Challenge Bonus and PR (in General)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 3 2007 8:24 PM EST

Is the Challenge Bonus you give linked to your PR? Is it Score versus PR?

Could you, for example, in defense, unequip your big items, to lower your Challenge Bonus, trying to get it into the negative, to try to pursade people to remove you from thier fightlist?

Sort of like the opposite to defensive ammo. ;)

Of course, you'd still have to make sure your team could still defeat opponents lower than themselves, so as not to accrue netagive cash/xp.

But this could be very easy to do with WA and a large weapon...

QBRanger January 3 2007 8:25 PM EST

As I understand,

It is YOUR PR vs THEIR score.

So if you unequip your big items, all you will do is start to lose letting your score drop.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 3 2007 8:27 PM EST

Who cares! My score will come straight back the moment Istart fighting again.
Lowering my score when my BA is refreshing just lowers my opponents rewards.

But that's it PM. I've lowered my PR, which sohuld be far lower than my opponents Score, giving them negative Challenge Bonus, and disuading them from continuing to attack me. ;)

QBRanger January 3 2007 8:29 PM EST

As long as your score drops, their challenge bonus drops.

QBRanger January 3 2007 8:29 PM EST

But as your PR drops---> score drops---> other, lower characters start to attack and beat you.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 3 2007 8:30 PM EST

What's the point of score when you're not fighting? Why not try to lower it?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2007 8:30 PM EST

it's defenders score against attackers PR GL...

So yes, if you were fighting a tank, you could unequip your weapons, lose to a lower score opponent once or twice, and leave everyone with a negative bonus when they fight you...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 3 2007 8:31 PM EST

"But as your PR drops---> score drops---> other, lower characters start to attack and beat you. "

As long as you don't drop so low that you start to earn negative XP and Cash, why worry. ;)

That's where a massive Weapon and the WA come into it.

horseguy001 January 3 2007 8:41 PM EST

Well from my experience with getting my score lowered alot is this:

I start attacking my regulars, then because of my much lower score I lower their score very quickly, causing my fight rewards to stink after only a few fights.

QBPixel Sage January 3 2007 8:53 PM EST

I started a test character a few days ago. Your challenge bonus is your VPR against their score. I noticed this since as I started accumulating untrained exp, the bonuses started going down while I fought more and more. Very soon, the bonus became negative, even though I didn't use any of the untrained experience.

Flamey January 3 2007 8:55 PM EST

that is interesting, pixel. we all thought it was PR vs Score, so its actually VPR, then, and that isn't even hard to test.

how come we didn't know this, before?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 3 2007 9:13 PM EST

Ah, very good point HG. ;)

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] January 3 2007 9:23 PM EST

I always knew it was VPR, what is the point in having that stat unless it is used for something?
I was also sure that it was common knowledge also but most people just simplify it to PR for this situation.

QBPixel Sage January 3 2007 9:23 PM EST

Ah, horseguy is right. I guess it could still be PR versus Score. Who knows?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2007 9:25 PM EST

it's VPR, Mikel and Jon saw to that...

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] January 3 2007 9:48 PM EST

Yes, novice is correct, it was VPR for a long time in CB1 but it wasn't until Mikel horded a huge amount of exp to keep his rewards high that Jon reintroduced it in CB2.

QBRanger January 3 2007 10:07 PM EST

It is not VPR, but PR including the PR items gives you.

When was fighting NWO and Lorenzo I unequipped my DB's which lowered my PR by 100k. My PR at the time was below their score, just barely. I did get a few battles of a small + challenge bonus. When I reequipped the DB's my PR went above their score and no challenge bonus showed up.

Now back to GL's point:

Yes you can lower your PR by a lot, however you will likely get attacked by more people, losing more clan points than if you just kept all your items equipped. However, you may not.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2007 10:09 PM EST

Ranger: VPR is simply PR with untrained XP it's most certainly VPR...

QBRanger January 3 2007 10:14 PM EST

Per the Wiki:

Virtual Power Rating (VPR) is a combination of trained minion Experience as well as untrained.

VPR is only due to xp.

One never sees ones VPR unless you have all your xp trained, then it is equal to MPR.

PR is MPR plus the PR of items.

QBPixel Sage January 3 2007 10:14 PM EST

To further explain Novice's point, unequipping your DB's lowered not only your PR, but also your VPR.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2007 10:15 PM EST

VPR is PR + untrained XP... not MPR + trained XP...

QBPixel Sage January 3 2007 10:16 PM EST

Guess the wiki needs fixing?

QBRanger January 3 2007 10:16 PM EST

Unequipping my displacement boots had absolutely 0 effect on my VPR as VPR is determined SOLELY by your minions xp, both trained and untrained.

QBRanger January 3 2007 10:19 PM EST

This is my understanding of the terms:

MPR-due to trained xp
VPR-due to trained and untrained xp
PR-due to MPR plus NW of items (the PR they give)

One never sees ones VPR unless you have all your xp trained.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2007 10:21 PM EST

PR includes VPR...

QBRanger January 3 2007 10:24 PM EST

But if you unlearn all your xp, your PR will plummet.
So the PR we actually see is "wrong" as it is based on MPR and NW, not VPR and items.

So then the program has a stat we do not see, that is VPR that it uses for calculations of battle rewards. And VPR=PR only if your fully trained in xp?

horseguy001 January 3 2007 10:24 PM EST

Ranger (Popsicle? :D)->

That's because at that time your VPR = PR since you had no untrained exp.

If you hoarded 1 million exp without your DB you would notice that your rewards would be lower then they were without the untrained exp.

Or at least that is my understanding of it.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 3 2007 10:25 PM EST

yes, exactly...

QBRanger January 3 2007 10:28 PM EST

So perhaps we should change the terms.

Divide VPR into 2 terms:

First being VMPR, virtual minion power rating which is learned and unlearned xp.

Second being VPR which is virtual power rating which is all xp, learned and unlearned combined with NW (PR from items)

The reason being that some things, such as forging, clan limits are based on the VMPR.

Rewards, it seems are based on VPR.

The reason I propose 2 terms is that it is confusing using VPR for forging ability and clan limits if you put NW into the equation.

QBRanger January 3 2007 10:31 PM EST

VMPR would also be used for BA regen rate as well as max tattoo level calculations.

Relic January 3 2007 10:41 PM EST

I think you guys are making things too difficult.

MPR is Trained Exp.
VPR is Item PR + MPR + Untrained Exp.
PR is Item PR + MPR.
Score is a Mystical Number that increases are you fight above your VPR and win.

Fight rewards are based on the ratio of _your_ VPR to your _opponents_ Score.

Now, what is so hard about that. :)

Relic January 3 2007 10:44 PM EST

In addition, Forging is related only MPR as far as I understand things. It only takes into account trained exp.

QBPixel Sage January 3 2007 11:02 PM EST

Yup, Glory's got it. Basically, VPR will always be the highest. I think when novice said "PR includes VPR", I think he meant "VPR includes PR".

QBsutekh137 January 3 2007 11:16 PM EST

Here's how I see the terminology, as I find it more intuitive:

MPR = total trained experience
Virtual PR (VPR) = MPR you would gain by training untrained experience (that's why it's "virtual" -- it doesn't exist yet)
NWPR = PR based on NW of items
PR = MPR + VPR + NWPR (I also call this "total PR" just to avoid confusion)

I don't really have a notion of what the "right" terms are, because I don't think there are any "right" terms. I just go with what is intuitive for me to remember. For example, calling "total PR" "virtual PR" makes no sense to me, because parts of total PR are very real PR aspects (MPR and NW) -- nothing virtual about those. The only "virtual" part of PR is untrained experience.

As for what calculations use which PR, I don't really know. But I am pretty sure rewards and BA cost use "total PR", because when one starts a bonus character, one has to train like crazy, every few battles, otherwise rewards go to crap. You need to get that "virtual PR" into your real, "total PR" to win higher up the score ladder.

QBPixel Sage January 3 2007 11:37 PM EST

Sut, if your sayings above are correct, then which of the four are what is displayed on the home page for PR?

VPR doesn't in the slightest way mean that every part of it needs to be virtual. It is virtual because it includes untrained experience as if it were trained, and you can't see it (as you mentioned).

I think Glory has it just right =)

Miandrital January 4 2007 12:32 AM EST

"In addition, Forging is related only MPR as far as I understand things. It only takes into account trained exp."

Are you sure about this? I was quite confident that MPR + untrained exp was what determined forging efficiency. I also believe that MPR + untrained exp is VPR, NW pr is not included in VPR.
PR on the homepage however accounts for everything and MPR on the homepage accounts for only trained exp.

Relic January 4 2007 1:08 AM EST

Maybe Jonathan needs to clarify a few things here.

It isn't logical that untrained exp should count toward Forging proficiency in my mind. It does not benefit you to _not_ train exp when you are forging.

The reason it _is_ logical in regards to fight rewards, ba regeneration rates and clan pr allowances is because you could keep a large amount of untrained exp to inflate your fight rewards, increase your ba regeneration rate, or increase your clan pr allowance.

In essence, Jonathan is a logical guy, I would make the assumption that the above is how things are calculated.

So, when dealing with VPR, if you have no untrained exp, your VPR + your Item PR is equal to your _actual_ PR. If you do have untrained exp, then your VPR is marginally higher than your _actual_ PR by the amount of untrained exp in relation to MPR.

Miandrital January 4 2007 1:49 AM EST

Glory, if VPR determines fight rewards, why shouldn't it determine forge rewards too? Just because you are forging doesn't mean you should need to train all your exp, it is just an additional hassle that I believe jon has removed.

QBPixel Sage January 4 2007 2:13 AM EST

Miandrital, you could morph that argument a bit into "Just because you are <fighting> doesn't mean you should need to train all your exp".

AdminShade January 4 2007 2:44 AM EST

If all experience is trained, then VPR = MPR

PR = VPR + IPR (item generated PR)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] January 4 2007 2:49 AM EST

I could hug you shade

AdminShade January 4 2007 2:54 AM EST

You could, but would you? ;)

Kong Ming January 4 2007 3:33 AM EST

Wow, I almost got very confused by all the above. To my understanding, VPR is untrained experience plus MPR, and PR displayed will be PR due to items plus VPR. Am I right?

Kong Ming January 4 2007 3:37 AM EST

Okay, I did a little training and found that my PR increased when I trained. So untrained experience does not add to PR.

AdminShade January 4 2007 3:47 AM EST

Indeed :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] January 4 2007 7:31 AM EST


So let me get this straight.

MPR = Trained XP
VMPR = Trained XP + Untrained XP
PR = Trained XP + (Weapon NW - WA) + Armour NW

AdminShade January 4 2007 7:39 AM EST

MPR = Trained XP --> indeed this is just MPR

VMPR = Trained XP + Untrained XP --> this is called VPR, but can be seen as Virtual MPR

PR = Trained XP + (Weapon NW - WA) + Armour NW --> indeed

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] January 4 2007 7:53 AM EST

Surely VPR technically is total PR.

The PR on the home page is not total pr because it only includes items and not untrained exp.
VPR is only present within battles and adds on the untrained exp to your PR therefore making it your total PR.
It is added after item PR not before or if you had a character hording experience, with only weapons over the allowance and no armour, you would see your homepage pr reducing all the time which is ridiculous.
So from the facts, why should VPR not be classed as the total PR when the only time it is in use is to increase the homepage PR to the total PR?

QBsutekh137 January 4 2007 10:42 AM EST

What shows on the home page is "total PR" minus "virtual PR", using my terms. Glory's work too, more generically: what shows on the home page is total PR minus the PR gained from untrained experience.

I don't really care who has it "right"... I was just saying that, if you are having a PR discussion with me, I will redefine all the PR terms as I did above and will speak in those terms. In other words, I'm a bully: if you want to talk about PR with me, you are going to have to read the big, mouthful terms like "total PR" and "untrained experience" instead of trying to use acronyms that no one can agree on and are hard to re-direct inside one's head.

Miandrital January 4 2007 11:06 AM EST

Initial PR/MPR: 910,718 / 851,466
PR/MPR after 7 battles: 910,729 / 851,466
(without training any exp)

PR DOES includes untrained exp, therefore PR is truly everything combined (Trained exp + Untrained exp + NW PR).
The above is not VPR, VPR is simply MPR + untrained exp.

AdminShade January 4 2007 11:09 AM EST

Mian, was that with or without a tattoo? your tattoo sometimes grows... :)

Miandrital January 4 2007 11:16 AM EST

Oh crap.

Shade is correct, so this is my revised summary:

PR *DOES NOT* includes untrained exp, therefore PR is Trained exp + NW PR.
VPR is trained exp + untrained exp.
MPR is trained exp.

Which I believe has been stated before. ;)
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