Free retraining (in Changelog)

AdminJonathan December 27 2006 2:43 PM EST

After changemonth (Jan 1, or when I'm done :) we'll have 5 days of free retraining.

Relic December 27 2006 2:44 PM EST


AdminShade December 27 2006 2:46 PM EST

woot, don't know what I'll do with it though :)

Gandalf December 27 2006 2:49 PM EST

same lol.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 27 2006 2:53 PM EST

Jon is the new Godfather of Soul...(tasteless, I know, but MAN can this dude lay it down or what)

Miandrital December 27 2006 2:54 PM EST

Man, what bad timing I have :(

bartjan December 27 2006 2:56 PM EST

This does imply more changes to come? ;)

AdminNightStrike December 27 2006 3:24 PM EST

I may have to do some un-retiring......

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] December 27 2006 3:41 PM EST

This implies a supporter item that will change the game i suppose, lol!

horseguy001 December 27 2006 3:44 PM EST

saweet! Been waiting to get the wrinkles out of this NCB for awhile :D

Thanks Jon :D

QBsutekh137 December 27 2006 4:08 PM EST

God bless you, good sir!

AdminNightStrike December 27 2006 4:12 PM EST

We need to coordinate getting the training values for Evasion and UC down. I did up to 7 already. Protection can wait until the end, since I already got up to 27.

Miandrital December 27 2006 4:18 PM EST

Perhaps I could write a script to train one point at a time and copy the resultant value down.

QBPixel Sage December 27 2006 4:22 PM EST

Fun, can't wait.

bartjan December 27 2006 4:28 PM EST

If you train 1 point at a time, it probably will bog down the server a lot.
With the free untraining, there is no need to do it that way. Just find 2 points in between the level changes. Then try exactly halfway those 2 points. From that, go either up or down, depending on the outcome.

Hyrule Castle December 27 2006 4:32 PM EST

that bartjan, always a thinker :D

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] December 27 2006 6:44 PM EST

OOO, expect a strat advice thread from me in a near future :)

Can't wait to see what's coming!

QBOddBird December 27 2006 6:55 PM EST

Wow, that'll be fantastic! Thanks a ton, Jonathan! =D

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] December 27 2006 7:16 PM EST

How bout free re-inking of tattoos also?

Flamey December 27 2006 7:38 PM EST

Oh, sweet. :)

MissingNo December 27 2006 8:29 PM EST

Does that mean big changes are on the way?

MissingNo December 27 2006 8:30 PM EST

Sorry for the double post, but also, does that mean we get 5 days of free retraining at the end of every change month?

Flamey December 27 2006 9:06 PM EST

its only for this change, it isn't something that's always gonna happen.

MissingNo December 27 2006 9:43 PM EST

I recall there being a free retraining period at the end of last change month.

Miandrital December 27 2006 9:47 PM EST

Jon continues to surprise.

QBsutekh137 December 27 2006 10:06 PM EST

bartjan, that is so...Newtonian! *smile*

TheHatchetman December 27 2006 10:58 PM EST

/me intends to try this "Magical Missile" everyone seems to be raving about :-)

BootyGod December 28 2006 12:11 PM EST

I knew it!!!

I knew you wouldn't let me (and my 4 sucky characters) down!

*builds a memorial to Jon*

Hehehe, time to at least try to make Oduten decent...

TheHatchetman December 28 2006 11:19 PM EST

Sut or Avoid should arrange for the renting of a massive weapon, and retrain all their XP to ST and see how much of a shot they can get off during free unlearning period. :-P Just thought it'd be cool...

QBOddBird December 28 2006 11:23 PM EST

Already done that Hatchetman with the ELBow....check the MPBs

QBsutekh137 December 29 2006 12:01 PM EST

I wonder what the biggest magic blow could be? I could train everything into CoC, find a non-armored, non-ranged-attack single opponent and then send a massive cone of cold at them. I wonder how hard it would hit?

bartjan December 29 2006 12:07 PM EST

You can already calculate that, Sutekh. That's one of the reasons there is no 'magic mpb'.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 29 2006 12:17 PM EST

Would be nice to see posted. ;) I could rustle up a one mpr character for you to blast if you need a target!

Take everything out of hubbel and sink it all into CoC! ;)

QBsutekh137 December 29 2006 12:39 PM EST

How do I calculate it? And even if I calculate it, that doesn't mean it would be the actual blow, just the average blow. CB has wide fluctuations, so a big CoC could be impressive, even more impressive than Decaying a minion with the most hit points!

bartjan December 29 2006 12:51 PM EST

Spell effect * 5.

QBsutekh137 December 29 2006 2:11 PM EST

Not sure where you heard that, bart, but if that is true, I want some more damage please. Analysis follows:

I attacked Fire Dragon, a single target with no AMF, no protection, no endurance, and no magic-reducing armor. All he has is an AC of 7, which I consider negligible.

Most fights ended in one round, and none got to three, so I normalized the damage done in round 1 and round 2 to take into account the 30% and 20% reduction, respectively.

Here is the summary of data:

Number of fireballs: 26
Avg. Damage: 1892751.745
Max Damage: 2497490
Min Damage: 1310340
FB Effect: 543588
Avg/Effect: 3.482

If average damage done is effect times five, my average damage should be 2,717,940. My maximum fireball in 26 tries did not even get close to that. The average was not even effect times 4.

Either the damage is not effect x 5, or I should have some damage output coming my way. *smile*

AdminShade December 29 2006 2:13 PM EST

sut, it is true.

just try to attack an unarmored base minion with any FB or CoC spell. the maximum damage it does is 5 times the spell effect (this is related to the maximum amount of targets it has)

QBsutekh137 December 29 2006 2:17 PM EST

Shade, did you just read my message? My maximum FB in no way got close to 5 times my effect. I had a max fireball against a basically naked target (an AC of 7 is basically nothing).

Or is there a reduction when facing a single minion? For example, if I found a five minion (four plus familiar) team with no magic reduction and no AC, the sum of the hits would average to my effect times 5?

In all of my spreadfire analyses, my Fireball has never hit a single minion for effect x 5.

winner winner December 29 2006 2:20 PM EST

hey wouldn't this be a good strat

4 minions with everthing into fireball

QBsutekh137 December 29 2006 2:29 PM EST

Not really, since the FB would be diluted and susceptible to AMF. Also, each FB would be smaller, making it harder to overwhelm endurance, high AC, and magic-reducing armors.

Even in the glory days of CB1, the effective teams would, at maximum, have two mages out of four minions. At least that is what I recall...

QBOddBird December 29 2006 2:36 PM EST

Also, each FB would be smaller, making it harder to overwhelm endurance, high AC, and magic-reducing armors.

Yes, but wouldn't you get more overall damage for your team, against teams with lesser DD protection, seeing as how it is less EXP per point and therefore an overall greater number of stat ponts invested into FB?

Just playin' Devil's Advocate.

QBsutekh137 December 29 2006 2:39 PM EST

Yes, you are correct about that, OddBird.

QBOddBird December 29 2006 2:48 PM EST

You should (I say should, but it is more of a request) try attacking one of these guys:

a Character belonging to Anant

a Character belonging to 124trav

and posting the battle summaries.

On a side note, I'm glad you said that - me have been arguing over whether or not that effect *5 thing was true, and I've been saying FB gives around ~40% of its level in damage. That coming from my own experience when I had Bluewater and I was comparing MM and FB, of course....but perhaps with better data we could find a more correct damage calculation? Free retraining is coming soon!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 29 2006 2:50 PM EST

In CB1 FB used to gain damage the less amount of targets it attacked. Unlike CoC, which remained constant.

If this has changed in CB2, it's not been part of any changelogs I could find. :/

I've never come across the x5 = max damage before either. :/

QBsutekh137 December 29 2006 2:55 PM EST

I am not going to waste time attacking characters that tiny, where I would only be able to get one FB out each time... I true my figures. FB against a single "soft" target does not give x5 it's effect. That much is empirically true, unless someone can find fault with my methods.

Miandrital December 29 2006 2:55 PM EST

sute, the absolute maximum that your FB will do is effect *5. This is assuming that all the random battle factors work in your favor and you are just plain lucky if that happens.

That is part of the reason why a magic mpb would be cool. (The other reason is that it allows you to see how strong an enemy's magic spells are before you fight them, the same way you can do for tank teams).

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 29 2006 2:57 PM EST

Sute, I've created a new character called 'Avent'. Signle base minion atm. Can add another three to let you test 4 minion teams, and will hunt out a small lesser familiar as well if you want 5. ;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 29 2006 3:06 PM EST

Main makes a very good point. ;)

It's just not the same going into the stats page, trying to work out the bonuses from armour, than figuring out the max effect. ;)

QBsutekh137 December 29 2006 3:27 PM EST

Well, in 26 tries I never even came close to that maximum. I was under the impression that CB uses averages, and adjust rewards up/down from there. I guess maybe all the random factors are based on ceilings and can only go down from there...?

AdminNightStrike December 29 2006 3:32 PM EST

"sute, the absolute maximum that your FB will do is effect *5. This is assuming that all the random battle factors work in your favor and you are just plain lucky if that happens"

You're somewhat correct, but misleadingly so.

I did testing with CoC and MM on a 5 minion team with no defense. In each case, the damages ranged from 50% to 100% of the effect. They easily came to the high 90's and the low 50's.

CoC was easily 50 - 100% of it's effect, and its effect is easily 19% of its level. 19 * 5 happens to be 95. What we should do is test CoC on 1 minion and see where the damages range.

So just to clarify, you're right that damage swings heavily. But it only swings from 50 - 100%, and it hits the extremes within 20 fights.

Lumpy Koala January 2 2007 9:40 PM EST

So... do we have free untraining yet? hehe sorry, I didn't read the entire post

AdminShade January 3 2007 4:22 AM EST

'Or is there a reduction when facing a single minion?'

oh yes there is, or at least there is the first second and third round of ranged which have 30% 20% and 10% penalties ;)

QBsutekh137 January 3 2007 9:54 AM EST

Well, yes, of course I accounted for that reduction in my data points, Shade. *smile*

AdminShade January 3 2007 10:00 AM EST

Ahh, hmmm then I don't know what is causing it... :)

QBOddBird January 3 2007 2:44 PM EST incorrect formula? *grins*

BootyGod January 3 2007 3:34 PM EST

Give me give me give me.

I hate to ask, because this is generous, but would it be possible to throw in a free tattoo artist?

It would allow lowly players like me (poor players lol) to have the same amount of experimentation as those who have the money to experiment. Just a thought.

Thanks in advance for thinking about it :)

Relic January 3 2007 10:18 PM EST

Any word on how soon this will be? I retired my single minion char and don't want to un-retire, and re-retire and have to pay 50k to un-retire again. Thanks.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2007 10:23 PM EST

I assume he's got changes still the works, and the outage implies to me that there is more debugging to be done...just a guess...

Stephen January 4 2007 2:46 AM EST

Nah, the debugging generally starts when the change is released. Or is that user testing?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 4 2007 2:48 AM EST

true, but if he's got something big, the code change might have horked things...

noneedforthese January 4 2007 4:02 AM EST

/me votes for big change

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] January 4 2007 4:32 AM EST

is about time for a new supporter item!

Slashundhack [We Forge Our Own Stuff] January 4 2007 12:27 PM EST

Horked thing?What does that mean,come on spit it out.

Unappreciated Misnomer January 4 2007 12:55 PM EST

the upgrade didnt go as planned

bartjan January 4 2007 1:04 PM EST


AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2007 3:29 PM EST

Could have sworn that was borked. ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 4 2007 4:25 PM EST

it's both!

Slashundhack [We Forge Our Own Stuff] January 4 2007 9:26 PM EST

To me it means ie: he horked up a lung oyster.I thought his finger bobbled when it should of bobbed .

Tenchi Muyo January 4 2007 11:34 PM EST

Just to repeat a previous request:

Please let us have free Tattoo changes when the free retraining occurs. I really have wanted to try some shifts in my strat, but the tattoo limits me from a lot of changes, and spending so much money just to see how it works is a big investment...

QBOddBird January 4 2007 11:50 PM EST

I'm not going to actually request it due to what we are being given already....but I'm hinting strongly that it would be nice.....*hinthinthinthint*

AdminJonathan January 5 2007 12:24 AM EST

Free retraining is still coming.

I have been working 80+ hour weeks for Mozy since the Mossberg review; I just haven't had time to finish the CB changes yet. Things should be settling down this weekend; then I'll be able to wrap up the changes and turn on the free retrain.

GnuUzir January 5 2007 12:28 AM EST


/me gets all tingly...

Tylan January 5 2007 12:50 AM EST

~bows down "thank you"

QBOddBird January 5 2007 12:52 AM EST

80+ hour weeks, ouch - don't blame you for the delay, still can hardly wait! ^_^

Unappreciated Misnomer January 5 2007 1:46 AM EST

take your time jon, im not in any rush, i would rather it done right the first time

QBPixel Sage January 5 2007 2:51 AM EST

I have been working 80+ hour weeks for Mozy since the Mossberg review"

And you're busy banning rule violators =P

QBsutekh137 January 5 2007 10:37 AM EST

Ah, the price of success! Take your time, fair maker, we'll still be here... *smile*

Brakke Bres [Ow man] January 11 2007 7:19 AM EST

as you guys might noticed, free retraining has begun
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