Proposed TOA Change (in General)


AdminNightStrike August 26 2007 10:24 PM EDT

I was speaking with Spork in chat (yes, I was there for a while), and he asked me how much the ToA affected his weapon allowance. Now, we all know that it doesn't....

But what if it did?

The ToA adds PTH, right? And weapon allowance curbs the power of the PTH. What if the ToA's PTH was added to your total weapon NW for purposes of determining the PR added? It would likely increase the PR that the tattoo currently adds, but wouldn't that help? Isn't that the whole issue, that the raw power of the ToA isn't accurately represented by the PR that it adds?

ScY August 26 2007 10:32 PM EDT

This would serve two (or more) purposes:

1. It would serve to nerf the ToA (something people have been asking for quite a bit of late)

2. It would also deal with the problem of ToA archers, and therefore a great deal of the problems people have with the ranged damge being too high.


The only drawback of this suggestion, which by the way i fully support, is that it is the only tattoo to add to the weapon allowance. Now the argument to this is that the ToA is really the only tattoo specifically designed for tanks, so I suppose one can say that it would still be balanced among the tattoos. However this might spurn a bit of a tweak to other tattoos, or a boost of the ToA in terms of DX or ST given.

Great idea Nightstrike!

[RX3]Cotillion August 26 2007 10:38 PM EDT

It sounds like a good idea, but one thing is unclear. Would the ToA have it's own PTH NW's or would it be dynamic in that the NW added would be different on two different minions with different weapons?

AdminNightStrike August 26 2007 10:40 PM EDT

Regarding you point #2, the ToA is the only tattoo that gives you something that falls under the weapon allowance category -- PTH. So I think for that, it's fair.

QBRanger August 26 2007 11:15 PM EDT

So in a similar vein,

Should not items that are junctioned to a familiar add PR as if they were on a minion with that much normal xp?

IE a HOC on a junctioned Steel familiar is more powerful then one just on a simple mage or enchanter.

Let us be exact on everything.

The TOA is just fine IMO. Its PTH is excellent for lower NW characters to maximize their weapons if this is the tattoo they choose.

AdminNightStrike August 26 2007 11:19 PM EDT

"Should not items that are junctioned to a familiar add PR as if they were on a minion with that much normal xp? "

Yes, definitely.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] August 26 2007 11:39 PM EDT

My ToA (or any tat for that matter) already adds a good 350k pr, if it added anymore I think it would be an unfair representation of power in the other direction. Like I said in the other thread, the ToA is not busted, coupling it with MASSIVE NW is. Give the added pth a reduction when the minion wearing it already has a lot of $$$ invested.

Hey, if money were not a problem for me, I'd be all for this change, but there is no way to reasonably keep up with NW of armor and weapons. Heres how CB is from my perspective:

On a great week, where I only work 40 hours I make 1 mil CB after buying all my BA for that week. Now I really would like double the x on both my weapons as well as get them at +150, Stars AC to be 250 when I put my AC on with the MgS, my AoM to be at least +10, EB at +25, etc. Now the cost off all of this is somewhere is the neighbourhood of 75 million CB. Even at a good forge rate I am looking at a whole year from this post until those goals are achieved. Or I can shell out over $500 USD, and hope the bank doesn't mind a bit out of my mortgage this month :D

It's somewhat discouraging.

For your average CBer (which I would consider myself to be), the ToA is a nice way to play a tank without having to get out the wallet.

QBOddBird August 26 2007 11:51 PM EDT

Since you've been playing over a year and adding in your NUB to that time, horseguy, shouldn't you theoretically have more than enough? =P

And I still want a Mage tattoo that automatically adds DD levels, so that I can pop it on a minion with no EXP and make it a main damage dealer as well. Isn't that fair?

Tattoo of Magic lvl 2,000,000 - adds 60% of its level to DD. Nobody would have a problem with that, right? It'd be much less powerful than a ToA, since a ToA adds 50% to ST, 33% to DX, and a large amount of PTH. That's far fewer stat points and 0 Net Worth, and no chance at multiple hits.

This way, the teams who can pop a ToA on a weak minion and have an instant tank damage dealer will get to face teams who pop a ToM on weak minions and face instant mage damage dealers.

So if the ToA is so far from being overpowered, let's make things fair. Give us the ToM, eh?

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] August 27 2007 1:39 AM EDT

Lets not compare apples to oranges here, or get off topic. ToM would be busted, since levels of DD instantly equate to damage, and while never scoring multiple hits, it wont miss either. I don't even want to hear about the damage reduction mages have to face, as it will only steer the conversation away from the ToA. Extra str, dex and pth are nothing without the weapon to go along with it. Give the Space Knights a fight and have a look at how broken my damage is, and how many quad hits I get. The more 20 dx enchanters the better.

I wasted my NUB, my loss I know. That doesn't change the fact that I should not be required to spend USD just to run a tank. Before it gets mentioned, I don't want to take the top spot. I just want to run a moderately successful team that gets positive clan points. I do an ok job of that now, but as far as achieving my goals for CB they are a ways off.

Hey, by your logic the RoS is a mighty tattoo as well, since I can add a minion with no exp, slap on the RoS, and have millions of exp instantly poured into ANY ED spell of my choosing. Not only that, but its even stronger since it can partially resist DM.

Do you see the flaw in that argument? The ToA is far from the insta-win, no brainer tattoo it gets branded as. In another one of the numerous ToA threads, Ranger made a nice list of all the negatives that go along with the ToA, *especially* with weapons that are under 30 mil NW.

noneedforthese August 27 2007 1:39 AM EDT

Man ToM would kick butt.. but 60% sounds a little low.. I mean the current familiars are at 100% tat level, so technically wouldnt' it be just better to have an SF rather than attaching a ToM to a minion? (that is, unless you want to keep your minion count down for some reason). Of course, it'd be a different story to put it on a 4-minion-one-mage team...

lostling August 27 2007 2:51 AM EDT

i think a modification would serve better... make the TOA's NW be based on the weapons already equiped

Wasp [Demon Forging] August 27 2007 2:56 AM EDT

The ToM could give bonuses to HP, magic and maybe grant the wearer a small endurance.

Mikel August 27 2007 7:59 AM EDT

So you are trying to charge a ToA user double the PR, first for the Tattoo itself and second in the WA.

Let us look at my character:
Elb NW: 143.8 mil
Tatto NW: 80.5 mil
Total NW: 224.3

WA: 2.4 mil

I'm still under as far as your request is concerned.
I'd prefer myself not to even use a TOA, but because of Evasion, it's an evil necessity.

ScY August 27 2007 10:11 AM EDT

Mikel, thats a typo I'm sure, there is no way that your Weapon Allowance is 2.4M on King of Pain.

Ancient Anubis August 27 2007 10:29 AM EDT

in regards to the nerf of the ToA i personally would like to c the following change. st gains 40% dx gets 40% and pth gets a bonus of 4% on to an equipped weapons pth or 8% if the ToA is named.

Also iis the current pr for the ToA worked on how much extra exp in st and dx it gives to the wearer cause if u ask me that's what all tats should be based on how much exp is in the tat that's why the RoE doen't change cause its exp goes into the minions exp pool hence increasing the mpr at a rapid rate.

Lumpy Koala August 27 2007 10:46 AM EDT

No, Anubis. You can't even quantify exp for TOE / ROS. And every familiar will need to increase more PR than TOA, because they actually train more than TOA, for example IF / SF / FF trains 125% level effectively. Jig trains even more :P You are nerfing others more than TOA !!! Though I like to see that too, coz IMHO TOA are weak for 90% population that doesn't have enough N/W to make a difference.

I think NS's suggestion is fair. Because it doesn't really nerf anything for the 90% population that has low N/W , but makes a lot of difference for the 10% population that has super N/W. Especially important when you count both ranged and melee weap.

Ancient Anubis August 27 2007 10:52 AM EDT

just a quick clarification i'm refferring to exp used to generate the tattoos level not the spells or what ever it trains so pretty much every 1 mil tat will give the same pr boost except for the RoE

QBOddBird August 27 2007 12:55 PM EDT

Lets not compare apples to oranges here, or get off topic. ToM would be busted, since levels of DD instantly equate to damage, and while never scoring multiple hits, it wont miss either.

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Levels of strength instantly equate to damage, and unless you are facing one of the equally busted Evasions that were improved to face a busted ToA, you hit multiples. Multiples of damage that DD doesn't compare to, if you are using an ELBow or SoD - and generally, if you are using ranged, you are.
--------------------

I don't even want to hear about the damage reduction mages have to face, as it will only steer the conversation away from the ToA. Extra str, dex and pth are nothing without the weapon to go along with it. Give the Space Knights a fight and have a look at how broken my damage is, and how many quad hits I get. The more 20 dx enchanters the better.

----------------------

If you don't want to hear about the damage reduction mages have to face, then I don't want to hear about the PTH reduction that tanks have to face. It's silly to say "we have it all sooo bad but I don't want to hear about what the mages have problems with".

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I wasted my NUB, my loss I know. That doesn't change the fact that I should not be required to spend USD just to run a tank. Before it gets mentioned, I don't want to take the top spot. I just want to run a moderately successful team that gets positive clan points. I do an ok job of that now, but as far as achieving my goals for CB they are a ways off.

-----------------------

If your goals are two weapons with +150 each, as you said, you are asking for a USD tank. I'm sorry, but that's just not within the limits of a purely CBD fund driven tank. Perhaps you've been deluded by the upper limit guys into their beliefs of what a 'normal' weapon should be - but that's not it. And if you waste money, indeed, that's your loss.

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Hey, by your logic the RoS is a mighty tattoo as well, since I can add a minion with no exp, slap on the RoS, and have millions of exp instantly poured into ANY ED spell of my choosing. Not only that, but its even stronger since it can partially resist DM.

----------------------

You are right, the RoS *IS* a powerful tattoo, and against non-DM teams it absolutely owns. The fact that DM can take out experience is what gives it a (killer) flaw. The ToA? Can't remove that experience quite so easily, since you need DOUBLE the ST and DOUBLE the DX in EC in order to negate it.

----------------------

Do you see the flaw in that argument? The ToA is far from the insta-win, no brainer tattoo it gets branded as. In another one of the numerous ToA threads, Ranger made a nice list of all the negatives that go along with the ToA, *especially* with weapons that are under 30 mil NW.

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No, I still fail to see the flaw in that argument. It is STILL an insta-win, no brainer tattoo. It just has an insta-nerf, no brainer counter: Evasion. I believe you should put the ToA to an acceptable power and drop Evasion's added bonuses accordingly. Free ST and DX is fine, but when you pile loads of PTH on top of that....come on, and you say that isn't overpowered? And yet you would complain about a similarly small amount of free DD for mages?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] August 27 2007 1:03 PM EDT

rather think mikel has a WA of 240 mil seeing i got a 60 mil WA.

But back to subject.
Can't you rather add the part of the ToA that actually gives free PTH to the WA?

And why doesn't the spell check know the word wa?
Could an admin please insert it into the dictionary? thank you.

QBRanger August 27 2007 2:00 PM EDT

First,

A mage with a boost to their DD spell still always hits. A tank with a TOA does not always hit. DBs and evasion and super high native dex can even make a TOA tank miss.

Second,

Is there a problem with melee tanks using a TOA? I think not. The problem is in missile rounds. Due to a number of issues:

a) The ungodly damage ELBs do in missile rounds, and the ability to use these uber weapons into melee rounds. One solution is to prevent these ELB users from using only an elb in melee. So what if your doing only 40% damage with 40% chance to hit. 40% of 3M is still 1.2M a hit, about what I do with my MH per hit.

Make it so ELBs do not fire in melee rounds. Let archers need a melee weapon which makes them choose how to divide their Weapon Allowance.

b) The fact evasion is so freaking powerful/broken in missile rounds, one needs to have a TOA with its PTH in order to even hit a decent evasion minion. I have proved that without a TOA, even with a 3.1M effective Ethereal chains, one cannot hit evasion minions. Therefore, one MUST use a TOA. Get rid of the TOA's pth and evasion minions have no counter.

Instead of trying to nerf the TOA, let us try to fix the true problems with CB:

1) Archery is too powerful, dealing far too much damage.
2) Evasion is broken.

Why do we not try to fix these problems before nerfing the TOA. It is, as others stated, the only real way for non USD tanks to compete. And the TOA does have significant negatives previously discussed to make it complicated to use.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 27 2007 2:34 PM EDT

"Get rid of the TOA's pth and evasion minions have no counter."


doesn't the opposite hold true as well, yet you call for an evasion nerf?

AdminQBVerifex [Serenity In Chaos] August 27 2007 2:35 PM EDT

I have a 700k TOA, and while it serves me well, it by no means acts as any kind of super-weapon, far from it. If the TOA also added millions of dollars to my weapon maybe I would think otherwise; TOA just gives a tank a more fighting chance against mages, and not MUCH more of a chance either, it somewhat equalizes things as long as you keep up the NW on your weapons and armor.

Compared to a mage simply having to pump XP into their DD, I think the TOA and the tank in general is still on equal ground.

QBOddBird August 27 2007 2:47 PM EDT



b) The fact evasion is so freaking powerful/broken in missile rounds, one needs to have a TOA with its PTH in order to even hit a decent evasion minion. I have proved that without a TOA, even with a 3.1M effective Ethereal chains, one cannot hit evasion minions. Therefore, one MUST use a TOA. Get rid of the TOA's pth and evasion minions have no counter.

On my old CoC/EC team, I pointed out that even with my enormous EC and your big DBs, some ToA tanks could still hit me! That was all it took to kill me, since I was having to split my EXP on that CoC mage with my HP, and I really didn't have enough to withstand the ranged rounds unless I nuked their ST or evaded them entirely.

So without Evasion, the ToA is unstoppable. But with it, you MUST use a ToA. So we're back to the point I brought up originally - BOTH of them need a reduction. Bring the ToA down some and you can drop Evasion's multipliers also.

QBOddBird August 27 2007 2:48 PM EDT

Exactly, dudemus. Finally, someone else says what I've been practically screaming through the thread.

QBRanger August 27 2007 3:13 PM EDT

C'Mon, are you reading what I typed, or do you just read what you want?

Is the toa unstoppable?

Ask DT (DreadedTiger) if is his character is unstoppable without a huge bow.

Or ask Velvetpickel, the 2 top TOA users who do not have USD elbs.

Unless the TOA user has a uber ELB, the TOA is not unstoppable. TOA minions are very vulnerable to magic, Just ask DT about it.

For those slow on the gun, the TOA is too powerful when combined with archery and the massive damage done by ELB's.

But melee TOA tanks are far from unstoppable.

Read my post yet again to get the jist of it. I presented a few options in place of what we have now.

I am calling for changes to ranged, especially the damage part AND changes to evasion.

And please, pretty please, pretty pretty please, do not take part of what I post and repost it out of context. When I typed "Get rid of the TOA's pth and evasion minions have no counter.", it has to be taken in the ENTIRE context of my post. I typed about BOTH an evasion AND a ranged damage nerf/change. NOT one or the other.

OB restated in one of the last threads that BOTH need a reduction-Certainly!!!

QBOddBird August 27 2007 3:22 PM EDT

And I'm saying that if you nerf Evasion and leave the ToA as is, even reducing ranged damage, that you then have a tattoo that always hits and usually multiples. Are you saying you think it is a <b>good</b>idea to make tanks undodgeable, like mages? Furthermore, they gain the ability to do multiple hits later! Undodgeable + extra hits?

C'mon now.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 27 2007 3:22 PM EDT

so evasion is not broken so much as ranged rounds evasion bonuses?

QBOddBird August 27 2007 3:23 PM EDT

D'oh, forgot to add line breaks and convert it to HTML before I posted it. *grins*

QBOddBird August 27 2007 3:25 PM EDT

Right, dudemus. As I posted before:

"So without Evasion, the ToA is unstoppable. But with it, you MUST use a ToA. So we're back to the point I brought up originally - BOTH of them need a reduction. Bring the ToA down some and you can drop Evasion's multipliers also."

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 27 2007 3:49 PM EDT

i just wanted to clarify as it seems that evasion and pth are two sides of the same coin. the damage issue seems out of line with that. evasion is making something harder to hit, which would be a counter to pth. throwing damage into that mix really only muddies the water in my mind. i am not saying that the unchecked damage is not an issue, i think it is just a different issue than what we are discussing here.

if evasion is "fixed" (which only jon really knows whether it is working as intended or not) and pth is not reduced somehow, then all the ranged weapon users needs is more usd to beat evasion every time. once again usd trumps everything. i really hate to see the game go even moreso in that direction.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] August 27 2007 4:12 PM EDT

Again, look at my damage output, or other damage outputs of users with a ToA of under 40 mil NW. We are far from unstoppable. And this reply you made I take offense to:

then I don't want to hear about the PTH reduction that tanks have to face. It's silly to say "we have it all sooo bad but I don't want to hear about what the mages have problems with".

Search every single one of my posts and find where I posted that, please. In this entire thread, where did I make the silly comment about pth reduction tanks have to face? Oh thats right, I didn't. Like I clearly stated, a ToA is a nice way for people like myself to run a non USD funded tank. If you disagree with me, thats fine by me, but don't redirect my posts and put words in my mouth. Frankly that post of yours makes me look daft and biased, which isn't the case.

Again, would Poison or Sut completely dominate the upper ranks if they switched to a ToA *right* now? You seem to think thats the case. I mean all that free str and pth instantly converting into damage on any minion they want. Oh wait, I guess you need a big weapon to go along with it. The ToA is worthless on a minion without the big weapon to go with it, which you seem to constantly ignore in every one of your replies.

QBRanger August 27 2007 5:55 PM EDT

"so evasion is not broken so much as ranged rounds evasion bonuses?"

Exactly, have you not read my posts about it?

Evasion in melee rounds works just fine.

Due to the "all or nothing" type of damage ELB's do in missile, evasion has been made quite powerful in missile rounds, too powerful.

The problems are not just the TOAs pth, but the fact that you hit with them for so much damage in missile rounds. Evasion HAS to be too powerful so that anything other then a TOA will miss.

One cannot separate the TOA pth issue from the ELB damage issue from the evasion issue, They are all related.

Again, is there any problem with TOA tanks in melee? Anyone?

Mikel August 27 2007 6:26 PM EDT

Elb NW: 143.8 mil
Tatto NW: 80.5 mil
Total NW: 224.3

WA: 2.3 mil <------ Updated

Even though I was off just a bit, I'm still under.

I don't always hit Joe (Sut's Minion) in Round 1, and I have the ToA+WPTH+Massive dex strategy going.

So yes, if you nerf the ToA, then you need to bring Evasion down as well.

QBOddBird August 27 2007 6:33 PM EDT

Horseguy, I was not putting words in your mouth by any means; you simply took part of my post and took offense to it. I was directing that part of the post at this statement, which I was quoting:

"I don't even want to hear about the damage reduction mages have to face"

to which I stated:

"then I don't want to hear about the PTH reduction that tanks have to face. It's silly to say "we have it all sooo bad but I don't want to hear about what the mages have problems with". "

and yes, it IS biased to say that you don't want to hear about the mages' problems in this area whilst complaining about those of tanks and defending an exclusively tank-boosting item. Sorry if you felt offended, but that portion of the argument was perfectly just.

QBOddBird August 27 2007 6:36 PM EDT

I agree with you exactly, Ranger, in your 5:55 post. All 3 issues are interconnected, and all 3 need to be addressed. And yes, it is the Evasion ranged bonuses that are posing the problem - I don't recall anyone *ever* complaining about Evasion being a big deal before the bonuses, nor anyone complaining about Evasion during melee (which is equal to Evasion pre-boost).

I think probably everyone in this thread could agree with that post. Ranged damage is too big, and if you drop ToA PTH you'd sure as heck better be knocking down Evasion bonuses with it so that anyone has a chance to hit them.

Finally, agreement. ^_^

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 27 2007 6:37 PM EDT

Question.

Is 'Evasion with Ranged bonuses' versus 'Ranged attack PTH' fine?

That's what everyone seems to be comparing. If the PTH on a ToA is nerfed, then Ranged Evasion needs to be nerfed to let Ranged hit....

How about Melee ToA PTH versus Evasion with no bonuses? Is that fine? Does Melee Evasion - PTH and Defensive Dex stack up to ToA Offensive Dex + PTH + Weapon PTH?

As for the original post, PTH is NW only. Everything that grants PTH should be held under the (already overly massive) WA. If you want, make it a buff to the ToA by reducing the PR it increases by transfering some of it to the WA.

But then lower the WA to reasonable levels....

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 27 2007 6:42 PM EDT

i too think that all 3 of the issues need to be addressed simultaneously. if you change any one or two of the variables then i believe a greater imbalance will be introduced though.

horseguy001 [Battle Royale] August 27 2007 9:09 PM EDT

OB, that comment was made since this is a ToA thread, anything to do with mages would be off topic. However, putting our urinating contest on hold and looking at some good ideas in this thread:

It would be a very tricky balance to adjust evasion/damage/pth (which are all part of the problem) to make things better then they are now. I think the biggest problem of all weapons is the fact that the x can be pumped forever. Say you cut ranged damage by 90%, and completely nerfed evasion multipliers, making it easier to hit but do very little damage. Within a few months of investment in the x of your weapon, damage would be right back up there again.

Any way you slice it, investing in the NW of the x will always bring damage back up to OHKO levels. Which begs the question: what is a fair way to handle this problem? The only way would be to make it impossible to hit in range, but then you totally nerf the archer strat, which I don't think would be any better for the game.

Perhaps its time to go back to the old system of weapon damage, where there was a theoretical limit to just how much damage a weapon could put out. In the current system, cutting damage would only be a band-aid fix for a little while, as a few hundred USD would quickly remedy the problem.

QBsutekh137 August 27 2007 9:11 PM EDT

I would be awful with a ToA. Just check my NW.

I would also be awful with a ToE. Again, check my NW (no Wall, and no viable tank component could be afforded).

I actually think the ToE is far, far, far more over-powered than the ToA, but I would obviously love to see both taken down, as mage. Here's why:

The ToA: Ranger has that one covered. Ranged damage is too much. I would LOVE to get hit more, but for lower damage. But that is not a choice right now. I get hit for 2 million+ and die, or don't get hit at all. That totally determines my fight list vs. tanks. I think that's dumb. That makes everything go to the whole Evasion vs. ToA/pth/NW argument. If the ToA hit as much, but for less damage, the battles would have a bit of attrition involved instead of pure, binary on-offedness. We already have a mini-game in CB called "dexterity" that covers that on/off. Evasion takes that game, makes it even larger, and about forty-seven times as stupid (in my ever-so-humble opinion). So, reduce ranged damage, and then the Evasion ranged multipliers can be brought down. people will actually have to worry about round dynamics again instead of just count minions 1-2-3-4 and out. For a time, it seemed the HoC was a fix to this, but now the HoC just takes everything to a higher level for both mages and tanks. Not much help there.

The ToE: The ToE makes most points moot because it plays the damage reduction game. It also plays the damage reduction game with an "overwhelm" aspect. If you don't "overwhelm" the ToE, you aren't doing any appreciable damage (at least not as a mage). Why Jonathan made this aspect a more on/off scheme is beyond me. Like the Evasion issue, the on-off stuff is incredibly frustrating. It can allow for one item or one tattoo to change the strategy for everything. Add in some PL, AC, TSA, and VA to an underwhelmed ToE, and you have beaten any offense that can't get over that hump. hell, at that point you're manufacturing hit points. The reason I especially hate it as a mage? The fact that mages have to fight through yet another blessed damage reduction layer -- magic-specific armor. The MgS and EH have no tank-busting counterpart, so what is a mage left to do? Nothing. A mage can be as big as he or she wants, and they aren't going to overwhelm large ToEs and the PL/AC/TSA/MgS/VA juggernaut. Decay? Tried it. No luck because it can't kill the front minions. Add in some spreadfire? Well, just exactly how many mages do you think I have? *smile* Besides, fire won't work since waiting for Decay will also result in roasting your own team. That leaves trying to use some sort of CoC/ToE/Decay team. That might not be a bad idea. But that falls squarely in the "can't beat 'em join 'em", having to use a ToE, which is the biggest choice-killer there is.

So, let's bring it all together. If you reduce ranged damage, then ToEs will be even HARDER to overwhelm. If you reduce ToAs, then they won't be able to hit anything. And if you reduce Evasion, any team without a ToE is screwed, because it is hard to reduce damage except in the case of not getting hit at all.

Here's the point where people see three pseudo-exclusive statements and say, "Great! It's wonderful rock/paper/scissors! Huzzah!" I think it's more like wrecked/poopie/stupid. Three things gone wrong, mainly because of the strictly binary nature of some choices. Choice should be continuous and tweakable, not discrete and insurmountable.

To that end, I up the "things that need doin'" to THREE:

-- Reduce ranged physical damage.
-- Reduce Evasion multipliers.
-- Reduce ToE, hopefully doing away with its damnable "underwhelm" indestructibility.

And yep, I am fully aware that two of the above don't affect me, and even the Evasion change might be a wash with as big as mine is. "Sutekh, you horse's butt -- you just want to dominate!" Nope. If any of the changes above lead to me beating a higher net number of people than I currently can, then more changes need to be done. I don't feel I should dominate anything given my miniscule net worth.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 27 2007 9:30 PM EDT

i to believe that the linear damage change was most likely a mistake. i also think maybe the curve was too steep before though. i have wondered what it would by like with a stair-stepped damage curve. in effect each 100 (or smaller) increments of x's would cost a fixed amount, then the next 100 would cost twice as much or some such. that way it does get harder to keep going up.

Ancient Anubis August 28 2007 5:42 AM EDT

i would like tattoos to be totally redone. Do a way with familars and the others and introduce some brand new ones. In my eyes the point of tats is to give a boost to a character minion (s). I reckon tats should be limited to boosting stats only eg, a tat for ST and DX for tanks, Magic spell power so boost to dd spells, and tats to boost EO and ED spells.

In regards to this i think each minion should be allowed to wear a tat along with all other armour. Since i can't really explain this next bit i'll just do a example.

Max tatto level of 2,000,000. Each tat can grow to one quarter of this eg tat 1 -500,000, tat 2 500,000 etc.

20% of the tats level is the bonus added to stats eg. a ToA at 500k level would give a minion 10% on st and dx of the tats level

500k x .1 = 50k bonus added to st and dx

or for s DD spell tat it would add a full 20% or 100,000 on to the minion dd spell.

I reckon this system would bring tats to being just another useful item rather than a crtical need and would provide a more equal balnce among teams than we currently have. Oh and i also believe evasion needs to be evaluated in regards to its strength

QBsutekh137 August 28 2007 10:00 AM EDT

So that re-work would do away with auras? If that is the case, I am ALL for it. Auras are awful.

Ancient Anubis August 28 2007 10:03 AM EDT

yes no auras as each minion would have a tat that would only affect itself

QBRanger August 28 2007 10:10 AM EDT

Get rid of auras and the TOE and RBF become useless on most teams.

We will then see every tank using a TOA or using a familiar.

Ancient Anubis August 28 2007 10:20 AM EDT

read my post which the reference about auras goes with. There are no familars or other tats like the ToE or RBF in my new idea for tats.

QBsutekh137 August 28 2007 10:35 AM EDT

Now who isn't reading the whole context? *smile* AA's idea would do away with auras because each minion could have a tattoo.

Also, just because auras would go away wouldn't mean other changes couldn't be made to compensate. Just because a new situation is hard to imagine doesn't mean the current situation is perfect and in no need of changes. I am pretty sure I have received direct correspondence from you to the effect of, "Yes, ToEs are overpowered". So, what is your idea on how to alleviate that? Doing away with auras is just one of many ideas...

Tezmac August 28 2007 10:43 AM EDT

"'Great! It's wonderful rock/paper/scissors! Huzzah!' I think it's more like wrecked/poopie/stupid. Three things gone wrong, mainly because of the strictly binary nature of some choices. Choice should be continuous and tweakable, not discrete and insurmountable. "

Ah, yet again, you're my hero. Why I sold my character? Because the odds of Jon fixing this game are pretty small in my opinion.

Ancient Anubis August 28 2007 10:44 AM EDT

and also with my idea u can sill equip all armour which will compensate for the removing of endurance as u can protect yourself with shields and body armour

QBOddBird August 28 2007 12:12 PM EDT

*shrugs* The ToE is just a small part of the problem with damage reduction. This is the ONLY game I've ever heard of where it is even thinkable to completely eradicate damage (the 477 AC barrier). And if you bring up the Vorpal Blade, that's just another choice limitation...

damage reduction is crazy
ranged damage is too powerful
there's multiple make-it-or-break-it factors
we have useless tattoos
we have a bonus that sucks money and doesn't do its job
forging needs help
some items have been made practical necessities (HOC)


we need a changeyear, not a changemonth

QBRanger August 28 2007 12:16 PM EDT

Yes, I misread the post or just read what I wanted to.

Having a "tattoo" for each minion would be nice, but not overly powerful?

But the odds of things changing that drastically are slim to none and slim already left town.

QBsutekh137 August 28 2007 12:37 PM EDT

OOB, I agree, it is not just the ToE, but the layers it can become a part of. There are too many layers in succession to eradicate damage, and I am not even sure these are in the right order:

MgS/EH (magic stopping only)
ToE (or more generically, endurance -- Dix's ToJ is TOUGH!)
AC
Protection (probably OK, since DM nerfs it)

and then all the conserve/leech/regen aspects:

PL
TSA
VA (if it were only an enchant, I would be OK with that).

Now, there are things that leech a tank, too: specialty xbows. But those are useless for a mage team. Unless you have millions to invest in PTH, you aren't ever going to hit an opposing tank, and even then, you might hit for no damage (meaning no effect). The MgS and the EH are the most one-sided damage reduction items in the game. Throw in all the other means of damage reduction and HP conservation/regeneration and mage damage becomes a joke. Even a lot of tank damage becomes a joke except for massive ranged blows.

Note: I did not include AMF on my mage-buster list because AMF DOES have a tank-busing counterpart in the form of EC.

And Ranger, I agree with you too... I seriously doubt a total tattoo revamp is going to happen at this point...

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] August 28 2007 12:40 PM EDT

the tattoo per minion idea would seem to benefit multi-minion teams more than solo or partials. cb2, as opposed to the first iteration, already seems to require more than one minion so i would hate to see that trend exacerbated.

ScY August 28 2007 12:42 PM EDT

The tattoo per minion idea:

My four minion team has 4 RoEs --- now look, I gain mpr 320% faster!

Ancient Anubis August 28 2007 7:06 PM EDT

like i said all current tats would be removed including RoE. Most people will say u need to build other tats anyway and the ncb and nub bonus should be used to get new characters up there without the need for a RoE.

Ancient Anubis August 28 2007 7:10 PM EDT

by the way in regards to long range damage isn't the problem most to deal with the over powering of BGs. I mean my BGs are +14 and that equates to a 42% increase in ranged damage. U want to reduce ranged damage bring that bonus down to 2 most likely even 1. And since evasion and ToA go hand in hand meaning u alter one u have to alter the other as well might as well just leave them be.

Mikel August 28 2007 11:52 PM EDT

If you knock down the BG's Damage, better lower the ToE. Otherwise you won't be able to beat a good TSA/PL high AC team.

QBOddBird August 28 2007 11:55 PM EDT

Sutekh, you horse's butt -- you just want to dominate!

48Zach August 28 2007 11:57 PM EDT

How about a tattoo or armor peice that lets DD spells leech life??

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] August 29 2007 1:28 AM EDT

AA - how is evasion fair to tanks that don't use a ToA?

Lumpy Koala August 29 2007 2:23 AM EDT

come on, you all know it's time for CB3 :)

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] August 29 2007 4:22 AM EDT

Or the dreaded 'R' words. ;)

Rescale or Reset.

QBJohnnywas August 29 2007 4:46 AM EDT

Still bullying the ToA I see.

I firmly believe that it isn't the ToA that's the problem where tanks are concerned. That bonus PTH helps anybody play a tank, especially since the change to the cost of the X. And as far as I'm concerned that's a good thing; it stops tanks being the domain of the USD spender.

But they certainly don't make one unstoppable. The interaction with your weapons and xp can help make you tough, and it makes life a lot easier if you're lazy like me.

And, if they really are that overpowered, why doesn't everyone run down that particular route? I've seen far more ToE tank teams and RoE tank teams starting up over the course of this past year, since ranged was changed. (Nice poetry there....).

The talk still turns to how overpowered ranged is, but it's the same old song really; USD spend is the only overpowered thing in CB. Pity Jon trying to balance things out when that skews everything.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002CWA">Proposed TOA Change</a>