BoTH needs a deserved boost (in General)


Talion July 23 2007 8:41 AM EDT

I have been reading in a lot of threads lately that any sane tank always chooses the Morgul Hammer over the Blade of Thuringwethil. That's ok. I have never pretended to be a mentally sane person, so I am sticking with my BoTH.

However, today (yes... today), I noticed that the Morgul Hammer [84] deals more damage than the Executioner's Sword [82], but the Blade of Thuringwethil [73] deals less damage than the Katana [74]???

This doesn't make any sense in my opinion.

Shouldn't the BoTH be dealing at least [75] base damage?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 23 2007 8:45 AM EDT

BoNE [90]
MH [84]
Exe [82]

ELS [80]
Kat [74]
BTh [73]

The BTh should be moved up to between the ELS and Kat. ;)

8DEOTWP July 23 2007 8:56 AM EDT

1) Drains life (HP)* for 20% of damage. (i.e. If you do 1,000 damage, you can drain a maximum* of 200 HP from your target and add it to your own HP.)

2) BoTH's cost per x is 674$ less than the Katana's.
Thus the Katana at 74x50 is dealing out 3,700 damage at an upgrade cost of 416,206$.
If you spent the same amount, 416,206$, on a BoTH it would be 74x53 (53.3) and be doing 3,869. This gap is only to enlarge as it grows.

So it does more damage for the money, and it has life-leech.

QBJohnnywas July 23 2007 9:02 AM EDT

I used a BoTh for a while and at the same time was using a similar NW Morg. I was actually quite surprised at the difference in damage output. Against teams with no damage reduction the Morg was dishing out twice the damage of the BoTh. And more damage means that the built in VA is more valuable/useful/worthwhile.

On the other hand you could buy a Morg and rename it A Blade Of Thuringwethil........ ;)

Talion July 23 2007 9:07 AM EDT

That is not a good reason because the same exact logic applies to the Executioner's Sword compared to the Morgul Hammer.

8DEOTWP July 23 2007 9:08 AM EDT

Of course if you consider base prices than at x50 the Katana may do more damage for the money so:
At 73x2000 a BoTH would be doing 146,000 damage, but it only costs 15,632,180$ to upgrade.
A Katana doing equal damage at 74x1973 would cost 16,758,662$.
1,126,482$ more than a BoTH at the same damage - that is enough to cover the base costs of a BoTH. So at x2000 if you buy it at base you're looking at saving a few bucks for the damage, and you get life-leech.

Talion July 23 2007 9:09 AM EDT

My previous reply was to o Rly's post.

Talion July 23 2007 9:15 AM EDT

Proof with numbers.

With $500,000 using the Blacksmith...

Blade of Thuringwethil: 73x63
Katana: 74x58
Executioner's Sword: 82x60
Morgul Hammer: 84x63

8DEOTWP July 23 2007 9:24 AM EDT

So why does it need a boost?

1) Are you saying just for the sake of order? Since it has more damage output than a Katana, that it should have a higher base damage?

2) Or do you mean a 'deserved boost' as in more damage output?

8DEOTWP July 23 2007 9:29 AM EDT

"The BoTH should have a bigger base modifier than the Katana, just like the Morg has a bigger base damage modifier than the Executioner's Sword."

k.

48Zach July 23 2007 11:07 AM EDT

I wouldn't mind seeing the BoTH getting a boost. The idea of it is very trenchant, with the information provided, and the statistics. It really should do more base damage that the Katana.. As the MH does the Exec.. Make it [76], two higher than the Katana, as the MH is also 2 higher than the exec.

This might make the BoTH more commonly used, as it is 1-handed and could be implemented in different strategies, to overcome penalties.

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] July 23 2007 11:20 AM EDT

Why not reduce the MH ;)

Talion July 23 2007 11:38 AM EDT

I was waiting for that one. Congratulations! That was the $1000 joke of the day...

Talion (Talion v1.0) 69.4.4.164 Rubberduck[T] (pet) $1000 -- The 1000 dollar joke 11:37 AM EDT

Nerevas July 23 2007 8:17 PM EDT

Believe it or not, exec deals more damage than a MH despite having a lower base.

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] July 23 2007 8:21 PM EDT

Really.

Lumpy Koala July 23 2007 8:43 PM EDT

Actually Rubberduck's suggestion makes the best sense :)

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] July 23 2007 9:00 PM EDT

Nerf the ELBs instead, not the MHs.

Talion July 23 2007 9:15 PM EDT

Why would anyone even think of lowering the damage done by the Morg? Increase the damage done by the BoNE and the ELS, but please do suggest lowering the damage done by any existing combat weapon.

It was logical to lower the damage output from the Vorpal Blade because it has reached a point where it was the only logical weapon choice at higher levels.

Now, the only combat weapons I see up there are Morgs and Vorpal Blades. That 100% improvement. Now if other weapons receive a little it of love, the amount of choice could easily double again.

Miandrital July 23 2007 11:09 PM EDT

Reading the wiki can actually be useful at times *wink*

The MH has the second highest base damage (84) of any weapon. It's base damage is 91% of the BoNE. It is a two-handed weapon with built in Vampiric Aura (VA). It is a very popular weapon for a Tank.

The BoTH is the one handed version of the MH. It's base damage (73) is 91% of the ELS. It is a popular weapon for a Light Tank which prefers the built in VA over the additional damage provided by the ELS or the AC/Endurance/Protection reduction of the Vorpal Blade.

Lochnivar July 24 2007 1:52 AM EDT

just out of left field....

Why not remove the dex penalty for the 2-handed weapon and lower the PTH cost for one handed weapons (ie ELS, VB, and BoTH) a corresponding amount?

hit hard or hit often... your choice

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] July 24 2007 2:19 AM EDT

How would getting rid of the DX penalty make you hit harder? Plus it's not very realistic, hitting with a 2h weapon and a shield is much harder than hitting with just the weapon.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 24 2007 4:28 AM EDT

"Reading the wiki can actually be useful at times *wink*

The MH has the second highest base damage (84) of any weapon. It's base damage is 91% of the BoNE. It is a two-handed weapon with built in Vampiric Aura (VA). It is a very popular weapon for a Tank.

The BoTH is the one handed version of the MH. It's base damage (73) is 91% of the ELS. It is a popular weapon for a Light Tank which prefers the built in VA over the additional damage provided by the ELS or the AC/Endurance/Protection reduction of the Vorpal Blade."

Easy, lower the Kat. ;)

Flamey July 24 2007 4:50 AM EDT

ELS/BoNE need a boost, BoTH still has its place. BoTH has cheaper upgrade costs compared to VB. In the long run it would make a lot of difference.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] July 24 2007 6:22 AM EDT

o Rly, have you missed every single explanation that the multiplier doesn't actually multiply?
Yes, a BoTH will always do more damage than a Katana but that's even at the same x, if you had a x50 of each the BoTH will still do more damage.
In future everyone really needs to use real figures as examples, not using the multipliers because they are far from a realistic point.

Flamey July 24 2007 7:08 AM EDT

wait how will a 73x50 do more than 74x50?

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] July 24 2007 7:20 AM EDT

it's part of the rarity of the weapon and the cost of the upgrade, like the ELB compared to Compound each x will increase the damage more.

Flamey July 24 2007 7:28 AM EDT

cost of upgrade doesn't have anything to do with the damage does it? A katana should do more, though it cost more to get there.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] July 24 2007 7:53 AM EDT

Try it, I guarantee a BoTH will do more at the same x

AdminNightStrike July 24 2007 8:38 AM EDT

Want to bet on that?

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] July 24 2007 8:40 AM EDT

Both and MH had damage nerfed. It doesn't reflect the stats.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] July 24 2007 8:40 AM EDT

Zog, I'm sure that was a CB1 misunderstanding.

The NW of a wepaon only influences Damage because it determins how much 'x' the wepaon has.

Maybe there was a mechanic in CB1 where NW took a role in the damage equation, but I'm sure it doesn't in CB2.

;)

Talion July 24 2007 9:01 AM EDT

"The MH has the second highest base damage (84) of any weapon. It's base damage is 91% of the BoNE. It is a two-handed weapon with built in Vampiric Aura (VA). It is a very popular weapon for a Tank.

The BoTH is the one handed version of the MH. It's base damage (73) is 91% of the ELS. It is a popular weapon for a Light Tank which prefers the built in VA over the additional damage provided by the ELS or the AC/Endurance/Protection reduction of the Vorpal Blade."


Miandrital, thanks for shedding light on the origins of the base damage modifiers. However, everyone confabulates that the ELS is heavily underpowered. So setting the base damage of both VA weapons at the same % of the biggest weapon of their respective classes wasn't the right way to do things.

QBRanger July 24 2007 9:25 AM EDT

I think one has to remember is that the top 4 weapons are a holdover, with the damage and inate VA, from CB1.

In CB1 there was no DM, so the ELS and BoNE (Loch in cb1), were very viable weapons due to the fact you could count on your VA working. In fact, the highest NW weapon for the longest time was a Loch.

With DM, this dynamic changed quite a lot. Almost nobody uses VA anymore, with the highest VA only being 500,000. This is the lowest of all the ED spells except for protection.

As many people have posted, myself included, the ROS is just too weak for one to use properly and count on VA working all the time.

Therefore, unless the damage of the ELS or BoNE is increased to disproportionate amounts, I cannot see any real tank using those weapons. The inate, non dispellable VA is too good a bonus to pass up. The VB before its nerfs was the alternative but now is relegated to a specialty type of strategy.

About the post itself, one has to balance the damage of the BoTH vs its better chance to hit. I feel that the damage is fine as it is. As others pointed out, the exec costs more to upgrade, is 2 handed, and does not have inate VA. These 3 properties makes the BoTH a far superior weapon to the exec even with the latters better damage. The better upgrade curve and the inate VA make it superior to the katana even though both are 1 handed.

48Zach July 24 2007 9:28 AM EDT

Very well put Ranger! Bravo

Talion July 24 2007 10:31 AM EDT

Ranger, you yourself wrote in this thread: "... But, as stated, most tanks in the know use a 2h weapon."

I never said that the Katana or the Exec were better than the BoTH. That was never in question. I am saying that the BoTH should have a base damage modifier bigger than the Katana's just like the Morg has a bigger base damage modifier than the Exec. That would give the BoTH a little boost that could prompt more characters to choose it over the Morg because of the better PTH.

Mem July 24 2007 5:22 PM EDT

MiniMem (Trillion) 72.189.74.85 Talion (Talion v1.0) $10000 -- Word of the Day! 5:22 PM EDT
MiniMem (Trillion) 72.189.74.85 MiniZach (Rid3) $10000 -- Word of the Day! 5:21 PM EDT
MiniMem (Trillion) 72.189.74.85 QBRanger (Koyaanisqatsi) $20 -- $20 word award 5:21 PM EDT

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] July 24 2007 6:04 PM EDT

How does the BoTH have better PTH than a Morg?

Adminedyit July 24 2007 6:08 PM EDT

not PTH but base CTH is better since it's 1 handed, 1 handed weapons have (i think) a 50% better base CTH than 2 handed weapons do (i could be wrong.)

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] July 24 2007 7:37 PM EDT

Oh.

AdminNightStrike July 24 2007 7:46 PM EDT

In theory, the base CTH of a 1-handed weapon is 66%, while a 2H weapon is somewhere between 33% and 37%.

Flamey July 25 2007 1:22 AM EDT

Mian said correctly though, that's the reason, it is because it is 91% of the damage of the ELS. You might get people being acrimonious about this and have the MH upped more, which, as other people would agree with me, needs a boost. If this goes through, it will set a precedent of a sort, and every weapon should get a boost.

AdminNightStrike July 25 2007 1:28 AM EDT

whoa, boost the MH? The BNE and ELS are useless items. *THEY* need the boost.

Flamey July 25 2007 1:34 AM EDT

That's what I said!
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