July 20 2007 8:03 PM EDT
Ranger made a thread about this a while ago - feel free to link to this, anyone! - and I just thought I'd bring the topic back up since I've gone through around 3/4 of my NCB now and experience what he was talking about.
The N*B - the NUB specifically, in fact, and the NCB to a lesser extent I believe - is intended to allow the user to get build a team up to 90% of the top team's MPR or so. I don't know if that's the MPR at the time the user begins his N*B, at the time he ends it, or whatever, but I know this much - it won't get him there.
Assuming Ranger was at 2.7M MPR when I started, my NCB should've - if I'd been capable of burning all my BA - given me bonus enough to allow me to grow potentially to a size of 2.43M MPR, and that's assuming the N*B allows you to grow to 90% of the top team's MPR at the time the user starts his/her N*B.
This potential growth is off even further if it is supposed to catch up to 90% of the top team's MPR by the time the N*B finishes.
I can tell you there's no way I could've gotten there. No possible way. Nerevas was growing at about the same rate as me, ALSO using a RoE - which I don't believe is calculated into the N*B growth rate? - and I'm pretty sure he'd agree with me that we couldn't have either one hit 2.43M MPR even with all our BA.
Perhaps the miscalculation stems from the thought that we'd be capable of holding a 100% challenge bonus from day 1 until day 120? If so, then there's a terrible flaw in the N*B, and it'll never work properly.
Don't get me wrong, now - I'm not complaining about where my NCB has gotten, because I've certainly missed my share of BA. I've probably missed a solid 5 or 6 days of BA total. However, if its broken, it probably needs fixing, especially to be fair to the new players joining the game.
It's been a few months, and I think enough money has been flushed to warrant a fix.
I miss some BA too, because I sleep, mainly. Bought it all though. And burned lots of it still. 90% if it at least, for sure.
2.43 mil? Not even in our wildest dreams. It just can't be. Not even close. And as you stated, that is not fair at all for those new players who aim for the top.
For the sake of keeping with the whole newbie friendly attitude that has been going on in the latest changes, I think the percentages must be revised. For consistency.
I think it's calculated incorrectly too. Because my last NCB, which was made a month before my current NCB, got 144% as a bonus. My newer one gets 143% bonus. OB gets 145% with his NCB. I don't see how our bonuses can be going down since Ranger's MPR is always going up.
That is pretty screwed up...
July 21 2007 2:46 PM EDT
All one has to do it look at Mikel's character.
2.27M MPR weeks after his NCB is done.
Now he had a huge advantage over new N*B players which included:
1) The N*B was 16% or so higher for the first 3 months of his character. For those new, Jon lowered the N*B about 16% after the BA regeneration was changed from every 10 to every 20 minutes.
2) The ability to use seeker arrows with his massive elb, therefore the ability to get a higher challenge bonus for longer.
3) His use of a massive DB's from day 1, thus getting a larger challenge bonus then N*B players get now.
4) His use of a named ROE from day 1 to about day 90 of his NCB.
5) He even bought a minion near the end of his NCB.
6) Even with the old BA regeneration, Mikel missed almost 0 BA. So he got royally messed up by the lowering of the N*B when the BA regeneration changed.
Guess where he ended up? About 80% of the top MPR. WIth 2 more minions he would be about 90% of the top MPR. That was with the old N*B. I realize that people did buy minions at the end to take the top MPR but now, with the lowered N^B that is impossible by a long shot, IMO.
Now with the N*B being 16% less, there is no way I can see that anyone, short of buying 3 more minions can get within 30% of Koy's MPR. Even with buying 3 minions after the N*B is over may not get you to 90% of Koy's MPR.
I was against the NUB until the point where bought BA became free (an outstanding change), and still believe it is too low
July 21 2007 2:58 PM EDT
Thanks for the reminder again :(
July 21 2007 5:51 PM EDT
While I am pleased that my sotto voce thoughts have been echoed by OB and Ranger, I still believe this issue is moot until we can prove that it isn't a result of missing fights and having a low challenge bonus.
July 21 2007 6:28 PM EDT
MiniMem (Trillion) 220.127.116.11 Miandrital (Tony the Tigah) $10000 -- Word of the Day! 6:27 PM EDT
MiniMem (Trillion) 18.104.22.168 Miandrital (Tony the Tigah) $10000 -- Word of the Day! 6:27 PM EDT
July 21 2007 6:50 PM EDT
Ranger - I do beleive it is possible to get within 30% of Koy's MPR.. Thats not even half!
July 21 2007 7:05 PM EDT
Mikel neither missed fights nor had a low challenge bonus.
In fact his bonus likely cannot be replicated due to the banishment of seekers, which he used to their maximum efficacy.
July 22 2007 11:59 AM EDT
Zach, you know very well that Ranger means it's nearly impossible to get 70% of Koy's MPR.
July 22 2007 12:44 PM EDT
Someone go look at his battles challenged and see how many full days of BA there are.
July 22 2007 1:22 PM EDT
Within 30% is not the same as being 30%.
July 22 2007 4:04 PM EDT
Oops, misread.. Sorry about that..
Also, this brings up a good point.. As much as the NCB helps me gain MPR much quicker, I would see it very difficult to even reach 2million MPR with it.. For me, I'd be extremely proud of myself just to get 1mil MPR, let alone 2 with an NCB..
July 22 2007 4:16 PM EDT
Yeah...it is extremely disheartening to spend well over $30M, even knowing that I've missed probably close to a solid week's worth of BA total, and only reach 1.35M MPR at the 3/4 point.
I don't think there's much more to say on this topic except that the N*B needs fixing...
1 MINUTE 1
July 22 2007 7:48 PM EDT
Well maybe it will be different now with free BA meaning nobody has to miss buying BA.
We can spend all our money on better weapons getting better rewards?
Only NUBs. I suppose due to the recent change NUBs don't have the opportunity anymore to reach the top because they can't buy BA now...
1 MINUTE 1
July 22 2007 9:26 PM EDT
You mean NCB's right?
July 23 2007 11:42 PM EDT
Fanta, they still get it, it is just FREE, from what I understand
July 23 2007 11:43 PM EDT
Not that they could reach the top anyways with the N*B as it is. At least they won't blow millions that they've saved up or spent USD on.
Just to clarify a few things...
* As I mentioned, the bonus is supposed to get you to 95%, not 90%
* Only the NUB gets free BA, not the NCB
* NUB cash rewards are lowered equivalently to make it as if they always buy all the BA possible. This does not gain them any money -- it just prevents some amounts of selling for USD.
* A NUB that forgets or cannot buy free BA during a given day does not have the cash equivalent (obviously), so forgetting to buy or choosing not to buy results in a reduction of total character power (that is, an aggregate of XP and CBD)
* Missing a solid week of bonus time is equivalent to about two full months of a Jan 1 character doing nothing.
* Getting an NCB to the top or close to the top is all sorts of messed up due to how drastic minion purchases can skew results.
I guess that's all...
Ohh, they get 60% of their money. I thought it was their overall bonus.
Does anyone have any insight of why NxB bonuses are getting lower? Like I said before, OB's NCB bonus is 145%. My second to last NCB got 144%. And my latest NCB gets 143% NCB bonus. And I know Jon lowered the bonuses, which was why the bonus was 165% when I was a NUB. Something must be wrong if Ranger is growing yet the NCB bonus is shrinking?
July 24 2007 9:07 AM EDT
Could it just be that Ranger's monocracy is simply due to the fact that he keeps spending all his BA every day on getting bigger?
It seem sort of unavoidable that he will eventually outdistance everyone and that even the bigger N*B bonuses will not be enough to reach 90% of his score.
A year ago, reaching an MPR of over 2M meant that you were close to the top of the charts. That is not the case anymore. It takes a much bigger score.
Then again, I might be completely wrong.
Talion, Rangers current char had the NUB and caught up to the top, then leapfrogged them by adding minions...
July 24 2007 10:11 AM EDT
Rangers current char: "<i>Created October 26, <b>2005</b></i>". That was more than 19 months ago. The top char at that time probably had a MPR much, much, much lower than Koyaanisqatsi's current 2,875,065.
July 24 2007 10:11 AM EDT
Rangers current char: "Created October 26, 2005". That was more than 19 months ago. The top char at that time probably had a MPR much, much, much lower than Koyaanisqatsi's current 2,875,065.
Oddly enough, it was TAB who had the top MPR at the time (Ranger's old char)...
I believe Jon said the bonus was based on the time since CB opened, not top MPR...I could be mistaken.
July 24 2007 10:23 AM EDT
Even if "time since CB opened" is in the bonus calculation algorithm, that should still be going up. With BA regeneration cut in half, it is EASIER for Ranger to burn/buy all his BA. I can see where Jonathan works time into the equation, but if that time is being spent growing as fast as ever (still in a top clan, still burning all BA, still exempt from negative challenge bonus), how can bonus be decreasing?
The only way I can see is that the bonus is not based on top character, but top 5 or something. Hasn't that been alluded to before?
July 24 2007 5:27 PM EDT
MiniMem (Trillion) 22.214.171.124 Talion (Talion v1.0) $10000 -- Word of the Day! 5:27 PM EDT
July 24 2007 5:34 PM EDT
Mantra's old character (Cosmos--->Koy) was about 1.5-1.6M MPR when it overtook TAB for top spot.
It was previously understood that the bonus was monotonically increasing with respect to time (specifically, days). If the bonus rolled backwards, it would imply a sudden recalibration.
That is, if the aforementioned understand is correct.
In this post, novice, you seem convinced that it is as stated. Do you know where that comes from?
It's a consecutive lowering too. I made my first NCB after OB made his and got 1% less bonus, then made my second NCB a month later, and got 1% less bonus than my first NCB.
July 25 2007 2:01 AM EDT
Meaning with every ~4 months the N*B is losing 1% to it's bonus.
July 25 2007 7:13 PM EDT
MiniMem (Trillion) 126.96.36.199 NightStrike (The Iconics 3e) $20 -- $20 word award 7:12 PM EDT
July 25 2007 10:22 PM EDT
What's really got me kind of annoyed right now is that I've spent 30M on this NCB and it is going down the drainhole...I'm sure my clanmates are not going to be happy with the rest of my NCB, as I've decided to stop purchasing this expensive BA and flushing my money down this NCB's sinkhole, since it won't stand a chance of getting a decent MPR.
Actually, no, that's not the part that's got me annoyed. The part that pretty much bugs me is that this has been KNOWN for several months - Ranger made the initial thread months ago - and there's been no confirmation that Jon recognizes a need for a fix, much less that he might be going to fix it. Whereas if this were the opposite - if the N*B were too high and I were gaining too quickly - he'd be quick to quash this problem, either by a direct N*B reduction or by a shortening of the remainder of its lifespan (sound familiar, Mikel?). There'll be no compensation of the opposite sort, however. Kind of disheartening, wouldn't you say?
But then, that's what I'd expect, I suppose. I don't know, I suppose it is because this is the first time I've invested my own personal cash into it - I invested USD into this N*B, into this character, a large portion of it straight to Jonathan himself in the form of buying Supportership for quite a few new players - and it is all going to go to waste.
*EXTREMELY* disheartening. Really, the only thing keeping me playing this NCB right now is the sense of loyalty I feel towards my clanmates. They - Ranger especially - have helped me out so much in developing and growing this NCB, and in supporting the strategy, in deciding when to hire minions, in providing gears to help out...I couldn't just bail on them. They are a perfect example of why Battle Royale is the number one clan (regardless of Clan Standings at any given time, if you ask me). Otherwise I would just try to sell this NCB to anyone willing to salvage it and try to make out with what little cash I could from it.
But this isn't even about my own personal NCB. This is about the fact that EVERYONE trying to run a N*B towards the top is going to be met with this same disappointing outcome. Everyone. And there might be a fix, and there might not, and it may come soon, and it may not. Either way, there'll be no salvaging the NUB for those who started 3 months ago. Bad luck pals, shame you started when you did - and there's no way you'll be scaled up to where you should be, even though if the N*B had been too high you certainly would've had a chance at being scaled down.
Stupid NCB is making me feel pessimistic.
July 25 2007 10:41 PM EDT
aint no problem with NUB just NCB ;)
I feel for you OB.
I seriously think NUB should stay as it is, but NCB needs a significant boost.
To reach 95% of Koy is a dream, but I think it's not ridiculous to ask to be within 80%. Even after you reach that MPR, the top shouldn't crumble down or anything... In fact they'd probably earn better rewards since there will be more people filling that incredible void that is 2mil MPR....
2 cents out!
Curse you OB, I had let this go long ago ;)
I think Jon has a dilemma here and that the problems with the NUB which some of us saw long ago are really coming home to roost now.
If he makes keeps the bonus at the level where it needs to be to enable you to get to within 95% of the top MPR the bonus will just be too much. The community will be further split into NUB/vet. Vet dissatisfaction will grow, multi problems will grow etc etc.
As I said in the first round of NUB arguments I don't think it is possible to keep the bonus growing without alienating a large portion of the community. With a grinder game like this the NUB is the developer wanting to have his cake and eat it.
Wow, OB, I never really saw you upset before.....
July 25 2007 11:25 PM EDT
"This is about the fact that EVERYONE trying to run a N*B towards the top is going to be met with this same disappointing outcome."
The only recent NUB/NCB to get to the top ranks in the last 6 months has been Mikel's character King of Pain.
1) He had a massive set of DB's which helped him get a 100% challenge bonus from day 1.
2) He also had the ability to use seekers on top of the massive ELB to keep that bonus as long as possible.
3) He also had a bonus that was not recently reduced 16% for the first 3 months of that N*B.
4) He played over 95% all his allotted and bought BA, even before the x/20 min regeneration came about.
5) He bought all his BA no matter the cost. Most NCBers stop buying in the last month or two.
For Mikel to buy new minions will be 40M for the decent one, which is a fiscal fiasco. 40M is better spent on upping his ELB, DBs or MgS, then hiring a kill slot.
With the present N*B, there is no way I can perceive a N^B getting to within 1M MPR of Koy. And even buying 3 minions at the end (over 100M in investment) would likely get you to 500k of Koy.
One would have to do something better then Mikel did on his NCB and I just cannot see that happening.
July 25 2007 11:34 PM EDT
MiniMem (Trillion) 188.8.131.52 QBOB (Team Unstoppable) $20 -- $20 word award 11:34 PM EDT
July 26 2007 7:09 AM EDT
At this rate ignignokt might get over 2 mil, that was the last time I checked, that's just going off what he's doing now.
Hey, I made it to #8.... I just fell back, is all.
July 26 2007 10:08 AM EDT
You still fell over 1M short of Koy's MPR.
Indeed.. but I got far score wise without ever double tapping, which is a good indication of how much I was able to do with that MPR. I think that counts for something...
And for the record, I broke 2m VPR -- I just didn't train it. I have a *LOT* of untrained XP.
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