NUB: Free BA _and_ forging bonus? (in General)

Why do new players (those with a NUB) get free BA and a bonus to forging?

i dont know, but i could really use one of those nubs to help me catch up right about now.

The free BA is to help them "grow" of course. The monetary rewards were lowered to make their BA free.

But i, like you, never saw the purpose of making the NUB apply to forging.

IMO, forging is an advanced part of CB and the NUB should be to let them grow a character and see the game played. After the NUB period expires then let them forge away.

It really is a disservice to those forging without the NUB.

Disservice is not the word. It's an insult.

i like being atop the forging 24 hours list with only NUBs being twice as high as me, =/

Forging for 24 hours
un5een ($1,487,703)
gbeta ($1,208,399)
Passion ($941,165)
Realm ($901,052)
{cb1}smallpau1 ($578,991)

sweet!

maybe instead of ridding the bonus to the NUBs forging, give it to all forgers? That would make it so people will actually want to forge. This way, all forgers make profits like fighters do. But i dont see this happening, so rid the bonus for everybody please!

I agree Wasp.

i was trying to be politically correct.

It really is an insult to those that have played CB for longer then 4 months.

Unless of course your a multi who comes back, plays for 2 weeks to get to 500k MPR then forges for USD. That is just tragic for the game.

NUB forgers are able to make the same choice we were able to make, add NW or mpr. I think it makes a lot of sense for a NUB to spend the last month adding massive NW to a single weapon to allow them a chance when they go for that all too likely NCB.

However, a huge part of the NUB's effectiveness in forging is the free BA they get everyday.

12 hours worth of free BA can really boost someones forging ability.

"NUB forgers are able to make the same choice we were able to make, add NW or mpr."

Yes, but some of us did not get a bonus, nor did we have a bonus when we had that option. Plus, they have a bonus both ways (duh, free BA + bonus to forging); what's so fair about that to the non-NUB population?

The free BA may make up for lack of rewards during fighting, but it surely hurts the forging aspect, especially other forgers (read: me) in the same line of work that are putting in every single BA possible per day into forging with a pretty decent item to forge and STILL manging to get BELOW 1/3 of what a NUB can forge in 24 hours.

Where's the justice in that?

There is no "justice" in it.

Part of CB however, get used to it :)

Dang we need a nub to post in this thread so everyone can flame him :P

I realize Jon has no incentive for marketing forging as a "thing-to-do" in CB (duh, you really SHOULD be fighting!) but allowing NUB players to take advantage of this great opportunity seems ridiculous.

Why don't we just tell all NUBs who join chat to say: "Don't fight; you'll make more money in 4 months forging. Then you can start a NCB with all that money (or, hey, sell out!) and have a shot at the top with an enormous sum of money."?

I think it says a lot when you only see one NUB posting in here ~__~. You cannot even begin to say 'fair,' because that would indicate that we have all started at the same time, with the same knowledge and experience, as well as an equal grasp of tactics and CB economy. Just because NUBs have a forging bonus doesn't mean we're able to use it as effectively as you do.

Sure, we can learn, and of course it's easier for us to accumulate money faster than someone who was playing before NUB was introduced. Of course we have the benefit of experienced mentors to help us. If we started out the same way a lot of you probably did -- no bonuses whatsoever -- we'd be so far behind we wouldn't even want to play anymore. "So what?" you say. "This game isn't supposed to be fair." And that's my response to this thread.


And, before you flame me NIN, it's her, not him.

"Just because NUBs have a forging bonus doesn't mean we're able to use it as effectively as you do."

Uh, what? There is NO strategy (OK, maybe minimal: gee, do I forge DBs vs. the x on a BoTH?) in forging. You pick an item, you follow the button commands, you get rewarded with an increase in RPM. (Gee, that sounded a lot like how God of War works, eh?) It's not nuclear physics; in fighting, you actually have to think about your strategy, your opponents, etc.

How can NUBs not use the forging bonus as effectively as non-NUBs when there's only one thing to count for: you get a bonus, we don't.

It gets even easier if one uses Verifex's script.

BTW, if this game isn't supposed to be fair, then why the hell do we have bonuses to help new players and players who have the ability to get to the top (NCB)?

Okay, there isn't any strategy involved in forging. But if you look at the small amount of NUBs forging vs the amount of NUBs racking up MPR, there is a very large difference in numbers. We're not all trying to take every advantage to surpass anyone here, and while I'm hesitant to speak for the rest of the NUBs, I'm not looking to simply forge my way to the top.

I do admit that the NUB free BA and forging bonus combined make it very tempting to just burn my BA on forging, but it's not like we're simply trying to outstrip any forger who isn't getting a bonus.

If you had the choice, would you simply delete your account and start over, just so that you'd have more money/XP/whatever? NUB may give new users an edge (understatement <<), but I don't understand why people are ragging on us because we get the bonus and you don't. I mean, it's understandable that you would be angry or irritated about it, but there's no need to say that it's 'insulting.' We didn't ask for it when we joined, and although I'm extremely grateful for it, there's no way we would be able to make as much money as you have in your time spent.

If this game, and more importantly, what the community thinks about the game, is all about getting to the top in money/MPR the fastest, then I'm not so sure it'd be a good investment in my time. I understand that this is simply an open discussion to vent, and possibly to shine a light on the obvious (and yes, very powerful) benefits of being a new user, but the NCB is available to every user, new and old. Even if we did straight forging, we wouldn't have enough money to match the NW on older folks around here. I simply see the NUB as a great incentive to keep playing, and to close the very large gap between old player and new.

And, SNK, good point about fairness. I retract my previous statement about CB not being fair ~__~.

"You cannot even begin to say 'fair,' because that would indicate that we have all started at the same time, with the same knowledge and experience, as well as an equal grasp of tactics and CB economy."

So its fair that someone playing for 3 months can beat up on those who've played for 3 years? Or are you saying that the guy who fought for a month deserves to outforge the guy that built up a character for years. The NUB bonus is interesting, and a good way to keep newer players. But as I've been saying even since I had a NUB, the NUB isn't "fair."

I'm not complaining about it, as I enjoyed mine. But to say its unfair because you don't know enough about the game is ludicrous. Read the wiki, make some friends that've been around awhile, and you'll learn all you need to know and more within the first few weeks or so...

;) if you do not learn it by then you probably wouldnt be around lol... and yes i agree that forging bonus is not required expecially with the free BA

That's perfectly true Hatch, and I'm not disagreeing that the bonus is working quite a bit in the new user's favour. If I'm not mistaken though, I'm sure by now that there are at least some people who have been playing for 3 years and are under 1 mil MPR, making them easy pickings for a dedicated NUB after three months. Heck, I'm hitting some that started Jan 2005, and I've only been playing a month or so.

Conversely, there are those people who are still top of the game after 3 years, and there are those NUBs that won't ever make it past 250k MPR because they aren't dedicated enough. Just because the NUB makes it easier for new characters doesn't necessarily mean you're missing out on anything.

You've had three years, and although one can make it up to that MPR at a previously impossible -to-do period of time, I don't think it's unfair. I mean, is it fair that someone playing 3 years can just beat up anyone they feel like? Barring those at the top, who are in close competition with one another, you can hit virtually anyone you want; why shouldn't we be able to too? Because we've been playing for a smaller amount of time?

Yes, I would say that would be a fair argument. But if the most powerful kept growing more and more out of reach, and the newcomers were simply stuck at the lowest level of CB, what fun would that be? If the rich keep getting richer, how are the poor ever going to keep up without some factor to tip the scales in their favour?


And, Hatch, I did state above that it's relatively easy for someone to learn. I was trying to say that if you want to look at the 'unfairness' of the NUB, you must look at it holistically, from all angles. If you're going to look at the merits of the NUB, you must also look at the drawbacks, no matter how small or insignificant, of starting out a new game, and then you must compare them to the advantages of starting out earlier, as well as the disadvantages of not having the NUB.

> if the most powerful kept growing more and more out of reach, and the newcomers were simply stuck at the lowest level of CB, what fun would that be?

That is what happened in CB1, and that is why there is CB2 and the NUB.

I wasn't disagreeing with the NUB, only pointing out its unfairness to the older players.

And NUBs having it easier than other players does make others miss out. Forgers are finding it difficult to find jobs now that a NUB with 2% of the MPR of the older player can forge nearly twice as much net worth in a day (Not an exaggeration...). And, by charging 65% or less, makes forging really pointless... even in an economic clan (to save on forge fees), and forging an ELB (one of the easiest items in the game), at a rate of 72% (I doubt this'll happen very often), I'm only making about 280-400k /week more than i would by fighting without a clan, and highest challenge bonus in the teens on a good day... now if I'm made to forge at 65%, then ill be breaking close to even, but with no XP/tat growth, provided i can even get a job over the NUB doing 2-3x my nw...

Sad thing is that most NUBs don't even know that they will make slightly more money AND be able to gain gain XP by fighting at 100% challenge bonus in any kind of ranked clan...

And I apologize if you took my previous post as anything more than a response, as my sarcasm can sometimes offend others unintentionally. But its just how i operate.

Yeah seriously, this is mainly why I stopped forging...

Jon,

This is not an indictment of the NUB/NCB. I think most of us accept it as needed to keep interest in the game and to entice new players.

However, the problem a lot of older players have with it is the increased benefit the NUB gives forgers, especially with BA now free.

Right.


Being a forger generally means you are limited to your refreshing BA. Buyable BA is not profitable for a forger, nor for a fighter - the reward is in experience, which forgers do not receive.

However, NUB forgers may forge using both their refreshing BA and their buyable BA, since the buyable is now free BA. That presents a certain unfairness, even disregarding the NUB bonus. I believe that would be the bigger point SNK4R is trying to make...

I certainly see nothing wrong with how N*B works fighting-wise. I am glad it is there to make things fair. However, it does tip the scales in their favor when it comes to forging. Then again, forgers are generally looked at as Jon's unfavored and unloved profession, so I doubt anything will happen to make this fair again. (then again, he surprised me when that N*B percentage fix finally came, so who knows?)

Forsaken, what are your plans after your NUB expires? because i notice you don't have supportership. Makes me wonder a little bit what your gonna do in 3-4 months.

And if Jon made this game more for fighting than forging and wont make many changes to make the forging aspect of the game more enticing because its all about fighting, then why the NUBs get a bonus to it?

Forsaken has been trying to get someone to pay for her supportership for... almost a month now.

That is a complete crock.

I see people offering supporterships almost weekly.

YOU just made a post offering supportership for 1.5M.

Perhaps s/he is too cheap to pay the going price??

BTW,
I just offered Forsaken supportership for 1.5M.

the change to free ba for nub's was made to combat people using the nub as a cash machine from what i understood of it. with the current set up, assuming the worse case scenario and someone only playing to make cash, they can really still do this by forging with their free ba.

would it really hurt the honest nub's to not have a forging bonus? they could wait till the end of the nub to forge or use their cash to up things at the blacksmith. i think forcing them to focus on mpr would make the nub be more about what it was supposed to be about, catching up!

perhaps we should give more a forging bonus to just higher level characters, the way it was in cb1. they would still be working for the same goal, unless that goal is to just sell out.

While we're on the (off) topic of Supportership, I did actually make a thread as soon as I got 1.5mil CB$, which was about two or three weeks ago, if I remember correctly. I recently made a new one at an increased rate, hoping to snag someone to buy it for me ~__~.


Back to forging bonuses, what Dudemus says makes a lot of sense to me. It also goes hand in hand with the above-stated fact that there are a large majority of 'honest NUBs' who ARE actually using their bonuses to boost their MPR faster.

Pau1: I plan to enjoy this game to its fullest extent, and I plan on becoming a supporter as soon as I'm able to =P. I've heard a lot about the fightlist, and I'm running out of 100% CB targets to hit =[.

i like nub forgers, they are cheap, they are fast, and they do good work, so what if they want to forge there whole nub. There choice isn't it?

You obviously haven't read all the posts in the thread.

i agree fully with dudemus. nubs get a bonus to catch up, otherwise if they are using it to forge they are prob just someone who already sold out and will do so again. yes im making a statement saying they are prob someone who has already played cb2.

I'm a little confused. When BA became free, monetary rewards were cut by 60% so that there is no difference in the amount of money being received by a player. Forging efficiency should be based on this same value. So a player with a NUB that is forging should be forging at a 60% rate compared to prior to the change. Or am I missing something?

Your not mistaken NS.

Still 60% of a lot is still a lot, magnified by the fact all the "Get More BA" is now completely FREE.

The Free aspect of the BA is the killer to normal forgers.

It shouldn't be magnified, though, by the free aspect. The net amount that a NUB could forge (increased efficiency, expensive BA) is the same as currently (reduced efficiency, free BA). If a NUB in the old system forged and bought, he'd make X progress. A NUB in the new system, forging and buying the same amount, will make the same progress (relative to the cost of BA as applied against the cost of the NW gained.)

Henk, you just proved why its not fair to the rest of us with that statement there...

Ok, i wasnt that upset with this until i just went to look at the top forgers for 24 hours and saw and 100k MPR NUB with 1.1M forged..... Ridiculinsane...

For the behalf of Sut:

Jon,

Can you pretty pretty please with a cherry on top take a look at this aspect of the game and please try to address it or at least explain why it needs to be as such.

Thank you so very very much from the bottom of my heart!!!!

I know I haven't been around for a while, and it seems that I came back at a bad time..

It looks like all these NUB sellouts are driving the price of $CB down substantially.. I can think of at least three ways that someone could go to a new computer, play a NUB character for a while, then sellout. I'm forseeing the great depression coming along soon..

I could rant for a while, but Ranger and others have basically addressed my concerns. At this point, I'm not really seeing a good way to get all of this cash out of the economy..

"At this point, I'm not really seeing a good way to get all of this cash out of the economy"

Weapon decay would help. Make any weapon that is equipped that is above your WA to lose NW with every BA spent (either by you or by someone else against you). Maybe every BA or every 5 BA or something reduces the 'x' by 1 until it is below your WA.

This way it only hurts USD spenders and not normal players that can't keep up with USD spenders.

Lets all be honest now, new players don't need to forge at exceptionally high levels, so why are they getting this option. Why can't I get a boost in my forging? I deserve it to. I'm not going for the #1 spot either. I'm trying to make CB$$ too. Am I not the same as an NUB forger now. I want free forging BA too. So do the rest of us.

There's a good old saying I use, and probably many others,

"If it ain't broken, don't fix it"

IE lets concentrate on aspects of the game that need fixing, rather then parts that don't.

When will you fix this bug in NUB forging Jon? It is a bug right?

"When will you fix this bug in NUB forging Jon? It is a bug right?"

He's commented before that if a NUB user chooses to use his bonus on forging, that is his choice. It's not a bug, it's a conscious design decision.

Conscious you say? From the look of things maybe someone was sleeping when that section got coded??

Sorry for the double post but it seems to me that the NUB brought about the problem of people breaking the rules and making other accounts in order to abuse the system for monetary gain.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, did CB take a step backwards when this whole forging deal got implemented?? Lets be honest, its made it a hell of a lot easier for multi's to be rewarded.

More work for the admins eh?

Forging for 24 hours
kingfisher ($1,587,298) - 300k MPR NUB
gbeta ($1,160,549) - 1.1M MPR NUB
un5een ($1,126,129) - 686k MPR NUB
Forsaken ($891,689) - 472k MPR NUB
3Dilbert ($681,173) - 65k MPR NUB (AWESOME!!!!!)
Realm ($568,877) - 630k MPR NUB
{cb1}smallpau1 ($536,161) - 1.8M MPR retired NCB...

How cool is that! And if Jon wont change stuff to forging when changemonths come around because CB is all about fighting, then why do NUBs need to get a boost to it? GIVE THEM ONLY WHAT THEY NEED!!! Or give econ clans a little bit more please! Or that you have to be in an econ clan more than one week to get the gains/rewards AND be able to forge.

"did CB take a step backwards when this whole forging deal got implemented??"

You do realize that it's been like that since the NUB went live sometime around the 5th of January, 2005, correct? It didn't "get implemented" anytime later.

I'm aware of that Nighstrike. I was aiming it more towards the free BA that is used on forging

And why isn't amount of NW forged per BA linked more directly to MPR?

'And why isn't amount of NW forged per BA linked more directly to MPR?'

It is, however the NUB bonus % gets added to that.

IE, the NUB is now about 170%, so NUB forgers forge at 270% that of equivalent non NUB forgers of the same MPR.

Add the free BA they get and it is a travesty.

Well, linked to MPR, yes -- the problem is that forging ability doesn't grow that much with higher PR.

I would _totally_ be on board with widening the curve on how much MPR affects forging. Hell, make it linear. Right now, someone one-tenth my size can almost forge as much as me -- that's base. Add in a bonus and free BA, and Ranger has the perfect word choice: travesty.

Now, if the bonus were just a BA pool, with all other rewards (to fighting, forging, etc.) being exactly the same... Would even involve the same "effort"...

"the NUB is now about 170%, so NUB forgers forge at 270% that of equivalent non NUB forgers of the same MPR."

No, forging efficiency dropped significantly when the BA cost became free. If the bonus to XP is 170%, then the bonus to cash (and the likewise bonus to forging) is far from 270.

"I was aiming it more towards the free BA that is used on forging "

As I am trying to get across, there is no difference between the abilities of a NUB forger now and prior to the free BA change. Their capabilities are identical. The only difference is that more of them do it. What they can do remains the same.

When BA became free, cash rewards were cut 60%. So the rate you could forge before and after the change is relatively the same. It's equivalent.

What this means is that if you have a problem with a NUB forging *now*, then the same problem existed with a NUB forging *then*. That means that any issues due to NUB forging have *nothing* to do with the free BA. The original post tries to link the two, and they should not be linked, as the change to BA cost did NOT affect the forging results directly.

If it goes from costing money to free and the bonus stays the same. How on earth would it significantly drop?

Because the bonus was reduced for cash rewards. Didn't we go through this several times already?

Actually forging was reduced to 80% of the previous amount.

I think NUB forging has probably increased in efficiency somewhat but I do agree with NS in principle. It really comes down to the same old arguments about the NUB, nothing really new here. It just takes stuff like this to make people take notice of the state of play.

Sorry one more post :) ie if forging was reduced to 60% rather than 80% it would just be a bit more time until we saw the kind of numbers we see now.