AMF needs some love (in General)

Relic December 8 2007 7:02 PM EST

Why you ask?

I just CM'd horseguy001 and asked him how much exp he had trained into his CoC on his NCB Character.

His reply (and I hope he doesn't mind that I share) was "about 20 mil".

I haved an AMF that has 21.58mil exp trained into it. This is to help negate the massive damage DD does at high MPR.

Now before you look at a sample battle, reason with me, should a 20mil exp CoC be blocked completely with a 21.58mil AMF. In this case of exp just about equaling exp, I think it should.

Let me show you a few snippets a battle against his character.

Number One (jabberwocky) defeated MrMunch after 7 rounds of combat

Peanut cast Antimagic Field on Thanks JW! (0.52)

horseguy missed Peanut

horseguy missed Peanut

horseguy missed Peanut

Thanks JW! takes damage from his own Cone of Cold (299653)!
Thanks JW!'s Cone of Cold hit Peanut [187058]
horseguy missed Peanut

Melee Combat
Thanks JW! burns from the flames surrounding Peanut (239647)
horseguy absorbs damage [239647]
Thanks JW! takes damage from his own Cone of Cold (299653)!
Thanks JW!'s Cone of Cold hit Peanut [229125]
horseguy regenerated 69,105 HP

Thanks JW! burns from the flames surrounding Peanut (255501)
horseguy absorbs damage [255501]
Thanks JW! takes damage from his own Cone of Cold (299653)!
Thanks JW!'s Cone of Cold hit Peanut [118878]
horseguy mistimed his attack at Peanut
horseguy regenerated 69,105 HP

Thanks JW! burns from the flames surrounding Peanut (186495)
horseguy absorbs damage [186495]
Thanks JW! takes damage from his own Cone of Cold (299653)!
Thanks JW!'s Cone of Cold hit Peanut [290550]
Thanks JW! cries "JW is the man!!"
horseguy regenerated 69,105 HP
R.I.P. Peanut R.I.P. Thanks JW!

Now, don't get me started on the whole PL/TSA exploit, and yes I said exploit. I do not think a PL character should be able to regenerate HP.

Look at the massive damage I still take from his CoC, and my AMF effect is only .52 with MORE exp trained into the skill.

Does anyone else see something wrong with this?

Ulord[NK] December 8 2007 7:05 PM EST

Notice that he has a NSC equipped. That'll throw your amf a few million exp back.

Relic December 8 2007 7:07 PM EST

A pair of NoS is cutting my AMF in half?

Ulord[NK] December 8 2007 7:10 PM EST

Oh and you are running an RoBF complaining about DD doing too much damage. I can't help but sense the irony.

CoC + single minion target = pain. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact, if the same Coc is spread over four minion teams and getting amfed like that, it'll probably kill himself before he kills anybody.

Think about this in term of exp concentration. If a single AMF is able to nullify any and all DD of the same level, there will be no point in training dd. Four minion mage team would also be entirely unviable. Not to mention the fact that DD can be further reduced by MGS, EH and AC. It's true that DD got a buff from the latest rescale. Buffing AMF like that would be ridiculous.

If you are running an RoBF team for this long, you should know who you can and cannot hit. Two minion CoC team? I'd never hit that. Not to mention NSC, the ultimate RoBF counter item. It's like trying to kill SMBF with EEMM.

Ulord[NK] December 8 2007 7:12 PM EST

A nicely upgraded pair of NSC cuts your amf by a good 12-15%. Someone did the math before and I'm not being exact here but that's a heck lot of exp.

Lochnivar December 8 2007 7:15 PM EST

His CoC is still doing more damage to him than to you....

If AMF just reduced incoming damage (no backlash) I might be inclined to agree with you.

Based on the above log:
Your 21mil EXP inflicted almost 1.2mil in damage.
His '20mil EXP' inflicted less than 900k in damage.

The splashback damage is considerable and on the whole I think it's pretty well balanced (I've gone mage in the past and currently am using a good sized AMF so I feel I'm a fairly impartial judge on this one).

Lochnivar December 8 2007 7:17 PM EST

And yes I'm aware of the reduction from the RoBF....

Relic December 8 2007 7:21 PM EST

Ok, for arguments sake, let's say his CoC has a 30% boost over my AMF exp, I nullify 100% and he still has 30% left over, and he uses a pair of NoS that negate another 10%. That means he would be getting 40% more exp bonus, and there is NOTHING I can use to boost AMF other than exp.

From the numbers, it appears closer to 38% bonus to his CoC, then his NoS applied, brings my AMF down to .52.

Sorry, but that is so imbalanced it is crazy.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] December 8 2007 7:25 PM EST

Are you including the bonus you get to Amf from your Corn?

Godpanda December 8 2007 7:27 PM EST

While we're at boosting AMF, why don't you just go ahead and make DD only cast through rounds 20-25.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] December 8 2007 7:27 PM EST

And also keep in mind... for Full amf reduction it is somewhere in the park of over 200% more amf than DD... so 52% isn't bad at all... considering I get lucky to give Conundrum about .07 from my amf...

Godpanda December 8 2007 7:30 PM EST

Okay, more civilly, what Loch said. AMF absorbs damage AND reflects damage back into the caster. And I don't see any posts looking to buff EC for the same reason...

Lochnivar December 8 2007 7:36 PM EST

Be glad you aren't fighting the EC vs STR battle... with the HoE, TG, TSA, BoM combo the trained EXP can be doubled....

On the brightside I have now added both characters from this example to my fightlist...... ~smile~

Flamey December 8 2007 7:41 PM EST

AMF isn't supposed to negate DD entirely. It's supposed to reduce damage and cause them to hurt themselves. I really have NO IDEA why on earth you're complaining. Doing more damage to himself than you, what the heck?

Yeah, lets give EC a buff. The effect is the same as level, so I only need to have an equal level EC to nullify anyone's ST/DX. It's just silly, I really have no idea what sort of logic you're using, I'm about to hurt myself.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 8 2007 7:48 PM EST

"Now before you look at a sample battle, reason with me, should a 20mil exp CoC be blocked completely with a 21.58mil AMF. In this case of exp just about equaling exp, I think it should."

No. At equal expenditure, it should stop about 50% of the damage done to you.

As it deals damage back to the caster.

Yours does;

"Peanut cast Antimagic Field on Thanks JW! (0.52)"

So it looks about right.

Flamey December 8 2007 7:50 PM EST

He's not asking if that's how it currently works. He wants it to work that way.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 8 2007 7:55 PM EST

And I'm disagreeing. ;)

With the same reaosns as given above by others.

EC at double the expenditure of your opponents STR will bring damage to zero (or close enough). It also reduces Dex.

AMF at double the expenditure of your oppoents DD will bring damage to zero. It also returns damage to them.

You cannot increase the performance of AMF, to make it have an effect of 100% at equal expenditure, without compensating in some other way.

Remove the backlash damage, for exmaple.

Wizard'sFirstRule December 8 2007 7:57 PM EST

are you suggesting that equal exp AMF/DD should negate 100% of damage and reflect 100% back?
so if you both have 20m xp, you get to do 100% to them and they do nothing to you? does that sound fair to you?

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 8 2007 8:01 PM EST

At 100%, AMF will reflect 40% Damage to your opponent for FB, CoC and MM. It will reflect 50% of the attackers current HP for Decay.

So currently, with equal expenditure, AMF will reduce incoming damage by 50% and refelct 20% of total dmage back to the attacker.

It does not, and should not reduce damage by 100% and reflect 40% back for equal expenditure.

TheHatchetman December 8 2007 8:01 PM EST

"Does anyone else see something wrong with this?"

No... not at all...

"It's true that DD got a buff from the latest rescale. Buffing AMF like that would be ridiculous. "

Umm... last I checked, AMF got the same boost DD did... they both grow at the same level they did before... DD got a boost to its damage for its linear growth, but large AMFs went up at the same ratio...

TheHatchetman December 8 2007 8:04 PM EST

"at the same levels" should be "at the same relative levels"

Tyriel [123456789] December 8 2007 8:59 PM EST

"Someone did the math before and I'm not being exact here but that's a heck lot of exp."

If I did my math correctly...

A +12 un-named pair of NS facing the example in the first post (21.58m AMF vs. 20m CoC), approximately 4.8 million AMF XP is negated.

If anything, the problem I see with AMF is that the NS are too strong. But, I guess that's balanced by the fact that mages seemingly have the short end of the stick pretty much everywhere else.

Anyways; if you don't like the way AMF works, don't use it. :) A .52 effect is not only ridiculously good, but combined with EH, MgS, RoBF, practically any other decent form of magic damage reduction, you can nullify plenty of XP and NW.

Flamey December 8 2007 9:16 PM EST

Removing .12 from AMF isn't a lot at all. No one is crying that NSC are overpowered, a lot use AG over them anyway.

TrueDevil [AAA] December 8 2007 9:40 PM EST

Well, this is kinda weird, that you only take the most powerful DD out there, and saying AMF needs some love, how about try to fight those with Magic Missiles ?

Seriously, If anything, AMF should be nerfed, the return damage is a bit too much, because seeing from your battle log, it seems that AMF is overpowered, taking more damage to yourself than doing damage to other people.... with just 0.52 effect, it should only happen at 0.7 and above or something...

Relic December 9 2007 12:23 AM EST

My beef is this, I am training 50% of my exp into AMF. He is able to not only spend a lot of exp on HP and other things but he still has enough damage to kill me. I am supposed to have one of the only single minion DD combatant strats there is, and I am still taking that much damage. That is what I have a problem with. I think the splash damage back is just fine, this is only one example. There are other battles where he hits me for almost 400k damage. Now I ask you, with the exp dilution he has on his team, vs. my relatively no dilution, I should just about be blocking his DD completely imo.

Flamey December 9 2007 12:31 AM EST

He's got a ToE/NSC and the most powerful DD that is the same level as your's. He is also ~200k MPR higher than you, that would have an effect. Plus he probably wasn't 2 minion right from the start. Then you still slam him. Plus you still beat him most of the time anyway.

He's using a lot of the methods of damage reduction he can for a mage, and you're only using AMF? MgS/EH? What about them? And all the other mage reducing items.

TheHatchetman December 9 2007 12:33 AM EST

also try to keep in mind his damage taken to himself would be well over double if not for the ToE he's wearing on the minion...

So you're complaining that you cant nullify the strongest DD spell in the game, backed by the only two possible ways to help against AMF?

ask him to remove his ToE for a test fight, and see how much blowback he receives, even with the NS, on. or for giggles, see if he'll remove both of them... odds are, he'd be hitting himself for at least 5 times what he's hitting you for...

Seriously dude, your AMF is doing its job. Only problem (for you) is that his equipment s doing its job as well.

Relic December 9 2007 12:34 AM EST

I am single minion, he has been double minion from the start. I cannot use an MgS, I use AMF. I also cannot use a EH, because then I could not use my RoBF.

TheHatchetman December 9 2007 12:36 AM EST

For the record, i was typing mine while Flamey posted... I wasn't just agreeing with him and trying to rub it in :P

Khardin December 9 2007 12:36 AM EST

You have nearly the same amount of experience trained in the skill as he does in the spell per what you stated. If AMF was more effective than doing damage and reducing damage dealt, it would be the most powerful DD spell out there. I'm not sure that was the intent of AMF.

But like you are talking about, you have a big AMF and use a RoBF and still receive considerable damage from the left over percentage. I've considered this a major weakness in the RoBF strategy since I started messing with it. As I gain MPR, so do my opponents. If they are focused enough in their DD spell, they will start to have a serious advantage. Even if they aren't as focused, their damage will rise faster than I can gain on the blocking side, i.e. the leftover percent, while smaller, will inflict more damage.

There's no spread for the CoC to deal with, and it's the most powerful DD spell available. For similar level AMF and CoC, I think you are still seeing quite a bit of reduction.

What could be changed about all of this and keep things balanced?

Cube December 9 2007 12:37 AM EST

How is training half Experience in evasion focused on fighting mages?

Iluvatar[NK] December 9 2007 12:44 AM EST

After reading all the posts here, this is basically the message I got:

Glory: By training half my exp into eva and half my exp into AMF, I should be able to defeat mage characters with MPR 200k above mine.

Everyone else: No. You really shouldn't. Especially when his choice of spell/equipment is geared precisely towards overcoming AMF.

Glory: Yes. Yes I should. Not only should I be able to defeat them, but I should be able to completely negate their attacks.

Everyone else: You do, most of the time. Considering your relative lack of support equipment and lesser MPR, you already get enough benefits.

Glory: No, I don't.

This argument ultimately results in a conclusion that a) AMF+RoBF combo is too strong.

Flamey December 9 2007 12:47 AM EST

Train Protection and throw on an MS if you want to beat him 100%. Or I dunno, get 200k MPR higher.. and I'm sure you'd win then as well.

TheHatchetman December 9 2007 12:48 AM EST

you could also try training a small protection (little bits go a long way, especially seeing as Protection's damage reduction is taken out before the RoBF's linear cut), and/or using a MS. yes, it would cut into your evasion and AMF a bit, but upped enough, it could also negate another 11-12% of DD samage. Again, this reduction comes before the linear RoBF cut...

TheHatchetman December 9 2007 12:49 AM EST

dammit Flamey! get out of my head! :P

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] December 9 2007 12:50 AM EST

I personally think the NSC should be used to solve the issues with the
MgS and RoBF... but the incredibly selfish nature of that request stops me...

TheHatchetman December 9 2007 12:54 AM EST

I, as a predominately tank-based thinker, and a player who's (personally) ultimate strategy involves a tank, on an AMF-using team, request that the NSC should be used to solve the issues with the MgS and RoBF. It's only

TheHatchetman December 9 2007 1:57 AM EST

I thought over the NSC thing and realized how dumb that sounded... Better it be a new helm or something like "Arcane Crown" similar upgrade curve and base of prechange HoC or even a HoE, PROVIDES AC, upgradable by Blacksmith only and gives a vorpal effect of 1-1.5% per +. Vorpal effect makes it ignore AC, Endurance, MgS/EH, and RoBF, AMF still works normally. And put a small penalty on the DD, like no more than 5% or so... I figure It's gotta be good if it's there at all because:

A) It should be a viable option over HoC in at least SOME cases...
B) It's a mage item, so you know it would have a PR weight of 0.5 or possibly higher
3)It's the new supporter item? :P

horseguy001 December 9 2007 2:22 AM EST

Don't know how I missed a thread on my strat XD I appreciate it though, a thread about a CoC mage that beats RoBF teams calling for a reduction...just wait until I get minions 3 and 4 and really hand it to RoBF users. I don't even have prot, more AC, and my CoI on yet *smile*

OK, a few things to start with. Yes I gave been 2 minion from the start, but my CoC mage has had a named RoE from the get go. Lately I have been giving 150 BA a day to my tattoo, but for the most part my mage has 50% more exp then my tank (well really a wall with a lot of str :P). Now, that gives my mage an effective mpr of around 950k or so, which doesn't put me too far off. Second, CoC damage is very large, my trained level = the effect, effectively giving me the most bang for my DD buck. Third, look at that backlash damage! That is with my ToE on as well, it is very high.

About who did the math on NSC, that was me. Search for the thread, I didn't make it too long ago. I am basically an anti RoBF team, and I am not even at full strength yet. I get licked (right now anyways *grin*) by multi minion teams chalk full of enchanters and mages, due to spread and dieing from my AMF backlash.

So in response to the initial post from the team involved, nah...AMF is just fine the way it is. You are just fighting a team that is optimized to pick on the RoBF (at half strength to boot).

QBRanger December 9 2007 7:51 AM EST

Taking 225k average damage from a 1.7M CoC as a single minion is nothing.

It has the potential to do a million damage to single minion characters.

Be very happy you take out one of his minions and are close to beating him. If your MPR's were the same, you would have an excellent chance to draw or even beat him.

The title of the thread should be "Damm, the RBF is too powerful".

QBRanger December 9 2007 8:03 AM EST

And by the look of your fightlogs, I think your already beating him 75% of the time.

Quite an achievement for being 1 minion vs his 2 and 200k MPR less.

QBRanger December 9 2007 8:04 AM EST

And at almost 1/3 his total NW.

Damm that RBF is quite powerful.

AdminShade December 9 2007 8:08 AM EST

Now before you look at a sample battle, reason with me, should a 20mil exp CoC be blocked completely with a 21.58mil AMF. In this case of exp just about equaling exp, I think it should.

I think it shouldn't be blocked completely but as far as I can see it blocks a bit more than half, so imo this is right.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] December 9 2007 10:04 AM EST

no a 21.8mil AMF shouldn't block a 20mil CoC completely because AMF isn't designed to work that way.
Otherwise this CB is more tank blender and mages don't stand a chance anymore, and if you take in all the anti mage items in this game + 1.00 AMF casting , that would suck.
So too bad your RoBF (which still needs a very good nerfing!!!!!) stops only 20% of the damage and your amf stops only 50%. Go cry.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] December 9 2007 4:18 PM EST

"The title of the thread should be "Damm, the RBF is too powerful"."

I think you wanted to say "Damn, the Magic Damage Reduction of the RBF is too powerful".

I think we can all *nudge* *nudge* agree that the damage it deals is pitiful, compared to comparitivly equal levels of every other damage type. Even with it's nice facet of not triggering any return damage.

This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002IQz">AMF needs some love</a>