NUB: Good or Bad? (in General)
March 16 2007 5:02 PM EDT
I've just got to say this, because it's been bothering me... I unfortunately won't have the backup that I would usually have while making this point, because DD is on Vacation for a week... He and I have had many discussions on this idea, and I'm sure he'd have something good to throw in, but alas, he's not around... Anyway...
I don't know if anyone else is feeling the way that I feel, but here's what I have to say.
I don't know much about IP addresses or internet blar-de-blar but I can't help but have this nagging feeling that most of the people who are joining CB recently are actually veterans of the game... (I'm not going to get into naming said people, this post is not to get people in trouble...) I don't have any proof of this and because of my lack of computer knowledge I don't think I have a shot at gaining any proof. But again, I don't really care to prove it, as that's not my job.
But there are certain things that bother me... You know what? I'll just come out with it...
There is a person on CB that came on about a month ago, then proceeded to spend hundreds of dollars on CB... while this is not against the rules of course, it does raise some flags... for the first little while, this person asked insane amounts of questions, (by my feeling) to make it obvious that he/she didn't know jack about CB... Then he/she finally got their strat down and then bought massive amounts of CB2$ and gear... Case 1.
Case 2... There have been quite a few NUB's lately who apparently know way more about CB2 than I do, although I've played about 5 hours a day and read nearly every single post and wiki entry for about 1 1/2 years... Some started their characters around the time I made my NCB, and some started after, some well after... and even though I play quite a bit, most of them have surpassed me in MPR... I'm not saying this isn't possible for a true NUB, but my point is that MOST of the NUBs lately are tearing through the game... the only way to do that is to play CB ALOT... (which admittedly, I have done since day 1 on CB2... so I'm not saying that others don't as well...) So basically my point is that there are many NUBs that have solid strats and are making the most of their NUB, which is what is raising another flag for me...
I'm not saying that every single NUB is a multi or previously banned player, I'm just saying that there are alot of reasons that I think that many or at least some are... To come on a game that you've never played before, and be as good as someone that has played for over a year, and immediately spending massive amounts of USD to either get to the top (or to get BACK to the top, as the case may be) just seems strange to me...
So basically, as to the name of the post, my feeling is that NUB is a huge reason to cheat... you can spend alot of USD on a NUB and make him powerful fast, (just like NCB) but unlike NCB you can actually, easily, make that USD back...
I understand that NUB was designed to help new players get boost so that they could theoretically catch up to the "higher ups", but I think that it's just too tempting for people to want to try it again...
A side note... if I made my characters strong, and had mad gear, I could sell it all... sell my characters... then make a NUB without fear of being banned because there is nothing of worth on my original character... So I can NUB it up, making more money on top of what I made, and if I don't get caught, all is well... but if I do get caught, all the NEW money that I made will be confiscated (unless I've sold it already) and my old (and now useless) account will be deleted or banned or whatever the case may be... But since I'm fairly smart, I could do a little research and figure out a way to change my IP's so as not to raise any eyebrows as I start yet another NUB and make a bunch of cash.... I could even ask a whole bunch of newbish questions to make it look like I'm truly a newb...
So... I vote that NUB is bad... and not because "I can't make a NUB anymore" or "There are people doing better than I am that I feel shouldn't be..." these are not the reasons I wrote this, just points I was using to show my thought processes... The reason I wrote this is that I love CB2... I really do... It's a truly fun, challenging, and addictive game that keeps my attention for hours, even if I'm not in the BA... And recently all these bannings, multis, etc. have been making me weary and sad... weary that Jon will get sick of cheaters and shut us down... and sad that I've spent real USD (which I am in amazingly short supply of) on fake items in a fake world that unfortunately holds my interest far more easily than the real world, and it could disappear in an instant, with no explanation even needed by the creator, because we aren't paying for his service, we are merely paying for things to play with on the service that he provides... I mean, I love CB2 enough to spend more USD than I should on it, but all of this comes with the thought in the back of my mind that I could feasibly get some of it back by selling these fake items to people who also like fake items...
Anyway, I think I've gotten way off track... Basically, all of it boils down to this... NUB = Help for Newbs... NUB also = Help for Cheaters...
I'm not a newb, so NUB doesn't affect me... so a case can be made that I shouldn't worry about NUB... but I'm worried that it is such an incentive to cheat that more and more people are cheating... and that causes instability in the game, and most likely makes the creator miffed. I don't want either of those things, as I want CB2 to thrive and stay around...
I know I haven't made an uber-strong arguement why NUB should be removed or changed but every time I go on the forums I am overwhelmed by the nagging suspicion that some of these folks are lying through their teeth... I could be wrong... Hopefully I am...
I understand what you mean Moosh. I have seen "new players" that start a game and when looking at their strats they seem to know immediately what they're doing. Just to let you know that you're not the only one with the paranoia. :)
Now, as far as NUB goes, I can't really say since I am one of the few people who never got to experience it since I was here when cb2 first opened and the NUB wasn't in place yet. But I've heard stories, for example, "I make over $1k per fight".
So it may be a little biased, but from my experience of playing, I'll agree with you and also say NUB is bad. From what I've seen, you don't really need the "bonus money" to catch up to the top, in fact NCB is enough (for me anyways). Perhaps NCB can just entirely replace the NUB?
March 16 2007 5:16 PM EDT
I agree. Most of the mentees I get (that talk, at least) say they already played CB, and that they don't really help. That being said, I see what you mean about the overcurious and also the USD crazy NUBs. Now, I'm not saying that I know anyone that did this, but it seems that there have been instances in the past where this has happened, including recently with Mantra admitting he was a multi so he could use his new NUB with the RoE. Questions have also arisen about other questionable NUBs in the past who bought USD, got to the top, sold their char and stuff, and then quit basically for personal gain.
Now, how to true NUBs feel about catching up to the veterans who have been playing for over 2 years straight on the same character? They probably love it. Seeing as no other game I know of has anything like this, it's most likely a diamond in the rough kind of feature. Since people still flock to other games that don't have this, it obviously isn't a huge part of the reason why people stay around. It's my honest belief that 99.9% of true NUBs won't realize how powerful a bonus they have until it's too late (ex. me). The pros and cons for noobs are easy to see, they get more money and can catch up to the leaders. But at the same time, veterans take advantage of this more easily because they already know strategy and how to exploit this bonus to the fullest.
Is it time for Jon to nerf the NUB? Maybe. I wouldn't mind making NUB come within 70% of the MPR of the top character instead of the 95% or whatever it is now, but that still probably won't do anything to change the veterans who decide to take the relatively small risk of starting again to replace themselves higher up in the CB ladder.
Will Jon nerf the NUB? No. At least, not unless someone holds him at gun point, IMO. The way things are running, with the strict admins we have now, we catch most of the attempted multis, even the vets.
However, using strictly IP and transfers to catch them isn't enough, and there isn't much else to do to track them. That leaves the only option as to reduce or take away the incentive of trying to cheat in the first place.
*Lukey flames th00ps post!*
March 16 2007 5:30 PM EDT
To put your point in a simpler manner. The fundamental problem, as far as I read you correctly, is that a new account is not the equivalent of an old account. Whenever you have an inequality like this, temptation always leads the player to the account with the greatest advantage.
The problem won't be solved until both accounts are either equal, or until the older account is of a greater advantage then the newer account.
This logical thinking leads us to ask the question? What would result from making the NCB the equivalent of the NUB?
I might suggest that the money bonus be removed from the NUB. At the same time the inflated cost of buying BA could then be removed from both the NCB and the NUB. XP in that respect would always be available to all players with the same ease. CB cash would be the defining factor, and an advantage that is most easily had by older players, or those players willing to make a real life sacrifice for an in-game advantage.
March 16 2007 5:35 PM EDT
Totally agree Moosh. How about the NUB coming with some sort of price... the price of having their transfers limited. New players use auction systems only. Oh Yes!
March 16 2007 6:05 PM EDT
My thoughts from the very start of the NUB experience.
We already have cases in point about people making upwards of 6 NUB characters to sell out and make cash.
Those smart enough not to get caught keep playing. Or they "confess" and get to stay.
i dont see why they cant just get normal money rewards and have the regular price per BA, would be even to what the top gets right now, and what we had started out cb2. NCB i agree with totally though, the regular money with high price per BA.
to add, I have the sneaking suspicion Monty is roaming these parts in some form or another, =P
March 16 2007 6:20 PM EDT
smallpau1 suggests a NUB with no cash rewards, but normal BA buy cost, with the NCB as is. This something I contemplated, however, it falls prey to the fundamental issue of a new account being "better" then an older account.
Either we vote to live with temptation as a part of everyday CB life, or we should eliminate the benefit of it completely. A half-way attempt is not recommended.
March 16 2007 6:53 PM EDT
This thread alone does this no justice: see chat log here
for a long-winded 'discussion' on the topic. Be prepared to read for a good while though.
Not knowing how good I had it with nub? Yes thats me it was a real shock the way play slowed after NUB down. I think it should be changed so you don't notice that its gone. You know taper it off . That way it wouldn't feel like you were being ripped some how.
has been suggested before
maybe for NUB's, do something like put this at the top of their screen for the first 10k fights:
It is against the rules to create another account! You will be banned if you use another!
Hmm, dont know if this is working, the above sentence should be size 24 font, but its not showing it when i goto the "confirm" screen.
March 16 2007 7:19 PM EDT
hey if your looking for that guy i think his name was fire dragon. Also a good idea is to make people confirm their email adress before playing then you could tell if they have the same email adress.
March 16 2007 7:23 PM EDT
I couldn't agree with the theme of this thread more.
I remember when I first started it took me a month to get familiar enough with the game to make a decent strat. By the time I had a great understanding of the game I had a month left on my NUB, so most of it was spent learning the game.
I don't think I am slow to learn, it's just CB does have quite a bit to think about. When I see NUB players that have been around for a month with 300k mpr, named items and a high NW it definetly bothers me. It has been really tempting to say I have a brother that wants to play and just start a NUB over. Hard to get caught, and it was a hard choice to not do it.
March 16 2007 7:44 PM EDT
Verifying email addresses isn't going to stem the problem at all, as it's free to get a new email account everywhere... you can even have 60 email addresses with the same provider if you had the time to make them all...
March 16 2007 8:08 PM EDT
Ok... a bit of discussion has followed this post... I just want to state that the purpose of this post was not to call anyone out, I was just using examples as to why I was thinking this way... Sorry to offend anyone, honestly...
Also, I've gotten a bunch of CM's and PM's asking me to name "Case 1"... I'm not going to... You all know who I'm talking about... I know you know because every single person who asked me said, "is it so and so?" But so and so is the same person in every CM or PM I get... So, just go with your instinct and don't bother asking me.
Trust your admins...they are your only hope.
There are more clues to multies than just ip.
March 16 2007 9:01 PM EDT
I understand that there are more ways to check than IPs, that's why I added "internet blar-de-blar..." that covers all the other ways to check, if you aren't familiar with the lingo... :)
I do trust my admins... I just think they are being paid by said multis to let this slide... So wait... I don't trust them...
(except for "case 3" the mysterious bad guy admin whom I shall not name... you know who I mean...)
March 16 2007 9:28 PM EDT
I have, like a lot of people, wondered how easy it would be to 'quit' and come back as a new player with the NUB. But I don't like cheating, I like the challenge of raising chars and money the 'right' way. And, I've invested a lot of time into 'Johnnywas', I'm rather fond of being JW. I've made a lot of friends here along the way and I don't think I'd be able to come back as somebody else and not let some of them know it was me.
And in that scenario lies something else that bothers me: how many of those NUBs that could be returning players have friends here who know they are multis. How many players let it slide, thinking "I'm not the one breaking the rules here so let em do it until they get caught"?
March 16 2007 9:58 PM EDT
It was a complete shock for me when my NUB ended... I hadn't a clue it would make such a big difference. It was DEPRESSING playing after I no longer had it... and yes, $1,000 - $1,500 per were not unusual.
As a NUB it took me at least a month to figure things out - aamof I'm still learning quite a lot and will probably continue (thanks to the wonders of changemonth) to learn more as I play.
It was such a shock when it stopped that I stopped playing regularly for awhile... only coming back occasionally to keep my stuff active.
Personally, I'd like to see the NUB time tied to MPR and to have the bonuses ramped down over the entire length of being a NUB. This would give a slow NUB more time to figure it out while still getting rewarded. A fast NUB would lose their rewards very rapidly and therefor get much less (reverse reward eh? Get more for being bad Hmmm...)
Doesn't it make sense that as you level up you reduce the reward?
At least this way there would be no big shift between being a NUB and a PRO.
And if we still have problems with cheats they should all burn in hell. :-)
How about NUBs with reduced cost of BA rather than increased money rewards? That way, they still have access to all the xp they need to contend for the top, but don't get to make 6 accounts and sell out....
March 16 2007 10:29 PM EDT
My original idea that I forwarded in chat a long time ago and which I think makes even more sense considering the chat followup about case 1 I caught today is that NUB should be started some time after a character is first created. At the time, I proposed a month since the general consensus seems to be that Noobs have no idea what they are doing for a couple of weeks to a month. Then the NUB kicks in for the normal amount of time (adjusted down by a couple of % to allow for the headstart)
The unforeseen bonus of this idea is that anyone coming back as a second-time-around NUB would have to sit around for a month after sign-up before the NUB kicks in.
I definitely agree with CMD when he points out how it's suspicious that many of the NUBs that have been joining lately become so successful in a short period of time. And I can think of one person in particular who definitely seems like they could be the multi for a banned player.
Yukk: that is a _damn_ good idea.
Anyone looking at the history graph of my two NUB chars (Atrix Nemoir and Phiqu) will notice that other than the last 2 weeks on Atrix, I completely wasted my NUB. Heck, the fact that I started a new char (AN) rather than just retraining Phiqu at the time shows I had no idea.
The first month or two for me was just a huge learning curve; reading everything I could, retraining every time I realised that my strat had a major problem, etc etc. Even with help from people like Gun (who loaned me an RoE for a week - during which I doubt I fought more than a thousand battles <sniffle> - and gave me good strategy advice) the truth is that the only way I could learn was from trying and seeing.
So, absolutely, I think making the NUB come into effect a month after account creation would be an awesome idea.
Of course, this has nothing to do with the original topic, but yeah, just thought I would say "great idea, yukk" ;-)
March 16 2007 11:39 PM EDT
I'm a NUB (noob) and I think cheaters at any game are ridiculous. It took me awhile to figure out a basic strat and then in the second and third weeks I retrained to polish it into something workable (at least I'm happy with it so far).
I won't use USD to purchase any equipment in this game because I feel I would be cheating myself in the long run. It bothers me to see so many others near my PR that have so many pieces of nice equipment that I am sure they purchased via USD. One of the things that bothers me about this game is the fact that equipment matters more than character experience and strats.You don't really need a great strat to get going if you have uber equipment.
But as far as strats, this game isn't all that difficult and someone saying I'd like to have a team like this and being succesful wouldn't surprise me at all. I've been playing around with computers since the commodore 64 so I catch on to most games rather quickly.
"You don't really need a great strat to get going if you have uber equipment."
You don't really need uber equipment if you have a great strat, either. ;) If you specialize, you won't need very much equipment at all.
I wasted my time, too. After creating my account several months after CB2 was created, I didn't play very much for the longest time. I was even around for CB1, although not for very long, and still couldn't be bothered to figure out what I was doing.
I'd have to agree with this thread. It's annoying to see all these NUBs blazing by me, with WAY more money than I'll ever have, and with equipment that'll take me years to get. All because I wasted 4 months because I wasn't interested in the game enough to figure out how to play? That seems a little unfair that 4 months makes such a huge difference.
Do NUBs really need all that bonus cash? No. It's easy enough to make a good strategy without cash, and they can always save up for equipment like the rest of us, I say. In a slightly biased way.
I said this from day one.
The answer I got was "There's no proof/evidence of this sort of thing happening, and until there is, tough,"
March 17 2007 2:08 PM EDT
I presume I'm one of those NUBs you are referring to since I started after you created your NCB and have overtaken you. Let me add that includes a 2 week holiday and what I would call another nearly 2 weeks of less than max as I wasn't a supporter.
Let me be clear from the start though that while I did play CB, I was never interested in the move to CB2 at the time and in fact my CB1 character who I had worked really hard on was left to rot. I didn't even try to sell it or any of the gear I accumulated.
So ... is CB2 different from CB1? You bet. Is it different enough that I can't make use of some of the knowledge I had at the time ... no.
That aside, I was originally intending to make some comments regarding my NUB experiences. One of which is that I personally believe that money in NUB time is a bit generous. While I can't make the same amount any more due to the score compression at higher PR levels, at lower PR, I could make over 1 mil CB2 cash per day, including making money off every BA I bought. (how I wish at times it didn't cost me as much now).
I do understand the reasoning for NUB, but unfortunately I think it unbalances the game more than helps. (and yes I am making use of it since it is here)
I personally liked the CB1 style tournaments as a way for newer players to:
(a) experiment with different strategies
(b) have the possibility of earning good equipment.
(c) In CB1 there were mid range weapons. eg claymore and exec. In CB2 due to the huge cash NUBs make it is simply pointless to buy one. So the "rare" weapons and armour are affordable after a week or 2 of hard work.
(d) providing a way for CB to be competitive and enjoyable by only spending a week here and there.
This last one is a major issue for me. I continue to work heavily (though not as much) on my NUB character mainly because it is a one off. Now I know a lot of people have worked intensively on spending BA for years, but I believe CB has a reduced appeal as it stands now but by not providing different challenges other than the continuous race for the top. I know once my NUB is over I will probably at the very least take a break. I simply can't sustain the level of commitment that the top players here can ... so kudos to them.
So how to fix it while giving the newbs a chance but removing the incentive for older players to "restart"? My opinion only of course:
1. Keep the NCB.
2. Preferably bring back some sort of tourney system with rewards that newer players can use. You can make some tourneys (but not all) only open to players below certain realms if you want to assist newer players specifically.
3. Rescale the score system a bit so that growth can continue at a faster pace until much higher up. At the moment, as a NUB or NCB (and I assume this applies to older normal characters as well) after a certain MPR you seem to hit a wall growth wise. Challenge rewards quickly go from being able to get 100% to 50% or lower. That assumes that the idea is to give people a shot at the top. It would still require a lot of work of course.
Probably have more to say later, but its 2 am.
Giving normal cash rewards and having BA costs standard removes the whole 'trade-off' though, maybe it isn't working as well as it should with buying BA but there would be no incentive to keep an old character if you were to get near enough double experience for literally no extra cost to what you would normally pay.
It's difficult to suggest something that would actually work but to suggest making that huge increase in experience technically free will make things much more frustrating than the current scenario.
March 17 2007 3:37 PM EDT
I think one common problem a lot of people have is that there are people who have multi'd with NUB's for 6 or 7 times, sold out for usd and are still allowed to play.
We need to banish those that abuse the privilege of the NUB. It is a 1 time deal assigned to completely new players to cb2.
As it is now, the NUB is just so much of a good thing that borderline players cannot help but do it repeatedly for the cash it brings in.
For those who care about the progress their characters have made, it is not a real option (starting a NUB). But those that just care about USD, the NUB is a god given gift to steal and cheat.
March 17 2007 3:53 PM EDT
My suggestion would be to get rid of both the NUB and NCB. Make new people put in the time, with a RoE (in time) they can catch up to the top ranks. For new users give an exp bonus for 1 or 2 months at a fixed exp bonus % that tapers off near the end of the 1 or 2 month period. I see way too many players selling millions of cb2 all the time. I play a nominal amount of time and it takes me weeks to even get 1 mil.
March 17 2007 4:07 PM EDT
Ah, the old fashioned way of working at something for a while.
While a novel concept, it is one that does not apply to on-line gaming as people quickly lose interest if they cannot see a large amount of progress in the short amount of time.
March 17 2007 6:07 PM EDT
Solution! Bring back the RoE as supporter item, make it stronger, no more NUB and NCB...
That's not a solution man. It'll encourage people to make multis so they can get an RoE. If you give the same advantage the new players get to old players, doesn't it defeat the whole concept of a new player advantage?
You need to be a supporter to get the item Impulse. Anyways, I think this whole thread needs to knock off it's accusations. If you suspect someone, send the info to an Admin.
Since you can send $6 to Jon for supporter items, everyone can get one. And if they can't, they'll make NUBs (which is why I said it encourages it).
There's really no reason for the "bonus" anyway. One can always just buy the biggest character.
March 17 2007 9:43 PM EDT
If the NUB and it's possiblities of making real money is too tempting then take away that temptation. Reduce the cash rewards.
Or stop buying CB$ for USD. If there is no market for CB$/USD sales then there is no way for the NUB 'cheats' to make money.
Alternatively, we could reset cb monthly. Maybe exclude those that forger....Sounds good to me
Leon, I think that's the single worst idea I've ever heard.
March 17 2007 11:10 PM EDT
Or, as I've often heard and have come to feel is probably not such a bad approach after all, we could just eliminate player-to-player transfers altogether. =)
I don't feel this is right OB. Yes, it would reduce cheating but, I don't know, I like to be able to do whatever I want with what I amass here. It's one of Cb's strong points even, to be able to trade anything with anyone, even beyond the borders of the game...
A good solution, yeah, probably.
The right one? No, I don't think so. Liberty to do what I want with my CB assets surpasses the inconvieniency (badly spelled, surely) of people cheating.
March 18 2007 12:28 AM EDT
I am 100% in favor of doing away with all player-to-player transfers.
However, that might make things a bit tough against the characters that are already super huge in net worth due to USD expenditures. Freed's billion-dollar-man would be quite the envy of all if we had such a lockdown.
Any radical change in transfers would also have to be accompanied by a fairly radical rescale. in my opinion...
I would be fine with that too. 'Course, that's easy for me to say after using USD to buy about 60% of my last three minions... It would be very difficult to make doing away with all transfers a seemingly equitable endeavor.
March 18 2007 12:38 AM EDT
'I am 100% in favor of doing away with all player-to-player transfers. '
Certainly that is one solution.
However one would have to get rid of auctions then, at least player auctions, since people can set a BIN at 1 cb2 for that ELB they sold for USD via PM or CM.
And welcome to mage blender since tanks cannot really compete, especially at the top levels without player to player transactions. While not all at the top buy USD, those keeping up like Failure buy low from other people and then sell high. Your solution would prevent even that.
I suspect in that scenario, strategies would be very generic like yours or NWO, but then buying minions at high MPR's would be next to impossible.
Yes, your is a solution, however, I feel it would neuter the game so much to make it virtually unplayable and would drive a lot of people away from the game.
Right now, playing a tank, buying ammo and all the BA I can, i make only 50k cb2 a day. That is only 1.5M profit a month or only 18M profit a year. Hardly enough to overcome mages DD spells and evasions. Mages, without ammo to buy make a bit more and have it easier.
it appears that two issues are being discussed here. the nub and usd's influence on the game. pm states that doing away with player to player transfers would neuter the game, perhaps those unwilling or unable to invest usd in an online game feel that it is already neutered.
the extreme solution stated above, basically doing away with cb economy is on solution and i would also love a pure game. i do not really like extreme actions though.
if, as some stated above, the monetary rewards of the nub were toned way down, that would also take out much of the usd that is available and thus help on both fronts perhaps. i guess the price of cb money would go up which might limit the runaway net worths we are seeing as well...at least for many.
March 18 2007 12:54 AM EDT
No, auctions would stay, with Central Bank keeping auctions honest.
Also, all one would have to do is make a 24 or 48 hour auction mandatory, and make skewed-price auctions very, very public. Would you really risk paying lots of real USD for a chance at a $1 auction? No, auctions would be fine.
And no transfers would mean no money transfers, mainly, thereby doing away with PayPal cash for CBD.
The rest of your argument comes down to this: A tank team cannot compete without using USD. Buying low and selling high are not the only ways to make money. Rentals, farms, savvy auction use: these give a long-term edge to good players.
My set-up is far from generic. Can you name a single other team that uses MM/FF for offense? And devoted all purchased minions solely to DM and Junction? If you think my setup is generic, then yours is too. Wow, a high AC tank that leeches. Funny, I knew how powerful that was when I saw it last time -- almost 3 years ago (Spid). There's nothing new under the sun, that goes for mages and tanks alike. Building a huge wall or using a large weapon isn't rocket scence any more than training a large DD. I find your "generic" comment offensive, and would hope NWO does too.
Yes, buying minions high up would have to be re-worked (that's why I mentioned it in my post). I think that particular re-working pales in comparison to deciding what to do with the teams that have already amassed great net worth. (I would include Hubbell in that -- though NW does not show, my minions were worth 90 million -- that ain't chicken feed).
March 18 2007 1:17 AM EDT
I am not saying my strategy is new and innovative, but it is a difference then a mage strat.
Without the ability to have player to player transactions and only sell thing through auctions, ones ability to build up a tank is neutered.
How expensive it is now to get a weapon to +100, million on millions. Then add the x factor.
No real way to get a wall minions AC up to 380 or so AND have money left over for weapons.
In the beginnings of CB2, when money was very tight what was the ratio of tanks to mages? In the top 1/3rd, about 1 tank to every 10 mages. Everyone was a mage due to the low NW needed. Without the ability to buy low and sell high, most everyone except for a few would be mage. And if you got that MH or adam, you had no money to upgrade it, even with a forger.
And yes, yours and NWO's strategy is fairly generic mage strategy. Both rely heavy on DM. Both use DD spells that attack in the first missile round. Neither use a wall. By generic I mean strategies that are easily copied due to the low NW. I would not be offended at all by my comment but rather would be honored you do so well with low NW, easily reproduced strategy.
I have praised Poison numerous times for his strategy. It is brilliant, simple and easy to do. Yours is a close 2nd but you need to have a massive minion and small minions to do which, given the current way of getting new minions will not be possible if player to player transactions are eliminated.
In your scenario what about forging? Will loans be still allowed? If they are and you can forge your weapons, how can a tank survive while their weapons are being forged? Perhaps for other items yes, but not main weapons. So, forge your own weapon and lose MPR to those mages whose DD spells are growing each day.
If you eliminate money transfers, the FS forum will essentially be gone. The only way to sell items is via 24-48 hour auctions. How boring.
But, if a massive "resale" is what Jon wants and P to P transactions are gone, so be it. I believe things will be just like they were in the beginning. Mostly mages with a few scattered tanks doing poorly in the ranks.
March 18 2007 6:08 AM EDT
It's more than possible to run tanks on in game fight rewards only. My last team had a x1700 Morg and an x1200 ELB, paid for only by fight rewards. My overall damage from those was pretty much equivalent to the sort of damage NWO puts out. No, I couldn't afford to add armour or other minions at that point, but given a bit of time I could have made that cash. I make on average a million CB$ a week. That's more than enough to build up big weapons. I've got two walls on my current team. Rentals and in game rewards, auctions. A couple of player to player transfers but I could have gotten the things I wanted in auctions.
I just wanted them quickly. There and then.
That's the thing; so many people simply cannot wait to get the things they want. Player to player transfers stopping would level the playing field. No uber teams rising up quickly, your strategies would have to revolve around forward planning as much as what items/spells/skills to use. With the amounts of damage a tank can put out it wouldn't spell the end for tanks.
However, why I like player to player transfers as they are is this: so many players here help out new players by giving them low level items to help get them started, some run competitions and give away big cash prizes or big items. And then there are the forgers and the testers, and the ones who do silly random giveaways to random recipients just because they can..;)
Getting rid of player to player transfers would get rid of so many things that make this game enjoyable for so many, it's an easy answer but it's not the right answer.
@ Johnnywas, do you mean you MADE 1m per week during NUB or you make 1m per week now, out of NUB? I ask this because when I had NUB i was making around 2m-2.3m a week I think. god...it hasn't even been a month, yet seems so long. Oh well, i've got forging to keep me entertained for a bit. :)
March 18 2007 6:31 AM EDT
Never had the NUB. I'm talking about normal rewards that I make.
Oh schnaps lol...So i see... Makes me feel a LITTLE better about losing my NUBbage.
March 18 2007 7:40 AM EDT
A million a week for a non NUB is good results I admit; there are people (PM says he gets about half that amount or less a week) who get less.
I also think there are a lot of people here who started at the start of CB1 who've never had the NUB, who feel a bit...jealous. Certainly, even as a player who doesn't really do the buying and selling thing I would like to see what I could have done with those kind of rewards you're talking about!
March 18 2007 8:37 AM EDT
Do you get challenge bonuses when you fight?
If you do, that explains why you can make enough cash to keep a tank.
At the top where there is no challenge bonus to be had a tank cannot make enough money. I will say at the top, most character will be forced to be a mage. Lower down, a tank would be viable due to the better rewards gotten.
Also, in a game where money is very limited, rentals will be almost non existent as people will only have enough money to get and upgrade what they can use.
It was this was in the beginnings of cb2. There were low level katana's for rent, barely upgraded. Same with all forms of armor.
March 18 2007 9:38 AM EDT
PM, I actually agree with you on this. You can build a tank and as you do get better rewards lower down you can build it up quite nicely until you hit the upper levels. But at the top your rewards do start to drop; and as you say, there won't be a challenge bonus for yourself...
But what that would mean, would be that tanks and mages past a certain point would be reliant on MPR growth; which as we've seen with Sut's character slows as well. There is balance in the way Jon set the game up. And, while I do think USD buying and selling throws that balance off somewhat, so does the oversized cash of the NUB.
I'll also say this; I don't like the presence of USD in the game; but what that means to me ultimately is that I won't use it. Anybody else is, and should be, completely free to do what they want. I may not like it, I may make harsh comments about it, but a player has a freedom to both comment on it, and play the USD game.
And that extends to NUBs. If they want to play and sell their cash let them. They can only sell if people are buying after all.
What we probably need is a single punishment for the abuse of the NUB though; a consistent punishment at that.
March 18 2007 12:02 PM EDT
NO, no monthly reset! that's one of the things that makes cb so awesome is that you can keep going indefinitely! Ever play a game that resets every month? They suck!!
As for the NUB, i had one and found it to be very helpful, granted i wasted about the first month of it. But i was able to get enough $ to get some decent gear and up it to a usable size.
While you guys complain about USD sales there are a few of us that only "buy" cb$ when the new supporter items come out, getting them for other people, or doing supporters and naming items for other people. I can think of about 30 HoC's that wouldn't be in the game if it weren't for player to player transfers. That's all just IMO.
March 18 2007 1:16 PM EDT
Yes, loans and forging and helping out new players/supportership -- these are the details wherein the devil lies, I agree.
But we've brainstormed our way around details of similar devilishness before. *smile*
If the lower NW capability for tanks becomes a problem, then that is easy to counter -- tone down Evasion and DD. That's the beauty of doing away with transfers: balance can then be maintained by game parameters alone. The numbers do all the work, and there are no aberrations to the curve.
It would take some of the oomph out of that game, maybe... That team that pulls all-night BA for a couple weeks to catch that guy who just spend $25 on upgrading a weapon, etc... USD does add spice. But to me, it is the kind of spice like that of too-salty pizza: it seems good and seems essential while you are eating, but in the long run it just makes you thirsty. I have no idea what that means.
im a bit jealous that i never got a nub, and ive still never used a ncb, :P and you speak of people leaving cb and coming back, i know its done cause there is one who bought a high mpr char and wants to buy roe....who is he, i dunno he wont tell.
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