December 10 2007 11:27 AM EST
Just a little bit. I think it really needs it. The damage nerf was a bit too high!
December 10 2007 11:58 AM EST
Why? Care to crunch out some numbers? How does it do against the other big four? At what AC is it better than both/morg/bone/els? In what situation would it be more useful?
If you happen to own a VB, you'd better come up with some concrete evidences that the damage nerf is too high and by how much is it too high.
December 10 2007 12:00 PM EST
I'm pretty sure that there are still people that use them too.
December 10 2007 12:23 PM EST
At what AC is it better than both/morg/bone/els?
Wat is at an AC of over 450?
And atm with just over 1 mil ST, the full 60% Bloodlust and a X3500 named (so x3750 in effect) Vorpal Blade my average damage is well below 500k. against my fight list.
The Can Opener is just fine, it's the only way to beat the big ToE teams besides decay...
December 10 2007 12:25 PM EST
Yes, people still use them. But who really wants to unless you're fighting some of the top walls (or ToE teams) and you have 30m to boost your VB? MH is by far a better choice with its innate VA ability.
Although I must say that Jon did boost it after the original drop to 51 damage (I think it was 51...), I just don't think it's in contention with the others (BoTh, MH, BoNE, maybe even ELS).
As it stands now, the AC level for "VB better than ELS" is 246. I'm not sure what lvl ToE that would be equivalent to... not really sure how the ToE works really with its thresholds and damage reduction. What I'm trying to get at is that not everyone uses walls and ToE's (especially with the new wave of RoBF users)... which is the only place where VB's can make a stand.
I have an idea, maybe make the VB two-handed and increase it's damage. That'd be a fair change, right?
Oh, and about the researching part. Maybe I'll do research after my NCB, but not before! I'm just trying to raise an issue while it's change month. =)
The AC threshold is not why the VB is useful. It's over 300 -- I forget what, exactly, but Jon did post it for us back in some changelog. As novice pointed out, however, the real use of the VB is in fighting Endurance tattoos that are astronomically large.
December 10 2007 12:30 PM EST
Dreky, I honestly hope they won't make a VB 2 handed... it wouldn't feel right.
BoNE = 2 handed, highest damage
MH = 2 handed, high damage + VA
ELS = 1 handed, highest 1 handed damage
VB = 1 handed, moderate damage but 40% increase against AC
BoTH = 1 handed counter part of MH
December 10 2007 12:32 PM EST
Oh give it a boost; it's about time the ToE took a hit. (albeit a sideways swipe)
Uhh... The VB is... like... WORSE against ToEs...
See, the only way to get through ToE was to deal huge damage... Well... Snicker-Snack a 3 mil toE to 1.5, and deal half the damage a morg of a similar size would do and you're still not breaking the threshold AND you're doing less damage which gets lowered even more by the ToE.
It's too weak.
December 10 2007 1:16 PM EST
Well, with my current NCB character, I will probably switch my tank from UC ot Evasion/VB.
I think it will be very very effective. The HP damage done with the VB will just be a bonus next to the extra damage it will allow my RoBF to make.
"Snicker-Snack a 3 mil toE to 1.5, and deal half the damage a morg of a similar size would do and you're still not breaking the threshold AND you're doing less damage which gets lowered even more by the ToE."
What's the actual ratio of VB damage to BNE damage?
December 10 2007 2:59 PM EST
"What's the actual ratio of VB damage to BNE damage?"
Considering that a BoTH does about 1/2 the damage of a Morg and an ELS does about 1/2 the damage of a BNE, the VB is probably somewhere in the middle between the BoTH and the ELS.
December 10 2007 7:07 PM EST
VB is better than ELS at 246 AC, and better than the bone at 264 AC. This isnt factoring in Protection or endurance...
The VB-loving side of me would love to see a boost.
The Heavy AC + ToE-loving side of me would hate to see a boost
The non-biased Evasion-loving side of me (what does that side care, he ain't gonna get touched :P) Does'nt think a boost or nerf is necessary... It is right where it should be. In my Evasion-loving sides opinion, of course...
December 10 2007 7:14 PM EST
And i believe it ignores half of endurance... meaning, it is hit by the full reduction of a 3m endurance, but ignores half of the reduction...
I did a test with Ranger and Atomicboy a while back.
Ranger, with ~3.4m ST and a x12150 MH, hit Atomicboy's wall that had 410 AC backed by a large ToE for ~30-35k damage a shot.
I, with ~2.2m ST and a x4150 VB, hit Atomicboy's wall that had 410 AC backed by a large ToE for ~160-190k damage a shot...
This was after the VB nerf, with VBs working as they currently do...
December 10 2007 7:17 PM EST
please add "effect" to the end of my first sentence of my last post.
Sorry for the triple-post
Sure, against 300+ AC and a ToE, the VB is the better choice. But now many of those are there? You can't justify a piece of equipment by pointing out the 5-10 teams in the game it would be slightly better against.
I mean, the VB is just so weak. No leech, not enough damage against low AC teams. It's TOO specialty.This isn't like an axbow, or a MSK. Nearly every single team has a tank or a mage. NOT every team uses a ToE, or very high AC. An DEFINITELY not high enough or ToE to justify ithe VB's use.
December 10 2007 7:50 PM EST
I wasn't using that as an example of why the VB is viable... I was using it as evidence to support my "it is hit by the full reduction of a 3m endurance, but ignores half of the reduction" claim...
I've used it for almost every tank-based strat i've ever made, and while it won't do as much damage as other weapons, if you make the fight last long enough, it won't matter...
Furthermore, in the rare case of a huge AC minion backed by ToE, it is not only more useful than other melee weapons, it is the ONLY way to kill in melee...
Weaker than the other top 5 weapons?
In most cases, yes.
In my opinion, no.
So it's a niche item then. I don't see people calling for a big boost to an exec or kat. If you want more damage, you are going to have to use an ELS, and if yo want leech you will have to use a BoTH. If you want to do a little more then scratch ToE teams with AC and prot, you will need a VB.
Its worth noting that a VB wielding tank can still have success against any team, whereas non vorpal weapons have much less success against ToE heavy AC teams.
Coming from some one who has been using a VB for over a year now, I think my opinion (although it is an opinion) is valid, but that is subject to opinion as well :)
December 10 2007 8:07 PM EST
"Its worth noting that a VB wielding tank can still have success against any team, whereas non vorpal weapons have much less success against ToE heavy AC teams."
That's what i was trying to say :)
"Coming from some one who has been using a VB for over a year now, I think my opinion (although it is an opinion) is valid, but that is subject to opinion as well :)"
Don't get me wrong, I love the VB. I own two. So that's 2/2 as far as rare weapons are concerned for me. But I believe it doesn't stack up well enough against other weapons and a small boost to damage wouldn't be uncalled for. I mean... a Two Handed Flail does more bleeding damage against light AC teams!
Personally I don't think something like the VB should be a stand alone weapon, thats what the problem was before. Put one on and BAM can handle any team without much difficulty. Now it takes some planning to work one into an effective strat.
December 10 2007 10:57 PM EST
"Talion, 2:59 PM EST
"What's the actual ratio of VB damage to BNE damage?"
Considering that a BoTH does about 1/2 the damage of a Morg and an ELS does about 1/2 the damage of a BNE, the VB is probably somewhere in the middle between the BoTH and the ELS."
VB is actually barely weaker than the BoTH.
I am using Hatch's VB while he forges my BoTh currently, and it is almost perfectly double my X after my naming, which means it should do 1/4 more damage on the Maximum blow...doesn't quite make it there, but it is close.
VB doesn't truly need a boost. It's a BoTH with a ToE/AC/Protection cutter instead of a mini-VA, which is really a much more powerful ability. People just don't like that it isn't a one-handed BoNE with the AC cutter anymore.
December 11 2007 11:48 AM EST
"It's a BoTH with a ToE/AC/Protection cutter instead of a mini-VA, which is really a much more powerful ability"
I have to disagree with ya here. VA provides HP... everyone can use extra HP. Even starving kitten's. ToE/AC/Protection cutter is useful against SOME teams... not even close to all teams. I just think it's not up to par still.
Horseguy, you said you used one for a year. Are you not using one now? If so, why the change?
December 11 2007 12:58 PM EST
"VA provides HP... everyone can use extra HP."
I don't get any more challenge bonus or rewards when i end a fight with 600k HP as opposed to 300k HP... so while extra HP is nice... its not always needed... same for AC/Endurance/Protection-cutting ability... its nice, but not nessecitous...
"Horseguy, you said you used one for a year. Are you not using one now? If so, why the change?"
Kinda... he has it on a PL battery. If he were to discontinue its use entirely (which seems to be his intention, judging from the fact he's put it up for insta), I could only assume the reason for his change would be due to him using a CoC team...
December 11 2007 1:02 PM EST
BoTH is known to do less damage because it is a lesser of the big 4...
December 11 2007 2:09 PM EST
Horseguy has been a CoC team for awhile now (from day one?) ... so I doubt that CoC has anything to do with the reason he is dropping his VB. Also, you point about HP not being a necessity... what?
HP is THE most needed stat! Extra HP is nice? Yeah, it's also nice to not be dead!
I'd take leeching over slightly increased damage to certain specific teams. That's all I'm saying.
And Hatch was trying to say that winning by 500 hp or winning by 10 million hp is still winning... In other words winning is winning! Doesn't matter by how much hp you beat someone, as long as you beat them...
December 11 2007 2:37 PM EST
I get that. But what if you're winning by 500 HP... you certainly wouldn't be winning if you took away your leeching weapon. If you're winning by 10m HP then you're fighting a little low. The point I was getting at is this...
Leeching weapons are ALWAYS useful (maybe not when fighting a live PL minion) while a VB is only really useful against high AC + ToE teams. Why don't we make a melee weapon that does more damage against Evasion + RoBF minions (when you can hit em). Or a familiar seeking bow?
Actually, maybe a skill draining weapon? That'd be cool. But now I'm off topic.
December 11 2007 2:44 PM EST
"I doubt that CoC has anything to do with the reason he is dropping his VB"
I beg to differ. With magical AC being much less than physical AC, and his CoC dealing damage well above most non-capped ToEs and RoBfs his level, he's not too worried about high AC/endurance, nor should he be... Especially with the recent buff to the ability to level a powerful DD, he can maintain the trend of staying above AC and Protection... Only threat to that is MgS, and MH fears not the MGS... So he would do much better to get a MH and start sapping some more HP for his PL tank. Genius strategy, btw horseguy!
"Also, you point about HP not being a necessity... what? "
Many MH/Bth-using tanks would see no negative difference in their fightlist by switching to BoNE or VB... Teams that already have more than enough HP via AS, PL, heavy damage reduction, or even evasion allowing them to not get hit by other tanks...
Many tanks need the HP leech to win many of their battles. These are usually the tanks taking shots, or with lower HP... This is not to say it's bad practice, as both types of strategies have their place. But, it is to say the HP leeching ability is not a necessity, depending on situation. Just like the AC/Endurance/Protection-cutting ability of the VB is not necessitous...
December 11 2007 2:51 PM EST
My view on it.
What i really need more is the + of which the MH is easier to upgrade then the VB, as evasion is very hard to hit. Even in melee with a +201 MH and a 4.5M Ethereal Chains.
The upgrade curve is much cheaper on the MH. For my needs any of the big 4 weapons are preferable to the VB.
Yeah Hatch hit the nail on the head. I am going to be using a decay/CoC combo to mash through heavy damage reduction teams, whereas on the Space Knights my VB was the main source of damage for that reason. I recently purchased a BoTH that will much better serve this team, since it will give my PL minion that much more HP. He has to keep my decay mage and my CoC alive in order for my team to do anything worthwhile :)
December 11 2007 3:57 PM EST
As I remember if I minion has PL, it will not gain hp by a leeching weapon and/or VA.
December 11 2007 3:59 PM EST
So... basically what we're all getting at is...
MH > VB
BoTh > VB
December 11 2007 4:00 PM EST
PL "[a]llows Minion to absorb damage dealt to a companion at reduced rate." More specifically, for each level a minion has trained in PL, he can absorb 2 points of damage done to a teammate. "Reduced rate" means that for each 10 points of damage absorbed, he only loses 9 HP.
The other part of the description is, "interferes with life-drain attacks." This means that
* A minion training PL will get no benefit either from VA or MH/BTh
* Damage absorbed by a linked minion will not count towards an attacker's VA/MH/BTh.
Example: if minion X hits minion Y with a MH for 10000 dmg, but minion Z on Y's team has PL trained to 1000, the results are
* Z takes 1800 dmg (90% of 1000 x 2)
* Y takes 8000 dmg
* X gains 1600 HP (20% of 8000, instead of 20% of 10000)
Two more things to know:
* PL has no effect on GA or TBF "retaliation damage," or on AMF
* PL will redirect the effects of stat-draining weapons (axbow, exbow) to the linked minion, but only if the PL would absorb more than 1/2 of the damage dealt
I think that about covers it!
December 11 2007 4:02 PM EST
no... basically We're getting at:
MH/Bth > VB, situationally.
VB > MH/Bth, situationally.
If I haven't been able to point this out thoroughly enough already, i don't believe I can. You will never change my viewpoint, and I don't see me changing yours on the matter. Stalemate. :)
December 11 2007 4:11 PM EST
There are very few situations where the VB now is better then the MH/BTH.
I can really only think of one which is a high AC/TOE character. However, how many of them are there in all of CB?.
I can think of 1-Oxcha. In every other instance the MH/BTH is a better weapons, especially with its inate, non-dispelled VA.
But, think of it this way:
Would you rather have a weapon that rocks vs everyone but 1 or 2 characters or a weapon that rocks vs only 1 or 2?
That is why I chose the MH as my weapon of choice.
December 11 2007 4:13 PM EST
I agree 100%...
MH/BoTH > VB, situationally.
VB > MH/BoTH, situationally.
For my current NCB (2 minion UC tank / RoBF EC Enchanter), the best weapon would be a VB to replace UC.
For my previous NCB (single minion Evasion AxBow tank not using Dispel), a BoTH or MH was a much better choice.
"* PL will redirect the effects of stat-draining weapons (axbow, exbow) to the linked minion, but only if the PL would absorb more than 1/2 of the damage dealt"
It will also only redirect the drain if the PL minion has a positive stat. So if you've got a PL minion with 20 DEX/STR, and your tank minion gets hit with a stat-draining weapon, the first hit will go to the PL minion, but subsequent hits will affect the tank, since the PL minion's stat will have gone below zero.
December 11 2007 4:30 PM EST
the VB vs. MH/Bth debate has been solved! Thanks Aargh! :P
IR GENIUS! :P
Just adding a bit of damage that was left out there. I've got nothing to contribute to the whole VB thing since I've never used one, or even thought about using one.
December 11 2007 5:05 PM EST
True Hatch. It seems we do have a stalemate. Perhaps we can settle this in a game of chess, or checkers. Maybe Stratego (a personal favorite).
Well, I'm almost done with this thread but I just wanted to throw out another idea quick.
What if the VB had a rescale of its upgrade costs? This would not have to be a large change but maybe make it a little cheaper to upgrade it. Why? I don't know. To give it some love! I mean, it IS a supporter item so why not? It can be special! =)
December 11 2007 5:45 PM EST
"What if the VB had a rescale of its upgrade costs? This would not have to be a large change but maybe make it a little cheaper to upgrade it. Why? I don't know. To give it some love! I mean, it IS a supporter item so why not? It can be special! =)"
Again, as the owner of th 4th largest VB in the game, with intentions of taking it much much higher, I would love this. Unfortunately, I don't see it as necessary :)
As for chess, sounds like a great idea. I'll set somethin up with ya later :)
I have a nice BoTH for sale, come and get it. Suppose I am sticking with the VB, now high AC ToE teams will really get it haha
December 11 2007 8:06 PM EST
"The Morgul-Hammer (MH), Blacksword of Nan Elmoth (BoNE), Elven Long Sword (ELS) and Blade of Thuringwethil (BoTH) have equal upgrade costs.
The Vorpal Blade has a higher upgrade cost on both the x and + side."
I think it should be equal with the other Big 4 (or Big 5) weapons. Especially after it's nerf. Don't you agree?
December 11 2007 8:08 PM EST
That depends if Jon intended to make the VB equal to one of the big 4 weapons or just a tab lower.
December 11 2007 9:55 PM EST
After checking out pth upgrade curves at higher levels with the VB, I am now on the boat to give the VB some love...
While i still believe the VB is fine for almost all currently-used facets of the game, I've recently come to find (with some info from NS, thanks man) that after +192, the VB starts costing over a mil a point per +, while i believe edy is still paying well under a mil per point for his +225 MH... Kinda makes the VB sucky in the long run... Might seem like a really long run, but with chars over 3m MPR and tats over 6m showing up nowadays, perhaps "the long run" isnt all too far off...
December 11 2007 10:31 PM EST
I think this is all more of an argument for MH reduction rather than VB boost. I mean, if you push the VB up to MH level of usefulness, you'd have to boost the other three as well; as it stands MH is probably the all-around strongest of the Big Five, but I don't see the point of increasing another's power in order to equal it.
That is to say, I agree that the big five are not balanced, but I don't think increasing the VB's power is the way to deal with it.
December 11 2007 10:56 PM EST
Ability and damage-wise, I'm still with Hatchet in the "VB is fine" boat.
Now that I hear about how the upgrade curve works, that sounds like something that needs fixing. It sounds to me as though it was to offset its old overpowered slot in the Top 5, whereas now it has a 'fits in' slot....but this upgrade bit kinda pushes it to the bottom of the pack.
December 12 2007 4:00 AM EST
not sure where i got my information from (i coulda sworn it was accurate, otherwise i wouldn't have posted it, sorry!), but i just ran some numbers with DrAcO... and it turns out i was way off... The VB is actually a little cheaper than the MH as far as the upgrades to pth at 100, 150, and the curve seems to favor VBs as high as the mid-70s... With that being said, I go back to my opinion of VB not needing love... It has its place, and does well to stay there :)
December 12 2007 7:57 AM EST
Maybe help should be edited? I'm not sure who put that little disclaimer in about the VB being more expensive and whatnot...
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