Score penalty for double attacking? (in General)


Dark Dreky February 19 2007 7:14 PM EST

I think that if you use two BA to kill someone once it should not effect their score. Why should you get 'credit' for killing someone that you cannot defeat in one try... this team is clearly superior to you and should not reap the benefits of a score boost. To reiterate, attacking a half-dead team and defeating them should not give the same rewards as if they were fully rested.

I only bring this up because it seems that the top scores are leveled out and do not seem to be improving. I don't know why this bothers me, but it does. It scares me to think that the top scores will generally stay where they are indefinitely. Anyways, feel free to agree or disagree. =)

Kong Ming February 19 2007 7:26 PM EST

But if that is the case, then the score of the number one character will just keep on shooting up towards the sky since probably no one is able to beat him and lower his score.

Mikel February 19 2007 7:31 PM EST

I agree. It would happen to my character, it's one thing if someone can beat you outright, and another if it takes 2-3 taps to do it. The Scores will never stabilize as long as you can do the tapping.

Mikel February 19 2007 7:34 PM EST

Kong, if you are the best and no one can beat you, shouldn't your score reflect it?

Tyriel [123456789] February 19 2007 7:34 PM EST

"this team is clearly superior to you and should not reap the benefits of a score boost."

What benefits?

Unless I'm missing something, the only benefits of a high score are higher challenge bonuses for those fighting you...

QBOddBird February 19 2007 7:43 PM EST

Agreed!

Caedmon [Revenge of the Forgers] February 19 2007 7:55 PM EST

Of course, it would be nice if a stalemate weren't counted as a loss for score calculations. It's not like I died or anything...

QBsutekh137 February 19 2007 7:59 PM EST

Let me get this straight: You want a new rule put into place so that a meaningless statistic (score) be made more stable instead of allowing a phenomenon that GIVES the attacked party the only thing that matters and cannot be purchased (MPR).

That's lidicrous.

While being tapped out of the Top Ten can be annoying, I'll take the extra experience to train any day. If I were the top dog, essentially unable to be tapped out of the Top Ten, I would WANT more folks to double-tap me! Don't be insane, man!

QBsutekh137 February 19 2007 8:00 PM EST

*ludicrous

QBOddBird February 19 2007 8:59 PM EST

sutekh, as I understand it, he's saying it shouldn't affect their score - not that you couldn't double tap up to their score, simply that it wouldn't drop it. You have to beat them properly to drop their score and raise yours, essentially. Or I think that's what he's saying.


*shrugs* Dunno, I can't think straight right now. xD

Kong Ming February 19 2007 10:03 PM EST

If the score doesn't drop, no one will be able to catch up with number one as long as he keeps playing.

GO PATS February 19 2007 10:05 PM EST

Well... you could always design a strat that beats "Top Player" and hunt just him, making your score higher than his... and since you don't have to worry about losing score to other teams that you aren't designed to beat, your score would eventually surpass his/hers, no?

Kong Ming February 19 2007 10:08 PM EST

If he puts in enough nw into his character and he has a good headstart, he will probably stay there "forever". If we can reduce his score by double attacking, that would keep things under control and new players will not be discouraged by their inability to gain number one position eventually.

QBOddBird February 19 2007 10:20 PM EST

If the score doesn't drop, no one will be able to catch up with number one as long as he keeps playing.

--Kong Ming, 10:03 PM EST

Are you kidding? All someone has to do is beat him and his score drops and theirs rises. This would simply make #1 a more desirable player to beat. It isn't like he becomes unbeatable or he gains more rewards just because his score isn't dropped from double tapping.

QBsutekh137 February 19 2007 10:26 PM EST

This is ridiculous. Score is meaningless. So who cares? Take the MPR.

Miandrital February 19 2007 10:57 PM EST

"This is ridiculous. Score is meaningless. So who cares? Take the MPR. "

Half the stats in this game are meaningless. However, that doesn't mean I'm going to stop trying to get to the top of as many as I can :)

QBsutekh137 February 19 2007 11:17 PM EST

And I never said you shouldn't. *smile* double-tapping is a way to move up one of those stats, if you are willing to give someone else experience in exchange. Sounds fair to me.

QBRanger February 19 2007 11:20 PM EST

Sut,

I would far rather have a higher score then the pitiful amount of MPR you give me by double tapping me.

I understand 100% why you do it, the top 10 exemption.

But DD does have a valid point. Why does your score raise and mine drop a lot when you defeat my character after 3/4th of my minions are already dead?

Score is not meaningless at all. It is a representation of where you character stands in relation to others. One can use MPR or PR, but that does not take into account strategy. Score should take that into account, but with the ability to massively reduce my score by double tapping, even score is not a good representation of that.

You know you can lower my score with a few double taps out of the top 5, is that a good representation of my characters strength?

TheHatchetman February 19 2007 11:24 PM EST

i say no double-tapping anyone at the top for a month! :P Then we all win :) (except for those who can't quite make the top 10 without doing so, but if they can't, then do they deserve it?)

Dark Dreky February 19 2007 11:25 PM EST

Sut,
I guess it depends on what "score" means to you. I always thought score to be an effective "level" or something like a game score. Score is something to be proud of and work to constantly improve. Much like a ranking system or a sort of "fame" factor.

I understand at the Top, views of score are skewed because of the exemptions and whatnot. I'm not really sure what goes on up there.

OB,
"he's saying it shouldn't affect their score - not that you couldn't double tap up to their score, simply that it wouldn't drop it. You have to beat them properly to drop their score and raise yours, essentially."

Yep, exactly! You can double tap your score up all you want (you're still on someones favorites list who will bring you back down). What I'm saying is that your score should not suffer from a double tap.

Realistically (numbers aside) why should your score suffer from it? You attacked the top dawg and he beat you and you then magically instantly ressurect while he is recovering from the epic battle that just ensued and smack him upside the head. Booo! Cheap shot! Sure take the money and experience, but not the fame (or score). Anyone know what I'm saying?

noneedforthese February 19 2007 11:28 PM EST

Score is meaningless? I thought if you beat higher score opponents you get more rewards?

TheHatchetman February 19 2007 11:29 PM EST

"Realistically (numbers aside) why should your score suffer from it? You attacked the top dawg and he beat you and you then magically instantly ressurect while he is recovering from the epic battle that just ensued and smack him upside the head. Booo! Cheap shot! Sure take the money and experience, but not the fame (or score). Anyone know what I'm saying?"

Dude... if you were to magically resurrect after the one known for being the biggest baddest mother around just slapped you down... You would be on famous dude...

QBsutekh137 February 19 2007 11:37 PM EST

Can you tell me why, PM?

MPR is the one thing you can't buy, yet you are telling me you would rather have score. I could have your score in less than 2 weeks if I so desired (would take some time to buy that much money). My large minion could make your tank/wall/leecher look like a wuss (My big three stats are 3.4 million, 1.2 million, and 2 million -- quite a tank, yes?). So I could spend a lot of money to get...score? Why? You can't forge with it, you can't sell it, you can't inherently win with it. You can, however, with with 410 AC and a big ToE. That's not rocket science. Hell, it's downright samey (three top five teams are ToE). I might have gunned after it more specifically except there was an even "samier" thing going on in the Top Fifteen or so -- DE-addiction. So, I focused on that.

Seriously, I'm asking here. What's the big deal about score? I got it from DAWG (god he was a baby when I would drop his score...I never heard such whinging!), I'm seeing some of the same sentiment from Mikel, and I'm seeing it from you. Is it a Battle Royale thing? Some sort of chest-thumping? Why do you care about score, especially when score is relative -- and you're already at the TOP! Who cares if you are at the top by 10K or 100K? Last I checked, the set of real numbers was infinite (Hint: you aren't ever going to reach the "end").

Explain to me why you care with more than hand-waving, and maybe I'll listen.

QBRanger February 19 2007 11:48 PM EST

Yes Sut,

You can have a massive tank, however your other minions are not that tough and as you know, you need good supporters to be at or near the top.

As I typed before, score is the best indicator of which character is better then another.

You type again and again that score is relative. I am asking why it has to be that way. Score should stand for something other than being a useless statistic. Let it stand for which characters are better than others. No "Hand-Waving" there.

Instead of attacking Mikel, DAWG and myself, explain why score does not have to mean something. Why even have it, if it does absolutely nothing but be another useless stat? I guess you want all rewards to be based on MPR/PR instead of score, since it is a "meaningless statistic".

I will give you a simple reason people like score: It gives them the best indicator of where there character stands in relation to others. Something you cannot get by comparing just MPR/PR. Something people can aspire to, getting a higher score then a competitor. But the ability to artificially raise ones score by a double tap makes it truly meaningless as you state.

So, let us change it to make it meaningFUL.

Now the ball is in your court to give a lucid answer.

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 12:05 AM EST

I already asked the lucid question, to which you did not answer (nor did DAWG ever answer me). What is the difference if you are winning by 10K or 100K if you are already number one?

You said yourself, several times, score is meaningful because it shows how you are doing in relative fashion. So, if you are Number One, then you are Number One. End of story. Why does it matter if you reach 4 million? 5? 6? DAWG once thanked me because I "let" him reach 5 million. Didn't have the heart to tell the dumb-head that he wasn't the center of the Universe and that I hadn't even noticed his score. Was good to see the big lud smile, though, I suppose.

You seem to think I'm sitting here _caring_ about your score. I don't! Guess what? With a 180 million-dollar weapon I could beat you. No, I can't test, because I'm not going to relearn, and I'm not going to spend $2500 to do it. What does your supporting cast gain you, PM? AMF? That's of no use against a tank. Protection, AS, and Haste? I neutralize ALL of those (even with my wussy supporting cast!). I'm not sure I could beat you currently, but if I started spending money, I assure you I probably wouldn't stop until I did beat you, and sorry, I wouldn't join your clan and play nice, either. *smile*

What I would do, because it's not that amazing, is go full-out archer (methinks a 200 million-dollar ELB would be pretty fun). Instead of dealing 2 million damage once each round (like with my MM), I could dish it out 2, 3, or 4 times a round, and I'd keep my FF just to keep things interesting. Plus, I don't use DEs, so bring on the DM! What would that look like? *shrug* I don't know. Like I said, my focus on this build is elsewhere: low NW, good leveraging of Junction (supporting cast) and magic, and a strategy that makes DE users frown. That's exactly what I wanted and exactly what I got. And I already achieved a goal I had months and months ago. Plus, I'm beyond tickled to be in the Top Five -- that is, when folks don't double tap me out of there! *smile*

QBRanger February 20 2007 12:15 AM EST

Sut,

I never said you cared about MY score, you care about yours due to the top 10 exemption.

As for me, it really does not matter if my score is 10 or 100k above yours-Much. I do like the way you lump Mikel, DAWG and me together. Sort of like were all multis of the same person and not independent people which we are.

I am sure you can easily beat me to a pulp if you spend USD, virtually certain of it. That is not a debate for this thread though. But it seems you cannot move past that point of debate. If you really try to beat me, I am sure you can. Heck, Novice almost did with a massive EC combo.

But what about the other people in the game? Ever think of them?

Score gives them a great indicator of where they stand in relation to others. A point I noticed you never debated. With the ability to double tap, that indicator is skewed badly.

Again I ask, why keep score a meaningless statistic (using your own words)?

Why not make it meaningful? Stopping someone from losing score via a double tap will help accomplish this.

Please answer the question proposed.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 20 2007 12:36 AM EST

"But what about the other people in the game? Ever think of them? "

i think many of them would be discouraged by having the number one team with a score 10 to 100 times higher than everyone else. in cb1, if i remember correctly, this was an issue. the todd/spydah team seemed untouchable and kinda made a run for the top seem pointless. at least the way it is now it does seem doable, until you look at the net worths and then realize what deep pocketses it'll take.

Nerevas February 20 2007 12:43 AM EST

I was thinking about this exact topic the other day. All the reasons for it have already been posted here so there's no need to repeat them. Very simply- score is the real player ranking. Multiple-Tap kills are invalid representations of character success and should have no bearings on score.

Dark Dreky February 20 2007 12:52 AM EST

"But what about the other people in the game? Ever think of them? "

Yes!! While score up there maybe not seem as important, Sut, this is due to the top ten exemption and your secure spot in said exemption. But don't forget about the little people!

Primarily, I fight for a higher score and the only way to raise my score is to either (a) change my strat, (b) buy some CB$, or (c) raise my MPR to fight tougher opponents ultimately raising my score. I don't want to lose MPR for retraining and I'm broke as a joke... so there's only one option.

My point is, because I know I'll never see the shores of the Top Ten island, I will forever fight to improve my score! Score is cool! And should only be reduced by opponents who can defeat you in one fight.

=)

QBJohnnywas February 20 2007 3:05 AM EST

Double tapping actually helps gain you rewards. Forgetting clan points for a moment; if you have six opponents on a fightlist and the one at the top is the double tap.. you can get higher rewards from one round of those six, than if you removed the double tap and replaced it with two teams you can beat in one.

It can help you climb higher obviously, and it already comes with a penalty; it is artificially inflated, so it doesn't take much to lower it.


Why should there be an additional penalty for it? Should top players be untouchable? No. Definitely not. This is a competition is it not?

Would you rather see the top five scores climb to a point that you will never be able to catch them?

QBJohnnywas February 20 2007 3:17 AM EST

/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001QPx

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 20 2007 5:56 AM EST

Score is not an indicator of how well you stand in relation to others.

I'll use an old charcater of mine as an example.

I ran a UC Tank for a while, could fight up get great rewards and great Score.

I logged off and a Team with 4 EC minons, built only to target large tanks, easily beat me and lowered my score.

So. Where does that put me? Is my indicator of standing when my BA fuled Score is at it's peak? Or when a tiny character designed specifically to take me down (while other charcaters that size oculdn't touch me) could lower my score drastically?

Somewhere in the middle?

Score is meaningless. You can specialise your strat, fight far higher than expected, can maintain an inflated score. does that mean you have the 'standing' to be there, or stay there? Or just the your anti strat hasn't found you to beat you back down again.

What's score?

QBRanger February 20 2007 6:15 AM EST

Of course GL one can make a specialized strategy. And can artificially inflate ones score. But when others attack your specialized strat, guess what, your score becomes more normal. The EC character you speak of was an extreme example, most characters have a more normal approach.

But when you fight, you can see what your score actually is.

But someone, anyone answer my question:

Why keep score meaningless? Why not try to improve it and make it more meaningful?

QBJohnnywas February 20 2007 6:27 AM EST

But where would you stop, with making score more meaningful? Do you set score so that it can't be lowered? So that it can only climb? What about those guys who've maintained a team since Jan 1st 2005, well don't they have a right to a HUGE score for keeping in place for so long?

That would be the real way to make it meaningful; make it so that it is an accumulation of score over the time you have been here.

But then that would make some people high scorers who hadn't actually played for a while wouldn't it.


The current way works because that score is snapshot of how you are doing right now. Which is all that counts. The way the game is set up you are only as good as your last fight.

QBRanger February 20 2007 6:46 AM EST

Of course score can be lowered, if you lose to someone else in ONE fight.

Score should represent how well your character is doing in relationship to others. Having your score lowered and someone else's rise by double tapping is a very false indicator of this.

Again, why should someone benefit, score wise, from beating you when 3/4 of your minions are already dead?

Perhaps they should get a small score bump for killing 3/4 your character but why get a large one for beating an already wounded character?

QBJohnnywas February 20 2007 7:24 AM EST

"Perhaps they should get a small score bump for killing 3/4 your character but why get a large one for beating an already wounded character? "

Actually I agree on that. As I said, I think score is a snapshot of what's happening with your character at that moment. But the rise and fall of score can be too dramatic.

If I'm double tapping a much larger char (or being double tapped) then I agree, the larger score shouldn't be pulled down as much; and yes, neither should mine climb as much.

That way at least, my 100% challenge bonus would remain intact. If I pull them down too far I'm eventually going to lose a chunk of that particular bonus....

The other thing you could do with score; (because I'm with Sut on this - what difference does 10k or 100k make if you're already Number One or Number Two Hundred And Twenty Five?) why not get rid of score as a stat and give us position numbers instead? That would be far more meaningful in my mind.

My old retired char The Clash was, this morning, number 23 in the standings, despite being retired for six months. So that char's score is meaningless. It's a frozen picture from six months ago. But the_standing_is not meaningless...

Just a thought...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 20 2007 7:30 AM EST

I like that Johnny! :D

As for Double Tapping, why then do we even have it? Why not just have defenesive target at full, no matter how many times they are attacked, and only when they are beaten in one fight go comatose?

Dark Lament has a score of 798K atm. My active score was more aorund 1.1 Mil when I was fighting.

Which is a better veiw of my standing? Why does my score increase by hundreds of thousands when I actively click 'fight'.

Wouldn't it be better to show I'd fought up to place 57. And now, as I've stopped ifghting, others have surpassed me and knocked me down to 62?

QBJohnnywas February 20 2007 7:36 AM EST

If you make it so that characters are at full power in defensive battles wouldn't that also affect farming?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 20 2007 8:12 AM EST

No. ;)

You're not getting the reward for winning, so being able to fight the same target constantly and losing every time isn't a benefit.

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 10:47 AM EST

PM, you said the "multi" word, not me. Don't left-hand-slander me by putting words in my posts that aren't there. That's not what I said, didn't even insinuate it, and I have no clue where such a leap even came from. And I'm pretty sure you know it. I have never thought that you, Mikel, DAWG, or any such "cabal" were multis. Leave the gossip and speculation to chat, friend. I really couldn't care less. I grouped you guys (and even stated the grouping mechanism) by clan (a grouping that is made by choice, by player). You have told me on several occasions about who you can fight and who you can't due to clan relations. I'm watching Mikel and having delightful CM chats with him about his up-and-coming NCB... It is going to be a great character (already is)! Sadly, we'll never know if it is more powerful than Koy because you boys won't fight each other regularly. In that way, not even a no-double-tap score is really meaningful, is it?

Why on earth would you think I was casting aspersions of multidom? Sorry, having a bit of trouble getting that shot out of the blue out of my craw...

What about other players? Double-tapping is just as much a device for players to use as it is one for getting used upon. It's like $CB price... A while back, some folks wanted to control CB price by joining up and only selling at a certain price. Others stated, very logically, selling CB dollars is a two way street -- what is "bad" for the seller is "good" for the buyer, and vice versa. Isn't this a similar situation? Yes, getting double-tapped (apparently) has some folks rather non-plussed. But there are people who like the double-tap, whether it be to get into the Top Ten, inflate a score for a nice screenshot -- whatever. What about those people? I'm still not buying that double-tapping is bad for the tapped even in terms of rewards, or good for the tapper in terms of rewards -- I see no grounds for that. Double tapping a high player bring their score down while giving them free MPR. The tapper's score goes up, giving all the folks that can beat them better rewards. EVERYONE gets more MPR at the expense of the double-tapper.

Finally, I will answer what I find meaningful... I don't think there is any way to make score meaningful. Score actually has a somewhat higher calling: it helps us find imbalances when we see someone skyrocket in score with a small PR. Score is what makes people debate the weapon allowance ad nauseum. Score may be meaningless to me when on a list, but it is INTEGRAL to everything else. It's like the salt of CB. Is salt necessary? Not really. Is it meaningless? I don't think so.

So, what do I find meaningful? As of late I have been taking pride in a different type of measurement -- who's fight-list I am on. In other words, how many people can beat me consistently enough that I am on their list. My latest minion purchase got that list down to Koy, Critters, Oxcha, and Lorenzo. I'm proud of that and could not care less that I am the only person who can see that list (though it isn't hard to divine from 24-hour battle summary).

How many people have you on their fight-list as a consistently defeated opponent, PM? I can't be sure, but I am assuming none. Right now, you've "won". No one can beat you. I'm sorry that there isn't a number or something that bears that out with more mathematical precision, but the fact is the fact, and anyone who matters knows it. You have a great team, great tactics, and I have to use twice as many attacks to beat you as you need to beat me. I'm duly impressed, and should be, and see no need for a score to make that any more clear.

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 10:57 AM EST

A better solution would be to keep score exactly how it is. However, reset both the attacker AND the defender to the "default" state on a second attack.

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 10:59 AM EST

So, essentially do away with double-taps altogether?

QBRanger February 20 2007 11:03 AM EST

Yes

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 11:06 AM EST

"EVERYONE gets more MPR at the expense of the double-tapper."

Actually, that couldn't be further from the truth. You've made my current NCB next to useless, as now nobody around me has any score left that I can hit, thus my challenge bonus is about as good as Ranger's.

See, Sut, Score is a lot like a fruit tree. You can't strip the tree of all of its fruit -- you have to take sparingly, and allow enough for it to continue to grow so that you can always have some fruit to eat. You are essentially strip-mining the score supply, and since there are so few players in this game, that's killing the score supply to people down as low as me in the 1.5m score range. The end result is that my challenge bonus, which was solidly 100% until you started this nonsense, now can't climb over 60%. Do you realize that that destroys an NCB?

So no, not everyone gets MPR because of your actions. You've caused me to lose a massive amount of MPR (Each day of an NCB is worth 7 days of a Jan 1 player... so for the past several days, which is the past several weeks, I've been taking a 40% loss on MPR gain........... thanks for that. No really, thank you. Now I don't have to worry about the hardships of fighting near the top, and I can forget about all the time I wasted playing 24x7 for the past month.)

QBBarzooMonkey February 20 2007 11:08 AM EST

dudemus, 12:36 AM EST "But what about the other people in the game? Ever think of them? "

i think many of them would be discouraged by having the number one team with a score 10 to 100 times higher than everyone else. in cb1, if i remember correctly, this was an issue. the todd/spydah team seemed untouchable and kinda made a run for the top seem pointless.


If one took the time to review forum posts by Jonathan since the very beginning of CB2, you'll be reminded that this is pretty much the bottom line as to why there is a CB2 and no more CB1. I'm willing to bet that it is why the "double tap" works as it does, and probably doesn't have a chance of being changed, either - Jon doesn't seem to want an "untouchable" Number 1 (or at least that's the impression I always got)...

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 11:10 AM EST

"So, essentially do away with double-taps altogether?"

No, you can still double-tap. You just have to be closer to the verge of defeating someone. Let's say you defeat a person 75% of the time. If you remove the score change on a second hit, then that means that when you get into the 25% zone, and you fight a second time, you won't get any score from that. Instead, reset both players, and on the second hit you're back to a 75% chance of winning.

What you can't do is foul up the game for the rest of us.

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 11:13 AM EST

BM: Double-tapping doesn't make the Number 1 position untouchable. In fact, since he gains MPR from the fights, it only strengthens his position. It artificially lowers his score, which doesn't make other people beat him more easily. As long as other people can't beat the number 1 player, he will always be "untouchable", double-tapped or not.

QBBarzooMonkey February 20 2007 11:18 AM EST

But if score is perceived as the competitive measure, bring the number 1 down and one's own up past and into number 1, is that the measure or not?

<sarcasm>Ya'll are confusing me - is score meaningless and thus artificially inflatable/deflatable, or is it the measure of competitiveness?</sarcasm>

Tezmac February 20 2007 11:20 AM EST

"As of late I have been taking pride in a different type of measurement -- who's fight-list I am on."

Since Jon added this feature, this is been my true measure of how I am doing. I completely agree with you.

QBRanger February 20 2007 11:23 AM EST

Tez,

I agree 100%. The 24 hour battle feature and the who's fightlist I am on are outstanding contributions to the game.

But I still like score as a prime indicator of where I stand and where others stand as well.

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 11:23 AM EST

Just becuase you can aritificially inflate / deflate score doesn't make it meaningless. Score is a very good representation of how well you're doing. PR and MPR mean very little in terms of the quality of your strat. Score tells you how well all of that PR lets you defeat another person. I could go and buy $45804895048905094 worth of PR, and it wouldn't do a lick of good if it's all in a dagger on a mage. Score gives you a good relative measurement of your success, whereas PR and MPR does not.

Ideally, you want to have the highest score with the lowest PR/MPR. That'd be the best mark of success -- the best Score:PR ratio on your own character.

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 11:26 AM EST

NS, you aren't talking about double-tapping then, you are talking about single-tapping until you happen to beat someone. You'd be surprised how rare being on the "verge" is. Even with all of CB's randomness, it is EXCEEDINGLY rare to be at a point where you win some of the time and the other guy wins some of the time, at least near the top. It is much more likely that you are win/draw with someone or lose/draw with someone, and even that is rare. 99% of the time, you either beat someone all the time, draw with someone all the time, or lose to them all the time (assuming only single-battles-allowed).

So, what you are asking for is full restore for the attacked when an attacker does not beat them, and you are essentially doing away with double-taps.

Just want to make sure we are calling a spade a spade here...

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 11:31 AM EST

Actually, it's not at all uncommon to be on the verge of a win/lose. It happens on 3 people on my current fight list. And if you want to call a spade a spade, as you say, then address my response to your totally outlandish claim that everyone gets more MPR because of what you are doing. What you are doing is screwing my NCB.

And no, I'd rather not do away with it. I want to keep it. I want you to stop abusing it and strip-mining the score away from everyone. Let Ranger build his score back up, and take from it sparingly.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] February 20 2007 11:34 AM EST


I want him to have that big score when he goes to bed, so I can have my big score all night long while the rest of you are sleeping!

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 11:38 AM EST

I will fully admit I was not thinking about stripping the tree of fruit as NS put it. I finally worked it all through in my head, and I see what is happening (and tell me if I am understanding):

1. Player (say me) moves up in score via double-tapping.
2. Players who can beat me get a short-term boost in rewards by beating me at my higher score.
3. Then starts the perceived bad part. The players who can beat me sit at the higher score, with no one else to beat. The rest of their fightlist is now below them in score. Rewards suffer.

Is that what you are saying NS? See, I was under the impression that for point 3, score does not have such a bearing on rewards. I.e. even if your score shoots up, if you can still beat people with a score higher than your PR, you will get the same good rewards. In other words, rewards have nothing to do with your own score, only your own PR.

In that way, I don't see how inflating my own score could _ever_ result in anyone else getting lesser rewards. If you can beat me, you can beat me, regardless of score, and the higher-score your targets are, the better.

What "fruit" am I stripping from you? Can you paint me a better example of how I am making your rewards less? The way I see it:

-- I cannot take targets from you. The most I can do is cause your targets to have HIGHER scores, thereby HELPING you.
-- I cannot force your PR to raise, which would make your rewards less. Only you are in control of your PR, except for a bit of PR I might give you if I double-tap you.
-- I cannot lower the score of your targets, unless you are already fighting people even above ME, in which case you would have to have one outstanding team (and would have a score higher than me already)! I cannot lower the score of people I beat who are already below me, at least not much.

So, looking at the ratio that controls rewards: "opponent score"/"your PR", all I can do is raise the numerator, and I can't changed the denominator. Therefore, all I can do is increase your rewards, unless, like I said, you are already beating people above me, meaning your score would already be above mine.

What am I missing here? For a while I thought I was truly crazy, then I worked through it all in my head again and am not understanding how folks are saying I am ruining their rewards?

Tezmac February 20 2007 11:40 AM EST

"...then address my response to your totally outlandish claim that everyone gets more MPR because of what you are doing."

I'll address it. What happens to Sut when I double tap him? He gets a small amount of free experience (that's right FREE experience), his score drops, and he gets a small amount of satisfaction knowing that I wasted some BA in order to do it. Does he drop out of the top 10? No. Does his score immediately go back up when he logs back on and fights? Yes.

So why do I double tap him then? To get back into the Top 10, as I am sitting on the edge of it (I think that THIS is the real problem with the game).

So in reality, when I double tap Sut, I'm actually doing myself a disservice (if the Top 10 exemption didnt exist); I'm giving someone I already can't beat free experience and I am wasting my own BA in order to do it. I am widening the gap between us.

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 11:43 AM EST

NS, since you seem to think the rest of the CB community is here to help with your NCB, I can't really address your concerns... I will fully admit if there is something I can do to make your character less effective, I will (though I still don't see how I am doing that, see above).

This is a competition, NS, not a Koom-bay-yah sing-along.

QBJohnnywas February 20 2007 11:52 AM EST

A team with over 700k MPR in just over a month is useless? Wasted time?

Man, NS, what pills are you on today? Can I have some?

AdminG Beee February 20 2007 11:53 AM EST

Score at 5:00pm isn't an indicator of how good you're doing.
Score at 8:00pm isn't an indicator of how good you're doing.

Double tap or not, score as an average over a period of time is a very very good indicator of how well your team is doing.

Perhaps we should have a stat "Score standings: 1 week". That will certainly be a good indicator imo.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] February 20 2007 11:57 AM EST

As G says snap shots of scores can be very skewed.
There is always the history graph.

I don't have a really good argument for keeping things as they are but for some reason I like it this way :)

QBRanger February 20 2007 11:58 AM EST

'Score at 5:00pm isn't an indicator of how good you're doing.
Score at 8:00pm isn't an indicator of how good you're doing.'

This is true since a double tap by an inferior opponent can lower your score by quite a bit.

One double tap from Sut or anyone else can lower my score by over 100k.

If a double tap did not lower my score, then score at 5pm or 8pm would be a much better indicator than it is currently.

If someone wants to get better xp from double tapping me and seeing if the better challenge bonus is worth 2 BA, fine.

But yet again, why should it lower someone score, when you are defeating an already wounded character? Why keep score as a meaningless statistic (which I think everyone agrees it is)?

Can someone answer my questions?

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 12:03 PM EST

I can't really answer other than to stick with my "score is like salt" analogy. It doesn't mean a lot to me, but I wouldn't want CB to be around without it. *shrug*

And it IS still a good relative measure. No matter how much I double-tap you, your score will always stay above mine (I think...has anyone tested that?) So, score will ALWAYS bear out that you are better than me. As a one-against-one metric, it is still perfect, yes?

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 12:03 PM EST

"NS, since you seem to think the rest of the CB community is here to help with your NCB"

I never once asked for your help score/rewards wise. What I did was to point out that your statement that you are helping "everyone" is totally wrong, as you are hurting me, and I am part of "everyone". You are not helping "everyone", and you are instead screwing the trickle-down of score so that more and more people are getting trash bonuses. It's been the topic of chat for some days now, as shortly after you started this nonsense, everyone acorss the board saw at first an initial increase in bonuses, and then an overall drop well below what they were before you started.

You need to understand that the number 1 player has the largest effect on the score supply. When you strip-mine his score, you cut off that supply. Ranger can no longer supply score to people the way he used to. If you let him build back up and do your double-tapping sparingly (or just let it flow naturally), then the supply could continue.

What you are doing provides an immediate boost of score across the board. When you continue to do it, that boost turns into a large drop. It's a lot like a sugar high -- you end up with less energy than you started. You may be helping yourself and the two other people who are on the verge of the top ten exemption, but you are hurting many many other players.

So again, I say to you that your statement that you are helping "everyone" is totally bogus.

Tezmac February 20 2007 12:07 PM EST

"You may be helping yourself and the two other people who are on the verge of the top ten exemption, but you are hurting many many other players."

Good, I hope he keeps doing it then.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] February 20 2007 12:10 PM EST

"You need to understand that the number 1 player has the largest effect on the score supply. When you strip-mine his score, you cut off that supply. Ranger can no longer supply score to people the way he used to. If you let him build back up and do your double-tapping sparingly (or just let it flow naturally), then the supply could continue"

This is wrong, how can score flow naturally from an unbeatable (in one fight) character?

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 12:15 PM EST

"What "fruit" am I stripping from you? Can you paint me a better example of how I am making your rewards less?"

Let's look at it in terms of cash. Say I had a great investment mechanism, and I could generate $100 a day. I then decided to give some of my cash away, say, $50. Charity, etc.

so I have $500, I make $100, I give away $50. I'm at $550.
I have $550, I make $100, I give away $50. I'm at $600.

Then you come along and steal more than I make... you steal $200. I'm now at $400, I make $100, I give away $50. I'm at $450. You do it again, and I'm at $300. You do it again, and I'm at $150. You do it gain, and I'm at 0.

Now what happens... I make $100, but there's only $100 to either give away or for you to steal. The supply has been overwhelmed. See, I was giving away $50 and you were stealing $200, but I only make $100. So eventually, that gravy train will come to a screeching halt. All the great things that happen because you steal $200 (and because you give some of that away, too) stop, and so does my ability to give away $50.

Now, when you factor in the score mathematics, and you realize that when Ranger's score is lower, you get less (ie, that $50 is not constant.. it's a percentage of the total cash), the situation gets worse. Now, Ranger is giving away less and less score, and you're stealing less and less. Score is the lifeblood of rewards, and you are cutting off that lifeblood.

See, my score doesn't affect my rewards. But the score off the various people I'm fighting DOES. And since everyone's score eventually drops after the initial boost because of your actions, then the scores of my opponents drop. In fact, the score of everyone's opponents drop.

The only ones that benefit are you and the two people on the verge of the exemption. Which essentially makes what you're doing even worse than what you always accuse BR of doing, since your actions screw everyone else in the game very directly.

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 12:17 PM EST

"This is wrong, how can score flow naturally from an unbeatable (in one fight) character?"

When Ranger has a high score and he beats someone, that person loses a small amount of score. When Ranger has a tiny score and beats someone, that person loses a lot of score.

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 12:20 PM EST

In retrospect, perhaps my cash example is too convoluted to accurately depict how score flows. My answer regarding Ranger's fights is probably more concise.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] February 20 2007 12:23 PM EST

Not true NS, as long as the attackers score is above the target the score drops little.

Double tapping unbeatable chars will only raise overall scores.

Double tapping other chars which are in the normal chain is another story...

Tezmac February 20 2007 12:25 PM EST

You are making absolutely no sense to me NS, and I'm not trying to be insulting when I say that. If Sut is constantly bringing down PMs score, then isn't he actually keeping everyone's score below him constantly higher instead of just a random occasional spike?

"When Ranger has a high score and he beats someone, that person loses a small amount of score. When Ranger has a tiny score and beats someone, that person loses a lot of score."

I'm going to have to call this out for the bologna that it is. PMs score is so much higher than the people that he is fighting, there is no way that he is sapping any negligible difference in score from people below him no matter where he is sitting.

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 12:29 PM EST

Then explain to me why everyone's rewards have tanked?

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 12:30 PM EST

"Shortly after I started this nonsense", eh? You do know I was double-tapping DAWG regularly too, a long, long, long time ago. Did you have a problem with it then? Did anyone?

What I am hearing is that I am not "properly" double-tapping. As if one BIG double-tap is better than a lot of little double-taps...? Or something of that nature? NS, ANY double-tap I give INFLATES score. It brings an untouchable score down and makes it touchable (because folks can beat ME in one battle)! You are mad that I am giving you a sugar-high headache, when without me YOU WOULDN'T HAVE ANY SUGAR!

I am helping you, no two ways about it. Don't complain about the low times just because you have seen high times. The "low times" are actually just "normal". I could just let you sit in the "low times" always, eh?

Here is how I see it, and I am going to say it one more time. Unless you contest what I am about to say (and you sure can, I could very well be wrong in what I am about to say), you have no case whatsoever.

================================

As I see it, rewards are based primarily on two things:

"your PR"
"their score"

If "your PR" is low, and "their score" is high, you get good rewards. Note: rewards are NOT based on "your score", other that Top Ten exemption issues.

Operating from that position (feel free to contest it if you wish, like I said, I could be wrong), here is what happens when I double-tap:

-- I beat a high-up character, thereby increasing my score ("their score", in the discussion above, for those who target me).
-- Other people beat me, reaping better rewards, because from their perspective, "their score" has gone up, and "your PR" has stayed the same. Score has nothing to do with the ability to beat someone. If you could beat them this morning, odds are you can beat them this afternoon. Score has nothing to do with it.
-- Once people have their score raised, thereby restoring the standard differential between their score and mine, their rewards return to "normal". This is what you call loss of the "sugar high" (except, unlike a sugar high, you are not worse off than when you started). You have experienced a period of inflated rewards, and are then returned to normal. The inflated rewards are 100% upside with no downside.

Now, here's what happens WITHOUT double-tapping.

-- rewards stay normal all the time.

======================================

If you disagree with the above assessment, please state clearly why that is. I don't care about chat speculation and/or anecdotal evidence. I have been double-tapping the top characters (not even always number one!) ever since I _could_, which means for at least 6 months now. I never heard boo about it.

About the only thing I can see that would contest my argument above is if you think rewards are based on something other than "their score" and "your PR". If you believe that, I'll need to see a lot of empirical evidence (or word from Jonathan) to change my mind. Your own score has absolutely no bearing on rewards, save for the case where your score means the difference between being 10th on the score list and 11th. Everywhere else on the score ladder, your own score has nothing to do with rewards as far as I have ever seen.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] February 20 2007 12:33 PM EST

Then explain to me why everyone's rewards have tanked?

Don't know exactly, but blaming it on something which has been going on for a long time seems pretty dumb.

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 12:36 PM EST

Everyone's rewards haven't "tanked", they have "returned to normal".

As far as the spike in rewards previously? You're welcome. I'm just doing my part to make sure your NCB is effective, safe, and fun, NS! It's what I live for!

Another reason your rewards may have "tanked" is because, well, the game gets harder as you grow. A LOT harder. Harder to find targets, harder to get good clan points, just...harder.

Like I said, show me less anecdotally how everyone is suffering so much, and then accurately attach that suffering to my actions, and maybe I'll listen to you.

Dark Dreky February 20 2007 12:36 PM EST

By the way,

You're all welcome for the wonderful post! It certainly brings out the best in everyone. Before this continues to get more personal, I'd like to bring an idea into play...

Tez wants Sut to double-tap PM so that he can get into the Top Ten at times (I think the same for Bast although I'm not entirely sure) and Sut wants to double-tap PM because... well I don't know why actually, better rewards? Regardless, I think the problem lies in the Top Ten exemption.

My suggestion is that instead of a fixed number (10) have it instead be based on a % of active players or characters. Set that percentage to some ridiculously small number so that it stays at 10 or maybe 12 for Tez ;) but allows for expansion based on the amount of characters in play.

Tezmac February 20 2007 12:37 PM EST

I don't think everyones rewards have tanked, that seems a bit ludicrous. I think you're just talking from your point of view (not everyone's, as you claim) because you're at the point where your PR is rising faster than you can add new people with higher scores to your fight list, thus your rewards are slowly lowering.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] February 20 2007 12:38 PM EST

Then everyone starts to create the maximum number of farms they are allowed in order to make it easier to get into the exemption zone.
Easily exploited.

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 12:41 PM EST

Yes, I'd rather be in a situation without your "helpfulness". I'd rather you not double-tap at all instead of what you are currently doing. Ideally, you do it infrequently (as in, allow the top chars to rise up again). However, barring that, it's better if you don't do it at all.

See, one of the things that happens when you inflate your score which inflates others' scores is that those people with artificially high scores get beat on very heavily, and their score gets artificially *deflated*. When you start to artificialy *deflate* scores, now you're cutting into rewards (since other people do attack those now-deflated people "normally").

QBRanger February 20 2007 12:42 PM EST

There used to be 3 high score characters: DAWG, Jayuu and myself.

DAWG got banned.

Jayuu stopped clan fighting and will soon quit.

So now instead of attacking 3 people with double taps to raise his score, Sut is not hitting me 3x as often, and my score is hovering about my PR.

The "trickle down effect" is there but far less than before.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] February 20 2007 12:45 PM EST

"See, one of the things that happens when you inflate your score which inflates others' scores is that those people with artificially high scores get beat on very heavily, and their score gets artificially *deflated*. When you start to artificialy *deflate* scores, now you're cutting into rewards (since other people do attack those now-deflated people "normally")."

Even if we accept this, what about the people heavily hitting the inflated scores, their scores are inflated etc etc

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 12:46 PM EST

To explain that further, when someone with a high score gets on someone else's fightlist when they wouldn't be there under normal conditions, their score plummets. For a good example of this, start clan fighting. As soon as there's a C next to your name, you will appear on many people's fight list, and your score will drop quite a bit. The same thing happens when you artificially inflate scores -- that gets coupled with a very painful artificial deflation. When you then push scores below the normalization line, then the people who are fighting within the bounds of normal attacking lose out.

The only ones that benefit here are the people on the fault line of the top ten exemption.

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 12:47 PM EST

"Even if we accept this, what about the people heavily hitting the inflated scores, their scores are inflated etc etc "

It's a lot easier to lose score than it is to gain it, as you can only gain 24 hours of BA worth of score, whereas you lose it based on 24 hors of BA * X number of people fighting you.

(0.0) February 20 2007 12:50 PM EST

Actually its how much BA they use fighting you because I doubt that people have 1 man fightlist

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 12:58 PM EST

Fair enough.. even still, it's not as limited as your own fighting.

Tezmac February 20 2007 1:03 PM EST

"When you start to artificially *deflate* scores, now you're cutting into rewards (since other people do attack those now-deflated people "normally")."

Now I somewhat see your point.

But it still doesn't explain how Sut causes this. So you're saying, that when my score goes up 50k-100k because I double tap him to get back into the Top 10, that a whole new army of opponents will suddenly notice my "massive" inflation of score and start double tapping me to get a few percentage points of higher rewards for 10-20 battles while losing half their BA while doing it?

Perhaps it's a bit more logical that the same opponents that always fight me will continue to fight me and slowly bring my score back down?

Or maybe the onus lies on the owner of the actual fight list to monitor the scores of the people he/she is fighting and drop people from it that are too low?

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 1:20 PM EST

Still not seeing it, NS! The "deflation" still isn't going to take anyone any lower THAN THEY WERE BEFORE THE CYCLE STARTED.

There is only upside. There is only sugar. Everything else is just "normal".

Here is what is happening (once again):

1. I double-tap, inflation ensues. Better rewards for all!
2. Folks enjoy higher rewards for a while, because everyone is at higher scores while PRs stay the same. Sometime this stage can be quite long.
3. Deflation occurs. Now, people have grown some ("your PR" denominator bigger), and scores go down ("their score" numerator smaller). Rewards _seem_ a lot less, but that is because time has passed and you have actually grown. You need to find new targets now.

Here is what has still NOT happened:

1. Folks scores are artificially reduced, meaning rewards get worse than "normal".

Once again, all upside, no downside. NOTHING I am doing is reducing score (except for the double-tapped), which is the only way I could be harming your rewards. That is, unless you think rewards are primarily based on something other than "your PR" and "their score", something you do not appear to be stating (yet?).

This is getting ridiculous, NS. I'm not doing anything here. I'm not reducing scores across the board, so, by definition, I cannot be reducing rewards across the board. Rewards FLUCTUATE, yes, but that is hardly my problem. I am still adding sugar to the pie by bringing untouchable "their score" into more usable form for others. I'm like a "their score" refinery, giving everyone gas, and then you are complaining when the gas (that you never had before!) runs out. Meanwhile, the double-tapped gets MPR from my losing to him/her. Like I said, EVERYONE BENEFITS, especially since I am double-tapping within the Top Ten now.

Sorry, I'm running out of analogies/explanations here... ?!

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 1:21 PM EST

Great idea, DD, I am thinking variants of that have been proposed for some time, and I agree that the Top Ten exemption does cause issues for the very REASON that it makes one's own score so meaningful. I have been saying and saying, one's OWN score should not be of such importance to rewards, and the Top Ten exemption is such a scenario...

Last Gasp February 20 2007 1:44 PM EST

Score is meaningless - ranking is what I care about. Am I in the top 100, top 50, top 25, top 10, #1? That is what I aim for... Scores are so volatile anyway... Besides, I can pick up a rental and drive my score up a bundle, only for it to fall back as soon as I lose that rental... but the rewards and building the strategy... that's what the game is about. :-)

AdminG Beee February 20 2007 2:28 PM EST

Sut, NS and PM. If you put as much energy into coming up with a plan to test your theory rather than try to convince each other you're correct we'd maybe get an answer :)

Why not have a little amnesty whereupon Sut does no double tapping for a week and someone smart monitors the statistics. Then the week after he can go back to business as usual and we can see what happens...?

Perhaps there's too many variables for such a simple approach to be effective but I'm sure if you put your heads together you could come up with an effective way to measure things out.

I love a good argument but lets put some facts down on the table - that's what I'd suggest :)

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 3:04 PM EST

Um, G_Beee, I have put down facts. I have stated how rewards are calculated, and then, via simple logic, showed that there is nothing I could do to influence said rewards in a negative fashion.

Also, I was not the one who started the "stop it Sutekh!" talk. In other words, I am the defendant in this case. The burden of proof is on the prosecution. I don't have to prove a thing.

However, I would love to see facts/proof/whatever showing that I am the cause of some sort of distress. It would be enlightening and educational, and my ears are wide open for such discussion.

I've brought clear thinking to the table while the most I can see from folks coming down on me is hand-waving... Except PM -- if he would prefer to have a higher score than more MPR, he is totally entitled to that stance. He'll still get a big "tough" from me, though, as I'm playing well within the rules and not really changing anything in regards to who can beat him and the relative score ladder.

If folks want direction on hard facts to contest my viewpoint, I've already mentioned how to do that: show that rewards are, in some meaningful way, based on one's own score when fighting. If that is the case, then the fluctuations I can cause would definitely be causing reward mayhem, and you would see my stance do a quick 180.

AdminG Beee February 20 2007 3:10 PM EST

Indeed, you're a wonderful person and always put forward the best arguments Sut ;)

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 3:13 PM EST

One out of two ain't bad. Thanks. *smile*

If I were further down the score ladder (and out of the Top Ten), I'd love to do more Challenge Bonus testing. As it stands now, I have no way of doing it... :\

QBRanger February 20 2007 3:13 PM EST

And all I can do is type from past experience.

When my score hovered about 4M, other scores were over 3M.

Now that my score is about 3.1 to 3.3M, I see others having a top score about 2.7M or so.

I really do not care if my score is 3 or 4 or 5M. It is nice to see it up that high, but the world will not end if it is not.

But I still believe that someone losing score via a double tap is just not right. It does not still make sense to me. How can you get positive score and I get negative score from losing while wounded.

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 3:23 PM EST

I'll even agree with you on that philosophical/realistic front... *smile*

But (my turn for anecdote), it is VERY frustrating when a high character is untouchable. Especially if the high character is perceived to be there because of USD. I say "perceived", because I want to be very clear that USD alone has not gotten Koy where it is. Not even mostly, I wouldn't necessarily say (though that 180 million weapon and 75 million AC does mean _something_ *smile*). In any case, it's frustrating.

I say that because it was a frustration I had on CB1. Hell, Spid got to the point where I couldn't even double-tap him (no way to diffuse AS). That's why I have concentrated on DM here -- I abHOR AS's ability to make even double-taps impossible. There was even a very short (I'm talking mere hours) time on CB1 where _I_ could not be beat, not even with double-taps. That was fun! But in lieu of that, double-taps (on me) are what gave me a great feeling. Knowing that someone was giving me more of what had gotten me there (MPR = PR in CB1), using up BA, canceling out clan points...man, that was EVERYTHING!

But that's just a personality trait... I can totally see why someone else might put more stock in the large score number itself. I really do. I just wanted to share why double-taps, to me, have the somewhat quirky trait of giving me enjoyment both in giving them and receiving. I love it as part of the game (unless it is shown that they really do ruin overall average rewards for others...)!

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 20 2007 3:27 PM EST

It's a relic from cb1 PM, like the double tap xp bug/feature Mem was such a fan of.

There was a point where double tapping was encouraged, and the code still shows this in how score is altered when getting beaten by a much lower scored char. Double tapping to get into the top 10 is by far the most talked about issue left that has to do with the old practice, and if Jon was going to change something I suspect it would have been back about 15 threads before this one...

Last Gasp February 20 2007 4:33 PM EST

sutekh... you *smile* too darn much... *smile*

Reminds me more of a rictus or the baring of teeth...

How about this? *grimace*

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 5:05 PM EST

LG, I assure you, I'm not grimacing... I really am smiling over here... I can read/write some fairly heady/intense stuff and not knock the smile off my face...

A big part of that comes from how much respect I have for folks here. PM, NS, novice, GB... (omission does not mean disrespect here): I wouldn't bother to point-counterpoint with these guys if I didn't have the utmost respect for them. Being in the same "room" with them makes me *smile*.

*smile*

Great use of "rictus", by the way!

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 5:23 PM EST

"show that rewards are, in some meaningful way, based on one's own score when fighting."

Nobody is suggesting that, so stop going back to it. You're only derailing the thread even more.

The issue is that scores get lowered across the board, and that includes the scores of the people that we are fighting. When we fight people with deflated scores, we get lower rewards.



"Still not seeing it, NS! The "deflation" still isn't going to take anyone any lower THAN THEY WERE BEFORE THE CYCLE STARTED. "

Here is where you are missing the point. Scores get pushed down far below where they were prior to the start of the cycle. A big part of what is new now as opposed to the last six months is that you were spreading your actions across several trees, as PM already pointed out. Now, you don't.

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 5:28 PM EST

"A team with over 700k MPR in just over a month is useless? Wasted time? "

700k MPR in 30 days isn't all that great.. it is an accomplishment for me personally, in that it took my entire NCB last time to get to 750k or so. But still, others are faring much better, I think.

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 5:42 PM EST

You state:
============
"show that rewards are, in some meaningful way, based on one's own score when fighting."

Nobody is suggesting that, so stop going back to it. You're only derailing the thread even more.
============

I am not trying to derail the thread... I keep "going back to it", because if you don't think that is true, I am still having a hard time understanding how you think my actions are, on average, lowering people's scores from equilibrium. In other words, I am going back to it because your unfounded nonsensical blatherings are leaving me in a vacuum (except for the part where this is all my fault -- that's still squarely on me, apparently...)

You state:
===============
The issue is that scores get lowered across the board, and that includes the scores of the people that we are fighting. When we fight people with deflated scores, we get lower rewards.
===============

Scores "get lowered" by what means? And lower than what? I put forth that scores do not deflate any further than their "normal" equilibrium point (remember, folks below drag down scores too... what must you think of THEM?). Are you saying otherwise? If so, prove it. Otherwise, stop telling lies about me.

You state:
===============
"Still not seeing it, NS! The "deflation" still isn't going to take anyone any lower THAN THEY WERE BEFORE THE CYCLE STARTED. "

Here is where you are missing the point. Scores get pushed down far below where they were prior to the start of the cycle. A big part of what is new now as opposed to the last six months is that you were spreading your actions across several trees, as PM already pointed out. Now, you don't.
===============

HOW?! PROVE IT! How can scores go lower than they were before the cycle started? Scores can only deflate substantially by losing to people BELOW YOU. I can't "push" you down, you need to be "pulled" down -- from below your current position, and/or by being inactive for a long time.

I STILL spread myself out. I fight Critters and Koy, both folks above 3 million score. There's only one tree, man. One score ladder.

You are telling lies about me. You are stating that I am causing something to happen without providing any proof of any kind that it is even HAPPENING, much less that I (or double-tapping) cause it!. And it would appear your grasp of logic is failing as well. Show me:

-- How the average score on the score ladder can deflate further than when it started when going through a "double-tap cycle".
-- How, once you show it deflates further, my actions have anything to do with that. In other words, show how I, from the top, can PUSH scores downward to such an extent.
-- Prove to me that the lack of rewards in your personal viewpoint is in no way related to poor target choice and/or PR growth in your character.
-- Show me this large number of persons who have issues with my actions. Hand-waving and anecdotal chat evidence not allowed.

Awaiting your response...

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 5:44 PM EST

Lol... NS, if others are faring much better, clambering up the very same score ladder as you, isn't that a bit of a sign that the problem lies with YOU? That your horribly unjust, distressing, totally ruined NCB is due, in some part, to YOU doing something wrong?

If other folks are doing OK, despite my terrible, malevolent, CB-ruining double-tapping, then who is the "we" in your previous post?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 20 2007 5:53 PM EST

As for rewards (Please forgive me, I've probably missed a lot of this discussion...), score matters not a jot, once your challenge bonus is 100%. If you get that fighting people with 1 Million score, you get the same facing 2 Million.

So, really, who cares if the Top Ten condense score a little? Apart from the Top Ten.

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 5:57 PM EST

If you don't think that scores can be pushed down and must be pulled down, then you've never bounced back and forth between clan fighting and normal fighting. One of the downsides to clan fighting is that people much bigger than you in score and PR fight you because you are in a clan. When that happens, your score drops considerably, even if you are lower than they are. When I was fighting with MyFirstNCB, I would hover around 1.3m while in a clan and 2m while not in one. When I stopped fighting, I settled around 1.65, as I recall. The reason is that numerous people above me, people with larger scores, added me to their fightlist and hit me down rather far. No one was fighting me with a score below me.

The same thing happens here. Let's say that you have a normal score of 1m, and you inflate that to 1.5m. You then become very attractive to others, and wind up on many fightlists. Your score then drops to, say, 750k. You are now below the 1m mark. Now, everyone fighting you normally (as opposed to those who added you because you were at 1.5m), see reduced rewards, despite the fact that your PR setup is a typical target.

I think what you might be missing is that you can indeed drive someone's score down from above as opposed to pulling it down from below. Granted, pulling is easier, but pushing is much more effective than you might think.

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 5:58 PM EST

GL: Score:PR affects the challenge bonus. There are other factors at play that affect the base reward which gets modified by the challenge bonus.

Tezmac February 20 2007 5:59 PM EST

Well then your problem seems to be my suggestion about 15 or so posts up...

"Or maybe the onus lies on the owner of the actual fight list to monitor the scores of the people he/she is fighting and drop people from it that are too low?"

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 6:03 PM EST

To a point, yes, which is why I've been offering people money to boost their scores =)

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 6:03 PM EST

Then why aren't you addressing that, instead of singling out double-tapping as the problem?

If people beating you, up at double your score, can really make your score go quickly from 1.5 million to 750K, and you are sure that is a push from the top, (not your peers pulling you back down to reality after seeing how juicy you are), then that sounds very silly and should be changed. If I have 2 million score and fight someone at 1 million score, and they remain active, there should be absolutely no way I can push them down significantly.

And yes, I've done all kinds of fighting, not in a clan, then in a clan, fighting a mix, fighting only clanners, fighting only non-clanners. I never noticed significant score fluctuations that weren't related to lower folks dragging me down. In other words, I never felt "pushed" down, and it wasn't for lack of being farmed to perdition, I assure you.

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 6:14 PM EST

When I joined a clan with MyFirstNCB, I quickly lost hordes of score. A quick check of the 24-hour fight summary showed that everyone fighting me was way above me. Eventually, my clan disbanded, and I tried again in a week. In the interim while being non-clan, I got my score up again. I joined a clan, and lost a ton. The third time, I switched to Econ and kept my score up until I broke Top 20. Then I retired and took a break from CB, as I had achieved my goal (a formidable one, at that, given my lack of experience).

Bottom line is that the people fighting me were above me in score.

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 6:16 PM EST

"Lol... NS, if others are faring much better, clambering up the very same score ladder as you"

Score != MPR

AdminNightStrike February 20 2007 6:19 PM EST

"That your horribly unjust, distressing, totally ruined NCB is due, in some part, to YOU doing something wrong? "

Further, I didn't say that 700k in 30 days was trash... I'm just saying that there are others (ie, Mikel), who do better. As I've stated several times, I'm proud of my accomplishment, as I've quadrupled what I did in my previous NCB (and with only a 2% increase in NCB bonus).

I think you're really getting excited now, Sut... I think I'm going to let you foam at the mouth here for a spell while I go do other things.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] February 20 2007 6:20 PM EST

If these supposedly inflated scorers are getting hit more and ending up with a lower score than they would otherwise have (highly doubtful imo) then someone else is not getting hit....

I still maintain that double tapping to kill an untouchable can only cause a ripple of higher scores all the way down.

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 6:26 PM EST

Careful, Rubberduck, NS is going to say you are doing something wrong, not prove what he says, and then tell you to calm down when you take issue with it.

Just warning you... *smile*

QBOddBird February 20 2007 6:31 PM EST

Looking at all the veiled (and non) insults, I see quite a few low blows. Hope none of you were planning on having kids again.

QBJohnnywas February 20 2007 6:32 PM EST

Legs

QBRanger February 20 2007 6:36 PM EST

I already have 2 kids, trust me, no more are needed.

QBsutekh137 February 20 2007 6:39 PM EST

NS, here is another thing you are forgetting: people below me can't beat me as easily as they could before I hired minions three and then four. Dixie Cousins would be a good example of someone who used to be able to beat me from a lower score (one fight) but got drug down by other, lower-still folks. Now she has to double-tap me (and she does). As does Tezmac. But overall, being harder to beat means less ripples further down, meaning whatever phenomenon you are lamenting the loss of occurs less intensely, I suppose. I'm still confused as to how you think me doing nothing (and PM's score just going up-up-up) would be a better solution...?

So, part of your issue is just the fact that I'm better now. Sorry that's causing such a problem for you (though I'm sure that had you started with an NCB bonus having my current MPR built in, you'd have no problem with that. *smile*). I'll be sure to try harder at sucking from here on out, thereby laying out the red carpet for you. Better? In the meantime, since we're making demands:

First off, everyone in a clan (other than me) needs to start fighting people they lose too. Me, if you can manage it. I'd like to be the #1 clan all the time. OK? THANKS!

Second, anyone spending USD, stop. I will give you my Pay Pal address and you can just send the money to me. I will then use that money to beat you (well, everyone except NS, I guess). OK? THANKS!

Third, please bring various plates of fruits, meats, and cheeses to my home. I am partial to Havarti and kiwis. OK? THANKS!

Fourth, when I am at the top and my score is approaching 10 million, don't double-tap me! It's ruining the game for me! OK? THANKS!

QBBarzooMonkey February 20 2007 10:38 PM EST

If Sut and NS get all that, then I demand a pony. I don't think that's too much to ask...

:)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 21 2007 1:19 AM EST

crud, now I have to go to all the way to Marina to the mecca deli and get brochen (german bread) w/roast beef and havarti (where else can you get lunch for $1.50...sometimes less if I smile big enough)
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