bots (in General)


Ancient Anubis December 1 2007 5:38 PM EST

just a quick thing whta would happen if we removed the bot checks and gave everyone a universal forging and fight integrated with the account. As it is the ba rate has been slowed down so everyone can play easily so u don't have to use the bot. Also with the bots u would still have to have reasearched and set up a fightlist or set up the item u want forged in order for the automation to work. A lot of games are anti bot because they make it unfair for people who don't have access to compete with those who do so why not give an auto bot to everyone.

I honestly can't c a problem with this and just think those that leave for a week or so can come back and train some exp means more higher mpr characters being developed and u would still have to be careful with leaving it for this long cause fightlists are continuely changing with retrains and exp growth

QBOddBird December 1 2007 5:56 PM EST

You don't see a problem with someone leaving for a week and being up to par with people who never left and continued to fight the whole time?

smallpau1 - Go Blues [Lower My Fees] December 1 2007 5:59 PM EST

I can definitely "c" a problem with it, and OOB nailed it...

QBRanger December 1 2007 6:37 PM EST

But is cb not designed to give those who put in less time/effort every chance to get to the top?

Ancient Anubis December 1 2007 11:58 PM EST

obviously u didn't read the post i put up. Everyone gets a bot hence no disadvantage i was pointing out the problem before hand where only a few people had a bot. Those that log on comtinually do so to change strat, buy things or to chat but no one is disadvantaged by work and life commintments when i t comes to fighting and forging hencing leveling the playing field.

QBOddBird December 2 2007 12:04 AM EST

I see.

I assume this idea of yours involves rescaling everyone back to zero, otherwise those who are ahead will never be caught, with everyone moving upwards at the exact same pace...

Ancient Anubis December 2 2007 12:10 AM EST

u could reset people back to zero but u could make the ba pricing for bought ba a lot higher for those at the top and cheaper for those at the bottom to boost growth. I wowuld like to c ba cost 100 per 100kmpr or something similar

[P]Mitt December 2 2007 12:20 AM EST

No.

The whole purpose of the game is to reward people who put in the time. The change to the 10/20 BA refresh rate was to make it easier for the general audience target of the game to play.

In my opinion, and to be honest, this suggestion is even worse than the FORS.

Ancient Anubis December 2 2007 12:25 AM EST

no the whole point of this the developement of game strategy for competitive gameplay which can't occur if part of the community is adavantaged by having less responsibilities then the rest of us and so can put more time in. This idea counteracts this and gives equality to all. why should a fifteen year old who has to go to school get an advantage compared to say myself who works 70hours a week plus and has less free time.

Fanta [Fanta's Forge] December 2 2007 12:40 AM EST

Because that guy spends more time here, he obviously has an advantage. And that's completely fair. I don't see how this game would be competitive if a bot fought/forged all the time for you.

Tylan December 2 2007 2:17 AM EST

Bad idea. Thats like saying the person who spent 7 years in college getting their degree should make the same as the person who dropped out of highschool.

If a person puts in the effort to be here they should be rewarded. If the can't be on all the time, thats not anyone elses fault but that person.

And yes, i'm one of those people that can't afford to spend every single day on here, as I have a job and family as well, but it's a GAME and I accept that fact.

Life's not fair. Get over it already.

Hyrule Castle December 2 2007 2:25 AM EST

how about... no!

like a wise man once said

"if you don't have time to play the game and have to bot, don't play at all"

NotSuitablForChildren [Yeeeaahh.................] December 2 2007 3:02 AM EST

Horrible idea. Just play the game.

Khardin December 2 2007 3:09 AM EST

Or you could make a script that edits the pages you view so it looks like you are #1..

Though it would be nice if I could have a bot go to work for me and I could just pick up the check.

Flamey December 2 2007 3:24 AM EST

Currently you can just log on every 7 hours or so. How can you not have the time? Get a phone with CB access, burn BA on the way to work (if you take public transport) or before you leave for work. Burn BA during your lunch break and burn BA when you get home, you won't be missing much BA at all.

Ancient Anubis December 2 2007 3:36 AM EST

someone close this post please its become apparent peoples views and the comments are becoming repetitive and unneeded

Devenger [/me Forge Stuff :D] December 2 2007 4:16 AM EST

'repetitive and unneeded'?

Your opinion is repetitive and unneeded. CB works TYSIWYG (Time You Spend Is What You Get) fashion. This is an effective system, because it encourages players to go online. Trust me when I say that games that allow too much automated play tend to be barely played - if you didn't notice, this isn't a 'log in 5 minutes a day to spend income' game, this is an active participation game with limits on number of physical actions, but no limit to the amount of trading you can participate in, and this is a much better game for it.

Let's suppose fighting and forging were automatic (fighting you would set up a favourites-style fightlist, forging you would do one cycle which would then be cloned whenever enough BA is available). What would happen to the game? It's quite simple. THE PLAYERBASE WOULD DIE, AND TAKE THE GAME WITH IT. If people didn't need to go online fairly often, nobody would bother doing all the things that make CB better than your average browser-based MMOish thing - namely chatting, auctioning (and other trading), forum/thread posting (!), and ultimately constructing a community. With no chat (or no reason to), and effectively constant growth, the game would entirely become a how long you have been playing affair. The Wiki would be the only community-driven thing worth looking at, and that doesn't make an interesting thing to do other than spending exp.

If you made decisions, you'd make a completely fair game, to the extent that there's no element of playing. I'm sure there are games on the internet for players like you, so please go find them instead of trying to change a successful formula.

Khardin December 2 2007 4:39 AM EST

you could have your bot read the forums for you too then you wouldn't have to read repetitive and unneeded opinions about anything

Armageddon December 2 2007 4:56 AM EST

How about if...

1) You gain no money while fighting.

2) Forge fees are doubled.

3) Forge efficiency and exp is reduced

4) Costs money to use program

You can use it, but no great reward comes free.

j'bob December 2 2007 5:47 AM EST

Based on what Devenger said, I didn't spent nearly as much time online (at the game) at first. then as I did spend more and more that was when I got more and more into reading the forums and eventually actually... chatting!
If you're not active in the fighting and such... you're probably eventually gonna find another game or something to occupy your time.

Cube December 2 2007 6:56 AM EST

Running a bot is simply not playing a game. It's that simple. Other than that chat would die completely.

QBsutekh137 December 2 2007 10:34 AM EST

@Ranger: No, that is not how CB is designed. Just wanted to make sure you got the accurate information you are asking about. Thanks!

QBRanger December 2 2007 11:28 AM EST

@ Sut:

Does not the NUB apply to my last statement.

Those who play 4 months are given the same opportunity to get to the top as those who have played for almost 3 years now?

Clicking almost 1M times vs less then 100k times? Seems like a lot less time/effort to me.

The change from a 6/10 to 6/20 BA regeneration rate? Does that make it easier for those who do not play as much to keep pace? Used to be you could burn more BA then most people and gain on them. Now there is virtually no chance due to the fact everyone can burn max BA.

The re-introduction of supporter items? Forget letting those who have played for 3 years have an advantage. Let us just give the best items to the new players. Forget about having them actually have to pay for them with their 500k/day CB2 windfall the NUB is.

What about letting NUB forgers basically blow the doors off older forgers. Forging over 3x what someone with 3x their MPR can. Seems like less time/effort to get/build a decent forging character to me.

Seems like a lot less time/effort to me. But what do I know. CB2 is a game where you can do just as well as the most dedicated players with a LOT less time/effort into the game. I have no idea how you cannot see this.

I still cannot understand why there is a not a floating benefit. Letting those at the bottom get higher rewards, scaling towards the top. Actually make people play for a year at least till they have the decent character.

QBsutekh137 December 2 2007 11:54 AM EST

Ranger, I was simply trying to make you state your case instead of you asking something clearly ludicrous, insinuating that CB is intentionally designed as an exercise to make less work yield the same results. That is a disingenuous comment to make, making it sound like Jonathan doesn't care, or at best is capricious about how he tries to balance the game. That's not fair, and I wanted you to state your thoughts instead if asking a question in faux innocence, thereby building what I consider a very insulting strawman toward Jonathan. Here are some reasons I take issue with it:

-- The word "work" (or "time/effort"). Last I checked, this is a game. So, that means what we do here is "play", not "work". Those words not only have different meanings, they are the OPPOSITE of each other. If it seems only like "effort" to you, then I have a very, very simple idea for you. Take a break. Do something else. Go expend your "effort" elsewhere. If it's not fun (I don't see how just empty time/effort expenditure could be fun?) and you are still playing, then maybe you need to probe further into that and re-assess your time spent here. And if it IS fun, then what you are doing is called "play".
-- When you state the facts the way you stated them (in a sarcastic question), you are making it sound like the "less-work" (quotes because as I state above, playing CB is not "work" or empty effort) portion isn't there for a reason. As if Jonathan just likes making people reach the top without a foundational reasoning behind it. That is not true. You know as well as I do that the bonus is there to try to make the game appealing for new players and to allow fresh blood at the top (something you yourself usually profess to enjoy).
-- Non-constructive criticism: If you have an issue, state your ideas and ask politely for them to be considered. "Please" and "thank you" go a lot further than blatant, insulting sarcasm. Right way: "I understand why the bonus is there, and like some things about it, but these items <list specific items> are making me, a veteran, somewhat disenchanted (less fun). Other veterans can feel free to chime in if they feel the same way. Thanks!"

I can absolutely see what you see (now that you actually state it). What I don't see is a game designed for the primary purpose of not having to "work" or expend effort (otherwise known as "play"). Like I said, saying it that way is disingenuous at best and very insulting at worst. The most I could say about the bonus would be, "When I PLAY this game, the fun is reduced for me at times because certain aspects of the bonus detract in certain ways..." I'd list the ways, but I can't think of anything that bothers me about the bonus currently.

And to finish up, why isn't there some other way of balancing implemented? Oh, I don't know, maybe because Jonathan knows the game's design the best and is still trying to figure out other ideas on how best to address things? Could that possibly be it?

QBRanger December 2 2007 12:27 PM EST

Sut,

Many a person has very politely stated why the NUB should be modified changed. Still to this day nothing has been done. One gets only so far with "pretty please with a cherry on top"

IE forging. The NUB addition to forging has been brought to the forefront may times. Even with a "pretty please explain why it has been done". Still, has anything been done? Or an explanation of why it is so given? NOPE!

If you want to call time/effort=play fine. But do not state my time/effort=work as wrong. Simple semantics. You full well know what I am typing about.

I full well understand why the concept of the NUB is there. But as I have stated numerous times in the past, it is far too short given the play those who have been here from the beginning have done. Therefore my initial comment stands.

But how many times does one have to be super nice typing "pretty please" until I pass out, but nothing gets done. Sometimes a bit of sarcasm works wonders. Does for some other people who shall remain nameless.

But back to the THREAD I posted in. I was responding to someone typing that a bot would let people leave for a week and be up to par with those that continued to play. My post, while sarcastic, was 100% truthful. Those that put in less PLAY have the same chance to get to the top as those that put in more PLAY. So why not let bots PLAY. It seems that the people who actually have PLAYED from the beginning have very little advantages compared to those that started less then 4 months ago.

Please let me know how those who have been here for 3 years have a distinct advantage in the PLAY aspect of the game over those who have been here less then 4 months?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] December 2 2007 1:41 PM EST

sut brings up some very good points regarding courtesy and decency. sarcasm can also be useful when used humorously.

i thought i would take this opportunity to say kudos to jon! he has the ability to be swayed by data and facts and even sometimes to be convinced by sarcasm and whining. i think it comes down to an ability to put aside all personal baggage and look at the facts. sometimes the process takes much longer than we would like as a player base, but it is usually done well and amicably.

so thanks again jon, for being our creator, you rocketh greatly! oh, and back to the topic of bots, jon has made it clear his feelings on these i would think.

QBsutekh137 December 2 2007 2:23 PM EST

I feel my longevity has an extreme advantage.

If you don't, then I'm sorry, but I can't define community for you (and would be very surprised if I would have to). Being here is a privilege that Jonathan has created. I have had the opportunity to meet and befriend people from multiple continents in a multitude of connective ways (chat, forums, tactics, etc.) for more than four and a half years.

That's something a new player can only get over time. If they use their bonus then sell out, I firmly call that "their loss". Why would someone else running up some cash and then selling out bother me?

I have stated numerous times where I stand on the bonus: that it should be a BA pool, not a timed span. I rarely get much of a response from anyone, including Jonathan.

I do not believe delineating the difference between "play" and "time/effort/work" is semantics. It is the fundamental perception difference that powers people's viewpoints. I am not talking right/wrong -- everyone is entitled to their opinion as much as I am. I am talking about the fact that some fundamentally view the game differently than the folks who are here to "play". You have often talked about the work you put into Koy, especially if anyone has the audacity to recall that your purchased Koy (and are quick to then say how much "work" you had put into TAB before that).

For someone who doesn't see this game as work, effort, or anything like that (the folks who see it as a fun, honored privilege), comments like that are often confusing because of the very basic difference in schemas being employed.

I agree that humor and sarcasm are great, and that others have had luck with it. As with anything, sarcasm is a great tool when used properly. I did not think your approach was fair to Jonathan, and I never remain quiet when I feel that way.

I think bots are a bad idea and I think the bonus should be a pool of BA. I have never heard a more consistent stance on the bonus than that. As for when Jonathan will (if he does) change anything, that's not for me to decide or harp on. I'm just going to go keep exercising the wonderful privilege I have to play this game, and Jonathan can take as long as he wants to do whatever he wants.
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