Ranged, Clearsight changes (in Changelog)


AdminJonathan March 2 2007 4:50 PM EST

First change: ELB damage reduced about 20%. Compound bow damage reduced about 5% and other bows are about the same. Short bows may even do more damage but I didn't actually do the math.

Second, exbow and axbow drain increased by about 20%.

Third, Clearsight works differently now. Instead of getting 2 attacks in "round 4," the first round of ranged, clearsighted minions now get an extra attack in an earlier round, and penalties of "one round later."

That's a bit confusing so here's an example for an ELB user:

BEFORE:

ranged 4: 2 attacks @ range 4 penalties
ranged 3: 1 attack @ range 3 penalties
ranged 2: 1 attack @ range 2 penalties

NOW:

ranged 5: 1 attack @ range 4 penalties
ranged 4: 1 attack @ range 3 penalties
ranged 3: 1 attack @ range 2 penalties
ranged 2: 1 attack @ range 2 penalties

This also means clearsighted CoC (and Decay) users get to fire in the last round of ranged.

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 4:55 PM EST

"Second, exbow and axbow drain increased by about 20%."

Fixed drain per 'x or % drain per 'x' was increased? Or both?

AdminJonathan March 2 2007 4:56 PM EST

both

QBJohnnywas March 2 2007 4:56 PM EST

Ooh, nice changes; although it's a shame I'm using an ELB lol. But especially the CoC change. Nice to see.

;)

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 5:00 PM EST

It looks like the extra ranged attack now have lesser penalties. Since before you had 2 attacks with big penalties, 1 with medium penalties, and 1 with small penalties.... now you have 1 with big, 1 with medium, and 2 with small. Is there a mistake in your chart, or did you intend to make the extra attack be delivered with a small penalty instead of a big one?

QBJohnnywas March 2 2007 5:04 PM EST

PM will be very happy. Less damage from those ELBs but now HoC wearers get to start fighting before he does. One whole round at the start of the game....

Who's wearing a HoC right now? Freed and Sut...lol

QBJohnnywas March 2 2007 5:07 PM EST

Now I'm definitely liking this. I get a whole round right at the start to hit non HoC teams. Time to start hunting....;)

[T]Vestax March 2 2007 5:09 PM EST

Hmmm.. CoC love you say.

QBsutekh137 March 2 2007 5:10 PM EST

I'm not following... End of Days is hitting me every time (three times, no less) in the first round of ranged... Shouldn't there still be misses in there before the hits?

In other words, in the "NOW:" section of the original post:

"ranged 5: 1 attack @ range 4 penalties"

I should be seeing Freed miss just as much as he used to:

BEFORE:
ranged 4: 2 attacks @ range 4 penalties

I am not seeing that. "ranged 5" he is hitting me with three arrows, where before he used to miss entirely.

th00p March 2 2007 5:11 PM EST

/me watches his strat get nerfed to the floor.

It was needed though, nice change on both ends Jon!

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] March 2 2007 5:11 PM EST

-Thickness warning-

Do junctioned HoC Ice Familiars get the ability to hit in last round of ranged?

Nerevas March 2 2007 5:15 PM EST

Freed switched back to his ToA, that's why.

AdminJonathan March 2 2007 5:15 PM EST

you're right, sutekh; fixed bug

QBsutekh137 March 2 2007 5:16 PM EST

King of Pain (Mikel) is also 2/2 in the first ranged round, where before he would quite often be 0/2 or 1/2 (and that was the "whole" Round One previously, which is like rounds 1 and 2 together now...he doesn't live to round two, though).

By the example in the OP, those first shots should still have "range 4 penalties" and I should be seeing misses. I have not seen a single miss yet.

Nerevas March 2 2007 5:19 PM EST

For anyone interested, HoC also allows decay to cast once in the last round of ranged now along with CoC.

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 5:19 PM EST

Does Evasion work at a range of 5? If it does, is it multiplied by 3 or 4?

QBJohnnywas March 2 2007 5:20 PM EST

Decay as well? If that's intentional that's...kind of interesting.....hmmm......

QBJohnnywas March 2 2007 5:22 PM EST

Now that would be really interesting, if evasion now only starts at round 2 (I mean 4...this is getting confusing....;) )

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 2 2007 5:23 PM EST

Why is round 1 being referred to as round 4...it's cooking my poor little brain.

The buff to CoC is spiffy, but increasing already huge drain for special xbows seems silly, we were already at a point where a double hit from the big xbows would demolish even 3 mil dex, I don't see why it needs to be possible to do it in one hit.

Archery needs to have it's level requirement reduced in my stupid opinion, it's usefulness is already heavily in question since the discovery that the ToA's plus to hit isn't penalized without it. The dex required to hit evasion users is massive, and having 1/4 of your STR as a penalty just to use the PTH you payed for already is harsh enough. Now we've lost 1/5 of the damage that is everything to the strat, Archers have to use an item that ONLY adds to damage, and now we've essentially lost half of the beleg's damage boost.

QBsutekh137 March 2 2007 5:24 PM EST

Jonathan, no go. Crisis, King of Pain, End of Days, all still pegging me multiple times in first round of ranged. No change since you stated fix.

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 5:24 PM EST

"Why is round 1 being referred to as round 4...it's cooking my poor little brain"

I imagine that's a typo in the original post... instead of "2 attack in round 4", read it as "2 attacks in range 4"

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 2 2007 5:26 PM EST

*dances at the decay buff*

fear my coming NCB AoI teams!

AdminJonathan March 2 2007 5:28 PM EST

evasion gets a larger bonus in range 5 than 4, yes (just fixed that now :)

th00p March 2 2007 5:29 PM EST

Was the evasion bonus increased from it's previous level in the "first round" (first shots fired) or was it just shifted?

AdminJonathan March 2 2007 5:32 PM EST

added clearsight rounds to xbows.

QBsutekh137 March 2 2007 5:33 PM EST

"Hubbell defeated The End of Days (Hidden Agenda) after 3 rounds of combat"

That's back to normal.

Crisis and KoP are missing as usual too.

By the looks of it, Evasion was completely turned off. Now it is working, and I guess my Evasion works even better in that first ranged round. Are you going to re-tell us all the multipliers for completeness here?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 2 2007 5:35 PM EST

Wow, talk about a nasty nerf, evasion gets a buff, extra shots are moved to later rounds (allowing minions to live longer and do more damage), and damage is reduced, I don't think things were that out of whack.

AdminJonathan March 2 2007 5:35 PM EST

i told you the multipliers before? i must be getting senile :)

QBJohnnywas March 2 2007 5:38 PM EST

Nov, hasn't made a bit of difference to my fightlist. Admittedly I'm down amongst the dead men here, but still; if anything this has made my team better.

yours sincerely an ELB user, London.

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 5:38 PM EST

"i told you the multipliers before? i must be getting senile :) "

3x in round 1, 7/3 in round 2, and 5/3 in round 3

AN|M4L March 2 2007 5:38 PM EST

What are the evasion multipliers now?

QBsutekh137 March 2 2007 5:38 PM EST

Side thoughts/questions:

-- With the "halves" of the previous round one being split into two "rounds", does that mean Fireball accurately retargets now? I.e. it knows what is dead so suffers lest dilution on that second shot?
-- I am confused as to why Evasion works even better now in the first "round"... You say that: "ranged 5: 1 attack @ range 4 penalties"...shouldn't that apply to Evasion as well? In other words, Evasion multipliers are, in effect, a "penalty" for archers, so shouldn't Evasion multipliers be left alone? If before the Evasion multipliers went:

Round 1: X
Round 2: Y
Round 3: Z

should they not now go:

Round 1.1: X
Round 1.2: Y
Round 2: Z
Round 3: Z

if going by what is written in the OP? From what I am reading, you are saying things are now:


Round 1.1: W
Round 1.2: X
Round 2: Y
Round 3: Z

where W is even better than X was before?


AN|M4L March 2 2007 5:41 PM EST

Sut is thinking what I am thinking... Jon?

[T]Vestax March 2 2007 5:42 PM EST

Evasion isn't a ranged penalty. It's a bonus to the defending player. The penalties are the natural reduction in ranged damage.

QBsutekh137 March 2 2007 5:43 PM EST

The reason I say that is because I am beating EoD more consistently now, and, well, that just doesn't seem right. We're both clear-sighted -- I would expect our dynamic to remain the same...? Even better, if he can manage to kill Joe in Round 1.1, Joe doesn't get that second shot -- I think that is EXTREMELY well-designed and exactly how it should work.

In other words, this change is masterful. It's elegant, intuitive, and spreads out that crazy round-one damage that was just...crazy.

I just don't think Evasion in Round 1.1 should be greater than it used to be in round 1.

th00p March 2 2007 5:44 PM EST

Agreed.

AdminJonathan March 2 2007 5:45 PM EST

objection noted :)

yes, retargetting works normally for the clearsight round now.

QBsutekh137 March 2 2007 5:46 PM EST

I see your point, Vestax, it just doesn't seem consistent. More generically, this change means: "Round one is split into 1.1 and 1.2 for clearsight users, with 1.1 acting like the old 1, and 1.2 acting like the old 2."

That's how I see it, and that would mean Evasion gets no buff in "1.1".

AdminJonathan March 2 2007 5:47 PM EST

here's another way to look at it:

with clearsight, he get less penalty in range 2 3 4 than he did before, while your evasion bonus is the same. that somewhat balances out you getting more evasion now in range 5.

QBsutekh137 March 2 2007 5:48 PM EST

Hey, I'll keep the buff, fine by me...just stuck out to me, though I don't know about any other changes coming either. *smile*

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 5:50 PM EST

Now that wearing an HoC changes the total count for the number of rounds, what happens at round 25? Will the HoC minion stop fighting, and the non-HoC minions fight to round 26? Or does the HoC effectively remove a round of fighting form the other team at the end?

QBsutekh137 March 2 2007 5:52 PM EST

I see what you mean, Jonathan, it is just that rounds 1 and 2 are so crucial to me, that this becomes an inadverdant Hubbell buff in my battle with EoD.

He does still ting me sometimes, so that makes me feel better. And when he does, it goes from a loss to a win for him...

QBJohnnywas March 2 2007 5:54 PM EST

NS, you mean is this really - despite the ELB damage reduction; a ranged buff and a melee nerf?

QBsutekh137 March 2 2007 5:55 PM EST

And Karn just CMed me a good point... In a way, if a seeker can kill in one shot, this change makes seekers even more powerful. Whereas before my mage would have still gotten two shots out, now he would only get one because of dying in round 1.1.

In that sense, the Evasion buff in round 1.1 makes a great deal of sense. For you mages without Evasion...ouch. Seekers hurt even more now, though with the damage reduction, single-shot kills should occur less now...

QBJohnnywas March 2 2007 5:57 PM EST

"though with the damage reduction, single-shot kills should occur less now..."

nah, bow users will just up the amount of money they put into damage. ;)

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 5:57 PM EST

WoW: since I routinely go 25 rounds with people, I'd like to know if tha'ts going to get cut short to essentially only 21 melee rounds instead of 22.

QBJohnnywas March 2 2007 6:01 PM EST

Well, it is sort of a blow for UC teams if that is the case....

Flamey March 2 2007 6:10 PM EST

If you use no ranged against a HoC user, you get 21 melee rounds.

I feel special.

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] March 2 2007 6:10 PM EST

NS: I think it might be like round 2 used to be, round 2 counted as a round, but wasnt used (visible) unless you had either archery or a sling

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 6:10 PM EST

Just verified this with Karn and TBH:

If team A wears an HoC against team B without one, team B only gets to fight for 24 rounds total, 21 in melee. Team A gets to fight for 25 rounds total, 21 in melee. So yes, this hurts UC, which used to at least be better than CoC...

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 6:11 PM EST

Addendum: this is contrary to being able to get 22 melee rounds.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 2 2007 6:12 PM EST

Why have a cap on the number of rounds?

Xenko March 2 2007 6:14 PM EST

To stop stalemates from continuing on forever.

QBRanger March 2 2007 6:14 PM EST

To prevent an infinite amount of battles rounds in those cases where lets say a tank dies via GA and a mage via AMF, leaving only the enchanters to stare each other to dead on the sidelines.

QBJohnnywas March 2 2007 6:14 PM EST

You have to cap it somewhere Nov, otherwise fights would go on forever. At lower levels especially. If you put a big wall on a very low level team as it stands you get stalemate. But take away the cap and you get infinite rounds....

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 2 2007 6:18 PM EST

ending a fight when no one is doing damage doesn't seem hard to do...

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 6:18 PM EST

Can we derail the thread after the round count gets addressed?

QBJohnnywas March 2 2007 6:19 PM EST

The forge dwarf could get a job as referee?

[T]Vestax March 2 2007 6:19 PM EST

To also stop people from mere attrition. It prevents people from building strats that eventually win by getting luck.

[T]Vestax March 2 2007 6:20 PM EST

*from winning from

QBsutekh137 March 2 2007 6:20 PM EST

Checks could be put into place, and if no damage being done, THEN stop. Of course, loops could still occur with VA/GA, I suppose, but number of rounds is just a number. Nothing else about the battles is stored, and I doubt any integer data types are being pushed to the limit for storage or anything... Why not let it go 100 rounds?

QBRanger March 2 2007 6:29 PM EST

Question:

I notice End of Days is not using a melee weapon, only a bow and a HoC.

But when I fight him, I see he is firing his elb in the very first melee round when I have to switch weapons. Is this right?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 2 2007 6:31 PM EST

does he fire in the second round of melee?

QBRanger March 2 2007 6:32 PM EST

No, but I thought he fires every other round, starting round 2 of melee. Not in round 1 of melee.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 2 2007 6:35 PM EST

Why? he doesn't have to switch weapons, just reload. Makes perfect sense as is.

[T]Vestax March 2 2007 6:43 PM EST

Let me see if I can sum up everything more neatly. I might have the ranged damage penalty incorrect. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Before Changes (With HoC)
Round 1 Range 3 Evasion x 3.00 80% Damage Two Attacks Ranged Weapons, MM, and FB Begin
Round 2 Range 2 Evasion x 2.33 90% Damage One Attack
Round 3 Range 1 Evasion x 1.67 100% Damage One Attack
Round 4 Melee Evasion x 1.00 100% Damage One Attack All other combat begins
After Changes (With HoC)
Round 1 Range 4 Evasion x 3.67 80% Damage One Attack Ranged Weapons, MM, and FB Begin
Round 2 Range 3 Evasion x 3.00 90% Damage One Attack
Round 3 Range 2 Evasion x 2.33 100% Damage One Attack
Round 4 Range 1 Evasion x 1.67 100% Damage One Attack CoC and Decay begin
Round 5 Melee Evasion x 1.00 100% Damage One Attack All other combat begins
Without HoC
Round 1 Range 3 Evasion x 3.00 80% Damage One Attacks Ranged Weapons, MM, and FB Begin
Round 2 Range 2 Evasion x 2.33 90% Damage One Attack
Round 3 Range 1 Evasion x 1.67 100% Damage One Attack
Round 4 Melee Evasion x 1.00 100% Damage One Attack All other combat begins

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 6:48 PM EST

the last round of rangted has always been at a range of "2", with associated penalties and the like.

[T]Vestax March 2 2007 6:50 PM EST

Your right, for right now just add 1 to all of the ranged numbers.

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 6:51 PM EST

So... about that total round count and the numbe rof melee rounds that the non-Hoc team gets when fighting an HoC team....

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 6:51 PM EST

"Your right, for right now just add 1 to all of the ranged numbers."

And change the damage percentages

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 2 2007 6:52 PM EST

"Why? he doesn't have to switch weapons, just reload. Makes perfect sense as is."

The Melee penalty to attack Rate.

Bows only attack every other round in Melee, this has always been;

Round 1: No attack
Rouns 2: Attack
Round 3: No attack

And so on.

It also fits in with a Ranged user changing to a melee wepaon, where both wouldn't attack on Round 1 Melee.

Now, a pure Bow user gets and extra rounds attack over a guy switching to Melee.

[T]Vestax March 2 2007 6:54 PM EST

I never thought of the damage in terms of "range 2" or "range 3". If I'm not mistaken, the damages themselves are still correct. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody seems to have recorded the ranged penalties into the wiki.

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 7:02 PM EST

With the ranged damage changes in September, penalties were increased for rounds 1 and 2 and left unchanged for round 3. If a penalty is left unchanged, mustn't it exist to begin with? Check the September changelog.

QBRanger March 2 2007 7:13 PM EST

GL understands my point completely.

QBRanger March 2 2007 7:17 PM EST

'Short bows may even do more damage but I didn't actually do the math. '

C'Mon Jon, don't take the easy way out. All those Short Bow users are on their feet waiting to see how much more damage they will do.

[T]Vestax March 2 2007 7:17 PM EST

Nothing in those changes talk about damage penalties. However, they do talk about chance to hit penalties, which is the quote you are referring to.

th00p March 2 2007 7:18 PM EST

IMO, Jon probably forgot to restart the melee firing at the second ranged round, and probably has it still set at round 5 (used to be the second ranged round, now is 1st with HoC). The question is, now CB will have to determine whether or not either person is wearing a HoC or not to determine in which round the ranged weapons should start firing in melee, be it round 5 or 6.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 2 2007 7:22 PM EST

Just set it to miss the round that melee users lose when changing wepaons, and every other round after that. ;)

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 7:37 PM EST

"Nothing in those changes talk about damage penalties. However, they do talk about chance to hit penalties, which is the quote you are referring to. "

Oh.. nevermind, then.

QBJohnnywas March 2 2007 7:43 PM EST

Hmm. How would a CoC archer wearing a HoC work now?

Would they get both HoC extra rounds?

QBRanger March 2 2007 7:44 PM EST

Maybe the Helm of Clearsight's name should be changed to something like Helm of the Eagle Eye.

Signifying that your attacking from further away than normal.

Explaining to most people the extra attack of Ranged 5.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 2 2007 7:45 PM EST

Good point Johnny! I'll test and let you know! ;)

QBRanger March 2 2007 7:46 PM EST

CoC archer would like start casting CoC in Ranged 2 of missile as DD spells trump weapons, both missile and ranged.

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 7:47 PM EST

DD ranged penalties are not in line with the original post. This is most visible with AMF backlash.

In round 1, AMF backlash is 70%, round 2 it is 80%, round 3 it is 90%, and round 4, it is 100%. Now entering melee, the AMF backlash is the same as it was for the last round of ranged -- 100%.


(also, the round counting is off....)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 2 2007 7:47 PM EST

As PM said.

5: Ranged Weapon
4: Ranged Weapon
3: Ranged Weapon
2: CoC

;)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 2 2007 7:49 PM EST

DD Penalty sohuld be;

5: -30%
4: -20%
3: -10%
2: -10%

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 7:51 PM EST

should, isn't

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 2 2007 7:52 PM EST

This is a buff, with the drawback of being killed in the first round, losign an attack. The old HoC DD penatlies were;

4: -30% & -30%
3: -20%
2: -10%

AdminNightStrike March 2 2007 7:53 PM EST

That's not much of a drawback, since the only people that can kill you in round 1 are other HoC users (ignoring anyone with a GA or AMF that's a few billion levels.

Daz March 2 2007 7:55 PM EST

I can't really say I noticed the ELB nerf when i went through my fights this morning, so thats not too bad.

Sorry to be a little bit off topic, but it's related to the HoC. Can I still buy a HoC for $6USD from Jon? I wanted to buy one at the time, but couldn't get the cash into my PayPal and was paying of a 5 mill debt.

QBsutekh137 March 2 2007 8:01 PM EST

If it is still the supporter item, you should be able to still buy it...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 2 2007 8:19 PM EST

Actually, the DD penalties could be;

5: -30%
4: -20%
3: -10%
2: 0

As technically for DD the first round of melee (with a zero penalty) is the "one round later".

It's easy to test with AMF backlash, but would you mind letting us know what penalty Ranged 2 should have for FB/CoC Jon, and not what it might have atm? :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 2 2007 8:20 PM EST

Erm, that should be FB/MM above. ;)

[RX3]Cotillion March 2 2007 10:22 PM EST

Did someone say they are using their ranged weapon in Melee?...I've only gotten to the 1st round of melee and I'm shooting with my ELB, even after 4 rounds of ranged. Am I just stupid, is there a bug, or what...? Someone please explain for someone as dense as me. Thanks in advance. -.-

Admin{CB1}Slayer333 March 2 2007 10:25 PM EST

You have no melee weapon equipped, so yeah, you should be using your bow in melee.

[RX3]Cotillion March 2 2007 10:31 PM EST

Has it always been like that or is it changed? I mean what's the whole point of using a melee weapon if you fire your ranged weapon every other round and do x4 damage with it?

Daz March 2 2007 11:46 PM EST

Firing a ranged weapon in melee reduces your dex by about 80% or so.

[RX3]Cotillion March 3 2007 12:41 AM EST

Oh...So i see. Thanks for the info.

AdminNightStrike March 3 2007 12:49 AM EST

Daz: It doesn't reduce your DX. This is from the Sep change:

"Penalties to ranged weapons used during melee combat have been adjusted. Slings have 80% penalty; xbows have 40% penalty. Bows are unchanged at 60% penalty."

It cuts your to-hit.

[RX3]Cotillion March 3 2007 12:58 AM EST

Why didn't anyone ever mention anything about being able to use Ranged weapons in melee? ... -.-

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 3 2007 2:36 AM EST

it also had/has a huge dex penalty

Daz March 3 2007 8:06 AM EST

Fighting Conundrum takes 9 rounds.

With ELS equipped, my DEX ended up at; 178,267

Without, my DEX ended up at; 71,306

Which is 60 percent penalty, shown as my DEX on the fight page.

AdminShade March 3 2007 8:37 AM EST

So are there 4 ranged rounds now?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] March 3 2007 8:42 AM EST

"So are there 4 ranged rounds now?"

Only for those that have an HoC

QBOddBird March 3 2007 8:42 AM EST

Shade: If either player has a HoC equipped, yes.

Shelingar March 4 2007 12:09 AM EST

It was probably a change that was needed.

The unintended side effect though is a significant drop in scores overall if my fight-list is anything to go by. Fighting the same people (except 2 that went from occasional losses to unsustainable) the average score seems to have dropped 2-300K. (80-90% average to 50-60% challenge bonuses).

Most of those aren't archery people, but I assume the higher scores had a trickle down effect.

AdminShade March 4 2007 5:12 PM EST

Ahh yes, get it now.

AdminNightStrike March 13 2007 2:55 AM EDT

Regarding the ELB damage nerf....

Sting skewered Ember with Tennis ELBow [2577803]
Sting skewered Ember with Tennis ELBow [2239804]
Sting skewered Ember with Tennis ELBow [1872891]
Sting struck deep into Ember with Tennis ELBow [2261500]
Sting struck deep into Ember with Tennis ELBow [2061233]

That's one round.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 13 2007 4:03 AM EDT

O_O

Nearly 7 Million damage!

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 13 2007 4:03 AM EDT

*cough* 11 actually... ;)

Brakke Bres [Ow man] March 13 2007 7:12 AM EDT

you should hear them cry if there truly was an elb nerf which cut these damages in half.

Mikel March 13 2007 8:28 AM EDT

I'll tell you just like I told Pops, don't half way do it. Tell everyone that I was wearing my ToA hitting a 20 dex minion and had Seekers on that have pumped x. So that is not normal damage from me.

Mikel March 13 2007 8:41 AM EDT

Also, do you know how much damage I do vs Freed's wall?

Relic March 13 2007 9:53 AM EDT

No idea how much you do against freed, but against my single minion character with a 2.2 mil ToE, you hit me for 2 to 2.7 mil per hit, and I have 102 effective Evasion.

QBRanger March 13 2007 10:09 AM EDT

Basically,
With the exception of a few minions, archery has become a plus/minus type of damage.

Plus = You hit and kill that minion.
Minus = You miss and that minion survives.

But, I am typing about the happenings near the top MPR's and my experience only with the new improved ELB.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 13 2007 10:19 AM EDT

Use evasion and dbs or don't complain. This is NW for NW and XP for XP people, nothing unbalanced or unfair about it.

QBJohnnywas March 13 2007 10:34 AM EDT

People tend to forget that against a lot of teams this kind of damage is completely wasted against enchanters for the most part. Evasion plays a huge part in negating an archer; and even with the extra round in play, if an archer team makes it through to melee they'll probably lose,because they've focused all their NW in ranged.

Single minions are always vulnerable to large damage be it mage damage or tank. You could reduce Mikel's damage by half and he'd probably still be able to take on single minions in one or two rounds. Most people don't have the HP trained to survive more than one or two hits of most types of damage at higher levels.

Relic March 13 2007 10:52 AM EDT

I do use Evasion and +25 EB's. If I were to get some HUGE db's so as to cause Mikel to miss, my PR would get blown way out of proportion. While the WA allows him to equip a massive weapon with little to no PR repercussions.

Relic March 13 2007 11:10 AM EDT

btw Novice...

Here is a battle against Mikel with +201 DB's from PM.

It's still a draw, and look at the damage difference! That is a 3.5+ mil FB, highest in the game by far...

Gebil's Fireball hit Sting [1359338]
Gebil cries "You're on fire!!"
R.I.P. Gebil

Sting skewered Gebil with Tennis ELBow [2849860]
Sting cries "I'll always be King of Pain!"
R.I.P. Sting

QBsutekh137 March 13 2007 11:12 AM EDT

I'm more with Glory on this one... Yes, novice, it is NW for NW and XP for XP... I don't have a problem with the balance, I have a problem with the all-or-nothing aspect of it. Even if I DO have large DBs and a largish Evasion, as soon as the archer gets one arrow on me, I am deader than saddle shoes. Deader than A-line flares with pockets in the knees.

Why does it have to be all or nothing? I have _never_ liked the dexterity/pth/Evasion game. It's simply too binary for a game that has massive randomness factors built into it everywhere else. There is nothing random about going from an enemy totally missing to an enemy landing a 3 million point blow. There needs to be a continuum there. And it works both ways... The all-on or all-off is just as frustrating for the archer as it is for the target. When the archers are missing, the targets dance with glee. When the archers start landing blows, the archers dance. I don't like that the dancing is such a step-wise function.

A continuum can be had by allowing the archer to hit more, but for lesser damage (a LOT less). If he can land 2-3 arrows on me, he might get me. If he can only land 1 arrow, I live to see another round.

The fact that these massive weapons hide power in the WA (as Glory points out) just adds insult to injury.

QBRanger March 13 2007 11:18 AM EDT

Glory,

So with the 201 DBs AND an evasion of about 100 effective Mikel still hits you in the first round of missile? When evasion has max bonuses?

Miandrital March 13 2007 11:24 AM EDT

Why has Mikel become the standard for all elbow users? He has the second largest elbow in the game! Of course he is going to do wicked damage, just like everything else in cb, once taken to the extremes, balance is going to be much harder to find.
Since the vast majority of cb-players dont use USD to augment their NW, further nerfing of elbows/ranged damage would only hurt those people, since USD spenders can just drop some more money into their weapons.

Phrede March 13 2007 11:25 AM EDT

I also cannot beat Glory with those boots :) - I agree it is an all or nothing situation.

Relic March 13 2007 11:26 AM EDT

My effective Evasion level dropped to 94 from 102 with the +201 DB instead of +25 EB. My PR increased almost 300k from the DB.

Relic March 13 2007 11:28 AM EDT

Gebil's Fireball hit Time [50450], Ever I [12801], Saw Your [28818], Face [32635]
Saw Your absorbs damage [50450]
Saw Your absorbs damage [12801]
Saw Your absorbs damage [32635]

Time missed Gebil

Gebil's Fireball hit Time [52941], Ever I [22135], Saw Your [53935], Face [39379]
Saw Your absorbs damage [52941]
Saw Your absorbs damage [22135]
Saw Your absorbs damage [39379]

Time struck deep into Gebil with Platypus Phlegm [2828080]
Time cries "Is on My Side - yes it is!"
R.I.P. Gebil

QBRanger March 13 2007 11:32 AM EDT

Please Miandrital,

Show us how much damage you do with your ELB vs different minions.

IE vs TOE characters, low AC, high AC, etc..

Also please post your elb stats and strength.

I only know what I see with the recent changes at the level I fight. I would indeed like to see how the damage is at the lower MPR levels.

Relic March 13 2007 11:52 AM EDT

That ToE of Freed's really reduces my damage, but mine does really nothing to stop his massive blows. Is there possibly a bug with ToE reduction of DD vs. physical damage?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 13 2007 11:53 AM EDT

I'd assume that your spread fire doesn't overwhelm his ToE, unlike his un reduced by spreading damage, which is enough to overwhelm your ToE.

Relic March 13 2007 11:54 AM EDT

Good point GL.

QBRanger March 13 2007 11:56 AM EDT

No Glory,

The TOE is working just fine.

Freed does so much damage he basically overwhelms and breaks your TOE. Same thing happens to me with my enchanters when he uses a TOA.

However your FB gets broken into 4 parts, and each part is then subject to AC and TOE reduction. So your FB "parts" are all small enough to get reduced a lot by his TOE, basically the max reduction-75%.

I am sure the first like 300k or so of his elb is being reduced, however you do not even notice it, since the other 2M or so is taken at full strength.

AdminNightStrike March 13 2007 1:17 PM EDT

Miandrital -- because his weapon comes at no cost of PR.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] March 13 2007 3:25 PM EDT

201 dbs huh, considering Mikel has over +300 including his ToA don't you think expecting them to solve the problem is a little silly?

QBsutekh137 March 13 2007 3:28 PM EDT

Depends on the round, doesn't it? Mikel never hits me in the first round with this AoF I have rented...

QBRanger March 13 2007 3:39 PM EDT

Yes, quite silly thinking a set of +201 DB's could make a non Super AC tank live through missile rounds.

Why? Because if I did not have the super AC, ONE HIT from Freed's or Mikel's ELB will kill my 2.4 million HP tank. Not one hit a round, I mean ONE HIT period.

If i get my AC to 200 or so, even with a TOE I get killed in ONE HIT. Again for those who cannot put their mind around it--ONE FREAKING HIT!!!

Relic March 13 2007 4:05 PM EDT

"201 dbs huh, considering Mikel has over +300 including his ToA don't you think expecting them to solve the problem is a little silly?"

+201 DB AND 94 Evasion, so, yes I would expect to be virtually un-hittable by pretty much any bow in the first ranged round. You sure are being silly to be so contemptuous Novice. =)

QBRanger March 13 2007 4:28 PM EDT

Glory,

You forget that DB's and evasion to not add up linearly. It seems that once you get to a certain level of both, they only add a pittance to each other.

Therefore Novice's bright idea of DB's and evasion is moot as only 1 of the 2 really help at the higher levels.

AdminNightStrike March 13 2007 4:46 PM EDT

An Evasion of 94 is 673000. Tripled in round one makes it 2019000, which is somewhere between 148 at 1938747 and 170 at 2685000. Either way, it's very small, and the curve gets worse.

The thing of it is, changing the Evasion curve is not really the answer here (and I say that not just because of all the work I spent so far on plotting it.)

QBsutekh137 March 13 2007 5:03 PM EDT

OK, but then why does Mikel never hit me in the first round...never. What round is he hitting you, Glory?

My effective Evasion is effect 148, overall Evasion is nearing level 2 million.

I will be watching more closely, but as far as I can tell, Mikel never hits in my round one, and hasn't since I rented this AoF. So something is weird here if Glory is getting pegged first round.

QBsutekh137 March 13 2007 5:20 PM EDT

OK, just did 7 battles against King of Pain. Mikel has seekers equipped on Tennis Elbow. My Evasion is: Evasion: 1,951,456/1,235,099 (148).

He shot at me 7 times and hit me once. Wish I had more BA, because I really do think his rate of hitting me is actually less than 1/7th.

Anyway, I think Glory is getting hit more maybe because of the pure dexterity side of the coin. Evasion provides defensive dexterity, and Jonathan confirmed a while back that the dexterity also gets multiplied by the ranged factors (at least I think he found that to be the case). So, I have a pretty massive dexterity in Round One (with clear-sight). I think I pretty much eliminate all dexterity-based hits.

His remaining rare hits come from all the pth from the bow, arrows, archery, and ToA in a combination I can't even keep up with any more.

Glory, what is your Evasion level (not effect)? I am betting it isn't even half of what mine is if you are down around an effect of 100. So, Mikel's chance of hitting you is a combination of pth and even a dexterity-based squeaker here and there. Because it takes a LOT of dexterity to completely eliminate all chance of someone hitting you (what do folks say, something like 165%?)

I'm still curious about the actual number of time Mikel hits you in that first round...

Relic March 13 2007 5:27 PM EDT

Evasion: 824,536/535,413 (102), that is with my EB, I only had (94) with PM's DB. He hits me in the first HoC ranged round every time. Maybe it is because he has defensive seekers equipped when I attack him, but he would have to say what happens when he attacks me without them.

QBsutekh137 March 13 2007 5:37 PM EDT

Hm, then it must be the defensive dexterity. I have 2.5x your dexterity... So not only do I eliminate his hits due to pth, I eliminate the ones due to dexterity too...

I would sure expect him to miss you once in a while though in that first round!

Mikel March 13 2007 6:48 PM EDT

I do miss Glory in round 1 without the ToA on.

ScY March 16 2007 11:25 PM EDT

Has anyone done a test with the CoC archer?

which would fire, the archer twice, or the CoC in the last round

with the HoC equipped?

Kong Ming March 17 2007 12:11 AM EDT

I think I read somewhere that DD will always over rule physical attacks. So with a HoC equipped CoC archer, the last ranged round would be CoC attack.

ScY March 17 2007 12:26 AM EDT

but has anyone tested it?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] March 17 2007 12:40 AM EDT

Yes. About post numer 50. ;)
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0022lA">Ranged, Clearsight changes</a>