Can melee tanks get some loving? (in General)
June 24 2007 5:28 PM EDT
The generic melee only tank is falling behind the DD casters and the archers.
The mages now have the NS and HOC for more damage potential.
The archers have the new MSB and the HOC along with BGs to do uber amounts of damage.
What has the lowly melee tank gotten? Answer: Nada, nothing, zippo, zilch, zero.
Melee damage is under 20% of that of the elb. Yes, we get more round to attack, however, one has to live through missile to get there. With mages getting an extra attack in missile, that is getting harder and harder.
Even tanks that are not archers are using exbows or axbow, along with a set of BG and a HOC can do decent damage and severely cut your str/dex to nothing.
But what of those tanks that do not wish to lose that first round of melee? Those that wish to do it different, a different choice (and we all know choice is good)? Where is their help?
What if the HOC allowed melee tanks to attack in the last missile round provided they do not have a missile weapon equipped?
Food for thought.
June 24 2007 6:19 PM EDT
"What if the HOC allowed melee tanks to attack in the last missile round provided they do not have a missile weapon equipped? "
I was under the impression that this is how it worked. I was surprised to find otherwise. It let's CoC and Decay strike in last of ranged...why not melee weapons too?
June 24 2007 6:50 PM EDT
Yep. Really the ONLY thing melee has going for it is its slightly better hit chances against evasion and maybe leech. But as we've seen, at high end ToA PTH overcomes the biggest of evasions and leech is just well too easily negated (PL) and useless when you're dead in ranged anyway.
Remove VA and you might get my backing Ranger. ;)
OK, Melee hasn't had anything new for a while, but it's not really needed anything.
New toys for everyone would be good! :D
June 24 2007 8:53 PM EDT
It's a little difficult surviving to round 4 for me.
I have this: Ablative Shield: 2,217,205/1,089,296 (1,108,612)
800k to my 4 minions and I still get slaughtered by Archers doing triple hits of 1 mil damage, I'm not exaggerating here.
Is a wall a must? I mean, its not like my strat is crap, its got GA combined with a lot of HP to reflect heaps of damage, A fair amount of EC and Evasion as well, and I still get slaughtered.
I can't use PL, I can't use a ToE because I chose a different Strat, but its still defensive. All that's left is a High-AC Wall, which would involve me removing one part of my strat that helps against archers anyway.
And you know what, it doesn't matter how big my weapon is, I can't survive to melee to use it, If I could that would be okay, because I've got a good amount of VA and a 46mil NW MH.
June 24 2007 9:45 PM EDT
I am sure you mean round 5 Flamey, as missile is now 4 rounds, not 3.
Also, how do you do vs mages? You should have enough HP and a large enough AMF to protect vs 4 rounds of magic attack before you can even start to attack. But it seems now a melee tank has to have a wall of some sort to have a part of his character intact before attacking.
But then again, I am sure others will say, just use a missile weapon. But I will counter with a quote from a very knowledgeable person: "Choice is good, we like more not less choices".
June 24 2007 9:49 PM EDT
I do well against Mages, their blows aren't hard enough for them to kill me off straight away and my AMF/GA practically eats them.
June 24 2007 9:53 PM EDT
June 24 2007 10:04 PM EDT
You know you love it. ;)
Flamey kills me at 500k MPR below because of AS+AMF+GA =(
June 24 2007 10:15 PM EDT
Well, you've got to consider you have a RoE, while I almost have a max tat.
I was under the impression that Freed still owned TEoD.
Melee tanks need...
Wait for it...
Ponies! There, I said it! I couldn't let a changemonth go by without it, after all...
June 24 2007 10:40 PM EDT
I'll start by questioning a basic assumption in the OP:
What makes you think melee only tanks are supposed to be viable in the first place?
Are you honestly saying all of the things to survive long enough aren't enough? VA, PL, ToE, high AC, TSA -- that's not enough love (and two of those things are essentially tank-only already)?
I give the subject a big "boo hoo". Last time I made a post about things I didn't like, I got ran out of Dodge on a rail (led mainly by you). I'll tell you the same thing you told me both in forums and in PMs when I had issues with DD not being strong enough to get through the large ToEs, etc.:
June 24 2007 10:46 PM EDT
I still believe the solution to all of this is to nerf the ToA.
You guys are going to get SO sick of hearing that from me. =)
June 24 2007 11:43 PM EDT
Sut, are you saying we have to use all of them?
is ToE the only choice? I use VA, can't use PL (because of GA), sorry I don't have 40 mil to blow on a wall set, my RoS boosts my AS a lot and I have a TSA but no natural HP.
June 24 2007 11:50 PM EDT
There is a difference between adapting and not having choices.
This should be obvious.
June 24 2007 11:51 PM EDT
One tip of loving that I can offer to melee tanks that are currently struggling.. try archery? Cash in the big worthless hammer and get a bow.
June 24 2007 11:53 PM EDT
A big ELB and archery is the only for a Tank to go?
June 25 2007 12:12 AM EDT
Well you can decide how many ways there are to go, I will leave that up to you specifically. I still offer the tip that if you are struggling with your melee tank, try archery.
June 25 2007 12:14 AM EDT
is the only way*
Well, its mainly the Archers, I do pretty well against everything else.
I'd be good if melee users weren't penalized a round for using ranged weapons.
In my opinion
1. exactly the same as the "mages don't have enough options" argument
2. strange, to say the least, because you are limiting yourself to melee for your own reasons. why not just buy a xbow/sling then?
3. perhaps jon sought more equality by giving more options to the other classes, and if he added more options for a melee tank it'd be unbalanced.
4. if the answer "get a db' was good enough for mages, then the answer "get VA, PL, ToE, high AC, TSA" should be enough for melee tanks.
In fact, get a db! hahaha :)
"There is a difference between adapting and not having choices.
This should be obvious."
ROFL! Really Ranger.
come on, lists the 'choices' for Mages.
Now list those for Tanks.
I'm sure we all know who has more at the moment. And it ain't Mages...
Oh, and Don't forget the MgS...
June 25 2007 3:18 AM EDT
Based on the top twenty characters 12 of them are melee based tanks. Out of the rest 1 is an archer, 5 are mage teams, the other 2 teams are retired.
So, if you look at that evidence then melee based teams wouldn't appear to need any help. And actually what that suggests is that ranged based tank teams need some love. It also proves fairly conclusively that the predictions of doom and gloom about ranged dominating the game were not justified IMO.
And to reiterate.
*Only* Melee Tanks get to benefit from this powerful ability. Be it from the ED or built in weapon property.
If melee tanks get some lovin', mages better get some too. We have less options than you guys, so I don't see what there is to criticize.
And I agree with OB, ToAs should be weakened.
June 25 2007 5:24 AM EDT
Come to think of it, auto-VA should be moved from MH to UC hehehe. Just give MH auto-haste or something useless for replacement :)
June 25 2007 5:46 AM EDT
"come on, lists the 'choices' for Mages."
Be a MM Mage, be a CoC Mage, be a FB Mage. They all require different strats and there are 3 choices.
So what if we have those choices? Are they really choices or are they must have things, plus the only thing an Archer can't use there is VA, which gets dispelled might easily, and guess what type of teams use DM a lot, yeah, Archers.
"Based on the top twenty characters 12 of them are melee based tanks. Out of the rest 1 is an archer, 5 are mage teams, the other 2 teams are retired."
JW, why does it matter about the top 20, last time I checked a lot had USD injection into the game, or are we furthering the argument that you need USD to be a tank? That would make it a little skewed, and in Jon's own words, he said Mages are supposed to be cheap. Oh, and the top 20? They fight around each other, they don't have to worry about every strat in the game, heaps of them are specifics just to be certain characters.
"2. strange, to say the least, because you are limiting yourself to melee for your own reasons. why not just buy a xbow/sling then?"
Oh, hmm, yes, we all have bottomless pockets, anyone would tell you that if you're a tank you need to focus on one area, whether that be ranged or melee, do you see many tanks with a 50 mil ELB and a 50 mil MH? No, not just that they can't afford it, moreso that if you spent that 100 mil into one of the weapons you'd most likely be better off.
June 25 2007 5:52 AM EDT
I don't think melee weapons should work with HoC in the last round of range. That would make the HoC redundant and essential to all strategies.
June 25 2007 5:54 AM EDT
"I don't think melee weapons should work with HoC in the last round of range. That would make the HoC redundant and essential to all strategies."
June 25 2007 6:03 AM EDT
Flamey, the only reason I use the top twenty for my comparisons was that Ranger is the original poster. I'm going on the assumption that he is basing his original post on his own experiences/fights - which don't go out of the top twenty very much. In that - admittedly limited - area melee tanks are doing much better on the whole than any other strat.
Yes USD has a lot to do with it, but Morgs do a lot less damage than ELBs of a similar size would do. It's obviously not about NW and USD when thats the case - it's about melee based strats being more effective no?
An archer can do uber damage, but a lot of that damage is 'wasted' on enchanters.
I think the reason melee based tanks haven't had any love is that they already had the love:
Morgs, BoNE, BoTh, ToA, TSA, Evasion, Bloodlust, ToE, Tulka's, HoE, VA, Adam, CML, Wall, UC - none of those are new, and some can be used by ranged based tank teams too. But mostly they come into their own over longer battles.
That's a lot of choice....
June 25 2007 6:07 AM EDT
Further proving my point that you need a ToA or a ToE with damage reduction. A lot of them get used my Archers equally as well.
And all that damage from melee weapons don't get wasted on enchanters as well? Takes as long or ever longer if they have been AS boosted.
June 25 2007 6:23 AM EDT
Personally I think it's a given that to last longer than 8 rounds say, you're going to need damage reduction of some sort; AC, ToE, Evasion etc etc. HP simply isn't enough, especially at high levels.
That aside, your team is melee based Flamey, it does pretty well itself, considering it's a comparatively low NW tank team. And no sign of a ToA or ToE. What do you think is missing from your set up? Who do you need to beat to do better?
""come on, lists the 'choices' for Mages."
Be a MM Mage, be a CoC Mage, be a FB Mage. They all require different strats and there are 3 choices."
You really wanna go there? Be a Tulwar Tank, be a VB Tank, be a Morg Tank, be an Exec Tank. All require Different Strats, as much as MM to FB does.. Do you use a 2H and a Shield? Do you use a BTh and any old ED or go for an ELS (or VB) and VA?
Do you go for Natural STR/DEX with +Stat gear to boost it, or opt for heavier AC armour to make you more durable?
Evasion or BL?
"So what if we have those choices? Are they really choices or are they must have things, plus the only thing an Archer can't use there is VA, which gets dispelled might easily, and guess what type of teams use DM a lot, yeah, Archers."
Wait. You want *more* distinction between Ranged Physical attackers and Melee Physical attackers?
How about UC or Weapon for Melee Physical attackers.
Melee Physical is the *only* type of minion in the game that has the choice of NW based damage *or* XP based damage.
June 25 2007 6:51 AM EDT
*grins* ...and we see which of the two wins out in the NW-based melee damage vs. XP-based melee damage, even in the physical arena. =)
Cheeky OB, bringing 'balance' into this discussion! :P
June 25 2007 6:54 AM EDT
"You really wanna go there? Be a Tulwar Tank, be a VB Tank, be a Morg Tank, be an Exec Tank. All require Different Strats, as much as MM to FB does.. Do you use a 2H and a Shield? Do you use a BTh and any old ED or go for an ELS (or VB) and VA? "
That doesn't goto well, thats almost like saying the different levels of your DD spell, they all do the same things, there are just better things, the only viable options are probably the MH and the VB and maybe the BoTH.
Yes, there seems to be a lot of difference between the 3 spells, who's gonna use FB with 4 minions and probably has a wall there too? You'd be better off using MM. CoC goes well with the damage reductions.
"Do you go for Natural STR/DEX with +Stat gear to boost it, or opt for heavier AC armour to make you more durable?"
A mage can be a heavy one, or to go with CoI + AG and a lot of DD and then be backed up by AS/PL/AC/ToE or something of the like.
"Evasion or BL? "
I don't think Evasion is viable for a melee tank, JW showed us full well you can use that with a massive ELB and a ToA. But that's the difference between melee and ranged tanks, the damage, we're not going to do insane amounts of damage, but to not use BL as well, you're not going to be doing a lot of damage.
"How about UC or Weapon for Melee Physical attackers.
Melee Physical is the *only* type of minion in the game that has the choice of NW based damage *or* XP based damage. "
I'm agreeing with you there, to a certain point. There's quite a bit of gear, practically *needed* for an UC tank. I think NS also showed us how UC tanks aren't very practical in another thread as well.
"What do you think is missing from your set up? Who do you need to beat to do better?"
Nothing really is missing from it, I'd have to lose something to gain something else, which could be more beneficial but no one has said anything to me the last time I brought up a strat thread about my character. RD suggested something viable, but I don't think that would change much either.
Basically the things killing me are Evasion and 1 mil triple hits. That's in my way and I've basically got a +103 weapon I believe and I can't hit those evasions. Dudemus' Character mainly with the evasion and I think horseguy's. Gun's character and NewLeviathan's character are the Archers giving me trouble, give Freed a little more MPR while still being quite a bit under mine and he'll be eating me too.
June 25 2007 6:57 AM EDT
"the only viable options are probably the MH and the VB and maybe the BoTH. "
And the BoNE! =)
June 25 2007 6:59 AM EDT
Not to be moody or anything, mainly because I've thought about it before. Can you give me a situation, or better yet, a strat where the Tank uses a BoNE and it would do better than a BoTH or a MH?
June 25 2007 7:00 AM EDT
Yours. The BoNE would overpower your GA more easily and so it would have less effect, and it would kill off the minions more quickly.
June 25 2007 7:02 AM EDT
Are you saying, against my strat?
June 25 2007 7:38 AM EDT
"I don't think Evasion is viable for a melee tank"
Strangely enough thats what most of the top teams are putting on their melee tanks these days :)
June 25 2007 7:53 AM EDT
"Strangely enough thats what most of the top teams are putting on their melee tanks these days :)"
Strangely enough their weapons are abnormally huge :P
June 25 2007 8:03 AM EDT
BL is essentially a lost skill now.
For any tank, it is either archery or evasion. Or UC is you persist in trying something different.
June 25 2007 8:06 AM EDT
Flamey - The Lega is doing pretty well using an Evasion melee tank with only 120 pth on his weapon - not much more than yours. So I wouldn't dismiss Evasion as an option for melee tanks. Certainly it's one of only a few ways of combating the Exbow which I've been told is the reason most of the top use Evasion.
June 25 2007 8:06 AM EDT
I'd rather go BL, because Evasion takes too much XP apart from the damage factor. Not everyone has a ToA to be able to freely spend xp into Evasion.
"That doesn't goto well, thats almost like saying the different levels of your DD spell"
Not at all. That would be like comparing DD levels with wepaon X's...
"they all do the same things, there are just better things, the only viable options are probably the MH and the VB and maybe the BoTH."
And all DD just do damage. ;)
OK, to be less pedantic, you have 1H Normal, 2H Normal, 1H VA, 2H VA and 1H AC Reduction. Ignoring UC, that's 5 distinct choices compared to DD's 4.
Next look at gear. There is more (I'm not gonna bother listing them) non DD armour choices, than there are for DD.
Same with Skills.
Then's there's the ever popular Weapon allowance and USD for Physical Melee attackers compared to DD.
"I'm agreeing with you there, to a certain point. There's quite a bit of gear, practically *needed* for an UC tank. I think NS also showed us how UC tanks aren't very practical in another thread as well."
Gi or ToA. That's the main choice. As for Gloves, archers a BG, Tanks are Tulks.
With the new supporter items Mages finally get a choice, AG or NS.
Apart from that, there's not really *any* choice in Mage gear. At all.
Given the fact that the majority of the top teams are also Melee Physical attackers, and the MgS still exists, I can't find a reason to ask for a Physical Melee buff.
More choice is always fun for everyone, but Physical Melee already get's more 'unqiue' options than any other type of minion.
"BL is essentially a lost skill now."
Different topic Ranger. If BL is underpowered compared to other skills, that's something that should be addressed.
It changes nothing to do with BL being a Melee Physical *only* skill, yet another little unqiue part of CB they get, Archers and DD don't.
June 25 2007 9:02 AM EDT
BL seems nice, but it's really only useful for the lower levels.
By the time you hit 1mil (M)PR or so, there's more of an advantage to switch to Archery, for it's 3 round benefit, then BL for it's 20odd round benefits. It's just that useful.
June 25 2007 9:24 AM EDT
Ranger, ah, I see -- when your strategy has a problem, it's an obvious lack of choice.
When I point out something I find imbalanced and/or limiting, it's me whining.
Thanks for clearing that up!
Flamey, I totally agree with you, and I have found the ToE to be boring, samey, boring, and did I mention "boring" for some time now. It also happens to be essential for the top level, since walls, PL, TSA, VA, etc. have almost become essential (I think JW's breakdown of the Top Twenty shows at least a bit of lean toward things like the ToE). The same thing happened on CB1 before CB2 was announced. Spid was able to get by simply with massive AC, a huge melee weapon, and VA (no DM to foil it). He played the dexterity game with folks for a while (including me), but once his Loch got to +225, that was pretty much moot. Then, when ELBers started giving him a run, he changed to a massive ELB. He adapted.
(did I mention how boring ToEs are?)
But hey, folks, Ranger has spoken. Let the double-standards commence!
In one post ("CB in decline" thread) we have from Ranger: "There are quests in this game. Try to beat Koy. That is your quest." A pretty clear indication that Koy is the best and the character to beat!
Then, in this thread we get: "The generic melee-only tank is falling behind the DD casters and the archers." Later, when I point out how no one ever promised melee tanks a rose garden and that Ranger needs to adapt, the response is, "There is a difference between adapting and not having choices. This should be obvious." Hm, gripping stuff. A scathing argument, Ranger! On one hand you think Koy is all that (the ultimate quest of the game), and then just two days later you appear to be making a plea that would insinuate you don't think your team has the power it deserves. Um, which is it, Hoss?
You do have choices, and I will once again para-phrase the responses you said to me when I lamented direct damage spells vs large ToE/PL/TSA/VA teams:
-- You need to see that people are doing things differently against you, and you need to change and adapt to meet those changes.
-- Increase net worth.
-- Stop whining.
Now, get on with it. It's obvious. Stop waving your hands around and vomiting platitudes and be quiet. If the straight melee tank isn't working, then DUH stop being a straight melee tank.
Obvious. Obvious. Obvious.
June 25 2007 9:29 AM EDT
I was mostly arguing about what we're defining as choices and maybe we're getting them mixed up with must-haves.
June 25 2007 10:21 AM EDT
Flamey, I don't consider what you were doing as "arguing" at all -- your points are good discussion, well made.
The mix of "must-haves" vs. "choice" is an EXCELLENT delineation you have made. When the answer to a strategy question is "can't beat 'em, join 'em", that is a good indicator of something becoming a "must-have" (something I dislike). The fact that around half of the top teams are using melee-only tanks tells me that "join 'em" has been in effect for a while.
Now, Ranger thinks the phenomenon needs loving? If things are so rough for the melee-only tank (again, a strategy that has NEVER been meant as a "given", IMO), then why are there so many? And while I might even agree that tanks have not had any buffs _recently_, do I need to reiterate the list of things that are specific to tanks that mages have not? Along with items that are meant to foil mages? I have made the list a hundred times, and just because nothing has recently helped melee-specific tanks does not mean they aren't plenty "loved".
"Or UC is you persist in trying something different. "
UC by itself is ineffective. So along side your original statement that melee tanks use *xbows, UC is no different (although a UC tank can't afford to use a HoC vice an HoE, so conversely has to have a supersized exbow.)
June 25 2007 12:56 PM EDT
I have a fundamental contention with the assertion that melee tanks are somehow weaker to the archer or mage. I think this is a failure to realize how incomparably different they are.
Yes, any melee tank will require an extremely high level of AC; and no, it is not as effective as a wall. However, unlike a wall, it's also a fairly viable damage dealer. There is an array of armor that brings the heavy tank's damage into the realm of the mage and archer. He may not do as much overall damage as the archer, yet he his damage reduction is more than compensation. I see it as a compromise. Add VA, redrawing health from the reduced amount you will lose, and your meele tank is a more than valid minion.
Please don't infer my intention of this post as anything but trying to arrive at clarity. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe heavy tanks are vastly underpowered - just please understand I'm not trying to flame you.
And as tactically brilliant as sutekh is, he's exploiting this discussion because of an immature vendetta. I always appreciate reading his stuff, but usually his points are made with the turn of the knife.
Overall, I'm sick of flaming idea that are worth the merit of healthy discussion.
The lack of new players remind me of the value of the CB community. If we could all be a little more gracious and less affrontive we can make CB more of an attraction.
June 25 2007 1:25 PM EDT
Only read the initial post of this thread, but I second it wholeheartedly!
"I'd rather go BL, because Evasion takes too much XP apart from the damage factor. Not everyone has a ToA to be able to freely spend xp into Evasion."
I plan to use Evasion with TSA/EC/MgS as soon as i get enough ST/DX to do so :) Only issue is that people have large ECs near the top, and it is extremely difficult to surpass them, especially with an AoF.
"Yours. The BoNE would overpower your GA more easily and so it would have less effect, and it would kill off the minions more quickly. "
So better to deal more damage, therefore taking more damage from a proper GA, and not regen any of it than to deal less and regen?
June 25 2007 4:12 PM EDT
It is very easy to see you are trying to goad me into an argument. You are trying some sort of "payback" for my posts in the past.
Please keep the personal parts of things out of this post.
I pointed out that lately DD spellcasters and archers are getting the loving. Where is such loving for melee tanks?
If you look at most melee tanks at the higher levels, they are mostly TOE. Yes, the TOE is the best and sometimes only way most melee tanks can survive through 4 rounds of DD spells and archer fire. Sure, let's nerf the TOE and all melee tanks, probably including Koy will cease to exist.
You spout about options and choices but you seem to backtrack on this topic saying I should be like everyone else and use a missile weapon or get a massive wall or retrain. Please be consistent with your rants.
C'mon: Choices or generic strategy? I am confused as to where you stand today, since it changes each day now.
My strategy is not a problem and my NW is not. I was pointing out that lately what has the melee tank gotten? Nada!!
June 25 2007 4:22 PM EDT
If DD and ranged minions get love, the melee minions should get some love as well? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of change?
More damage might overpower the GA so it would retaliate less damage.
June 25 2007 4:33 PM EDT
I have already pointed out that the melee tank has gotten plenty of love in in the past, and still has plenty of choice. So I don't see a current problem simply because it hasn't recently gotten even more love.
Where I stand changing daily? Well, I stand down at the forge most days now -- I didn't know I really had any "stance" to speak of... Can you elaborate on what you are referring to here? I simply told you to adapt. So, adapt. My bullet list above is a list similar to the things you told me at various times (especially the part about getting a ToE and a wall). I'm not sure how that is my fault since I am simply emulating your behavior. You are a well-respected member of the CB community, so how can I be wrong in offering you similar advice to what you offered me? I can honestly say I am rather confused by that.
In any case, it is most definitely your Constitutional right (yes folks, we still have a few left! *smile*) to think whatever you wish about what I am doing or what my stance is. Additionally, I can definitely make clear to you that I am a firm believer in consistent fair play. That's the whole reason I am responding to your analysis of a current CB situation in the same way you responded to mine several months ago (and I will continue to do so as I see fit). The advice I offer you is every bit as on-topic and useful as the advice you gave me: adapt. If you do not care to take the advice, fine. That's only fair, since I certainly did not take your advice either. Like I said -- fair play is key. That sounds consistent to me.
June 25 2007 4:35 PM EDT
"I'd rather go BL, because Evasion takes too much XP apart from the damage factor."
I'd much rather go BL than evasion on my tank. But with some of those exbows out there (you know who you are!) it's either: evasion to not get over 2m ST drained in 1 hit or defeat.
June 25 2007 4:39 PM EDT
The GA question is a good one...one of those wonderful CB choices that is never as easy as it seems... *smile*
Hitting less means you get hit less back and then can regenerate. But if you hit harder you can possibly kill targets more quickly and also "overwhelm" the GA (but that also means their GA is delivering maximum payload for the experience trained into it).
With regenerative/leeching aspects in play now (TSA, PL, VA), hitting slightly softer and lasting more rounds is where things seem to be leaning. In fact, that is what melee play is based on for a lot of folks in the damage-reduction court. Archers want to kill kill kill, a target per round, hitting as hard as possible to overwhelm ToEs, high AC, and PL bleed-off. Melee fighting is more subtle, requiring a more clever balance, especially against varied targets. I think that is why there is no slam-dunk answer on how to train GA or how to fight it. Why do you think I went the lazy route and just trained DM? *smile* Of course, that has tremendous downsides as well...
"from a proper GA" :)
with a x4000 weapon, and a bit over 2.1m ST, i average ~400k damage per shot. against melee damage, it is extremely simple to raise GA to optimal levels. Even with an equal net worth BoNE, BL, and 3m ST, I don't see myself doing more than about 1m damage. and at the level where people swing 80.7m weapons with over 3m ST, 1m into a stat is not only feasable, it is the norm. Going downward in levels, it becomes even easier, as weapon allowance comes into play, making it so that the weapons cannot be all that large, and therefore, much less damage again. So no, there is no chance to overload a GA by making a switch to a slightly larger weapon, unless you are fighting an opponent with no knowledge of how to train a spell...
June 25 2007 4:46 PM EDT
If you cannot see the difference between the 2 threads you quote and your responses in them, I cannot type anymore to make you see the light.
We should change GA damage on melee to retaliate on total damage done in that round instead of per blow :) That's some loving for you melee tanks.
June 25 2007 5:08 PM EDT
Do you really think most Melee tanks stay up at night worrying about GA damage?
No freaking way!!!
It is the fact mages get to pound on us for 4 rounds and archers get to shoot 20 arrows at us before we get to attack.
Similar to the problems CoC mages had until the HoC was "adapted" to make them cast in missile rounds and the NS's came out to help with their AMF backlash. Now one sees a plethora of CoC mages coming up through the ranks.
Seriously, when was the last boost/buff to the generic Melee tank? Anyone?
If balance has been achieved, where is the need for boost/buff? Less wild pendulum swings, more balance. --> Less whining, more thinking. --> Less self-obsessed posting, fewer strokes. Good all around.
since when should game balance issues be addressed due to how recent someone received "loving"?
June 25 2007 5:21 PM EDT
Guys, you're misinterpreting on what is a proper GA. A proper GA isn't a GA that is equal to the blow of your enemy on you. You will not get 60% backlash if it was a 400k blow and you have a 400k GA. Look for yourself, of course taking out all the other factors, you still wont see 60% return.
RD knows about this, your GA needs to be 2 times or 2 and a half times the blow for it to fully return 60%.
Sut, I wasn't implying I was arguing, it just sounded better in that sentence :P
June 25 2007 5:23 PM EDT
All the time, if you cannot see it, you must be blind. Or in some people cases, just antagonistic to everything someone posts.
"Do you really think most Melee tanks stay up at night worrying about GA damage?"
I'm sure they don't, just offering a suggestion on the topic.
June 25 2007 5:38 PM EDT
"If balance has been achieved, where is the need for boost/buff?"
But one has to assume balance has been achieved. Some do not believe that has been the case for a while.
"Less wild pendulum swings, more balance."
Certainly, is that not what all the discussions in the forums are about, balance?
"--> Less whining, more thinking".
So, anyone who posts that something may be off is whining? Is that not what the forums are for, the exchange of ideas to make CB a better game? Or better yet, perhaps I should just post to correct grammar and spelling.
"--> Less self-obsessed posting, fewer strokes. Good all around."
No comment needed. But hey, my grammar has not been corrected, guess that is one less thing I have to worry about, whew, my day is made!
"Do you really think most Melee tanks stay up at night worrying about GA damage?"
GA screws with UC quite well....
Ranger, this isn't a shot aimed at you in any way, but come on, show where Archers and Mages have more 'Choice' than Physical Melee (Tank gives the wrong connotations to newer MMO players...) or turn this discussion into a balance one, not an options one...
I'd still be very hard pressed to see an arguement support Physical Melee in general (not specifics like BL) being underpowered compared to the rest of CB.
Especially given its wealth of past 'lovin'.
June 25 2007 6:14 PM EDT
I never said they have more choice.
That was in response to others saying I had to adapt, that is use a bow and become an archer. No choice in that.
I am saying that melee tanks are starting to lag behind mages and archers, especially in the "goodies" they have seen in the last few months.
What "loving" has a melee tank seen lately. Mages got the HoC and NS. Archers got the HoC and uber damage with the BG/ELB combo and now got the MSB for autoseeking.
Again, what has the generic melee tank gotten lately. C'mon, let's see a supporter item for the generic tank, or at least the HoC work for them.
Basically unless you use a TOE, your toast in the missile rounds. The TOE may be overpowered but it is the only real way for a generic melee tank to live long enough vs 4 rounds of magic/missile.
And I would put UC in the same category as melee tank.
"Basically unless you use a TOE, your toast in the missile rounds. The TOE may be overpowered but it is the only real way for a generic melee tank to live long enough vs 4 rounds of magic/missile."
You can use a familiar too. I know you said in earlier thread that familiars are worse than a ToE but it gives you pretty much a solid chance of making it to melee combat. Besides, free damage.
I figure the best way to state my opinion will be to quote some earlier points in this thread. :)
"any melee tank will require an extremely high level of AC;"
"although a UC tank can't afford to use a HoC vice an HoE, so conversely has to have a supersized exbow."
"Yes, the TOE is the best and sometimes only way most melee tanks can survive through 4 rounds of DD spells and archer fire."
"Are you honestly saying all of the things to survive long enough aren't enough? VA, PL, ToE, high AC, TSA -- that's not enough love (and two of those things are essentially tank-only already)?"
Hmm... Require... Has to have... Only way... Not enough?
It seems to be that melee tanks have to use VA, PL, ToE, AC, TSA, basically everything available, to live long enough to stand a chance to win?
What do other strategies REQUIRE to stand a chance, then? CoC? FB? MM? Archers? Prove me wrong, but I don't think any of those need as much as a melee tank to survive, in terms of NW. CoC needs AC, PL, NS, HoC, and ToE. FB needs AGs, CoI, ToE. Oops, my mistake. That's right, they don't need those. Those are extras that you can choose to have.
Can a melee tank last long enough against FB, MM, CoC, or an ELB to kill them? Not without AC, ToE, PL, VA, TSA, or any of those other things.
Can MM, FB, CoC, or an ELB last long enough to kill a melee tank? Most likely. Not only does a melee tank have to cut through meat shields, but it also has to wait 3, possibly 4, rounds in order to start attacking. Even CoC can rip through meat shields
I'm fairly sure that mages are supposed to be the 'easy way out'. Meaning, they don't require as much, but they also don't have the full power of a tank.
ELB gives the raw power that will rip through just about anything that doesn't cost millions upon millions to create. And the ELB itself doesn't cost as much as heavy armor, ToE, TSA, and a melee weapon would cost.
Where does this leave melee tanks? Mages have the cheap, but weak end. ELB has the middle in cost and the high in power. Melee tanks have the high in cost and the middle in power, no?
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I may not be looking at the full picture in terms of things like AMF, DM, etc, but it would seem to me that melee tanks need some sort of way to counter the high power of archers and the low cost of mages.
If a melee tank has better choices in becoming a mage or an archer, how is it supposed to be competitive and balanced?
You can call me an idiot and blast through everything I said now. :)
"There is a difference between adapting and not having choices."
June 25 2007 6:37 PM EDT
There is another choice for a melee based team. Equip a ranged weapon. WA is big enough to fit a decent sized bow under the hood. There is the matter of the first round of melee to contend with, and the first round of ranged if you don't equip a HoC but...it's another choice. Tanks are designed to hold TWO weapons. A real 'generic' tank uses both.
So in that situation the MSB is a nice new toy for archers and melee tanks....
Feel the love? ;)
That was my suggestion earlier; take away the 1 round penalty to melee for using a ranged weapon. Either everyone missed it or it was a bad suggestion that only I thought was good :P
June 25 2007 6:48 PM EDT
I have to agree with Ranger on this. I was always planning with my characters to go 1 or maybe even 2 tanks . I was fed up losing in the ranged rounds to decided to put a little archer in the mix.
Even without Archery trained I found with a little CB$ investment it was even worth dropping the melee weapon and using the ranged weapon in melee.
I would love to use my big Morg/Bone/Both or even my smallinsh VB effectively.
Ranger, that's why your point doesn't hold weight. Melee hasn't seen recent lovin' or additions, becuase it has had the vast share of CB lovin' already.
Don't be greedy. Melee has had it all already.
More weapons with special properties. More skills. More Armour, more Enchantments. (Dare I even mention more Weapons...)
Now, other aspects are starting to catch up. We still need more 'unqiues' to level the playing field, but it's started.
This thread just screams of wanting *something*, *anything*, for no other reason than someone else got something.
If Melee is really lagging behind, show some evidence. The top 20 doesn't support it. MPB is so badly skewed that can't be used in support.
What reason are you finding for this, or (again, don't take this persoannly) is it only that you are finding troubles with Melee?
"Basically unless you use a TOE, your toast in the missile rounds. The TOE may be overpowered but it is the only real way for a generic melee tank to live long enough vs 4 rounds of magic/missile."
EH/MgS Rear wall backed by PL for MM.
Massive Evasion and/or DB for Ranged. But the Bow is bigger? Isn't the response to this always that if they are bigger, don't they deserve to win?
For the old CB1 uber archer, there's always three 20 HP minions plus a familiar to suck up thier four ranged rounds. Then you hit them with your massive life leeching weapon o' doom.
June 25 2007 7:19 PM EDT
The MPBs certainly show that missile damage is quite overpowered. The few in the tens of millions are an anomaly due to past changelogs. But one can certainly see missile damage is multi fold that of melee.
Now about the top 20, I remember many people saying the top 20 is not indicative of the real game of CB as there is so much infusion of CB2 which skews the data. Of course I can see that.
One needs to view the new characters that are being made and that are up and coming. I see a few archers (some using the new seeking bow), quite a few mages (including CoC mages) but not that many generic melee tanks. This is where one needs to see what is happening.
Why are there so few melee tanks in the lower ranks? Well one needs to have a lot of AC, a MgS (most of the time), and likely a TOE. Quite boring as someone says and I agree with that. How else is a melee only tank going to live to melee and have a chance. As a lot of us have found out already, AS is a poor spell, very easily dispelled by DM. A ROS can help, but the DM resistance is far too low, IMO of course.
Now, with the MgS being a supporter item, how are new players who want to play the melee tank going to get one. They are not, so therefore they need to be archer or mage. But this is for yet another thread.
June 25 2007 7:25 PM EDT
"For the old CB1 uber archer, there's always three 20 HP minions plus a familiar to suck up thier four ranged rounds. Then you hit them with your massive life leeching weapon o' doom."
Yes, very true, but then your a single minion tank fighting their full intact team.
Considering they an use a melee weapon equal to yours, you are toast. Or perhaps they will use base decay mages equipped with NS's to slowly suck the life out of you until their elb only equipped TOA archer hits you and kills you. Or. they cannot use a melee weapon and STILL attack in the first melee round, finishing you off in 5 rounds while you get to attack and leech hp off their 20 hp enchanter in front.
Not much of a fair fight I say.
June 25 2007 7:38 PM EDT
I *will* correct what I am seeing in one area.
"It seems to be that melee tanks have to use VA, PL, ToE, AC, TSA, basically everything available, to live long enough to stand a chance to win?
What do other strategies REQUIRE to stand a chance, then? CoC? FB? MM? Archers? Prove me wrong, but I don't think any of those need as much as a melee tank to survive, in terms of NW. CoC needs AC, PL, NS, HoC, and ToE. FB needs AGs, CoI, ToE. Oops, my mistake. That's right, they don't need those. Those are extras that you can choose to have. "
CoC mages *DO* still *REQUIRE* quite a substantial amount of protection to be useful. That single round moved up didn't suddenly make them super-spectacular in comparison to a generic melee tank, and don't make the mistake of thinking so. They still have to live through 3 (as opposed to 4) rounds of ranged before they can do any damage, as well as having to deal with AMF and an increased vulnerability to GA due to split damage.
Just figured I would point that out.
As for the rest of the argument, I see no reason to get myself involved.
June 25 2007 7:49 PM EDT
I still find it odd that you guys keep posting VA as a viable stat to train. It has so many nerfs that it's not worth wasting the exp on it. PL, DM just for starters. And the exp required to get it to the level for max effect is IMO much more usefull on something else.
June 25 2007 7:59 PM EDT
Ranger, the way I see it, you aren't asking for a melee tank buff as much as a ranged (tank and mage) nerf. Wouldn't a ranged nerf make more sense than simply escalating melee tanks up to uber damage and quick kills?
I just have a hard time getting on board because of this: yes, a melee tank may be more limited. But that's like me saying a CoC mage is limited. A melee tank is a _type_ of tank. It is not meant to be a pure stance (at least not without a lot of thought) any more than a pure CoC mage is (are there really that many pure CoC mages coming up the ranks? How do they survive?).
I could say the same thing about the single FB mage, the single MM mage, the pure archer -- these are MINIONS not STANCES. I will be the very first in line to lament that lesser-minioned teams are at a disadvantage. I wish the balance in this game could be from low NW to high, one minion to four, score 1 to score 4 million. But that's hard to achieve. I suppose that is why I fall back on history for guidance.
The melee-only tank was NEVER a widespread phenomenon on CB1, at least not before CB2 was announced. Spid even was forced to adapt when his wall/tank/leecher began showing chinks. Yet it has become commonplace here, so commonplace that you are defending it as something a pure newbie starting from scratch should be able to start with. I do not, in any way, think that a melee tank (only) stance is something a new player should be able to use. A melee tank strategy is a mature strategy, like when a mature company goes from being a growth stock to paying dividends -- it's the way of things, or at least A way of things.
Do you really think a pure melee tank should be able to survive at low ranks? One dude and a whip, being able to survive mages who can throw fireballs from a distance, and archers who can shoot them before they even unfurl their whip?
I'm asking because I wish to find common ground. To understand where you are coming from. I personally do not feel it is a viable strategy for a new player, and I would have assumed you would be on board with teams needing to morph, shift, adapt as they grow larger and stronger. Some from MPR, some from USD, some from downright savvy.
The melee tank has become a formula at the high levels, A base foundation to which various elements are applied. I see the differences between teams like Koy, edyit, and Oxcha. I glom the nuances. But the basic stance is "survive till melee, and have enough left to still dish out the pain". ToE, TSA, PL, VA: they make that possible.
So... maybe you're right. You're out of new choices. That's because you've taken advantage of all the choices that were already there, built a cohesion beyond reproach, and now are out of new things to try. I, for one, don't think CB owes you still more to choose from. If you want real choice, start from scratch as something completely different, or start an NCB (and no, I didn't say be an archer). With seekers out of the game now, isn't there a lot more you can try? *smile*
June 25 2007 8:07 PM EDT
Well we all know nothing will be done with the excessive missile damages elbs and the newMSB can throw out, numerous times a round with the TOA's PTH.
So instead of a missile nerf, the other way is to buff the other.
CB2 is not CB1. Jon designed it different. In fact, with the recent archery changes including the fact an archer has to change weapon and lose a round of combat, I for one, thought it obvious a melee tank was a choice that was acceptable.
Perhaps I was wrong. Every tank now has to use a bow of some sort and lose that round switching weapons. Hell for choice.
June 25 2007 9:09 PM EDT
So push for having to use both but removing the round 4 moratorium on action. I would be amazingly on board with that.
Gratuitous grammar fix: *designed it differently
"Every tank now has to use a bow of some sort and lose that round switching weapons."
That's one area where UC gets a 1up. I don't have a one round delay.
Exactly. Use UC and pump your WA into a MgS (without archery, relying on your cash injected +) or a SoD.
There are choices, and Melee has by far the most out of anything in the game.
I've said from day one that Ranged damage should never have more potential than Melee, simply because it goes before. If that is what this is about, pure Ranged (not HoC boosted CoC) has grown larger than Melee can cope with, then I'm on board (for a Ranged reduction). But where's the support?
I suppose we'll have to wait until a Magekiller is pumped up to the same size as the largest ELBows or Morgs to see if the Damage it can pump out is too much.
But then I'd just mention the AoI. Tank in Front with an AoI. Three minions and a Familiar.
And I think Sute has shown how hard it is for FB/MM to make much of a dent up top.
June 26 2007 3:14 AM EDT
Ranged damage has to be big; as far as I can see Jon designed it that way to make it easy for you to clear the way in those 'three' rounds (as it was) so you can take on the opposing damage dealer in melee. Melee damage is lower than ranged because you have another 20 or so rounds to take out the opposition.
Big damage in ranged means you don't need to invest as much in a ranged weapon and can concentrate your spend on your melee weapon.
In reality it hasn't worked out that way obviously and the recent addition of the HoC has changed that even more. But it is obvious that this was how it was 'designed' originally, which is why so many options for melee exist.
June 26 2007 3:23 AM EDT
How am I possibly going to use a Ranged weapon that does anything? I'd be better off putting it into my MH.
I've been arguing about the difference of "choice" and "must-have", you guys seem to be missing that, or misinterpreting what I'm saying.
Yeah, GL, and everyone else who suggested, VA/PL/TSA/AC/TOE/everyotherchoice, they're not real choices, you guys seem to think that you can use one or maybe a couple of those things for it still to be viable. I thought a choice was where you could *choose*, how is that choosing? Use VA, use PL, use a ToE, use a TSA. That's must-have now.
I think you're proving my point, you keep listing these spells and items, but that's it. We need them to survive now?
June 26 2007 3:24 AM EDT
oh to add:
"ToE, TSA, PL, VA: they make that possible. "
They are the only things that make it possible, that's not choice, that's a must have.
June 26 2007 3:25 AM EDT
Supporter items and their place in a battle, melee or ranged:
1. Jigorokano Familiar - ranged meatshield, action in melee
2. Mage Shield - all purpose
3. Vorpal Blade - melee
4. Rune of Enlightenment - all purpose
5. Trollskin Armor - aid to melee survival
6. Amulet of Invisibility - aid to melee survival
7. Amulet of Focus - all purpose
8. Helm of Clearsight - extra ranged attack
9. Rune of Enlightenment (Reintroduced) - all purpose
10. Noldorin Spellcasters - mage toy
Ten supporter items - only one that is specifically for ranged.
June 26 2007 3:33 AM EDT
TSA is a whole tank thing, it was first introduced as ST boosting and still does so.
AoI is an all purpose thing as well, if I'm not mistaken.
June 26 2007 3:36 AM EDT
AoI is an all purpose thing, but it's main use is to get through ranged untouched IMO. Which makes it seem built for a melee tank.
And melee tanks are the only type to get FREE MPR from a weapon. Nobody else has that.
June 26 2007 3:38 AM EDT
Free MPR from a weapon? What? Are you talking about UC?
June 26 2007 3:50 AM EDT
No, the Morg. You get free VA. How much MPR would it take for Ranger to build a VA that gave him 20% do you think? And then VA gives you extra HP too...so a melee tank using a Morg is actually a lot bigger than his/her recorded MPR. Provided he/she gets a chance to use it..... ;)
June 26 2007 3:54 AM EDT
Looking at the supporter items, melee tanks did get some of the biggest loving the game has ever seen. Whatever did happen to the Vorpal Blade?
June 26 2007 3:55 AM EDT
Well in that case ranged teams are the only ones that can reduce their opponents MPR (Exbow/Axbow) :)
"Yeah, GL, and everyone else who suggested, VA/PL/TSA/AC/TOE/everyotherchoice, they're not real choices, you guys seem to think that you can use one or maybe a couple of those things for it still to be viable. I thought a choice was where you could *choose*, how is that choosing? Use VA, use PL, use a ToE, use a TSA. That's must-have now."
Really? So nothing without trained VA+PL+ToE+TSA is worth using? Ever?
What about a MgS? EH?
Can we just have a vote on who thinks this is exactly like the "give mages some loving" thread.
I vote yes.
Therefore, nothing should be done, except heated discussions
June 26 2007 4:52 AM EDT
Ooh, SP throws exbows and axbows on the table. I could argue that exbows and axbows are actually melee tank weapons. After all why else would you want to diminish an enemy tank if not to soften him up for melee? You're certainly not likely to find a tank that only uses an axbow after all....
Plus the special XBows aren't supported by the Archery skill. ;)
June 26 2007 5:30 AM EDT
I'm casting in my vote with noneedforthese.
LoL It's nothing like the same.
Name the Mage only Skill? Or ED?
June 26 2007 5:36 AM EDT
"Really? So nothing without trained VA+PL+ToE+TSA is worth using? Ever?
What about a MgS? EH?"
GL, you need a large combination of those things, and if you looked at them individually are the *needed* for a strat? Not really, except for maybe the ToE. You can live life without the others, but to be effective you have to take the path of that big combination?
Can you mix and match Flamey? Could you (for example only) Drop the PL or FSA, and add a MgS or EH. Or do both and still remain 'effective' (whatever that means).
June 26 2007 5:42 AM EDT
well, my problem is Archers, so MgS and EH are pretty useless.
By effective I was trying to say, can you use two (or more) combinations (separately) of all those wondrous things and still do well? Or do we need all or most of those things.
June 26 2007 5:44 AM EDT
*need*? no. But do they offer an enormous, obvious advantage? yes.
Flamey I'm not quite sure what you're asking for still... if your problem is just with archers, then you solutions, unfortunately, are identical to everyone else's solutions.
1. kill them first (attacking in the last round of ranged will not help you here)
2. survive the hits (if there's a new anti-archer item, everyone will be able to use it, not just melee tanks... unless you are suggesting a melee-tank only item?!?!?)
Solution 1 can come in the form of:
a. ranged weapon (you clearly don't want that)
b. attack during ranged (...... you want to throw your weapon??)
c. make HoC usable with melee tanks (flavour-wise, that doesn't even make sense, but heck, even if that were true I very much doubt you can kill the archer in one round... and that one round helps you survive how? he'll still hit you!)
Solution 2 can come in the form of:
a. ranged specific armour (think it's viable for a melee-tank only item to be released? e.g. cannot attack during ranged/DD nullified)
b. more evasion (hahahah ;) )
c. nerf ranged damage (dozens of strategies nullified because of the want of few.. fair? balanced?)
d. nerf ToA (read above, except even wider effect)
June 26 2007 6:32 AM EDT
I didn't read most of that but yes with the part that says nerf ToA! =D
June 26 2007 7:04 AM EDT
noneed, its not that I don't want a ranged weapon, but without external input of money into the game, it is quite difficult to have a decent Ranged AND Melee weapon.
We all know making HoC viable for melee tanks is stupid. Because that's the same as no HoC at all.
I like this, though,
"a. ranged specific armour (think it's viable for a melee-tank only item to be released? e.g. cannot attack during ranged/DD nullified)"
Dunno if you could make it equal with the other armours.
"b. more evasion (hahahah ;) )"
Doesn't work, ToA overwhelms badly.
"c. nerf ranged damage (dozens of strategies nullified because of the want of few.. fair? balanced?)
d. nerf ToA (read above, except even wider effect)"
Wouldn't mind that. :)
I've always liked something like an Inertia Shield. Like the Mage Shield, but reduces Ranged damage. ;)
Agreed with OB. ToAs need weakening!
June 26 2007 8:36 AM EDT
less PTH please!
So they don't get triple or double hits with a PTH of 7 on their weapon. Probably makes Evasion a little more viable too.
I'm not sure what Flamey is asking for either noneed seeing as the only archer in the game that can beat him 100% is mikel.
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