NCB, Lower BA cost, or increase money rewards? (in General)


DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 4 2007 5:50 AM EDT

Well here we go, we come down to it. Now that Nub has no BA cost during the whole term of a nub's existence why can't an NCB? What has to happen to fix the NCB from not getting screwed over so badly?

Lets go in depth...

The Nub gets a higher Money rewards but the NCB does not.
The Nub gets free BA while the NCB pays increased BA costs.
They both get the same Experience rewards.

Why is it so different between the two?

So considering the NCB does not get higher money rewards why do they have to pay increased BA costs? Why does the Nub get free BA while still getting increased money rewards? Why not balance this issue out by either reducing the BA cost for NCB, Making it Free for NCB (while reducing the money rewards if it comes down to it), or just flat out increase the money rewards for NCB like the Nub (Unlikely to happen cause I can see how this could raise inflation in the economy more so than it is already)?

So I would love to hear everyone's comments about this, especially coming from Mikel and Freed who have gone through quite a few upper level NCB with the cost as it is. How do you feel about it and what would you like done to it? Flame me if you will, but, if you personally attack me I will ask that your post be removed from my thread and that you are forum banned for a few days.

Now get to posting folks ^_~

1 MINUTE 1 October 4 2007 5:56 AM EDT

Because NCB's should know what they are doing when they create a a new character and they would just simply make ncb after ncb to get cp's and cash.

Drakon(DS) [Guardian Bros Inc] October 4 2007 5:56 AM EDT

i think the main argument is that people how start a NCB have money but that ain't always true

i don't think 'free' ba isn't the way to go but rather have it cost the norm for that mpr but not increased

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 4 2007 6:01 AM EDT

Exactly what I was thinking Drakon. Reduce the cost and make it back to normal cost where you can squeak by if you use and buy all BA everyday. Why should NCB be screwed over two fold when it comes to BA cost, etc...

Drakon(DS) [Guardian Bros Inc] October 4 2007 6:11 AM EDT

well its not getting screwed over per say but being 'miss guided' based on the thought we got 25m for a ncb lol just like we got 20m for a huge morg

QBJohnnywas October 4 2007 6:12 AM EDT

I started my current char about two months before the change to BA refresh. During the first two months I was hitting about 80% of normal BA, and after the change I was getting 100% of it.

I never bought BA because I didn't have any money put by (because I was straight out of an NCB where I did buy BA) and any funds I was making were going straight into either a tattoo insta deal I had going on with Barzoo (lots of cash, biggest spend I've ever done) or into upgrading my weapon. I could have run a mage team and had lots of spare cash, but hey I like tanks!

The result of lots of playing, but no bought BA left me with a char at the end of my NCB of about 950k MPR. Ok, you could say run a mage team; do some clever buying and selling; or buy some CB$ with USD. But where does that leave players who want to run a competitive tank team as an NCB but don't have lots of funds, or lots of items? Like me?

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 4 2007 6:16 AM EDT

Well the price on normal teams has actually increased a lot recently. Just think... a 2.2 mil mpr team just sold for 40 mil... but not too long ago a 2+ mil team sold for 15 mil. Its all due to the influx of cash into the game, and how much more one person is willing to pay over another... but I digress.

Its more the fact that the NCB doesn't get more cash rewards yet gets more increased cost for BA. It would be nice to even it up more so you don't have to have a good 20 mil to start a good NCB just to break into the top 50.

Lumpy Koala October 4 2007 6:27 AM EDT

People pay 40mil for 2.2mil char because that's the amount of money you will need to waste in buying BA to reach 2.2mil using a NCB char after 4 months. And actually you would probably waste more than 40mil if you buy every single BA on a NCB for 4 months.

Assume average purchasable BA per day = 400
Assume average BA cost per BA = 1500 (could be more, I dont' know)

So total spending = 4*30*400*1500 = 72mil

Rubberduck[T] [Hell Blenders] October 4 2007 6:31 AM EDT

Those prices reflected the fact that everyone finally realized how low the n*b was. Coupled with difficulty in hitting up after about 1M mpr it was difficult getting anywhere near the top with it. Now it is fixed prices will likely drop.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 4 2007 6:53 AM EDT

I bought up the double hit that NCB takes on this ages ago.

The responce from jon was that it was a 'tax' for those wanting to start over.

Wasp [Demon Forging] October 4 2007 7:25 AM EDT

A tax for people wanting to start over? What a load of... Anyhow. The NCB is a crucial feature of CB2. It allows current players to keep on playing, IE avoids the state of boredom you get if you play for a long time. Why should people who want a change get penalised? They should get free BA which gives them nothing in terms of money. This would allow them to grow at a better rate, yet avoid the 15 million cost of buying BA, which some people just can't afford. Normal BA would offer them the current money rewards, extra BA, which is free, gives no money rewards.

This would avoid abuse getting an NCB for financial gain, and allows more players to take on an NCB without fear of becoming skint.

Current players need diversity, new players thrive on diversity and a constant challange. The top 15 needs new blood, blood that older players could be able to provide. Or should we penalise them instead... this seems to be the usual route.

Zoglog[T] [big bucks] October 4 2007 7:28 AM EDT

I wholeheartedly agree with it too.
If you wasted your first attempt then that's your fault (RL issues may not always be caused by you but everyone has an idea of how often they'll be away).
The main point though is that you already have big equipment, the tattoo being the biggest advantage. It takes a fairly long time for an NUB to even get a lesser, let alone a full one.
Most who aren't an NUB have an RoE lying around or if not a huge tattoo, you start an NCB and either have an extra boost to exp over NUB or a tattoo which constantly operates at MTL.
Yes, equipment you already hold would add a lot of PR but it isn't needed straight away and then you already have nicely upgraded items when you reach a reasonable level.
Finally, to be brutally honest, if you aren't willing to spend the time to save up that extra cash you'll need then do you even deserve to get anywhere with your NCB? You want the same result with half the work IMHO.

Kong Ming October 4 2007 7:29 AM EDT

I have to admit hitting a high MPR via the NCB is really tough unless you have all the gears you need and tons of cash. If Jon really wants more competition at the top, he should really consider either lowering the cost of BA or do something realistic. The only BA I buy these days are only during crazy experience time and it is financed by an entire week of earnings just to buy them.

Wasp [Demon Forging] October 4 2007 7:48 AM EDT

Zog, so only people who screwed up their NUB use the NCB? NCB are more for people with ambition, those who want to entertain the top 10, not the top 50.

Talion October 4 2007 7:57 AM EDT

I think current BA price for NCB's is just fine.

I prepared for over a year to start my current NCB and be able to purchase all the BA I need.

Anyone who takes time to prepare should not have any problem with NCB BA cost.

Reaching the top ranks should not be easy at all. It should simply be possible.

I don't expect to catch up to the top players with my current NCB because I predict I will only spend about 75% to 85% of the BA available during the NCB time. However, it will not be because I was not well prepared.

Flamey October 4 2007 8:13 AM EDT

Do a few NCBs without buying BA and see how much money you have after that. You'll see quite a bit of cash, of course your characters wont be something big, but at least its different and a change.

Tyriel [123456789] October 4 2007 8:18 AM EDT

"Do a few NCBs without buying BA and see how much money you have after that. You'll see quite a bit of cash, of course your characters wont be something big, but at least its different and a change."

I've been doing that since I returned to CB (which was probably about a year ago? Not really too sure), and all I've gotten is enough $$ for the BA on one NCB, and some small pieces of equipment.

Granted, I haven't been using all my BA or anything, but my $12m and equipment doesn't really mean as much when all I get for it is an NCB that has a CHANCE, if I spend all, or almost all, of my BA (which I can't do with school) every single day.

Flamey October 4 2007 8:23 AM EDT

even with the BA change?

Talion October 4 2007 8:29 AM EDT

Tyriel, you have a 30K MPR after 5 days of NCB. By my calculations,you probably haven't even spent 50% of the BA available to you. Even if BA was cheaper, you still would have no chance at that rate.

Tyriel [123456789] October 4 2007 8:32 AM EDT

Even with the BA change, with school, sport, homework, tests, vacation, sleep, etc. I cannot burn all my BA. I can only get in two or three full sets of BA in a day at 10/20.

I guess a year is about accurate, since I've made 3 NCB's since then. I was away for almost two months on vacation, too busy some days to use all the BA I would normally be able to use...

If it gives you any indicator of how much BA I spend, my NCB is on track for only ~800k MPR, if even that.

Even still, if a fairly normal person, like me, can't afford to spend all their money on NCB BA, then how are we supposed to compete?

If I spend my money on equipment, I can do well down lower, but I will never make it up higher without spending another year (and more) getting the money necessary for a high MPR character. If I spend it on a character, then I don't have the equipment to compete up higher. Either I'm a mage, or a tank with just a weapon.

Yeah, a 1.5m $5m NW character is exactly what I want.

*waits for somebody to come along and suggest a loan so I can laugh at them*

Tyriel [123456789] October 4 2007 8:40 AM EDT

So, what? I'm an aberration in CB, and I shouldn't be able to compete because I can't spend enough time playing to buy a high character or make one myself?

Just because I wasn't here for my NUB, I should just be ignored? Is that how it'll work?

I never usually have much to say, but if a normal person like me can't compete (like the NCB is SUPPOSED to let us do), then what should we do? Forgo our extracurricular activities? Spend less time on homework? Stop taking advanced courses? Spend less time on vacation with our families? Spend less time sleeping, or wake up in the middle of the night just to burn BA?.

Sorry, but that isn't happening.

Also, if I've spend 50% of my BA, should I not reach 50% of the top MPR? Isn't that how it's supposed to work? But 30k every 5 days will only take me to 800k MPR (taking into account, roughly, what I think will be an increase because of lower BA rate, and being able to spend more).

Whatever. That's my tirade for this morning.

Talion October 4 2007 9:01 AM EDT

"Even still, if a fairly normal person, like me, can't afford to spend all their money on NCB BA, then how are we supposed to compete?"

I have a full time job, 3 kids under 6 years old, I do sports, I go out, I take care of my house, I cook meals, and I do lots and lots of other things on top of that. I also consider myself a normal person and I am not complaining.

"So, what? I'm an aberration in CB, and I shouldn't be able to compete because I can't spend enough time playing to buy a high character or make one myself?"

I think you are an average player. You should concentrate on competing against characters with similar PR to yours. That is what CB is truly about in my opinion.

Those that truly dedicate themselves to the game and are ready to actually spend money to make their characters better are the ones that truly deserve the top spot. I think you will never find a game that lets people who can't truly dedicate themselves to it win the top spot.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 4 2007 10:07 AM EDT

tyriel, when you left cb did you sell out? if you did sell out, how much did you get?

AdminJonathan October 4 2007 10:36 AM EDT

> Now that Nub has no BA cost during the whole term of a nub's existence why can't an NCB?

The NUB BA cost was taken out of its money award. If we did that to the NCB the award would become negative. :)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] October 4 2007 10:52 AM EDT

The NCB cost is to reflect what a January first char who bought all BA (PoisoN's NWO) would have spent on BA. Anything less would be completely unfair.

Dark Dreky October 4 2007 10:58 AM EDT

Lower money rewards even further. The change to free BA was good, but there is still an apparent population of "superNUB's" that seem to be taking advantage of this....

Relic October 4 2007 11:12 AM EDT

My BA cost atm is 1,150 per BA. I am only around 70K MPR. I think it is absolutely silly to pay for BA at that price it would cost me almost 400K CB2 to purchase only one day of full BA. I am getting just about 100% bonus per battle and am only bringing in around $250 CB2 per battle, so if I were to purchase full BA and burn it at the most effective bonus rate possible I am still upside down $800 CB2 per BA used on average.

So at a 360 (amount of BA I can purchase daily currently) * 800 CB2, that is 288K CB2.

A 288K loss daily amounts to 34.56 million CB2 needed to buy full BA during your NCB period. Now keep in mind the amount you can buy decreases and the price increases and the amount you gain will go down as your fightlist pool decreases, so things will only get worse for me in regard to being upside down.

On another note, I am not burning full BA daily, but I am fighting quite a bit imo and I am only gaining around 7 to 8k MPR daily. So, by my calculations I will only reach 1 mil MPR by the end of my NCB even with the recent tweak to the N*B percentages.

sooka October 4 2007 11:26 AM EDT

ha! I thought NCB's got free BA, I'm screwed.

Mem October 4 2007 11:27 AM EDT

Being currently in the depths of an NCB I feel it necessary to chime in. I agree with Zoglog here. If you're not prepared to take on the challenges that an NCB gives, which I believe should be equal to the amount it would have taken you to get wherever it is you finish up were you not to have a bonus, then don't even bother. That said, with the change to the bonus % of the N*B, the NCB has come to be even harder than it was previously. I estimate a 68% increase in the cost of BA (before I was at ~1650, now it's at 2419). That's an awfully steep cost, and it means that 40 mil isn't near enough to buy all the BA in those 4 months. I just passed 1 mil MPR, and my BA cost is 696,672 per day (2419*288), and rising. If it were to stay at that rate I'd be spending a total of 38,316,960 (55 days*696,672 per day). That's only in my final 55 days. BA was raised too high with the increase to the NCB. I'd say a decrease in the range of 33-45% would be sufficient to simulate that effort that a player without a bonus would make. I've only got enough money for 11.5 more days' BA...

So, yes, BA should cost money for NCBs, if only for the fact that they have the knowledge and the equipment already at their start, but that BA cost shouldn't be quite as outrageous as it is. Lower the cost of NCB BA, Jon!

QBRanger October 4 2007 11:45 AM EDT

I personally believe now, with the high MPR's out there, and the very high cost of BA for NCBs, the NCB BA should cost normal amounts.

That would give people a realistic chance to develop another character and have a chance to get near the top ranks.

One would still have to buy BA every day, which is not cheap, in order to do so.

Using Koy as an example, after buying BA and ammo, I only make about 50-75k a day profit from fighting.

I cannot imagine someone who does not use USD having a realistic chance to reach the top ranks using a NCB. Even if they started to play in Jan 05, there is no realistic way they would have saved 30M CB2 to use it all to make a NCB.

I know I was against the N*B from the beginning, but as the game progresses, new blood/characters, are certainly needed near the top ranks to keep the game interesting. And to keep players who are floundering in the middle/lower ranks interested to realistically have a chance to progress forward.

But, this is just my opinion and does not matter much.

sooka October 4 2007 11:51 AM EDT

How would NCBs gettng free BA be any different than the free retrains i've read about before, and seen requested now? Through the course of my NUB I was learning about the game, things I was doing wrong... some things really late in the process (like using my BA during $ bonus time instead of EXP). I also was developing an idea of what I wanted to try when I started a NCB and was going to give a real shot into growing a character. To learn it will cost 30+ million bucks... wow

"Users whose New User Bonus has expired may apply for a similar Character Bonus that applies to only one character at a time. The Character Bonus only affects XP gained in battle.)" When I read that, I thought the same rules applied to NCB as NUB except you don't get bonus buckaroos. I don't think it's that "similar" after seeing the cost involved *wink*

sooka October 4 2007 11:53 AM EDT

and I'm not proposing "free BA for NCBs" ... normal cost would be fair , but it was kind of misleading for me at least, to say the least.... please say it isn't yeast.

Talion October 4 2007 12:07 PM EDT

Based on my current fight rewards, I make about $625 per fight and my BA costs just over $1,500.

I spend about 500 accumulated BA per day and I buy all 324 available BA.

So, if I calculate...

(824 * $625) - (324 * $1500) = $29,000

So I make a profit of about $30K per day during my NCB. If you lower the price of BA by more than half, I will be rich.

So why am I complaining? Please lower BA cost to normal value so I can add $50M to my NW during the NCB!

Mem October 4 2007 12:37 PM EDT

Talion, the time in which you're going to be making money is fleeting. Don't expect it to last long.

Talion October 4 2007 1:07 PM EDT

Mem, I will keep that warning in mind.

The way I planned things for this NCB, I will be ok if the following equation is true:

(Challenged BA * Cash Rewards) - (BA cost) > - $1M per NCB week

So far the equation is holding up just fine.

Wasp [Demon Forging] October 4 2007 1:36 PM EDT

> Now that Nub has no BA cost during the whole term of a nub's existence why can't an NCB?

The NUB BA cost was taken out of its money award. If we did that to the NCB the award would become negative. :)

What about forging? Obviously the forging "award" was not fixed, hence why NUB forgers are forging more in 2 days then a normal forger can do in a week.

Eurynome Bartleby [Bartleby's] October 4 2007 2:41 PM EDT

I was breaking even and making profit up till the second half of my NCB. From there, it's all downhill, and you won't make any dough from buying all your BA, I am almost 100% certain.

Mem October 4 2007 3:15 PM EDT

Well unless you're making 3,876,704 CB a week, you won't make it when you hit 1 mil MPR, Talion. Unless my BA costs are skewed because the increase in the bonus didn't take effect until nearly two months into my NCB. In that case, your BA cost won't reach that high, but it will still be higher than what I had to pay at the same point in my NCB, and I'm certain it will rise at an even faster rate. That said, good luck to you. I hope you can attain your goal.

QBRanger October 4 2007 3:22 PM EDT

Wasp is 100% correct in his point.

NUB forgers, with the free NUB BA are forging well over 1.5M a day. Unheard of even with 4+M MPR forgers back in CB1.

But, in any event, one can make some money early in the NCB if you can fight high with a 100% challenge bonus. However, as one gets to about 500k MPR, the challenge bonus quickly vanishes and the monetary rewards go down.

This is the time where it becomes prohibitively expensive for non USB players to purchase NCB BA.

I do not think anyone is asking for free NCB BA, just a normal cost to help everyone have a decent chance to develop a nice MPR character.

AdminLamuness October 4 2007 3:37 PM EDT

I believe the current state of NCB is fine the way it is.

Was the NCB made to compete with the NUB?

Godpanda October 4 2007 3:51 PM EDT

Well... I like this thread. A-lot of good stuff getting thrown around. So... Where do I stand on this rather touchy issue?

Okay. It seems to me there are two groups the majority of changes tend to be focused around by Jon. Mainly, new players. This is a good thing though. Jon wants more players. A game that draws them in and makes them feel like they have a chance will do a better job.

But Jon can't really ignore the market controlling players. So he tends to give changes that the very largest of characters, the most hardcore players, feel most acutely. Look at the recent ToA changes, archery changes. These changes affect the upper levels the most acutely. This isn't really wrong either, though. A-lot of these players contribute hugely to CB, are active and vocal (the better to get their ideas heard), and Jon doesn't want to LOSE players.

But, I feel the players in the middle, the ones the lack NUB or major NCB (major being an NCB with the pre-existing cash to buy all your BA AND use it) are completely ignored. Players, yes, like me.

I can't afford a NCB. I won't probably be able to ever really run one, either. I won't spend USD on this game, if I can possibly help it. I CAN'T burn every one of my BA. I go to bed at 3 in the morning and wake up normally before 8, but I have a life, and sometimes I just won't be able to get on in time. So, from what I can tell, here is what will happen.

The top few player's MPR will rise faster than mine for pretty much ever. Even if Ranger quit (I'll hurt you if you do), there will be another top player gaining as fast. Eventually I will dip back down to 8 BA refresh, missing more BA. Then 9.

Eventually, the current system won't work at all. Even if you raise N*B to EQUAL the MPR of the top character, it won't be possible. One day would make a huge difference. What happens when Ranger hits 4 mil MPR? 5? If you use 90% of your BA, you will fall 200000 MPR short of him. And you most certainly won't have the NW.

I'm not saying anything except for the current system is flawed. It won't work. You can hope and ignore it all you want, but characters are too large.


And the best part is? I'll be running with a max challenge bonus of 5%, and a 1.27 mil MPR character with no bonus and no hope of NCB. Why? Because I'll miss a day or two on my NCB. College comes first. And how can I collect 30 mil CB? You say just wait a year or two? That makes no sense. I need a NCB TO MAKE MONEY. To get stronger. I need a larger character so that I can get out of the penalty to Challenge Bonus realm, but I can't do that because I AM penalized. It's a loop I'm stuck in (This is without mentioning I have 40 mil NW and I need double that if I want to start hitting characters I should be beating). And I'm betting quite a few players are stuck in the same kind of sitaution...


I need root beer... toodles...

Mem October 4 2007 5:15 PM EDT

GW, how do you expect to compete with players that can use all of their BA? How would that be fair? They're putting in more effort in this GAME than you are. Why shouldn't you fall behind?

I do agree that eventually the current system of N*B is soon going to become obsolete. There needs to either be a new way of dealing with this issue, or a, God forbid, reset (read: CB3) is in order. Perhaps the N*B could not be limited by time, but instead by a percentage of the top player's MPR. If we all knew that if we fought for 6 or 8 months and we'd be at 85% of Ranger's MPR then I'm sure we'd have more long-term drive to stick around. As far as what we did after that, I've no clue. But I'm willing to bet it'd spice things up around here. Sooner or later there's going to come a time when giving a 10,000% bonus just isn't going to be fair. I envision this time is going to be a time where players play for 4 months, sell out, and then try to multi or leave forever. Why would you want to stick around after losing your huge bonus like that? Something has to change before that time comes to pass and it's too late.

But for now, I just want my reduction in BA cost!

Godpanda October 4 2007 7:26 PM EDT

Putting in more effort?


A bit.


Are they putting in SO much more that I should NEVER be able to progress in the game? No. I use ALMOST as much BA as they do. I should be gaining at ALMOST the same rate. But I'm not. There in lies the flaw.

Talion October 4 2007 8:33 PM EDT

"Well unless you're making 3,876,704 CB a week, you won't make it when you hit 1 mil MPR, Talion."

I am presently making over $3M a week, before buying BA, and I am just under 250K MPR. Based on my previous NCB, that total will not be going down even if the rewards bonuses go down by half.

Of course, with my previous NCB, I was using weapons, which cost a bundle to keep me competitive. This time around, I am not using any weapons, so aside from the occasional armor/tattoo upgrade, it is costing me only BA.

Once my NCB ends, I will look at maybe acquiring a ranged weapon, but not until then.

And no, I am not spending any USD unless a new supporter item comes out and I can't spare the CB$ at that time.

Nerevas October 4 2007 9:24 PM EDT

No offense GW, but its almost as if you're not fighting at all. Check your history graph for the last 4 months compared to say, Flamey's. I don't know what to tell you.. You want to play less, but be as good as the top players. You give away all your money or spend it re-inking your tattoo repeatedly, but you complain about being broke. Can't have your cake and eat it my friend..

Anyway, with the NCB% change, it has the potential to get very close to the top player's mpr. Certainly enough mpr to beat him with a solid strategy. It still requires a great deal of hard work and dedication to fulfill that potential. And why should it not? All players have that chance, at any time in the game's life, to create an NCB and go to the top 10.

Hyrule Castle October 4 2007 9:45 PM EDT

how about, reduce battle rewards by a bunch...and increase BA costs more...!

Flamey October 4 2007 10:08 PM EDT

I thought my MPR gain was midrange, Nere? Or does this show even more in which GW doesn't burn BA?

Nerevas October 4 2007 10:19 PM EDT

In 6 months, you've gained 500k mpr, and godwolf has gained 150k.

Nerevas October 4 2007 10:22 PM EDT

Also important to note is ranger has gained 500k mpr in those 6 months as well.

FailBoat[SG] October 4 2007 10:53 PM EDT

I would love to see the NCB get changed.

Those who know me, know I never really play to seriously compete but I've never had much in the way of money so I really can't do that much. When I make a NCB, its in the hopes of being able to get a character up to a level where it can atleast seem like I'm trying but the prices of items, BA and upgrades is at the point where I would be forced into spending USD to get CB$ and, as much as I love this game, I refuse to do that.

Hyrule Castle October 5 2007 12:23 AM EDT

I still think that if jon totally nerfed the amount of money everyon had, and amount made, to an equal factor, maybe more for NUB, then price of money would go up...which should decrease the cost of items...

or not

noneedforthese October 5 2007 12:36 AM EDT

Urgh, I can't read all this but I'll put in my 2 cents. I think by definition, NCB should be
1. Reasonably expensive (what's reasonable?)
2. If playwed well, able to achieve 80%+, and if purchased minions as well able to achieve over 100% (100 mil into char? 0_o)

No one really wants a cheap NCB that can quickly get to 1.5mil then wither away, right?

And at the same time it's not fair to the veterans if it's a walk in the park to achieve 80% of the top MPR without spending at least 90%+ of the BA allocated.

Iluvatar[NK] October 5 2007 12:53 AM EDT

People seem to forget that NUB pecuniary rewards per battle were already reduced by 40% to coincide with the introduction of 0-cost BA. It results in theoretical consistent NUB income for those who use all BA, while penalizing those who play NUB purely for monetary gain (and then sell out).

I don't understand the complaints levelled at NUB money, since, in many cases, it's less than it used to be. At best it's about equivalent.

sooka October 5 2007 2:38 AM EDT

I'm getting so confused with everyone's different view on this. So what is the point of the NUB/NCB? NUB is to get someone within a certain percentage from the top... but not close enough to the top so that the vet players are content and the game continues to roll out with nothing changing or no competition being created. But if it did do what it's supposed to do, then it's not fair to the vets. Ok so what is a vet? Someone that has been here since CB1 ended? Someone that has started 10 months ago, when you lose your NUB status? There is a line there that is very hypocritical to a lot of the replies being made.
The more I think about it I don't see why making NCB offer free BA like a NUB would be a bad thing. It would give any of the 'vets' an option to start a new strat and get competitive again in a fair amount of time. I don't see how some of you laugh at 4 months as being not a long time and isn't fair for people to get within a competitive level for that duration. This is a RUNNING game with people coming in all the time. You can't keep saying how "this isn't fair, that isn't fair" and have nothing being really changed. Ranger, sorry you keep getting called out, top dawg, even said at least 2 times I've read in past posts that competition has become "stale" at the top. So why not spice it up, why not change things and create some commotion.
This "not fair" business is making me for the first time, want to sell out and let the "vets" have their privy game to themselves. I've been here 5months, more? And still feeling like a "NCB/NUB"... 5 months is a pretty big investment for a game in my eyes... and nothing has really changed since I first started (aside more complaining about fair vs. unfair). I however love the concept of this game, enjoy the community, and am glad to be part of it... but I am one that likes more flavor and expects more from a game with so much creativity. And if the only solution is a reset, then you should hang a big-ol-huge banner with only one word on it, FAILED. (yay, my first semi-rant... tissues for everyone!! and please no spanking :P)

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] October 5 2007 2:51 AM EDT

NCBs with free BA would allow a ton of people to get basically all their BA in with no real negative side. You think it's fair if anyone had the chance to make a 2.5M+ MPR character in 4 months without much significant cost at all? Sure, right now BA cost is too high, but that's no reason to make it free. Compromise and make it lower - but not 0.

sooka October 5 2007 2:58 AM EDT

"You think it's fair if anyone had the chance to make a 2.5M+ MPR character in 4 months without much significant cost at all?"

if they chose to put the time in, why not? Isn't that the purpose of the NUB? Again, what is the purpose of everything! It would sure solve all the complaining about the "unfairness" for anyone that has an existing character that they have played for a longer period, in which a NUB can pass up.

Nerevas October 5 2007 3:35 AM EDT

The difference is:
NUB gets you to the top mprs AND makes you rich as hell
NCB just gets you to the top mprs. It assumes you already have some money.

Yes, the NCB could stand to be made a bit cheaper on the wallet. But other than that, what is the problem here? Both NCB and NUB just got buffed big time. You know how many people are actually bothering to make NCBs and burn all their BA? None. The last person I checked that made really good use of the NCB was Mikel, who is in the top10 mpr now (very close tied for 10th at least). And the NCB is much better off now than then. So what's the problem?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 5 2007 3:53 AM EDT

As others have said, the problem with the NCB taxing you to take into account the Money/Items you have aquired since Jan 5th (like the non NCB vets) doesn't take into account that from Jan 5th, unless you horded everything you ever got, and never bought BA with your original characters, you've already spent cash/got rid of items.

The NCB doesn't come with increased cash reward, so you can never overtake an old Vet (cash wise) with one. On top of that, you are penalised for trying to spend as much BA as them, which the XP rate of the NCB has been designed around.

Why are you penalised? Even if you horded everything you originally earned (which no one has, or will), from the moment you start a NCB you are eraning the same as every other non NUB user. So why the need from here on in, to be forced to pay more than anyone else?

Jon, do we really need to be taxed just to have the option to build a new character and have the chance to be competitive on it?

As I said in the poll, the current NCB pushes those who really want to use the NCB competitivly to purchase CB with USD. Surely removing an in game lure to spend USD is a good thing?

QBRanger October 5 2007 8:07 AM EDT

Well as we all know:

BA cost = Normal BA cost x NCB percentage.

So as the NCB goes up the cost of buying BA goes up as well.

Given rewards are fairly stable, how does one horde all this money?

Imagine when Koy is 4M MPR and the NCB is 270%. BA costs will be an additional 30% or more. Who can afford that much CB2 in BA costs to make a run at the top? Perhaps Freed but he is not buying all his BA as per the Poll.

Mikel October 5 2007 8:24 AM EDT

on a side note,
If you compare my MPR vs Rangers, you'll notice where my NCB ran out and since then, we're pretty much running parallel to each other. I'm not gaining on him, but I'm not losing ground either.

QBJohnnywas October 5 2007 8:32 AM EDT

It's interesting also to compare my char with yours Mikel; there's only a couple of weeks between our start times. You bought BA all the way through didn't you? Whereas I didn't. It's quite clear to see when yours finished and when mine did too, and how you're just slightly pulling ahead in terms of growth rate.

It's quite apparent though the different shape to your NCB compared to mine. The post NCB periods are very similar in shape.

QBRanger October 5 2007 8:39 AM EDT

JW,

Do not also forget Mikel did somethings you did not or could not do.

He uses a ROE for longer than you. He used a +180 set of DB and used seeker arrows. All letting him get a higher challenge bonus then you could possibly get for longer. All perfectly legal, as I have lent my DB's out to N*Bers.

But his MPR advantage is due to more then just buying all the BA he could.

QBJohnnywas October 5 2007 9:00 AM EDT

Yeah, there are other advantages taken during that time, although I was fighting near to 100% challenge bonus for most of my time ( I still have 30 and 40% challenge bonuses going on now...).

But still, the difference in shape has a lot of it's roots in bought BA.

QBRanger October 5 2007 10:29 AM EDT

However,

The person I most want to hear from is PoisoN.

He is the leading natural character and his view on this subject would mean a lot to me.

Mem October 5 2007 8:45 PM EDT

I'll tell you who I'd like to hear from-- the people that selected the "Yes, Reduce its BA costs" on the current poll. How much do you think it should be reduced?

Mikel October 5 2007 8:52 PM EDT

I think it should be a little higher than normal. Say 20-30% higher? That way you can go that route and it's not a killer to the CB that you make.

The last month and a half of an actively buying NCB'er is a cb2 drain.

I don't think you should be able to make tons of money, but stay even if you are using at least 75% of all of your accrued ba, and well if you use 100% of it than you should be able to pull ahead a little in the CB2 dept. That way there is at least an incentive to use it all. And that will help pay for Wacky xp time.

Kong Ming October 5 2007 9:52 PM EDT

I think 50% above normal cost of BA sounds ok.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] October 5 2007 10:31 PM EDT

I agree with Mikel, 20-30% sounds like a good round number, how about 25%...
I sure wouldn't mind paying 25% more than normal BA costs as long as I know it will be worth it and I know I won't fall way short of my goal like Oob or Nere due to not enough money for the BA costs higher up.

Also keep in mind I have a 1.76 mil mpr char already, its not like I need to start an NCB but I would like to have more competition around me instead of only the people that are much larger than me beating me.

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] October 5 2007 11:06 PM EDT

I think 30%-50% more than normal is reasonable.

"if they chose to put the time in, why not?"

Give me a break. 4 months? It took years for some of the top players out there.

QBRanger October 5 2007 11:10 PM EDT

I agree the time frame is too condensed. I would like to see the N*B duration be at least 1/4th the time CB has been out. Now that would be about 2 years 10 months. 1/4th of that would be 8 months.

However, as it is now something has to be done for a NCB to be able to make a decent run near the top and still have some money for items to adequately compete.

Flamey October 6 2007 12:45 AM EDT

I like the 1/4th of CB's life idea, ranger.

Maelstrom October 6 2007 1:49 PM EDT

I like the idea of lower BA costs for NCBs. As I mentioned earlier, I though only players near the top wouldn't like it, as it would be newer character would have an easier time getting to the top. But if everyone's cool with it, let's change it quick, during extra XP time ;)

I'm not so keen on the idea of NCBs lasting 1/4th of CB time. I tend to get bored of a character after a few months, so I wouldn't want to wait 8+ months before starting a new one.

I do like the idea of greatly reducing BA costs, but also reducing cash earned from battles. For an NCB, the assumption is that you have some $cb and gear saved, and you're ready for a run to the top. Such a player wouldn't really need much "spending" money, but would instead put it all into BA. Characters do need some money from battles, to pay healing costs, upgrade costs, and a bit extra. An NCB shouldn't really be a way to make cash.

DH October 6 2007 2:32 PM EDT

i actually enjoy playing my non-ncb char more than my ncb. i dunno why, maybe the strat, maybe the fact hes my first char...hes not even that big...well actually hes quite small. i dunno, maybe i play the game for fun more than the competition...i personally have no opinion on the NCB. im a all natural i guess

QBJohnnywas October 6 2007 2:34 PM EDT

Can we clarify something? It didn't take years for some of the top chars to find their place; it took a matter of months. Some of them have been around the spot they're at for years, Failure for instance has floated around the top ten for ever. But as I recall Failure was up there within the first year of CB2. (correct me if I'm wrong!!!)

QBJohnnywas October 6 2007 2:35 PM EDT

*I was an irritating gnat for Shadowsparkle with an old UC char of mine and that was nearly two years ago...*

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 7 2007 7:26 AM EDT

"I'll tell you who I'd like to hear from-- the people that selected the "Yes, Reduce its BA costs" on the current poll. How much do you think it should be reduced?"

All the way.

Make it cost the normal amount. There is absolutly no need for any sort of 'Tax' on a NCB.

Flamey October 7 2007 7:44 AM EDT

@Mael: The people at the top have to play their characters constantly. And you're bored with a few months? Also reducing cash rewards as well cost, that makes it pointless? You're just going to have the same effect. Then you might say, lower the cost a lot and the rewards are little. Well you could then just lower the cost accordingly so you don't have to touch the cash rewards.

@JW: They have to put in the required effort to stay there, just because everyone started at 0 when the top was made, not much effort was require to be put in.

@GL: Then what's the point of playing a normal character? All of us who have been playing the same character for almost 3 years, if you could get to the same point in 4 months.

I think that covers it.

Mem October 7 2007 8:37 AM EDT

I keep hearing that BA cost should be normal for NCBs. I'm not certain I agree with that. If it was currently around half of where it is I think it would still retain its difficulty factor, but not be totally impossible. And that should be an easily implemented change.

Flamey, NCBers can already easily pass you, so why bother?

Flamey October 7 2007 8:48 AM EDT

Wont pass me by that much, unless buying BA, actually I don't think many passed me at all, maybe that was during the borked N*B. Smallpau1, G_Beee both had NCB which are both on my list, NL ended up getting away, but he burns a lot of BA.

I believe it should be lowered where you still need a fair bit of cash, but not 40 mil, maybe 10 mil or something.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 7 2007 10:22 AM EDT

"Then what's the point of playing a normal character? All of us who have been playing the same character for almost 3 years, if you could get to the same point in 4 months. "

Becasue you want to stay competiive with your current Character.

Ages ago this was pointed out, if you stay at the same overall 'effort' with a non bonus character, than you would with a new bonus character, you would end up ahead of the new bonus character.

Maybe an easier way to explain this.

You play a character and you're at 50% of the Top MPR. And stay at 50% as you put in 50% of the 'effort' the top guy has.

You restart and the bonus is designed to get you to 95%, with equaivalent (100%) effort.

As you only put in 50% 'effort' you will reach 50% of 95% of the Top via a bonus. Which is less than if you had carrid on with your normal character.

The bonus times help when your normal amount of effort has dropped, or you want to totally start over.

You already fall behind by making a bonus charcater, there should be no additional 'Tax' for doing so.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] October 7 2007 10:53 AM EDT


"You play a character and you're at 50% of the Top MPR. And stay at 50% as you put in 50% of the 'effort' the top guy has. "

Actually, if you are at 1/2 and you play at 1/2, you should end up at 1/4.

If you play _to_ 50% MPR, then you must play _at_ 100% to maintain that 50%.

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] October 7 2007 11:02 AM EDT

No, what GL said is right, if you're at 50% of the top MPR and put in 50% effort you should stay the same.

If Koy gets 2 MPR every 1 you get, and they start at 3M to 1.5M MPR, when Koy reaches 4M MPR (1M MPR gain) you should reach 2M at 50% effort (500k MPR gain). 4M:2M is still 50%, at 50% effort.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] October 7 2007 11:36 AM EDT


Edit: If you play _to_ 50% MPR, then you must play _at_ 100% to maintain that difference in MPR.

Not maintain the ratio and end up "even more total MPR behind", but to maintain the actual difference in MPR.

*why isn't MPR in the spellchecker, SNK?

Mem October 7 2007 12:36 PM EDT

Fanta, Bast was just being a smartypants. No need to disagree with her. GL was right.

And, Flamey, with this new bonus your MPR is not safe at all.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 7 2007 1:11 PM EDT

Oi Bast! :P

Comment on my Poll post. ;)

Relic October 7 2007 2:10 PM EDT

People are forgetting that a NCB is supposed to allow a veteran to make a run for the top. If I sell off a bunch of equipment and take a break from CB for a while and then come back to try a NCB again, my options are severely limited to only one option, USD purchases of CB2, and items. Tattoos are getting to have an average size much larger than before and their cost while not full NW is still quite expensive. NCB players imo should have normal priced BA, it doesn't need to be inflated at all. The NCB problem of cost will only get worse as time goes on, the issue needs resolution now and (hopefully forever) by simply making BA cost what it normally costs for other players.

QBRanger October 7 2007 2:13 PM EDT

However,

If you sell off a bunch of stuff the first time you leave, should that not matter in the preparations for the NCB?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] October 7 2007 2:14 PM EDT

"If I sell off a bunch of equipment and take a break from CB for a while and then come back to try a NCB again, my options are severely limited to only one option, USD purchases of CB2, and items."

if you have cashed out, then is it not fair to have to cash back in? cb is not a free money tree after all.

Relic October 7 2007 2:19 PM EDT

I don't expect not having to cash back in for items and tattoos and such, my point is that I should not have to shell out a ton of CB2 on BA in order to make a run for the top. Items are not in question here, the BA cost is.

Drakon(DS) [Guardian Bros Inc] October 7 2007 5:09 PM EDT

umm i think it should be reduced to a 25% increase in normal ba cost i.e. is it cost normally 1000 it should cost NCB guys 1250

Flamey October 7 2007 7:16 PM EDT

"Becasue you want to stay competiive with your current Character.

Ages ago this was pointed out, if you stay at the same overall 'effort' with a non bonus character, than you would with a new bonus character, you would end up ahead of the new bonus character.
"

True, but right now, I believe I'm hitting 80%+ of my BA, not sure. To put in 80%+ BA in an NCB even with reduced costs will cost a crapload of money, if I can even afford it. That's why I think I'm safe.

A comparison that's been made, in the last 6 months I've made 500k MPR and Ranger made 600k MPR, that's fairly close and would be closer but thanks to my negative challenge bonus it isn't.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 8 2007 3:03 AM EDT

Same from what flamey? If you hit 80% effort of the Top MPR, then someone with equivalent effort with a NCB will finish *under* you.

Those that pass you have put in more effort than you.

Shouldn't they therefore pass you anyway?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 8 2007 3:09 AM EDT

Sorry NS, poll's closed! ;)

"The NCB is expensive for a reason. If you don't have the cash for it, then use an NCB to make the cash for it. Power level a tattoo, fight at a 100% challenge bonus, don't buy BA, and fight during money time. After four months, you'll position yourself well for running a real NCB. (Note.. you can sell the tattoo that you power levelled to the store for a good $30m.)"

After four months of a NCB, with no inflated cash rewards, and not buying any BA/Gear you would have made what, 16 Million? If you sell the Tat you power level, then you need to buy a big one anyway.

The money you make in a single NCB can't cover the costs of running to the top with one.

So make more NCB money makers until you do? All the while the Top is getting further away, and your BA cost continues to increase...

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] October 8 2007 8:22 AM EDT


Yes. Or, more simply, "Do it the Jay way!".

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] October 8 2007 9:38 AM EDT

Which question were you answering Bast? ;)

Mem October 8 2007 10:08 AM EDT

Whoa! Whoever said you could sell your tat to the store for 30 million has no idea what they're talking about. The level 2.1 mil tat I just picked up off Velvetpickle doesn't even sell to the store for 7.5 mil. I'm sure even Ranger's tat wouldn't sell to the store for 20 mil. If you think you can use an NCB to power level your tat big enough to get 30 mil from the store for your next NCB you're sorely mistaken.

QBRanger October 8 2007 10:13 AM EDT

My tattoo sells for 17.5 million.

Lumpy Koala October 8 2007 10:47 AM EDT

Mem: well... you probably won't sell to store for 7.5mil when you have a 2.1mil tat right? :P So it could fetch a good price like what you paid to Velvetpickle. Not to mention you have option to insta it down :)

Oh and this is actually a good idea to generate income, because Jon has fixed how NCB works, so every 4 months if you repeat this a few times, sooner or later you have enough money to fully develop a char up to 95% of top MPR (by buying as much BA possible + full dedication to not miss too much BA).

Mem October 8 2007 12:53 PM EDT

That was you, Lumpy?! Sheesh!

Most tattoos are not going to be able to fetch a 50% insta rate, so the 7.5 mil (what a coincidence...) that Velvetpickle made off of me for instant downgrading his tat is, for the most part, unattainable. It's true, you could probably make, reasonably speaking, 2-3 mil from the instant downgrade approach, but that's not much over the course of 4 months. I'd guess that from the 6-9 mil you could make from 3 NCBs consecutively you could make just as much running a regular character, while buying all of your BA, as well as all the cash you'd have made from fighting during your NCB, especially if your regular character is around 500k MPR.

I'm still waiting for my NCB BA cost reduction!
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002EqP">NCB, Lower BA cost, or increase money rewards?</a>