TSA: Regen needs a change (in General)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 8 2007 9:26 PM EST

The TSA regen needs to be changes to be 5% of current natural HP instead of 5% of max natural HP. I understand it might be difficult to calculate which HP goes first, but the way it is now is broken.

Hyrule Castle November 9 2007 12:47 AM EST

im having a hard time graspin that.... what do you mean?

so when people double tap... they gain less hp? or what...

BootyGod November 9 2007 12:56 AM EST

As battle goes on, you regenerate less. You have less HP, so your percent goes down, so what you regenerate goes down.

Seconded, Novice.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 9 2007 12:59 AM EST

TSA minion has 1 mil HP to start, 5% of that is 50k.

Currently Minion takes 100k damage and regens 50k

What I'm suggesting is that the minion instead regain 5% of the 900k HP he has left. This will prevent the TSA from being a stalemate machine. AS would seem to be a problem, but I believe as long as HP gained from AS is removed first (TSA regen doesn't kick in until the minion is below natural HP anyway) it should work fine.

Flamey November 9 2007 1:11 AM EST

I understand the suggestion, but I don't understand why it needs changing?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 9 2007 1:13 AM EST

For starters decay is useless against TSA minions...

Khardin November 9 2007 2:16 AM EST

Useless seems a tad dramatic since decay takes half the targets HP.

Round 1 -
Decay takes 50% leaves 50% left.
TSA regenerates 5%, leaving 55%.

Round 2 -
Decay takes 50% of 55%, leaving 27.5%.
TSA regenerates 5%, leaving 32.5%.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 9 2007 2:20 AM EST

When it gets down to the point where you're halving a TSA minions HP down to 100k, and he regens it right back all the way to round 25, it sure feels useless.

Flamey November 9 2007 2:21 AM EST

someone with 2 mil HP? Yeah, I think they deserve it. Besides, Decay isn't supposed to kill anything and doesn't kill anything, so going on till round 25 would happen regardless of TSA or not.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 9 2007 2:24 AM EST

100k, 50, it doesn't matter. The TSA creates a complete foil for decay and it needs to be fixed.

Khardin November 9 2007 2:31 AM EST

But it takes 10 rounds for a TSA to regenerate a decay hit.
It takes 14 rounds to recover from two decay hits.
If your decay minion is surviving past that, maybe things could be set up differently so a minion dealing greater damage (at that point) survives instead.
I'm probably missing something.
Is there a more specific example, round by round?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] November 9 2007 3:47 AM EST

Front Minion.

HP, MgS, TSA, AoI.

Decay is effectively useless.

Can't be hit by Physical, Magic is gonna have a Hard time killing it.

The only thing that really has a hope of killing a minion like this before the rest of the team dies is the RoBF. >;)

Aargh [Closer to the Stars] November 9 2007 4:14 AM EST

GL, even without the TSA that minion would be hard to kill in any way. AoI prevents a lot of physical damage, and MgS stops a lot of magic damage. Couple that with enough HP, and you've got something that'll survive a long time. TSA just stretches that time. TSA's 5% is nothing compared to Decay's 50%. Of course Decay's effect becomes smaller as the target's HP drops while TSA's doesn't, but as said before that's because Decay was never meant to kill anything.

Not to mention that, if you can't do more than 5% damage per round to one minion, it would take more than 20 rounds to kill it, even without the TSA... Assuming the minion is part of a team (with the TSA you can't wear a Familiar or RoBF so you need at least one more minion dealing damage if this one is only training HP), needing 20+ rounds to kill just one minion probably means you're losing anyway. And that's without TSA.

Adminedyit [Superheros] November 9 2007 5:06 AM EST

wanna foil decay? 20 hp minion with a PL minion behind him.

Unappreciated Misnomer November 9 2007 5:29 AM EST

Decay is the only 'front to back' Direct Damage Spell and will hit the Amulet of Invisibility wearing minion if he is upfront.

QBRanger November 9 2007 9:41 AM EST

If this is all about decay, remember decay cannot kill.

I see no reason this should be changed. You just need to do enough damage to overcome the TSA's regeneration. If not, then you deserve to stalemate.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 9 2007 10:18 AM EST

decay is used to bring down HP to the point where low damage can kill a minion, when a TSA is involved this isn't possible

AdminShade November 9 2007 10:20 AM EST

If a TSA is a stalemate machine, then the opposing party simply needs more damage output ;)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 9 2007 10:34 AM EST

So what you're saying then Shade (and the rest of you), is that if a TSA is involved don't expect decay to work...thanks for making my point for me.

Talion November 9 2007 10:41 AM EST

"decay is used to bring down HP to the point where low damage can kill a minion, when a TSA is involved this isn't possible"

If that is your strategy, then it won't work against a TSA minion. Use higher damage.

It's just like a single UC character against an Evasion/FB team. Just forget it. UC character looses. Find other targets.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 9 2007 10:51 AM EST

Here is what I do not get. It seems that overall, everyone wants more choices. More ways to accomplish the same or similar goal.

The TSA offers single tanks a method to mitigate some of the effect of Decay without forcing them to train AMF. Or another option to use if you want to protect from Decay. As far as I know, the ONLY other option to AMF.

So I cannot understand for the life of me, why you would advocate a reduction of choice, given your posts on other threads where choice is being advocated. How else would you recommend a single tank protect from Decay, besides AMF?

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 9 2007 11:00 AM EST

Why should the innate ability of an item be so powerful?

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 9 2007 11:12 AM EST

Why is Decay so powerful, why do large objects in space create a Gravitational field, why does time slow down as one approaches the speed of light?

I mean come on, Decay is potentially the most powerful spell in the game, I use it to great effect on my Sefton team. The opponent can have 10mil HP and just 4 rounds of Decay would make that 750K left, name something else without Net Worth with that kind of potential.

AdminShade November 9 2007 11:46 AM EST

novice, I myself missed that point, and indeed, TSA should only regenerate your current max HP of that round.

sorry :)

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 9 2007 11:50 AM EST

Why is that Shade, so the need for a single tank to train AMF becomes like evasion for Mages, a necessity, but even worse the only option available.

QBsutekh137 November 9 2007 11:58 AM EST

Just FYI, another sometimes effective way to make stance order unimportant in enemy teams is spread-fire. FB works well as does CoC/TOE (look at Conundrum).

I don't think the TSA is too powerful in and of itself. It seems more powerful because of the layers (as GL pointed out on another thread, and I have pointed out numerous times). Ranger says "do more damage", I say "how"? The only active offensive things that can do enough damage to overcome all the layers (especially TSA/PL/VA) are ranged blows, CoC, and massively pumped melee weapons.

Other than that, you need to depend on passive damage: AMF, GA, and RoBF.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 9 2007 12:04 PM EST

Not sure how layers relate to TSA regeneration. I mean sure in the overall scheme of things, the layers cause you to need to do more damage and when the TSA regens, it forces you to do even more, but still, no way changing the TSA to work with 5% of your current HP is going to suddenly make the layers seem "fair" or whatever the other argument might be for changing the way the layering works.

This TSA currently offers an alternative to AMF on a single tank in regards to protecting from Decay. Change its effect and now it might not be a viable mechanism for doing so, thus limiting you to AMF and only AMF to protect from even the smallest trained Decay. Cannot see how anyone would advocate that, I cannot see nor am I saying he is, how Sut would ever advocate such a thing. Choice is Sut's bread and butter.

Dark Dreky November 9 2007 12:17 PM EST

I must agree with a TSA regen nerf. As HP increases the regeneration effect becomes more and more powerful and there's no way to stop it! (save for doing more and more damage per round).

Maybe keep the regeneration and get rid of (re-scale) the ST bonus. As of right now tanks can pretty much get a 50% bonus to ST with a decent sized TSA... THAT'S ONE ITEM! Don't forget that every + adds AC too! (right?)

A change is needed. Or make CoI regenerate and I'll call it even.

QBSefton [Black Cheetah Bazaar] November 9 2007 12:28 PM EST

Been wanting to say this for awhile now....

NEWS FLASH!!!! The majority of the game is NOT played in the Top 50. Please stop trying to make game changes simply to accomodate what is likely a subset of the game such that it totals less than 5% of the active user base.

Sure if you have 2mil HP to start and you get 5% of that a round (which is only 400K and my 300MPR single tank does twice that in ranged on average) it could seem overpowered. My 400K HP single tank regenerates a WHOPPING 20K a round. How many of you out there have a minion with 2mil HP on it, on an active character you use everyday? Again, you cannot legislate the minority at the expense of the majority. If you do something to "balance" the Top 50 that really HARMS the other 95% of the game, how is that an improvement?

QBsutekh137 November 9 2007 12:29 PM EST

I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with any proposed TSA changes.

I was explaining why the TSA makes it possible to stay alive, and why it is so hard to simply "do more damage".

However, the TSA does require people to invest in real HP. While that sucks for my DM strategy, it seems a fair tradeoff.

novice, if people are investing in real HP, then is 5% per round really that unfair?

horseguy001 November 9 2007 12:45 PM EST

I agree with Sut, since in order to get back that 75k a round you need to train 1.5 mil HP. If that was a PL minion behind a low HP minion, it's going to be hard to kill anyways, and make decay equally ineffective.

I think this is more of a damage issue. I imagine if your IF was around 3 mil then your damage output around your decay minion would surely overcome any TSA regen out there. I'm sure the TSA would lose that damage race; for every 100 HP I train I get 5 back, whereas every 100 DD levels of CoC is going to be more then 5 damage even with spread.

Talion November 9 2007 1:26 PM EST

"However, the TSA does require people to invest in real HP."

Yes it does... AS generated HP does not regenerate.

If you want your TSA to be effective, you need to invest lots of XP into HP.

I remember back when the TSA was nurfed so it didn't protect against DD spells anymore and only regenerate trained HP, a lot of users sold them because they considered them useless from then on.

Now some users have adapted to maximize its potential and the "overpowered" laments resurface.

I don't think the TSA is overpowered. It's just fine the way it is.

Yukk November 9 2007 10:18 PM EST

Well, in that case, we should do away with VA too. It's not even capped by Max HP. That's not fair for my team. I want my team to be able to win all fights but someone with a massive VA can regen more HP than I can dish out. So let's nerf that. We should also nerf blades with innate VA. That's way too powerful in an item ! Not only does the weapon do more damage the more NW it has, it gives more HP !
Oh, I don't like decay either. It takes away too many HP from my poor tank. He needs those HP to survive !
Face it. Unless you're Ranger, you can't beat everyone.
The initial suggestion sounds reasonable except that not all tanks/walls out there have 2M HP and a TSA. What about the guys who have 100k HP ? They get back 5k per round. Doesn't sound so overpowered now does it ?

TheHatchetman November 9 2007 11:46 PM EST

The HoC makes having four or less minions with a melee/CoC-based strata liability... Spreading XP while their archer is killing you in ranged easier and easier...
PL makes vampiric aura useless along with A/Exbow effect...
AoI is made useless by MsK, A/Exbow, and Decay...
Evasion can make DX and pth useless...
RoBF with AMF can make DD useless...
DM makes EDs useless...
The list goes on...

So, while the TSA may seem overpowered, it really is just part of the balance of this strategy game we've all come to know and love.

And as far as "Why should the innate ability of an item be so powerful?" Have you noticed, with the exception of MsK, Axbow, and Exbow, the AoI makes any minion the last to be targeted? Or that the HoC allows archers to take out entire teams during ranged, and gives SoDers ab extra shot with their ES?

Ancient Anubis November 10 2007 12:30 AM EST

what the hell might as welll put in my 2 bob...

who cares get over it people. What people keep bringing up as 'overpowered' game imbalances is merely the discovery of effective singular and combo strategies that allow for greater character develeopement and enemy targeting.

I find it most interesting is that people only c these 'overpowerments" when they can't beat a few players and i mean a few cause there aren't that many.

What people don't seem to realise is what comes with great choice is the inability to compensate for every combination and variety, the fact is those few that seem to at the moment mainly do so due to greater exp accumulation and networth then what the rest of us have. If everything was perfectly balanced and everyone could counteract everything everyone else did no one would win and the game would be boring, boring and boring.

Oh and by the way as pointed out Decay is not meant to kill and if anything is only a spell for a secondary minion to aid the primary in hp reduction to allow for a quicker kill. The fact that tsa leads to hp regeneration is merely a 'puzzle' that requires careful consideration about what type of minion u wish for your primary damage dealer to be.

I would also ask people to thoroughly think about what they are asking for to be nerfed cause the fact is that if it does get nurfed some else will be just as effected and suddenly people will be calling for a nurf on decay to like 25% of real hp reduction etc

Mikel November 10 2007 3:09 AM EST

Once in a blue moon, my tank dies from GA+Decay vs you, but kills your Damage dealer in the same round leaving your AoI wearing decay minion. Bottom line, you still wouldn't beat me if I wasn't wearing the TSA because Decay by itself can't kill.

Seriously...... your decay minion does 1.5 mil damage to my Tank in one round. I think decay should be nerfed, it can be way more powerful than a TSA. That's more damage than Ranger can do with one hit from his MH.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 10 2007 3:17 AM EST

Your wall would die from GA return without the TSA...

Flamey November 10 2007 3:27 AM EST

Decay works better than TSA regen. It's only at the very top does it start to equal out I suppose? Where tanks have a lot of HP. Down low, it'd be useless to use a TSA.

Mikel November 10 2007 7:10 AM EST

in which case I would take off the BoTH.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] November 10 2007 10:45 AM EST

I'm figure you put it on for a reason, it'd at least be a tiny change resulting from my idiocy... which is typically what I hope for.

QBsutekh137 November 10 2007 10:55 AM EST

Mikel, Decay has two huge disadvantages: waiting till melee and AMF.

If you can't get to Decay mage and get him killed, then your enemy has good stance. Also, not using AMF is a choice you made. In fact, you made that choice, at least in part, because the MgS could already get you protection from magic. As you said to me in another thread about tanks, I guess you aren't using everything at your disposal to beat mages.

I fail to see how that is the mage's problem.

QBsutekh137 November 10 2007 10:56 AM EST

Furthermore, if you aren't going to have AMF, you had better have a huge DM so as to get rid of opposing GA. If your DM isn't enough to stop GA in some of your opponents, then maybe you should try AMF?

Mikel November 10 2007 12:36 PM EST

Nah the TSA prevents him from getting the win, which is his complaint, not mine. So I am using it to my advantage.

I recently untrained PL is why he's getting them, again only once in a blue blue moon.

He's on my fight list and I'm at 100% wins. So I don't have a problem with not having AMF trained and my DM is big enough to get the job done, so why waste the xp until I actually start losing due to GA?

One thing you are ignoring Sut is that I only have two minions so I am making due with the best available with a ToA Elb Archer setup. If I had just one more minion, then Decay wouldn't even be an Issue with me and I would increase my DM as well or if I had a Mage Seeker as big as my elb. But I made this strat to be an Elb Archer because Mage Seekers weren't out there when I was in my NCB Stage, and I do plan to add another minion soon, maybe, it all depends on the next change month.

QBRanger November 10 2007 1:59 PM EST

Then again, if you had native hp on your minions, the TSA regeneration would work great with your GA.

It just depends on the strategy one uses.
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