Lower the Mushu penalty (in General)


AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 16 2007 4:36 AM EST

Another in a long line of self serving post by yours truly...I just went from 74% towards +10 on a corn to thirty something, don't know where I screwed up, but I obviously wasn't paying attention. I'm sure others don't do this that often, but it's made me completely sick of forging. Verifex has worked hard to cover as many bases as he can with his script, but I still find that automation leads me to laziness and eventual failure. I don't see the benefits from forging being so great that it deserves a penalty of that size. It's just ugly to watch two days work gone, and know I've now lost even more money trying to forge to raise my NW. Welcome to my pity party.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 16 2007 4:41 AM EST

the harshest result from fighting while you're tired is losing some clan points to farmers, forgetting you're in the middle of a cycle and having to close firefox (mmm memory leaks) and letting sleepiness win doesn't call for the kind of stupidity penalty we now have...

Help me keep playing and change it.

AdminG Beee February 16 2007 4:43 AM EST

/me puts on his party hat and gets out the balloons to join in the pity party. Poor Novice...

I don't see a need to change it though ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 16 2007 4:45 AM EST

nothing else in game even compares, fail as many bot checks as you like, you'll have to fail them all for two days to lose what I just did...

Why should forgers get kicked so hard when they've already lost the NW the mistakenly used BA would give them?

AdminG Beee February 16 2007 4:51 AM EST

Make a bad strat and your team will suck, that's a big penalty. As remote as it seems, but hit unlearn and confirm at training and that's a big penalty.

You have to_really_screw up the forge cycle to get hit with such a penalty. It hardly ever happens...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 16 2007 4:52 AM EST

almost a million CB in NW added flushed

Just tell me why it's ok here, and not for fighters?

How about loss of two days xp every time you fail a bot check?

How about instead of giving you an error message when you try
to rent something you can't afford, you just get fined a million cb?

Just one good reason for the gutting you get when you overheat would be great...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 16 2007 4:55 AM EST

I've done it twice forging this corn, using a script. All it takes is forgetting you opened a new tab, or the browser crashing. 700k cash vanishing because I looked away for a minute is stupid...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 16 2007 4:59 AM EST

even better, don't fix it and just remove the pop up from the bot check window asking to enter a 3-4 char response, if distracted clicking is what we're against...

AdminG Beee February 16 2007 5:01 AM EST

I guess the only good reason (other than it's a penalty and part of the package that is forging) is that it makes you pay attention to detail.

I've used the script for forging only on a very occasional Sunday and I must say I didn't like it. I was prone to get out of sequence and eventually disabled GM to do it the old fashioned way.

I do understand why you are upset and sympathise, but I'll be surprised if Jon reduces the penalty. Perhaps though...

Nerevas February 16 2007 5:07 AM EST

No offense man, but you're using a script- are you really surprised? Forging is quite easy (to me at least) and alot faster than spending BA fighting battles (unless you have a reliable 20 person favorites list maybe). So why use a script in the first place?

Kong Ming February 16 2007 6:08 AM EST

I also screwed up many times when using the script. Thus, I make it a point to remember the colour changes before casting and before tempering. That has saved me several times already ;)

QBOddBird February 16 2007 8:18 AM EST

I don't/can't use the script because my internet sucks. =)

Go dialup!

Talion February 16 2007 10:05 AM EST

I think nothing has to change. The script is a bonus. Forging should be done by hand because it is supposed to be hard. For mistake-free forging, use the Blacksmith. That's what he is there for.

Just my opinion...

QBsutekh137 February 16 2007 10:12 AM EST

Why should a forger have to pay more attention than a fighter?

I don't understand the two points people use to say "leave it" (this would go for more than forging:

-- It doesn't happen very often.
-- You must have really gotten off-track somewhere, so it is your own fault.

Well, the first one is just as good a reason to get RID of the harsh penalty. Rarity of occurrence has nothing to do with suitability of punishment. If you think it does, tell me, logically, how that follows?

As far as the second, yes, people get off track. Novice's whole point is that ANYONE can get off track. I can forget what I am doing and speed on the interstate, and let's say I get caught going 10 miles/hour over the speed limit. Let's also say it happens very rarely. If the police/system followed that up by giving me a $1,500 fine, or incarcerating me for 6 months, that would be unsuitable punishment (The Constitution has distinct language concerning such things).

Now here comes the "but this is a Jonocracy, so hush, Sutekh!". The form of government on CB has nothing to do with fairness and speaking out on what is, as novice is trying to point out, an imbalance. The harsh penalty for a whacked forge cycle used to be full loss of progress. Jonathan cut it to half. No one really ever asked or talked about why the harsh measure was there in the first place (because hey, it's sooo rare, who cares, right?) I never even thought about it because I never got affected by it. But I'm pretty sure forging has enough downsides already -- heck, for some items, forging barely makes more money than fighting!

So why must it be singled out with a penalty that is:

-- Too harsh for the "crime"
-- DOES happen!
-- Has no comparable penalty for any other style of BA usage.

Novice, I don't pity you, I completely agree with you. You've pointed out a glaring inconsistency, and I hope it gets changed. At the very least, it should be able to be made up via cash, like the bot-check-fail buyout. Maybe charge a 20%-of-upgrade price to get out of it? Or Ceiling it at that? In other words, of you radically screw up a cycle, you would just be double-paying the fee you have to pay at completion... Keep a penalty, just make the penalty fit the wrong-doing more appropriately.

Just FYI for folks who may not know, this happened to some folks even before scripts were in play. If the script is legal, there shouldn't be any difference in how someone using a script is treated. And if a script is not legal, then that person is banned (just ask DAWG). So the fact that novice was using a script has no bearing on this, in my estimation.

QBRanger February 16 2007 10:13 AM EST

If your using a script to help forge, then your using it at your own risk.

i used he script to add strength to my tank and it messed up, it put all available xp to str and I had nothing left to put into BL. Such is what happens.

Best to forge by hand.

Talion February 16 2007 10:38 AM EST

sutekh137, your comparison to going 10 miles over the speed limit and getting fined $1500 is not a good example IMOP.

A good example would be driving a delivery truck at the speed limit for 24 hours straight on cruise control to meet a deadline. If you fall asleep or if the truck has a failure... you probably die.

Such is the risk of trying to do too much in as little time as possible to maximize the reward. When you fail, it usually costs you a lot.

I do agree that you have a point about making the penalty harsher if this happens while fighting. But I haven't been playing long enough to suggest what it should be.

AdminG Beee February 16 2007 10:41 AM EST

You're prone to screw up if you click too fast when using the script was my point.

As for leave the penalty in place - why not? You screw up that badly (we're talking several clicks here) then you pay the idiot tax.

You screw up badly by xfr'ing something to someone by mistake then you pay the idiot tax.

You screw up badly by firing a minion by mistake or untraining then you pay the idiot tax.

Novice lost two days worth of forging because he wasn't paying attention. I'm sorry he did, but no more sorry for him than I am for the other people who screw up and cost themselves $CBs, items or exp.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] February 16 2007 11:14 AM EST

I think its a sign, you should quit forging and get back to fighting ;)

Ok G, why is the penalty so inconsistent within forging itself. Why get punished a lot for messing up a big nw + if you screw up near the end but much less if you do it at the start? Why is it much more risky to do a corn than a weapon x?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 16 2007 11:14 AM EST

I've said it, Sut said it...no one answered it...


Why should forgers have to have laser like focus?

The script isn't the issue here, the question is why forgers deserve to have the rug ripped out from under them when they mess up. This isn't anything like xfering items, or firing minions Beee, as both of those have BIG FAT warning signs and confirmation prompts, a few seconds looking away from the keyboard is all it takes.

I've hand forged tens of millions of dollars of NW into dbs, don't get uppity with me people. The script means that I can still play the game with the limited attention I'm capable of right now, and really does a great job of preventing all the problems it used to have.

The real question is how do people feel about the script giving you a warning beep and stopping you from overheating like it currently does when you try and click through a bot check...not really that semantically different.

AdminNightStrike February 16 2007 11:20 AM EST

Are you using an older version of the script? It doesn't advance for me when I get a bot check -- although I rarely forge, so maybe that's why.

QBsutekh137 February 16 2007 11:22 AM EST

These are all really good points, don't get me wrong. Yes, avoid the scripts. Yes, be more careful. Yes, firing a minion is a bad mistake. Yes. Yes. Yes.

However, to me, the question boils down to: when comparing forging to fighting, is there any comparable screw-up in pure fighting that can result in the loss of two-days work? Transfer mistakes, firing a minion by mistake -- these things apply equally to forgers and fighters -- both groups do transfers, manage minions, etc. So, those "idiot taxes" are equitable.

But when comparing the clicks for pure fighting and pure forging, the C-Enter for fighting and the forge recipe for forging, there is _nothing_ in the world of fighting (correct me if I am wrong) that can result in losing two-days worth of clicks. Even if I accidentally nuke my fightlist, fight during poor clan times, or forget to press "C" before enter, there is nothing I can do wrong enough in fighting to cost me so much.

That is what I am comparing, and that is what I would like to be more fair. The clicking specific to forging vs. the clicking specific to fighting. Does that make the point any clearer?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 16 2007 11:26 AM EST

NS...no clue what you're talking about, maybe you misread something?

AdminG Beee February 16 2007 11:30 AM EST

Why would a forger be on the train page to fire a minion, or unlearn by mistake?

Anyway, this is all a moot point. The penalty is there to "penalise" people who are careless. Novice, by his own admission, wasn't paying attention and now wants a lazy option that beeps at him. Jeepers !!

Why not just have a single click button that poofs all your BA in even cycles of BA at a time. That would solve all the problems.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 16 2007 11:31 AM EST

just saying something is moot is the lamest answer ever Beee...

AdminG Beee February 16 2007 11:53 AM EST

"moot" was the end of my list of reasons when I realised that my previously raised points were not being taken on board.

We don't agree, that's cool. Doesn't make either of us bad people.

If I can just throw a "Sutekh" (of on a tangent kind of parallel logic example) into things. In the UK we still have the death penalty for treason. It's a really harsh penalty (the ultimate) and it's never been meted out for years and years - should we just get rid of it because all you get for killing someone else whilst fighting is a jail sentence ?

QBsutekh137 February 16 2007 11:57 AM EST

GB, that is a good point -- the training page is something a fighter will visit more, more chance to fire a minion or unlearn something (unlearning a 3.4 million MM would be a LOT more than two days lost *smile*).

However, those options have warnings on them. Why doesn't a forge cycle going wrong display a warning, a stop-sign that says, "Are you sure you want to proceed with this cycle?" if it is about to go awry? That would make it comparable to unlearning a spell -- a final "duh" check that if the person disregards, they have absolutely no basis for disagreeing with the outcome.

GB, _no one_ is saying there shouldn't be a penalty. Read the title of the thread. Novice is asking the penalty be lowered further, and Rubberduck has the good point that even within the penalty itself there are inconsistencies (forging different NW values). We are platforming for a penalty that is more fair within the penalty itself, more equitable with what fighters deal with, and more in tune with the "crime". NONE of that should be dismissed out of rarity, laziness, or "the game is the game, tough!" reasoning.

Saying it's a moot point is lame indeed. The next time anyone perceives an item imbalance or anything of that nature, you can be sure my response is going to be "The game is the game. Moot point." every time, if that is really the stance you are taking on this... In bringing this up, novice is merely asking for balance in the game, much like people bringing up:

-- Early CB2 TOJ god status (Jonathan fixed with an "oh dear.")
-- Archery issues -- Jonathan found issues eventually, novice was a big voice in getting that fixed.
-- Removal of COBFs -- would you rather those imbalanced behemoths were still around?
-- Evasion factors being too large in ranged (at first). They got reduced.
-- Adding usability items, some very small, like minute-countdown till clan score recalculation.
-- etc.

The list goes on and on, and novice, while having a...unique...style, has been a voice of some reason and balance in the game. That's not moot, in my eyes.

QBOddBird February 16 2007 12:02 PM EST

I don't think the script has anything to do with it. In fact, we should probably leave it out of the discussion, as this has happened to me before and I have *never* been able to use 'Fexy's script due to my internet.

The question is why there is such a large penalty for making a small mistake while forging. It only takes two mis-clicks (TWO! 2! II! I will think of more symbols for 2 later!) to overheat too much and get a ton of your progress knocked off...that can easily happen for me without my even making a mistake, as my slow internet will occasionally hang.

Simply put: If I were to make a mistake right now, while working on NS's Helm's Gauntlets and get progress knocked off, I would lose exactly 1 week's worth of BA. A whole freaking week. It would suck, and so I have to be extremely careful - and not only that, but I'm getting no experience and no cash for this until payday, so it is a total loss if I screw up, not just monetary or experience.


So the question(s) I would like to see answered is just this: Why can I lose (assuming I were now at the end of my forge job on these HGs) 4M NW of progress with two clicks? Why is that even a possibility? What kind of penalty is that?

I think this is a completely fair penalty on small items, don't get me wrong, you screw up and you lose progress - but when I'm forging a ton of Net Worth into an item for strictly monetary gain over a great deal of time for a reduced profit over fighting, I don't think it is fair to penalize me half that work over two mis-clicks.

And remember, that particular argument is irregardless of the script, as I haven't ever forged with it in my life!


Oh, and correct me if I'm wrong on the two-click thing. And if I'm wrong anywhere else. I often am. =)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 16 2007 12:06 PM EST

I think the number of distracted clicks varies, but it's likely closer to five

AdminG Beee February 16 2007 12:08 PM EST

Definition of moot:
adjective: open to argument or debate
noun: a hypothetical case that law students argue as an exercise


Gimme a break guys - I'm not dissing your argument, I just don't agree with it :p

QBsutekh137 February 16 2007 12:09 PM EST

Two clicks...? You mean two clicks to get the recipe off into no-mans land where you don't know where you are? Then, that makes it easier to drastically overheat? I'm not sure, I've never had the misfortune (sounds awful though, I know how disgusted I would be by it...)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 16 2007 12:14 PM EST

wow, I've misunderstood moot every time I've ever heard it then...don't I feel stupid

I think it's meaning has been diluted in common usage here in 'merika to mean that the point someone is trying to make isn't worth making...or maybe that's just my stupid self.

Tezmac February 16 2007 12:23 PM EST

How people mess up forging is beyond my realm of understanding, and the following is just my two cents.

You have a recipe, say 22, 5. Ok, lets see, I heat up 10 minutes (wait for page to refresh). Now I heat up another 10 minutes (wait for page to refresh). Heat up for 2 (wait for page to refresh), temper (wait for page to refresh), so on and so forth.

There is no worry about adjusting your fight list, what equipment to upgrade next, what stats to train and to what level, what time you need to log on to purchase your BA, etc. Hell, you don't even have to build up a character on your own to forge with. All you have to do is pay attention, that's all. To get your progress set back, it's not a matter of "oops, I misclicked once because I was too impatient to wait for the page to reload" it's a matter of really screwing up your keeping track of where youÂ’re at.

I think if your only thought process in the game is counting to 22, hitting a different button, counting back down to zero, counting to five, then hitting a different button, then counting back down to zero, there ought to be a big penalty if you can't pull it off. Not that hitting "C-Enter" is all that hard either, but thinking about what to do with the results of all your C-Enter work is.

AdminNightStrike February 16 2007 12:25 PM EST

A moot case is argued by law students as an exercise because the courts consider it trivial, previously decided, or otherwise of no legal substance and unneccessary of being argued.

A moot point is one that is open to debate but is of no practical importance, or irrelevant.

The phrase "this point is moot;" or "this argument is moot" means that yes, there's an argument here, but it has no practicality in the bigger picture. Your argument might be valid, but it's probably pedantic in nature, in that the outcome will have no effect.


(Note that I am describing moot, not your argument, novice)

The definition in practice sometimes sways heavily to the "you have no argument side." In actuality, it means that you do have an arguement -- your argument is just pointless, either because it has no bearing on practicality, or it is ambiguous (or other reasons).

AdminG Beee February 16 2007 12:27 PM EST

I've just run a little exercise on a HoD. It has a heat requirement of 22mins. I took it to 22mins then kept heating it for 2 mins at a time - I was able to heat it 7 times past optimum before the dwarf lost the plot and hit me for a %. During that 7 times I was warned "You have a nagging feeling your Helm of Durin is getting too hot" before it exploded.

Then I tried it on my Corn. It has a heat requirement of 70mins. I took it to 70mins then kept heating it for 10 mins at a time. I was able to heat it 6 times past optimum before the dwarf took it off me and hit me for a %. No warning text messages this time although it did go white, then brilliant white which is something I've never seen before.

To go as much as 100% beyond what you're meant to is a big mistake and deserves a big punishment imho.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 16 2007 12:38 PM EST

NS FTW!

QBsutekh137 February 16 2007 12:39 PM EST

*sigh*.

GB, no one ever said there should be no punishment. No one even ever said it should be a "small" punishment. In essence, your argument is a straw man, because you are saying: "Well, there should be a punishment, so stop saying there shouldn't be".

We ALL agree there should be a punishment. We are talking about the SIZE of that punishment. And to determine an equitable size, we are comparing the loss of time to a comparable loss in fighting. When novice did that, he realized there IS no comparable loss in fighting.

Then Rubberduck (also thinking there SHOULD STILL BE A PUNISHMENT) also pointed out that even the punishment itself within the forging realm is inconsistent, because it is not a constant.

No one is saying to do away with the punishment, and no one is saying the punishment should be small. Some of us are merely asking that the penalty be made smallER.

And Tezmac -- have you ever forged? Saying "how hard can it be" doesn't sound like a relevant argument... Once again, the difficulty of the task and rarity of screwing it up have NOTHING AT ALL to do with crime/punishment compatibility. Why do some folks insist on bringing arguments that think it does?

Caedmon [Revenge of the Forgers] February 16 2007 12:39 PM EST

I think the penalty is ok, and I say this having taken the same hit novice did. The flippant response would be "at least it's only 50%, not the whole + like it used to be". Instead, I'll say this:

The penalty is fine. The reward is too low. At high levels of forging, forgers should have at least the same, if not higher, rewards as fighters do. If it is a worthwhile part of CB, to the point that Jonathan wants to keep it, then make it worthwhile, and not just the Tulwar of strats.

AdminG Beee February 16 2007 12:46 PM EST

At the risk of Beating A Dead Horse let me be clear.

I think there should be a punishment. I think the punishment should be substantial. I think the punishment that was meted out to novice was appropriate to the screw up he made. I don't think parallels should be drawn between the forge punishment and anything to do with fighting because it's not relevant and is not comparing same for same. This is not about balance for me.

The punishment is fine, I like it, in fact I love it and if I weren't already married I think I would ask it out on a date.

Tezmac February 16 2007 12:47 PM EST

Actually I have forged, not on CB2, but plenty on CB1. I can honestly say that I don't think I have ever messed up a cycle, much less screwed it up massively enough to warrant the game resetting some of my progress; you have to really not be paying attention (or be in a hurry) to pull this one off.

If your only thought process in the game is counting to 70 by tens and back down again, you deserve a harsh fine if you can't pull it off (IMHO).

I do agree with what Caedmon stated though. Since you do risk (it's not even a risk if you pay attention) one screw up hosing a few days worth of work, the rewards ought to be higher on the higher end of the scale.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] February 16 2007 12:52 PM EST

So from what you say G I assume you would prefer to see an additional penalty when screwing up forging a weapon x as there is virtually no penalty now.

QBJohnnywas February 16 2007 12:57 PM EST

I've only ever dabbled in forging so I'm in no position to comment.

However: "The punishment is fine, I like it, in fact I love it and if I weren't already married I think I would ask it out on a date." made me laugh out loud.


Lol. I feel scared for the punishment's sake. ;)

AdminG Beee February 16 2007 1:02 PM EST

Johnny,

I'd need a few beers before I could pluck up the courage to ask though. Have you seen the size of her brother "Retribution" ?

Caedmon [Revenge of the Forgers] February 16 2007 1:29 PM EST

Hey, some people are into that...

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 16 2007 1:41 PM EST

No one has an opinion on adding a warning prompt/cycle detecting bit to the GM script? I'm asking because I want to hear what people think about it before I start messing around with Javascript...

QBsutekh137 February 16 2007 1:59 PM EST

And Rubberduck keeps coming up with the excellent points... But hey, it would be too hard to answer them without making the discussion non-moot -- and we can't have that, can we! Much easier to BURN THE + FORGERS!

FreakShadow February 16 2007 2:09 PM EST

I'm a law student and jsyk, moot = "irrelevant at this point." Say you sue somebody and they pay you before you receive a judgment, the case is moot.

AdminG Beee February 16 2007 2:14 PM EST

Sarcasm
Sut ?

Winking 4

Karmic Mishap [Soup Ream] February 16 2007 2:30 PM EST

I have had the above-mentioned 2 clicks destroy 50% of my NW forging as well. Very annoying.

AdminG Beee February 16 2007 2:40 PM EST

If 2 clicks take you to this level of penalty then I would think it's harsh - I've seen no evidence to suggest it occurs after only 2 clicks though. Indeed the little experiment I carried out showed it was 6 clicks and 7 clicks over two different items.

By Novice's own admission he wasn't paying attention, so perhaps "mishap" by name... ;)

TheHatchetman February 16 2007 2:43 PM EST

isn't the overheating temp relavent the the necesary heat to forge something? I can see a corn overheating MUCH faster than I could see something like an AC or ELB...

QBsutekh137 February 16 2007 3:08 PM EST

I have never been sarcastic in my life.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] February 16 2007 3:13 PM EST

It's more of a bitter facetiousness. ;)

QBsutekh137 February 16 2007 3:18 PM EST

Burn the lurker. In lieu of that, cut her with a rusty scisor.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 16 2007 3:28 PM EST

*falls over laughing*

Xenko February 16 2007 3:42 PM EST

"Then I tried it on my Corn. It has a heat requirement of 70mins. I took it to 70mins then kept heating it for 10 mins at a time. I was able to heat it 6 times past optimum before the dwarf took it off me and hit me for a %."

I tried this on tempering step, normally 13 minutes, but I have taken it to 100 (in 10 min steps) so far, have 1 warning, and it still hasn't blown up or whatnot... Maybe heating directly after casting a spell only takes "2 clicks"...?

Xenko February 16 2007 3:45 PM EST

120 minutes to kill incur the penalty.

(0.0) [SeeD] February 16 2007 4:04 PM EST

what is the Mushu Penalty

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 16 2007 4:10 PM EST

Glossary entry I just added should explain

Sir Leon [Soup Ream] February 16 2007 6:45 PM EST

To many long threads to read but the only thing i'd like to say is...

Everyonce in awhile i close firefox for any number of reasons while in mid-cycle. When i return, the log does cover enough for me to remember where i left off at. No harm done.

What really gets me sometimes is, when i fall asleep before finishing off my ba ( I know, hard to believe! but still ) and Cache Flush has removed the log. When i wake up and spend my ba, this forces me to intentionally screw my cycle up by casting an upgrade of some kind.

However, Prior to realizing i should cast this spell. I have from time to time forgot i was in mid cycle, resulting in me restarting the cycle. We all know what penalty this innocent mistake leads to. How can anyone justify this as fair?

/me ends rant

Sir Leon [Soup Ream] February 16 2007 6:58 PM EST


"How people mess up forging is beyond my realm of understanding, and the following is just my two cents. " -Tezmac

You would be amazed as to how easy it is to mess up, usually careless mistakes but easy, nonetheless. Could read my other post to see an example. ;-)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 17 2007 3:33 AM EST

I'm done...
Rough progress meter: 25.487%

Karmic Mishap [Soup Ream] February 18 2007 1:17 AM EST

Strange. I could've sworn it had happened very recently with a CoI I was forging, but I just tried it and it took about 4 extra clicks. My mistake, it appears.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0021zW">Lower the Mushu penalty</a>