The Breaking Point (in General)
October 29 2007 1:09 PM EDT
One day, CB will find itself facing a very real, very difficult problem. Simply put, when is the top too strong? You can say NUB, or NCB... But one day a character will hit 10 million MPR. And then, really, how can a NUB compete? You miss one day, or one regen a day... You lose. Game over. Even if Ran- Whoever owned best characters was barely trying anymore. What then? Make the NUB's target 10% -higher- than the highest MPR? Hardly seems fair to that player...
Solutions? I have none. None that are realistic. And, for the sake of discussion, let's try to find a solution, instead of denying the problem will one day exist. I know most of you are comfortable vets and if you keep up you'll probably be happy.
But there are thresholds... NW, stats, overall strength...
Because, if you remember CB1ers, the solution in that game was.... CB2. ;)
one bonus instead of n*b, based on the top mpr in game. it is calculated every day at cache flush and you get that bonus till next flush.
the higher the top mpr goes, the higher everyones bonus goes. if someone stops playing and then returns they can catch up. this would even the field with single minions as opposed to multiple minions. the bonus would stop at ninety percent or so of top level but if you fall below that mark later it would kick back in.
buying minions and money for true nubs is the problem here. i am not sure how to deal with those though.
if you are way down, as in just starting, you would get max bonus at say 200 percent or something. as you get closer to the top dog it would go down to say 10 percent bonus until you either hit the mark or fall back into a larger percentage bracket. i am not sure how fast that growth would be, but it could be tweaked to make it the "right" time frame if playing all ba per day.
this idea is not original and i am not claiming it as such. in some format it has been proposed before and i think it would be the best solution.
October 29 2007 2:01 PM EDT
I imagine Jon will probably start planning a rescale relatively soon.
I'm looking forward to it! I loved rescales in CB1, they were my favorite.
I think Jon never imagined that MPR numbers would top more than 2mil. I remember Thing1 when I started- 600K PR. That's nothing now. Ranger told me today that I should have gotten 750K MPR in my first month of NCB (I got ~200K). But even then, a 3 mil MPR character will put me far behind him, considering the fact that he will continue to progress.
In Ranger's defense, he isn't the only one skewing the MPR system. Lots of players are well over 2 million now. I think Spid only just topped 2 mil at the very end of CB1, IIRC.
My idea isn't exactly a "full" rescale. I'd just suggest a rescale of the PR, MPR, and VPR formulae. Scale it back so that the old 4 million MPR mark is the new, say, 1.8 mil MPR mark. Scaling back over 50% is just fine, I think.
Of course, a full rescale could certainly help, as long as it doesn't fudge overall strength. Or rather, relative strength. There's quite a bit that plays in to this, though, and at this point in CB2, a rescale might spark quite the heated conversation. I would imagine Jon is discouraged from total rescales because of the player investment in CB2. Imagine if all of Freed's stuff was "nerfed" down 30%. Eek.
I don't think that a rescale is the answer, because it just prolongs the same inevitable problem. If you rescale Ranger down to even 1 million, eventually he'll be back, and we'll have the same problem.
I would suggest a number of alternatives, but I don't want to destroy the intrinsic "openendedness" of the power limits in CB- nor do I want to change the dynamics of the game. So most of my ideas are moot anyways.
maby jon could do a char swipe, all chars back to 0mpr but we keep the items we got, and that way noone can be to strong
October 29 2007 2:14 PM EDT
I think just a character bonus should apply to everyone based upon the top character. IE a running bonus that affects everyone. If you are 80% of the top mpr then you would get a bonus in line to slowly catch up, if you are 20% of the top, again a larger bonus, but one that enables them to catch up with the same amount of time. All running and re-calculated based upon the mpr of you, and the top. Would this not be fair for all?
If people don't fight as much as the top, their bonus would get larger, yes. But if they maintain fighting as to not catch up, then they will slow down in growth. This would make it harder to catch up but allow people who don't try hard enough not to catch up... make sense??
Sure, a rescale, why not....says me at 1.1 mil, which is not alot :P
A rescale would suck, mainly because it would trash everybody's efforts into getting where they are now. Now, we are talking YEARS of wasted time, which is way uncool. Even when keeping all items and cash. EXP is too valuable, and hard to get, to just scrap it all.
A new bonus, applicable to everybody can be the only solution. There are some good examples of this in past NCB-NUB-Clans etc discussions. Some of which were explained in much detail.
But the fact is, I think the game will always be structured in a way that you have to give it one big push to get to the top, and that is why the Nub and NCB are here. Slowly getting to the top is not really possible, in most cases. Once the N*B is out, you better be well on your way there. What I am trying to say is, the two cannot coexist. (The N*B and an all-applicable bonus).
You also gotta make sure the bonus is divised in a way that does not promote catching up to Ranger with less effort than him. You have to be putting the same amount of time into the game, and then, with a couple months, you can get close. And by close I mean the bonus should be divised so you don't end up at the same MPR than him, but a little less. Just like the N*B, maybe.
And I may be repeating something that was already said above, but that's because I'm supposed to be doing an exam, so sorry for that :)
October 29 2007 3:51 PM EDT
1) Some people want to fight and play 1/2 as much and get 5x the rewards. Ain't going to happen. The people at the top miss almost no BA, others should also before complaining.
2) I have proposed a rolling bonus based on the top MPR or PR. That would solve some problems
3) I have also proposed changing the cost of the NCB in order for people to actually be able to buy BA during that time.
4) A rescale is stupid. Those at the top have earned their place, whether by USD and/or time spent building/buying their characters.
5) If not for the overpoweredness of evasion (both defensive dex and minus PTH) I could easily drop over 250M NW from Koy and still do as well as I am.
October 29 2007 4:18 PM EDT
With the NCB a rescale would be extremely unfair. I know I am biased since I plan on spending lots of $$$ on this character, but to have a system like that and then rescale everyone anyways would be outrageous. A better idea would just be to reduce NCB BA cost (hopefully while I still have mine :D)
I should not, I know I should not, but I just have to say, I see this issue as part of a much bigger one, that effects all society. Why can't you simply be the best you can be. Why must it always be as compared to someone else? Then why is it, when those who through fortune or hard effort obtain something greater, something more, must we penalize them, so that it is easier for others to get "it" as well.
This dude made too much money compared to that dude, well shoot take some of it from this guy and give it to that guy!
This dude is more qualified than that dude, but there are less of that dude here, so he gets the job!
This contractor made a lower bid than that contractor, but that contractor has special status for being in the minority, give the bid the that guy!
This dude has more MPR than that dude, great penalize this dude, and give special help to that dude, so this dude's time and effort and expense is condensed into fast food America's version of "fast enough" for that dude to reach.
Sorry, its more of a rant than anyone wants to hear. I blame a few stories in Fark.com for putting me in the frame of mind.
Your point is still valid Godwolf, at some point it will be unrealistic to assume any new starting person, without an extreme amount of help could catch any of the current Top 5, assuming they stay at there current effort levels, in another year or so at most, so what do you do?
You already answered your own question, if your goal is to allow new people the chance to be number one, then you start CB3. It is the only logical mechanism for correction and balance once that point is reached.
P.S. logic does NOT mean it is the nice easy soft comfortable thing and it is not meant to be.
October 29 2007 4:41 PM EDT
Well put seft. I am not averse to a rescale (if that is the alternative to cb3). However I personally am not trying for top spot - just want the joy of seeing a character in the top 10 eventually. I have put a lot of money and effort into this game. The money is not just spent on Buying cb$ for weapons/minions and paying for naming of items but paying for internet access on my frequent trips abroad. Sometimes in excess of 80USD a week in some countries.
Ranger and most other top 10 people have spent a great deal of time and effort in this game to get to their position and yes it is doubtful that anyone can catch ranger now especially given the use of the RoE - so what.
Given the amount of money I have spent on NCBs over the past year or two I probably could have vied for the position but I chose to go the interesting way of starting another character with a (slightly) different strat. Thats my way of retaining interest in the game.
October 29 2007 4:50 PM EDT
Right on the money Sefton.
The option to spend money is open to EVERYONE that plays CB. If you choose not to, then don't expect to get to the TOP.
Let me clarify that it is not needed to spend USD in order to compete, but it is 100% needed to get to the top. I think that is fine how it is. I recently came into some good economic times, so now I spend some extra cash on the game to make a run for the top 10 mpr.
This option is open to everyone. Judging from the continually falling price of buying CB (I just picked up over 20 mil CB in the last little while for 5-6 bucks/mil) not very many people are taking this option.
October 29 2007 5:06 PM EDT
This is fun! =D Keep going. I'm sure ya'll's minds are just reeling!
OK, let me mention this also. The top looks depressing! Massive MPR, massive PR, with score to PR ratios in the negatives! Yuck. I personally like to take the smallest MPR, add the smallest PR to it that I can, then make the highest possible score with it. The challenge is how long can you keep your 2x 3x 4x score ratio, for how long, for how much MPR. It is not as easy as it sounds. Everything on here is designed to make your PR accurate, and I do everything in my power to mask it from my opponents. I do not see how the top is even fun anymore, looks as awful lot like work to me! Everyone running after you with bigger and bigger advantages. You feel like you slow down even a little and all your effort will be wasted. Yuck. Yuck. Yuck.
From the department of, careful what you wish for, be careful what you wish for.
October 29 2007 6:39 PM EDT
Ratios of positive numbers can't be negative.
Good to see you, Sefton. *smile*
I see your point, and I find the top depressing as well. I blame it on too much layered damage reduction, but that's probably because I don't play the wall game. I think Walls are exceedingly boring, however, and I have never met anyone who says, "Ooooh! Walls, YEAH!" But they like them for the power they provide.
I think it's too much power, and especially for MgS walls, the power against mages barely shows in total PR. Doubly boring!
But I will put up for the Top Ten a bit... The Lega is still awesome. NWO is a natural powerhouse. Dixie keeps her Jig, gotta give props for that. Battle Royale collectively HAS to generate some awe... Conundrum, nice. igot is WONDERFUL. Failure is anything but. These are the names I remember of those that are ensconced or fleeting in the Top Ten. and the only reason some could be considered boring is simply because half of the options are gone -- they can't move up, only down! *smile*
October 29 2007 7:09 PM EDT
I must be the only one who doesn't think its as bad as everyone makes it out to be..
October 29 2007 7:11 PM EDT
i dont see a problem... in all mmorpgs there are people at the top and people at the bottom... CB has been very good to newbies by giving them NUB bonus and vets by NCB... i think everyone should consider it a bonus instead of something you should be having in the 1st place... yep i know what you would say... it is a turn based game and thus theres a limited amount you can spend... just think about it this way...everyone has a chance at NUB(use it or waste it) other then the few vet players... so y would anyone complain... personally i think i wasted my NUB(could have done better)... but i still continue playing... just think everyone should stop thinking its your "jon" given right to reach the top 10 positions... so what if you miss BA? its your own fault -.-
October 29 2007 7:19 PM EDT
On-Topic? The Breaking Point?
October 29 2007 7:20 PM EDT
I would like to point out that most games have a "middle class" so to speak. This game really doesn't. Rare items, or crap. Being in the middle is so fleeting.. you either fall back down or pull yourself into some sun. Not my interpretation. Flame as you will.
October 29 2007 7:21 PM EDT
it is on topic sheez
October 29 2007 7:23 PM EDT
Hmmm. I floated around the top thirty with my last char. But he was too small too make too much of a dent on the top ten; and besides all that EC/ToE combo makes it damn near impossible for tanks who aren't in BR to get anywhere. However, my char was just over a million MPR mixing with people twice my size. So given time, and a prevailing wind to blow away a few cobwebs and who knows what my char would have been able to achieve?
I get bored easily though so....
Anyhow; I remember all too well CB1. For those of you who never touched CB1 it was an imposing place for a just out of newbie state player. All those HUGE teams up top and you not growing fast enough to even sniff their coat-tails. Took me as a new player six months to hit a million score; I'm not sure what the top scores were but a million seemed like very small change in comparison. Anyway, I'm now sitting at 500k score with my new shiny NCB after a week.
Things are a lot better here than they were in CB1, despite the deadlock at the top. And unfortunately that deadlock won't go away. Players might stop playing but there will always be a crew who dig in deep and stay there. I've never seen a game where that's not the case. And unless you want to put in the hours more than they do you're not going to take them on at their own game and beat them. You can climb up there quickly but they've been playing the 'long game'.
It's what it's all about really. Forget the USD arguments, forget the strategies that make you want to pull out your hair. Unless you're prepared to play the long game you won't do it. Rescale or no rescale.
October 29 2007 7:30 PM EDT
That's the thing. I truly believe you can still make a NCB and go beat up the top10. You may not be able to beat up the top 3 or so without some solid NW backing (which doesn't have to be generated by USD, but it will take time), but you can most definitely get up there. I just don't see many people making the efforts. You gotta burn all your BA, you gotta give the full 110%. Since the refresh change its twice as easy to do now! And NCB just got mega buffed! Come on people!
October 29 2007 7:32 PM EDT
*bows to Nerevas* I've heard you're planning it. Do it. =D
Bring back camping and USD wont be the only way to reach the top...... I am just saying *smile*
The situation you describe did exist for quite some time recently. Eventually enough noisy people noticed and Jon changed things. Sure as the top mpr grows and so does the N*B % any missed BA which is out of the users control hurts more but that could be easily fixed by extending the N*B timespan and decreasing the bonus amount.
October 29 2007 8:15 PM EDT
:) i agree... NCB should be half the bonus but double the length
"I just don't see many people making the efforts"
October 29 2007 10:22 PM EDT
I am currently averaging a daily gain of 15,382 MPR. If I continue at my current rate through the end of my NCB, I will end as a single minion with 1,899,840 MPR. Not too shabby and unless there is a major change to the RoBF before that time, I should be able to contend at the higher up levels.
Explain to me how no one is trying...
October 29 2007 10:25 PM EDT
I do hope your realize there will be a point where your challenge bonus will decrease and your daily growth will as well. To anticipate keeping up your current growth rate is ill advised.
October 29 2007 10:26 PM EDT
NS, there aren't many... hat's not to say that there aren't *any*, just that most who do go with NCBs don't put in the effort, whether because they don't want to, or don't have the time and/or money.
October 30 2007 12:38 AM EDT
I plan to bust into the 6/20 rate with this NCB, but the going is getting tough right now. It's also getting expensive, however when (if!) I make it the reward is going to be amazing :D
October 30 2007 4:40 AM EDT
rescale is silly like alot of people have said. it's silly because it removes the whole point of effort and dedication. i think godwolf or somebody mentioned there not being a middle class, and that got me thinking that in most games out there, there is a limit, a lvl cap for instance.
Usually this is how most games deal with just 1 person being over powered and such. with this eventually you'll get to where the number 1 spot guy is, or at least have the ability to be the same "lvl" or in this case MPR as him/her to compete with him/her. like any other ideas though its got alot of holes, but this is just one thing that i see in CB, you can keep growing and growing as much as you want.
maybe a MPR cap should be introduced??
October 30 2007 4:59 AM EDT
never lol... then whats the point of getting up there when you will be the same as all the rest of them
October 30 2007 1:56 PM EDT
I'm all for the bonus that many have mentioned...
A bonus to help keep up with the #1 spot. This would be in addition to clan, N*B, and wacky rewards time. It would definitely even things up in a few months.
Oh, and get rid of the top ten exemption or whatever that thing is...
October 30 2007 2:33 PM EDT
Maybe... Get rid of challenge bonuses completely, and augment rewards to compensate for this... Everyone is on a fair playing field, from day one.
October 30 2007 4:50 PM EDT
there is a point lostling, because if there wasn't then most MMORPGs wouldn't function.... or even just online games in general
of course with lvl caps you would have to take away retraining, which a nice part of CB.
October 30 2007 7:57 PM EDT
lets say the level cap is 5mill MPR... what would happen if lets say ranger gets 5 x5 mill MPR chars? what can he do then?
While I don't like the idea of a big rescale, and even less that of an MPR cap, I wouldn't mind some kind of bonus that scales with the top MPR. I'm not saying it should be easy to get to the top; those who are currently the best have worked hard to get there and I don't think anyone will disagree that hard work should be rewarded (this is also WHY I disagree with a rescaling or MPR cap).
Perhaps it would be nice to have a bonus based on the difference between the top MPR and your current MPR. This way newbies will get a big bonus and grow fast, while those already close to the top will have to work (almost) as hard as the biggest players to keep up and maybe even overtake them. Depending on how it would be implemented, such a bonus could even replace the N*B...
October 31 2007 4:51 PM EDT
October 31 2007 4:58 PM EDT
rangers solution = $$$
October 31 2007 5:18 PM EDT
How is my solution costly?
October 31 2007 5:20 PM EDT
Maybe he means it's money. Like... The ultimate solution... That's what I thought he meant... Maybe I'm naive ^.^
I just read it and I have no idea why it wasn't done like this in the first place. It's logical. You don't need money, when you have a chance to get top MPR.
As long as you are semi active, you'll be able to keep up and for hard core users, they might even be able to catch up to the top MPR Spot.
Buying your ba isn't costly under this system. No where was it mentioned that you pay more for it.
October 31 2007 10:16 PM EDT
i meant it was an excellent idea...
October 31 2007 10:17 PM EDT
Maybe he means it's money. Like... The ultimate solution... That's what I thought he meant... Maybe I'm naive ^.^ Maybe he means it's money. Like... The ultimate solution... That's what I thought he meant... Maybe I'm naive ^.^ Maybe he means it's money. Like... The ultimate solution... That's what I thought he meant... Maybe I'm naive ^.^
=D I knew DH wouldn't let me down! Good ole' hippies!
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