able to anyway so it most likely wouldn't have made a difference for me.

Maybe next year...

AdminShade December 23 2006 1:03 PM EST

I think it should be extended this year, Sunday AND monday ;)

Relic December 23 2006 1:04 PM EST

I agree with Shade. Then we can actually take a breather. :)

QBRanger December 23 2006 1:09 PM EST

I think things should stay the same. When Yom Kipper fell on a weekday, no one of the Jewish faith said anything.

The game plays as it does.

Godpanda December 23 2006 1:21 PM EST

To be a jerk, or not to be... THAT is the question.

See, I got my name dramallama from making a big fuss about Atheist Knight (religion). So I figure, do this, and everyone had to be called Drama llama1, drama llama2, drama llama3, etc. etc.

Lol, couldn't resist.

I don't care either way lol.

Gandalf December 23 2006 1:58 PM EST

I agree with Shade as i wont be allowed to go on PC on christmas day well don't think my mum and dad will let me. ='(

QBOddBird December 23 2006 4:44 PM EST

So did you decide to go with 'to be a jerk', seeing as how you brought it up? =D

And I agree, we probably should've ask about that. It'd be nice for those of you who are clanfighting and trying to get all your BA to get Christmas off...as for me, I just won't be getting on

Godpanda December 23 2006 4:55 PM EST

Jerk, jerk, jerk!

Hehe.

Flamey December 23 2006 5:19 PM EST

I think things will be okay, the majority of us won't be on? so farming wont be as high?

Silatt December 23 2006 5:28 PM EST

I will be in ur bases, stealing your clan points.

Underage Drinking [Battle Royale] December 23 2006 5:34 PM EST

omg im going to own all of you for xmas, i think you can sacrifice one day for your families

Flamey December 23 2006 5:36 PM EST

my Christmas is in 24 hours, so it'll be Christmas eve for you guys.


I guess I'll be farming you on Boxing day which equals your Christmas :P

Daz December 23 2006 10:41 PM EST

Flamey: I was just going to say that :)

horseguy001 December 23 2006 10:55 PM EST

Well I work this Christmas and will have access to a computer for a big chunk of the day...mad clan points for me :D

Hyrule Castle December 23 2006 11:02 PM EST

suck it up, or get your priorities in line.

what comes first?

Games, or Family?

Hyrule Castle December 23 2006 11:05 PM EST

if we are going to have x-mas off, what about people of the jewish faith, do we get the 7 days to light the candle off too, all the other religions major events, and all holidays...

If you take all of them into account, where do we draw the line as to what is fair?

I say leave the game it is... or take clans out for all religious holidays!

QBOddBird December 23 2006 11:12 PM EST

hahaha...

you guys with your 'equality' crap make me laugh

AdminJonathan December 23 2006 11:51 PM EST

I've added Dec 25 and Jan 1 as "clan holidays." So this weekend and next, you get two days off.

TheHatchetman December 24 2006 12:08 AM EST

Yay! thank you very much Jon! :-D

Christmas won't matter, but I wasn't planning on being level-headed enough for CB on the first... Hangover Central...

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] December 24 2006 12:26 AM EST

I'd call you a wuss but I think that would be unfair seeing as I've never experienced a hangover :P

Gandalf December 24 2006 8:05 AM EST

yeah thank you Jon i appreciate it very much.

Slashundhack [We Forge Our Own Stuff] December 24 2006 12:19 PM EST

Some one must of been watching your hindsight G Beee because you got what you wanted .

AdminNightStrike December 26 2006 4:09 AM EST

You know, this actually helps to solidify sutekh's point that the game is too clan-focused.

QBsutekh137 December 26 2006 11:36 AM EST

Perhaps, NS, but Jonathan sees that focus as a _good_ thing, no matter how much folks are wearied by clans and their downsides. Overall, I think folks (including Jonathan) still think clans are fun. I sure don't, but that's just one Osiran's opinion.

Have we had a clan poll in a while? Just a flat-out, "Do you think clans are fun?" type of question? Not sure what the options should be other than Yes/No/Maybe, so it probably wouldn't even be a very useful poll...

Relic December 26 2006 11:46 AM EST

I think of clans as more a motivator rather than a "fun factor".

QBsutekh137 December 26 2006 12:08 PM EST

Shouldn't the game's inherent "fun factor" be motivation enough?

If the game were enhanced, say, to require you to do 50 push-ups a day just to be allowed to play, would that be something you would want to be part of the game? It might motivate you to do push-ups, and that might even be a good thing, but it has nothing to do with enhancing the game experience.

Do clans enhance the CB gaming experience?

AdminNightStrike December 26 2006 1:39 PM EST

"Do clans enhance the CB gaming experience?"

To some. They encourage teams, as Ranger has mentioned. His clan helps members out.

They discourage community, however. With barely over 400 active players a week, we should be focusing on One Team, One Goal.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 26 2006 1:42 PM EST

how exactly does a little friendly competition discourage community?

QBsutekh137 December 26 2006 1:59 PM EST

For one thing, it makes a bunch of folks in the top ten immune from each other. I find that positively disgusting. You can't have competition when you aren't fighting those who provide a challenge to you.

QBsutekh137 December 26 2006 2:15 PM EST

To clarify my point, just look at Battle Royale. They don't fight each other, and are all in the Top Ten. That causes stagnation of score, of clans, and makes the Top Ten exemption be locked down even tighter than it already is.

In other parts of the score spectrum, we regularly have threads about there not being any suitable clan targets at various ranges (no suitable targets at all, I guess). That makes it hard for people to (morale-wise) slog through certain portions of the ladder, especially when they see all the clan bonuses above and below them.

I see your point novice, but you didn't answer my question. Do clans add to the game experience for you, or are they merely a chore? (or something else entirely?) I honestly would love to hear people's viewpoints...

AdminG Beee December 26 2006 2:21 PM EST

Some folks just don't do "team" ;)

Are you proposing an alternative to clans, or just to do away with them altogether?
Personally I like them and enjoy the banter back and forward with my clanmates. I'd enjoy the clans even more if we could foster a competitiveness with others. Farming other clan members close to you, sniping their auctions, good hearted baiting about their "sucky" strats. All the good playground stuff. We're far too nice and wishy washy to everyone here. I'm not suggesting we do nasty, definitely not, but good clean competition never hurt anyone.

Of course there will always be one or two clans that dominate - there always is in any game I've played before.

I like the clan aspect of the game and would hate to see it go away.

PS. I'd need a while to work on the 50 push ups a day routine. Imagine the effort for whacky time...

AdminNightStrike December 26 2006 2:31 PM EST

"how exactly does a little friendly competition discourage community?"

That question is somewhat invalid. Clans remove friendly competition, not add it, and for the exact reason that Sutekh provided. There aren't enough people actively playing this game, and so there is stagnation. Battle Royale has 3 of the top 5 slots, and all 5 members are in the Top 9.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 26 2006 2:36 PM EST

I would like see more done with clans, scrims the resemble the clickfests of old would be something I've beeen wishing for since the bygone days.

I enjoy the measure of my strat against the hoarde, it makes for possibly daily chaos in my fightlist, and pushes me to constantly think about how I'm going to keep people and gain more, while still planning long term.

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] December 26 2006 2:38 PM EST

Well, you wanted an opinion, I'll give you mine :) Please imagine an enormous ''IMO'' sign up here...

Clans are the reason I played CB for as long as I did. Because of their competitive factor. Being in the top ten 3 minions teams for power in Rivendell does not appeal to me in anyway, though having my clan in the top for monthly scores does, because it seems like a much more day-to-day attainable goal. (only a couple days work is required to be in the top 5 clans)

Now, clans have lost some of their fun factor for me. Why? Because, and please don't interpret this as whining, it seems as of late, my char has gotten an insane amount of farming attention. I can do with this, clanfighting was made with competition in mind, and I am completely okay with that. But, to me, who does not buy ANY BA (ncb), it is imposssible to be competiitive, even when disposing of the totality of my normally accrued BA EVERY DAY.
(please note I have been doing that for a couple months now, and I almost never skip any, exept at night)

So, even when using my 600-800 normal BA a day, I find myself at -400ish because I am farmed for something like 2100 cps daiily. (my fighlist is often all clan too, so it's not the reason I am having trouble). I feel i am not rewarded for my dedication , you know? Competition means the ones who do the most effort wins, no? I do not think it is the case right now. (being clan farmed by higher chars who I can do nothing against because they have none else to farm is aggravating too.)

I know for a fact I am not the only one in this position, and it pretty much kills clanfighting for me...

That is my opinion on clanfighting, from my actual position in the great scheme of things.

Relic December 26 2006 2:39 PM EST

Do you want some cheese with that whine? A lot of folks think that dominating players should be brought down "like the rest of us" for the "sake of the community". Bah, survival of the fittest in my book.

If you don't like that they dominate, do something about it. They can be beat, it will take you a lot of time and effort and yes, USD to beat them, but how do you think they got up there in the first place?

Go cry over your spoiled milk, you will get no sympathy from me.

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] December 26 2006 2:44 PM EST

I see absolutely no whining in this here thread, only facts...

Relic December 26 2006 2:52 PM EST

"how exactly does a little friendly competition discourage community?"

That question is somewhat invalid. Clans remove friendly competition, not add it, and for the exact reason that Sutekh provided. There aren't enough people actively playing this game, and so there is stagnation. Battle Royale has 3 of the top 5 slots, and all 5 members are in the Top 9."

That sounded very whine-like to me. Any online game has its best players (dedicated, good strategies, well funded). These remarks about how clans divide the community are bunk imo, if clans were not well liked, nobody would play in them, period.

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] December 26 2006 4:02 PM EST

Just want to make a little correction to your post, Glory, in all due respect...

Even if clans were not well-liked, people would still fight in them. Because of the very easy-to-get bonus they provide, given very minimal fighting on the part of it's members.

IMO, clans are a given. Not being in one has absolutely no advantage.

Miandrital December 26 2006 4:08 PM EST

"IMO, clans are a given. Not being in one has absolutely no advantage."

Unless you value you win percentage ;)

QBsutekh137 December 26 2006 4:34 PM EST

The fact that not being in one has no advantage is what makes clans stupid, in my opinion. If everyone has to be in a clan, then where's the choice?

Glory, you admit that USD would be required to even remotely budge the top teams, and then say you need to be dedicated, etc. I don't follow. Which is it? USD? Dedication? Both? In case you didn't know, a lot of folks in CB-land (dedicated folks) don't have any excess USD to swish around. You are basically actively advocating that those folks should never, ever, stand a chance. Additionally, such folks get screwed over by things like the Top Ten exemption. I find that appalling.

No one is asking for your sympathy. Certainly not me. I was asking for viewpoints on clans. No more no less.

Question: If I showed EXTREME dedication, never missing any BA, every hour, every day (even at night), and bought all of my BA every day, would that count for _anything_ in your opinion? And if so, you do realize that doing that would gain me a big fat nada against the teams above me that put even tiny amounts of USD into the game. Months and months of 24x7 BA usage and purchasing can be trumped by just a few hundred dollars. So don't even try to use the word "dedication" in a post if you are also going to be apathetic to the use of USD.

NOTE: I am not saying the USD folks aren't dedicated. Not at all. But I AM saying there are non-USD folks who are more "dedicated" than some USD spenders, and those folks get nothing but demoralization in return.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 26 2006 4:50 PM EST

There are two things to do with charcaters in CB.

Fight or Forge.

Now, clans give bonuses (with no malus) to both those activities. If you're fighting, and not in a clan you're missing out. If you're forging, and not in an Econ clan, you're missing out.

Why would anyone want to not be in a clan?

Relic December 26 2006 5:05 PM EST

Sut, what part of "dedicated, good strategies, well funded" was unclear? I did not single out dedication as being the only factor in being a top contender. But, while we are belaboring the point, dedication does play a tremendous and yes, ultimately vital role.

You cannot simply BUY MPR (except for purchasing a minion but that is negligible), you can buy BA, but you have to be online clicking and fighting constantly to be a top contender, add to that a bunch large NW items, and a good strategy and you have a top contender.

Also, if you only buy your daily BA, you will quickly fall behind in the ranks. If you are even attempting to say that those in the top 10 spots would not (or should not) be there were it not for USD, I would say that it has been a factor certainly, but they would still dominate even without it. Why? Dedication, simply put, they have fought more battles than any other players.

How do clans come into this mix? Birds of a feather my friend, dedicated players flock together, they share and loan items, they help each other with strats, loans and other various things. There is also the clan bonus which gives advantage to, dare I say it, more dedicated players. Those who fight the most and smartest.

I guess I am just tired of everyone thinking everything is broken and needs fixing in regards to fairness, clans, dominating players, blah, blah, blah.

QBsutekh137 December 26 2006 7:57 PM EST

"if you only buy your daily BA"... Um, what? What else could I possibly buy, dude? Are you suggesting I somehow conjure up more BA from the spot that monkeys fly out of? You are making NightStrike's multiply-posted point very, abundantly clear, Glory.

You are basically saying "be a tank". Because I can't possibly buy more BA than is available. AND, I have _nothing_ else to invest in as a 2-minion mage team. If you respond with: "Then don't be a two-minion mage team...", then you have helped me also make my point. You are limiting choice.

I want all types, all minion numbers, clan and non-clan to have a chance. I would even like USD to be written out, but, in my estimation, that would require eliminating all transfers. I think that would kill CB, and no one wants that.

Your conclusion is a nice, albeit basic, strawman. I don't think "everything is broken". I never said that (nor did anyone else). I think clans are stupid, would like the Top Ten exemption to disappear, think the weapon allowance doesn't need to exist any more, would like experience-per-level cost of stats to be capped at 15, and would like weapon upgrades to at least be non-linear enough to match the accelerating scale of MPR cost. To name a few.

Those are all very specific ideas to tweak a game that I love and hold dear, and have done for more than three and a half years.

On the flip side, your posts appears to be a mix of resignation and "stop whining". Thanks for your contribution. *smile*

Relic December 26 2006 8:40 PM EST

After re-reading my post I was unclear in saying "If you only buy your daily BA", what I meant was, if you only buy your daily BA and not burn the rest of your daily BA by playing as a dedicated player, you will fall behind in the ranks.

When did I ever say be a tank? You can be a mage-centric team and still outfit your supporting minions with loads of high NW items. You can add a TON of mpr-type boosts to supporting minions just as you can to tanks and there weapons. You chose to be a 2-minion mage team, if you have less upgrade possibilities than other strategies then so what? That is what makes the game interesting and fun, all the different team setups and scenarios.

If I ran a single UC tank, or a single FB mage, or other various team setups that do not lend themselves to upgrade possibilities other than longevity and MPR growth, that is entirely my decision. If you as a seasoned, self-proclaimed, long-term, dedicated player make a decision to play a non-upgradeable strat, should Jon have to bend to your whim each time you do so, and re-work the game so that you can upgrade your strat?

Your above comment:
"I think clans are stupid, would like the Top Ten exemption to disappear, think the weapon allowance doesn't need to exist any more, would like experience-per-level cost of stats to be capped at 15, and would like weapon upgrades to at least be non-linear enough to match the accelerating scale of MPR cost. To name a few."

Clans have been and are imo a vital and integral part of the game, the top ten exemption gives people a reason to kick butt and continue kicking butt, the weapon allowance is a great thing to limit a newb from equipping a HUGE morg or bow and not having to pay for it from a rewards standpoint.

As far as weapon upgrades, I am still on the fence on this one, I am too newly back to say whether I like the change or not from a damage model perspective, I do however like the changes from the Blacksmith side of things.

Since you have been around, you know that there have been quite a few newbs challenge the top spot as single minion mages, burning crazy BA daily and fighting a ton during their NUB. You can absolutely compete without having the USD/CB2 upgrade benefits of "SOME" of the strategies on here.

QBsutekh137 December 26 2006 11:31 PM EST

No one has challenged the top spot as a single mage since I tried it. Check the character creation date on Hubbell to see when that was. It was a while ago. When my NCB ran out was also when the whining sort of started. Funny how that works. *smile* My NCB (and subsequent minion purchase) "didn't work", and I started wondering why MPR was so worthless. Please don't talk as if NCB/NUB runs at the Top Ten are commonplace now, at least not without large injections of USD. I spent no USD on mine.

You state: "the weapon allowance is a great thing to limit a newb from equipping a HUGE morg or bow and not having to pay for it from a rewards standpoint. " I think you need to read up on what the weapon allowance is. The weapon allowance is actually a LOOPHOLE in the NW/PR relation, allowing a player to equip a weapon of some stature and AVOID being dinged for it. Not really sure what your point was there.

Your BA comment makes total sense. Sorry I ranted on about it so much, I totally agree with you -- one purchase of BA a day is not dedication, and it won't get you very far. However, you can always purchase an existing character. *smile*

As far as a mage being able to invest in something...well, what? The only thing I am missing are DBs. There is not anything else to invest in as far as I know, and my EBs already boost my Evasion a lot. If, by your comment, you mean "get a wall", well, yeah, sure. I could get a wall. But I don't want a wall. I want to be competitive without a wall. Sue me. Re-read my previous post on the level of balance I would like to see in the game. Sheep lying with wolves, and whatnot.

Sir Woot December 27 2006 12:02 AM EST

My choices as I see them laid out here are:
A: Join a clan and burn all possible BA everyday in the hopes of keeping positive clan points.
B: Play when and as often as I can and just muddle along without and hope/chance of being competitive.

I have a job and family so it's easy to figure out which option I chose. The family part pretty much precludes the spending of USD.

Unless Jon comes up with a new way of allocating daily BA I will never be competitive. I will continue to play until I get bored and then sell everything. That's my two cents and yes I'd like a nice Brie with this whine.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 27 2006 12:25 AM EST

Cave in Sute! Get a Wall, a MgS and a RoS. Oh, you'll need a fourth minion as well. ;)

At least with some sort of Tank, you can make use of your Weapon Allowance, 'power' you have otherwise lost.

QBsutekh137 December 27 2006 8:08 AM EST

If by "cave in" you mean "start spending USD", I suppose that would work. There is no way I am getting to four minions without USD, minion cost alone is 60 million. That would take how many years to accrue via conventional means? *smile*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 27 2006 11:46 AM EST

Start a new four minion NCB. ;)

QBsutekh137 December 27 2006 1:25 PM EST

And end far below my current MPR? How would that help? *confused*

Without buying BA, I would be lucky to end up around 1.3 or 1.4 million MPR (rough guess). Such a team would not be more "powerful" than Hubbell. Starting an NCB is out of the question.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 27 2006 1:36 PM EST

wait for the free retrain (PLEASE Jon PLEASE?) and train FB into EC and all that DM into Decay and just go tank hunting

QBsutekh137 December 27 2006 1:42 PM EST

Heh, nice! If I get free retrain I would try MM instead of FB first... Beyond that, I would have to really turn my team upside down to try a new angle...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 27 2006 1:46 PM EST

Dual MM seems to be really nice these days...
poor FB just can't compete...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 27 2006 3:05 PM EST

"And end far below my current MPR? How would that help? *confused*"

Future proofing Sute! ;) No need to worry aobut needing 60 mill to finally get yourself the four minion team required.

Start with four, and fight up again. ;) This time, go tank and sink cash into your wepaons 'X'. Anything else is really a waste.
Unless you're trying to get a MgS to +50... :P

horseguy001 December 27 2006 3:53 PM EST

hey sute, we get free retraining in the New Year, so now you can try some different spells...maybe a dual MM won't be all that bad :D

QBsutekh137 December 27 2006 4:08 PM EST

Excellent! Fun times to come!
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