About had it with CB and evasion. (in General)

QBRanger February 8 2008 5:55 PM EST

I thought the AoL would be a savior of sorts. With its PTH bonus, perhaps it would be a foil to evasion. How wrong I was.

+11 AoL is over 4.4M CB2.

With evasion, as a tank you basically have to give up 4 rounds to mages and evasion walls. That is so wrong. Let me give an example:

I have 3.4M MPR vs Draco and his 2.6M MPR. He has about 70% my MPR.

1/4 of his MPR is put into evasion while about 40% of mine is into EC to try (and only try) to reduce his defensive dexterity.

My pluses to hit:

+220 named MsB = +227 with naming
+5 named arrows = +18 with naming
+11 AoL = +18
Total = +263

His evasion:
Evasion 5,658,200 2,978,000 214 165

My EC vs his evasion minion is over 6M effective.

I still only hit him 1/3 of the time in missile. If his MPR would be close to mine, I would never hit his evasion minion in missile.

Why should I have to get a huge melee weapon AND huge missile weapon to hit evasion?

Do you realize how expensive that is?

Do you realize that any non-USD player can never have a chance to hit evasion?

Do you realize that anyone without USD has no chance but to let a mage do them in? IE Soxjr, Lega, etc...

Do you realize that if you only use a bow, that is only have enough cash for 1 weapon, your forced to use a melee weapon to hit any decent evasion minion? Since you get a -60% CTH in melee using only a missile weapon.

Do you still not realize that evasion is so unbalanced?

And please do not give me this "it is the only way to combat USD", That is such garbage it smells up all of CB.

YOU February 8 2008 5:58 PM EST

Yup, this is the only way to combat USD
J/k of course.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 8 2008 6:00 PM EST

do you realize that jon hinted at changes to evasion today?

"And please do not give me this "it is the only way to combat USD", That is such garbage it smells up all of CB. "

as i have asked you in the past, what do you propose as a counter to usd then, only more usd? didn't you think that was ridiculous in the robf?

{cb1}Linguala February 8 2008 6:05 PM EST

This is neither the time or the place to make jokes.
Evasion is seriously overpowered, let me repeat that...
Evasion is SERIOUSLY overpowered.
And the time is already due to fix it.

QBJohnnywas February 8 2008 6:05 PM EST

So basically what you're saying Ranger is that up against the number 1 active evasion you still hit? And you're complaining?

QBRanger February 8 2008 6:08 PM EST


Jon hinted at changes to the single minion RBF/evasion combination.

Many do not use that.

He stated nothing for evasion itself. Unless I misread something.

Again, there is a point where little xp trumps much xp and/or USD is wrong. This is certainly one.

I cannot believe one cannot see how such little xp, compraitivly can trump a bunch of USD AND a lot of xp. Ethereal Chains is the only counter to evasion that I know of aside from the TOA and USD. What else is there?

Mikel February 8 2008 6:10 PM EST

Let me finish that sentence for you:

"What else is there that won't result in a Stalemate?"

QBRanger February 8 2008 6:11 PM EST

Yes JW, I am.

Wait till YOU is 1.3M or so MPR with all evasion. I will never ever hit.

Considering I hit only 1/3 the time, you cannot see how bad it is?

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 8 2008 6:17 PM EST

i haven't disagreed with you at all, asking how i cannot see it is just misleading. my question to you is what do you then propose as a counter to usd? we have one now, it may not be the best but it does work somewhat. do you just not want a counter for usd or do you have a better solution?

YOU February 8 2008 6:17 PM EST

"Wait till YOU is 1.3M or so MPR with all evasion. I will never ever hit. " - that's a little overstated, my friend.

DH February 8 2008 6:19 PM EST

Ranger, in response to the RBF/Evasion comment.

Sut said: "Then you might want to get around to considering an Evasion or RoBF nerf (or both), or else there might be a preponderence of something even MORE boring: single minion RoBF teams! *smile* "

Jon said on the next line: "Yes, I am considering what to do about that next changemonth. "

I dont see anything about him favoring one or the other. maybe all hope is not lost man. I just see Sut pointing out the Overpoweredness of both skill and item as well as the retardly high effectiveness of them combined. I might interpret it differently though...but it seems like he made a blanket response to the overall problem, not specifically to the RBF.

Mikel February 8 2008 6:19 PM EST

How so is that overstated? I'm only able to hit you in Round 3 as well.

YOU February 8 2008 6:22 PM EST

because the new amulet just granted you at least 100$ free in weapon NW.

QBRanger February 8 2008 6:25 PM EST

First of all YOU is 750k MPR and I miss him the first 2 missile rounds.

Double that MPR and I will miss completely.


There should be some counter, but evasion has to be toned down. When a non-USD person can never have a chance to hit evasion, even someone at 750k and growing fast, it is way overpowered.

There is a balance between combating USD and still letting the game be fun for non-USD spenders. Evasion is way over the line. Have you not read Soxjr's posts? How fun is CB for him? You can argue that "how fun is it for mages getting killed in missile", which is a perfect question. But something has to be done to balance it and it is way out of balance now.

It is not like I am not devoting a HUGE % of xp to TRY to counter it. It is not like I am saying "I cannot hit, but am doing nothing to combat it".

One solution would be to let EC work extra vs evasion.. Give it a non USD counter. Right now, I cannot break through his evasion's defensive dexterity with 40% of my xp into Ethereal Chains. I realize my PTH is countered by evasions negative PTH. That is fine, NP. However, why not make something that is not USD be a viable counter.

Now you can say "what about Soxjr?". Another great point, however, he chose to get with 1 minion and that is the downside. He still can hire another minion, or stay as he is.

Please do not think I am advocating EC since I use it. Make it something else, I will unlearn and relearn as I have in the past.

But something has to be done.

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] February 8 2008 6:27 PM EST

Wait ... YOU has gone back to being a him?

chuck1234 February 8 2008 6:28 PM EST

Nope, YOU is still The One ;)

YOU February 8 2008 6:30 PM EST

it's not always about you. I am sure if you untrain to 20 HP and put it all in DEx you will hit me 1st round. but would you do so, that is a different story.

QBRanger February 8 2008 6:31 PM EST


The way I read the changelog, Jon was typing about the single minions being boring and responding to Sut's single minion RBF/evasion comment.

I sure hope he is considering changing/modifying evasion in 1 month.

YOU February 8 2008 6:31 PM EST

Ranger forgot , Bast ! ::P

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 8 2008 6:32 PM EST

i have said many times that i think three things need to be done for balance as well. tone down evasion and ranged damage (fixing beleg's along the way) and also making some kind of weapons cap like mtl (it would have to be more restrictive than mtl to be useful and unlike mtl i would actually like to see it function in all of the game, not just the pre 6/20 phases.

for future reference ranger when you make statements that basically try to reduce your "imagined" opposition to having no legs to stand on, such as your garbage comment above, state why it is garbage rather than just claiming it as such and also state what you would have in its place. i have no argument with fixing things and them being better than they are now. i just don't want to change things and have them be worse, in effect no counter to any part of the game (we thought the robf was bad with few counters).

i am going to try very hard to wait until i see what jon does before joining many more of these debates, so have fun gang!

Tyriel [123456789] February 8 2008 6:32 PM EST

"it's not always about you. I am sure if you untrain to 20 HP and put it all in DEx you will hit me 1st round. but would you do so, that is a different story."

The rest of society would like to object to these sentences.

QBRanger February 8 2008 6:32 PM EST

"it's not always about you. I am sure if you untrain to 20 HP and put it all in DEx you will hit me 1st round. but would you do so, that is a different story."

And I would hit for about 1k damage a hit with 20 strength.

Imagine if I did not have EC, I would need over 7M dex to have a chance to hit you in the last missile round.

You use the evasion/RBF strategy, how can you now say it is abusive? What a hypocritical statement you make above.

DH February 8 2008 6:37 PM EST

yes i read it that way too. but it seemed to me that he was being very general in the way he responded to it. i think if he was specifically refering to the RBF he would have said so in his response. but thats just my opinion. he also said he didnt want to make the Single Minion Teams unviable, but that he thought they were boring. well, theres a ton of SFBM's out there that support evasion only, without a RBF. I feel that he was meaning he was going to take a wide angle look at the issue. I might be way off. its just an observation though. besides in all honesty i was trying to find an angle that would give you some hope cause it would be a shame if you ended up "had it" with CB and evasion. i think we all know what that would mean.

YOU February 8 2008 6:39 PM EST

i meant for "The Grid" minion you have. but yeah whatever! we all know the problem, i am not here to say "nothing wrong with it". More of "figure out how to fix" is better than 300 posts (yawn) of the same thing.

QBRanger February 8 2008 6:45 PM EST

Well right now, those who believe evasion is fine use the statement "it is a counter to USD". Which is a fine argument.

However, what about those that do not use USD, they have to have something to equal the playing field.

So make EC work vs evasion as a multiplier that evasion gets.

IE in the first missile round EC gets a 2.333 bonus to its effect on evasion. etc...

Or make another skill, true shot.

Or a different spell, but something to counter something that is way overpowered. Something non-usd spenders can use, and something that USD spenders will have to use to hit.

YOU February 8 2008 6:51 PM EST

My last post on the subject before i get forum banned for pumping post. The new amulet is already a nerf to Evasion, especially at high level game. Jon's intention to rewards multi-minion team is the same thing and penalized those does not, already reduce the evasion concentration. One tends to forget but 16+ point to PTH you mentioned would equals to months and months of grinding evasion above 180 points. and save tank millions and millions of upgrades. Right now the score is 1-1 in my book. it's a good fix. but tends to take more effect in the long run.

QBRanger February 8 2008 6:53 PM EST


+11 on the AoL is over 4.4M with another + 3.xx million.

And since evasion gets BOTH the defensive dex AND the minus PTH magnified in ranged that +11 is nothing.

DH February 8 2008 6:53 PM EST

I personally think that evasion is overpowered and i rely on it heavily. Im in the process of adding minions to my single FB mage team so i can eventually change my strat to something less...lame.

Synge [Memento Mori] February 8 2008 6:56 PM EST

I mentioned this in another thread also, but I think it is relevant here. Evasion is defense. Defense doesn't win battles unless there is an associated offense. If people can afford to put massive amounts of investments in defense, they deserve to be protected from whatever it is that the defense works against. The problem is the offense side of this equation. If all of your capital is invested in defense, you shouldn't have an offense that is effective. Evasion is fine if you have to trade it off with a skill that lets you actually win fights.

Regarding EC, note that EC also reduces strength, so it should not be able to beat evasion 1 for 1, since evasion is just dexterity (or an equivalent thereof).

QBJohnnywas February 8 2008 6:58 PM EST

That's a good point about EC, your effective EC against evasion is 50% of the total.

QBRanger February 8 2008 6:58 PM EST

"If people can afford to put massive amounts of investments in defense"

I almost fell off my chair from that.

Please tell me how Draco is putting massive amounts of investments into evasion.

1/4th his total xp. And about 25M NW in items. OMG, a massive investment.

Trivial compared to my EC and my MSB/arrows/AoL.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 8 2008 7:05 PM EST

EC already reduced the Defensive Dexterity granted by Evasion.

How about tying that reduction to the skill itself?

So EC doesn't lower the defensive dextiery, it lowers the skill. Lowering the minus PTH down to the level it would be of the skill post EC. But EC lowers it at the rate it does DEX, so 1/2 the trained level.

Etherial Chains should slow you down somewhat.

What I would also like to see is something to reduce the efectiveness of EC (and to a lesser extent AMF, what with the NSC).

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] February 8 2008 7:05 PM EST

"1/4th his total xp. And about 25M NW in items. OMG, a massive investment."

Actually I figured the total to be about 9.6 mil to give me almost 100% bonus to my Evasion ^)_(^

QBsutekh137 February 8 2008 7:06 PM EST

My thought on Jonathan's response is based on a couple things... The thought? Jonathan will fix it all. The basis? He always does, when given time. Jonathan has been, shall we say, a little bit busy trying to shore up what CB depends on -- an audience. Let's think about this: lots of display changes, CSS standardization, and Facebook interfacing (with a lot of people, me MUCH included belly-aching all the way). I don't know about you, but that kind of thing would take me probably 2-3 years to accomplish. And I don't even have a family.

I was careful about my query to Jonathan earlier today, because I knew I had his ear. (That's what Sutekh brings to the table.) So I mentioned it all (Evasion and RoBf, sorry, forgot ranged damage), knowing that a) Jonathan is a pretty bright dude, and b) He reads everything here, at least the important stuff.

So, before I proceed, let me take the lid off the pot and get some steam out. Ranger, I totally agree with you. Evasion is out of control, I understand your frustration. I use Evasion a lot and _still_ mentioned it to Jonathan, which I hope at least makes me appear slightly authentic. It's too much. Also, I lament that USD always comes up... At this point, it does nothing but to muddy balance discussions. I know you don't think USD should guarantee anything, but you also think it should mean something. I agree. It's part of the game, and I agree with you. MPR shouldn't automatically trump NW just because of that dirty, dirty USD.

Anyway, back to the main feature... I think Jonathan COMPLETELY sees what is going on, and he will fix this when he has time. My case in point? The AoL itself.

Who could have foreseen such an item? Has _anyone_ thought of such a thing? It's coolness. It's dynamism. It's offsets. I have two, and I was able to draw Mikel. The offset? Freed kills me in one round. *laugh* I love it! I am so dumb that earlier today I thought I should put on an AoI on my front minion to stop Freed...oh wait, I can't. Jonathan has made the Amulet slot MEANINGFUL. With a supporter item no less! Does no one else appreciate this paramount genius? Halcyon!

Anyway. Again. I think Jonathan is going to fix a lot of things, and I am going to start a different thread (to keep my thoughts focused) about what you say here, Ranger. Have a great Friday night and a great weekend, everyone.

Synge [Memento Mori] February 8 2008 7:15 PM EST

A 214 evasion seems like a big investment to me. All that investment could have gone into his DD. He could have put it into AMF. He chose to put it into evasion. That makes him strong against archers, but vulnerable to other things. Rock paper scissors.

As a mage team, I have found that some mage-haters can make builds that make it impossible for me to beat them, no matter how I configure my mages. Doing so makes them vulnerable to tank builds, though. (Mage shields, AMF, and mage seekers look pretty silly when staring down a Morg.) I can't see why tank builds should be any different conceptually.

It's not a problem if you can't beat him. It's only a problem if no one can beat him. Does anyone have any data on that?

QBJohnnywas February 8 2008 7:18 PM EST

Ranger lost one battle out about a 100 to DrAco in the last 24 hours; 1 battle lost against anybody actually. Two minutes after making this post apparently. Funny that. Made me smile anyway. ;)

QBRanger February 8 2008 7:34 PM EST


I lost due to disequipping my RBF. Draco cannot beat me since i have a large one, RBF that is.

However, to get 214 evasion Draco only had to use 1/4 his total xp. Put that into DD and it get nuked by AMF. Put it in AMF and he kills mages but tanks kill him.

Where can you put 1/4th the xp and almost neutralize all tanks except 3? All 3 have massive NW bows/MHs and a higher MPR.

A very small investment for a GINORMOUS return.

Sut, I was told in chat about a month ago, Jon stated evasion was just fine. And aside from the recent post, which can be taken different ways, nothing was ever mentioned by him that evasion was broken. AND a changemonth or 2 had already passed with nothing being done to evasion, despite many prior posts like this.

GL, I had hoped that EC worked on evasion PRE multipliers in ranged. However Jon clarified that up after a few weeks of my hoping. It would help a lot to have EC work on evasion pre multipliers. My EC would then nerf Draco's evasion which it should considering the fact I have far more xp in EC then he has in evasion.

Am I completely wrong in assume EC should be a foil for evasion if emough xp is spent, especially far more xp. I have almost 3x the xp in EC Draco has in evasion.

DrAcO5676 [The Knighthood III] February 8 2008 7:35 PM EST

QBJohnnyWas, 7:18 PM EST
"Ranger lost one battle out about a 100 to DrAco in the last 24 hours; 1 battle lost against anybody actually. Two minutes after making this post apparently. Funny that. Made me smile anyway. ;)"

Ranger took his robf off to prove that without it or his MH that I win due to my Evasion... considering without his Huge MH he can't hit me with his Msk or rarely hits me. Considering I have won a few defensive battles lately I also understand its only cause I have the largest Active Evasion and he uses my char to test several things.

QBJohnnywas February 8 2008 7:38 PM EST

Still made me smile. But not as much as this:

"Draco cannot beat me since i have a large one, RBF that is. "

Comment of the day. Thanks for that! ;)

QBsutekh137 February 8 2008 8:33 PM EST

No, Ranger, Jonathan (publicly, anyway) has only ever explained how Evasion was working (the dexterity part, etc.) even though he didn't have to. And he confirmed there were no bugs in it operating as designed. However, I have never seen him say he was adamant that the design itself would stand forever and ever.

Shame on me, I guess. Maybe I am reading too much into your tone, but I was genuinely trying to say I agree, and also explain my opinion on why I thought Evasion is probably going to be involved in fixes. In other words, I thought you were looking for an alliance in folks when you posted here, and I thought I was actually being an ally.

Like I said, silly me.

What do you actually expect when you post things like this? An unequivocal, global agreement? For a team that doesn't lose, and rarely even has to make many sacrifices to beat EVERYONE? I giggled like a third-grader just that I could draw with Mikel today -- small victories that I'm not even sure you understand anymore.

I posted looking for common ground. As far as I can tell, you posted looking for a congregation. As I have made clear on the "religion" thread, Sutekh don't play that. If all you are looking for is a group of sycophants, I suggest you look elsewhere.

Lochnivar February 8 2008 9:08 PM EST


I really don't believe Ranger had a strictly personal (I would venture it wasn't even predominately personal) agenda for this post.

Given that he has a good deal of unequipped NW and a lot of untrained xp I think he probably could hold top spot regardless.

This topic (unfortunately) has been heavily and vigorously debated at length with some accumulated rancor... and in situations such as this any guns not pointing the exact same way could be construed as 'enemies'.

Technicalities and rhetoric aside you both have stated that evasion is currently disproportionately effective and that is the essence of the thread....

I personally think this is a very good point as Sox's tribulations have illustrated. Also, and this is just my opinion, but I've got them impression that Ranger would enjoy more overall competition for the throne. (hence the suggestion of rolling bonuses for everyone not in first place).

Anyway, we all want CB to be fun and relatively balanced and I for one am happy at this point to leave it to Jon who has done so much good work.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 8 2008 9:20 PM EST

"Am I completely wrong in assume EC should be a foil for evasion if emough xp is spent, especially far more xp. I have almost 3x the xp in EC Draco has in evasion."

the problem that i have with ec being the counter is that it already does quite a bit as is. half of it is a strength drain the other half is dex drain. if you add in another aspect, it sure seems awful strong for an eo spell. unless i misunderstood and you are saying lower the amount currently drained from the stats and adding the other?

also, it can really only be dispelled by the person casting it, that would make it pretty darn powerful and possibly a requirement...much like evasion has now become. solving an overpowered skill by creating an overpowerd eo spell wouldn't help matters any. perhaps evasion just needs to be adjusted in its effect instead?

QBsutekh137 February 8 2008 11:08 PM EST

I'd like to leave it to Jonathan too.

lostling February 8 2008 11:20 PM EST

1/4 of his mpr = 650k MPR in evasion vs 1.36mill MPR in EC
650k MPR is boosted in the last round of range 1.33
= 864.5k MPR in the last ranged round
1.36mill only cast for half dex reduction
= 680k MPR in the last ranged round

P.s. not to mention MSB = 90% CTH

p.s. i have no idea how +11 AoL = +18 because from what jon said +11 = +11 PTH

p.s. jon has already stated many times that the game was supposed to be melee focused...(hence the 22 rounds of melee 21 with hoc vs 3 rounds of ranged 4 with hoc) so if you choose to focus on range and then scream that you cannot hit its kinda errm no point?

this is aside from items of course... but if you use effective levels im sure you will find the same thing

i never said what was garbage and what was not so yep... just pointing out a few (mistakes?)

QBOddBird February 8 2008 11:25 PM EST

To your third P.S. - he did?

Mikel February 8 2008 11:30 PM EST

Can you back that 3rd one up?

QBRanger February 8 2008 11:39 PM EST

Yes, I mistyped my AoL plus. Mistyped it by 7.

But where or where was it ever stated that CB was supposed to be melee based?

Obscurans February 8 2008 11:47 PM EST

Wait, do I hear that evasion multiplier in ranged rounds stacks directly onto the PTH penalty?

100k evasion ~ 40 effect => 200k evasion ~ 80 effect second round?

That would effectively break it.

QBRanger February 9 2008 12:04 AM EST


The effects multiply directly in ranged rounds.

IE if you have 100,000 (40) as a base the effects are:

Round 1 of missile: 233,333 defensive dex with 94 minus PTH
Round 2 of missile: 200,000 defensive dex with 80 minus PTH
Round 3 of missile: 166,666 defensive dex with 67 minus PTH
Round 4 of missile: 133,333 defensive dex with 54 minus PTH

Quite powerful, as both PTH and defensive dex is multiplied

Obscurans February 9 2008 12:13 AM EST

Well, I officially think it's broken now. Particularly the PTH multiplying directly

for 100k evasion, you get a net of 672k in round 1
467k round 2
309k round 3
189k round 4

Defensive DX multiplied doesn't worry me. What's worrying is that a skill can have ~6x (effective) effectiveness any day. Since exp scales are exponential, the problem is NOT solved at higher levels, and actually gets worse:

At 776k (-100 PTH), at round 1, it's 233 effective evasion for ~6M level (225=5.5M wiki). So, that's almost 8x effect. And it's horrendous.

lostling February 9 2008 12:15 AM EST

i was under the impression the level was multipled and then you find the new level?

and yes i distinctly remember jon saying that somewhere... i think its an old post about ranged "overpoweredness"

QBRanger February 9 2008 12:17 AM EST


I believed so also, but in a past post Jon confirmed that the level and the minus PTH is multiplied.

Now you think it is overpowered?

QBRanger February 9 2008 12:25 AM EST

Here is the thread with Jon's response to it:

In particular this is the reply that clears things up:

> If minus to hit wasn't multiplied by level, but instead by effect, that might explain what you're seeing.


QBRanger February 9 2008 12:29 AM EST


lostling February 9 2008 12:35 AM EST

/me will tell you what is more over powered :) DBs lol but actually no i dont see it as being that over powered... just that i realise that the PTH on a mage seeker is less then a million a + even at 200 ++ lol (kinda disheartens me) but knowing that evasion multiplies in that way i feel kinda better...
i guess its time for jon to tweek the numbers of the earlier ranged rounds again... (please god forbid do not change the multiplier of the last ranged round... in my oppinion thats low enuff)

QBRanger February 9 2008 12:45 AM EST

The cost of +'s on DB should be very close to if not parallel to that of the ELB.

Vs the MsB, they should be cheaper to upgrade.

horseguy001 February 9 2008 1:23 AM EST

If the effect was multiplied then Koy would never be able to hit me in ranged when I have my DB on my mage, but you can still score the odd first round hit.

lostling February 9 2008 1:37 AM EST

/me points out the 90% from msb AGAIN

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 9 2008 2:47 AM EST

horse: how the multipliers work when dbs are in play is a complete mystery... but every bit of evidence (and Jon's statement) backs up the multiplication of the effects of evasion rather than the level

Brakke Bres [Ow man] February 9 2008 6:42 AM EST

Not another evasion thread, life with it. Jon is going to nerf it sooner or later so stop barking up the wrong tree here.
We can't help it that evasion is sooooooo overpowered.
As soon as Jon manages to stop the overpowered elb and other overpowered ranged weapons!!!!!! Then start complaining about the overpowered evasion, Jeesz

Brakke Bres [Ow man] February 9 2008 6:50 AM EST

here is a good example why ranged is overpowered again:

Monkey Business B Ark (Trigger Happy) Monkey Business 15 6:43 AM EST

a 1.2mil mpr character manages to beat a 2.7mil character how is this not wrong?

QBJohnnywas February 9 2008 6:52 AM EST

I beat Bart's char in melee - it's the big morg and the giant ToA I'm wearing that do the trick; but evasion is also a huge help. I don't actually do much damage in ranged in that particular battle.

QBJohnnywas February 9 2008 6:54 AM EST

In fact, in ranged I only hit once out of 4 rounds.

It's my evasion.

Damn. Have I just helped Ranger's argument? lol ;)

Marlfox [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 9 2008 7:21 AM EST

Well, all I have to say is, if (when) Jon makes a change; it will all be due to your complaining ;)

QBRanger February 9 2008 8:45 AM EST

"Well, all I have to say is, if (when) Jon makes a change; it will all be due to your complaining ;)"

And wanting game balance is bad how?

Flamey February 9 2008 8:58 AM EST

It wont be due to all this complaining, there's been too much complaining about everything. We all get it, all the points and facts have been laid out. Jon barely listens to what we say anyway, so us bitching about it isn't going to make him change it.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] February 9 2008 12:09 PM EST

game balance or complaining your usd weapons cant hit?

Then tell me how do i need to protect myself against a huge USD weapon?????????????

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 9 2008 12:20 PM EST

By getting a bigger USD weapon and a bigger pair of USD DBs, of course.

Like like getting a bigger RoBF to beat a RoBF. ;)

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 9 2008 12:30 PM EST

not quite the same gl. it was boring with the robf but when it costs cash...wowzers it's exciting!

QBsutekh137 February 9 2008 12:34 PM EST

They aren't mutually exclusive. Complaining might seem like complaining. Or, it can be seen as striving for game balance. It's not one or the other, and if you think along those terms, it will only polarize us and generate conflict.

Do I tend to seek "balance" in terms that I know, thereby having it seem like I am only serving myself? Sure. Show me a single unbiased person in the game. We all have our biases. That is why open communication and common ground in public forums is so important! The ideas come together to form a balanced whole.

As for why JW can beat Bart -- in my experience, Bart has always developed very balanced characters. That means he does OK against a lot of folks, can find targets, etc. But the right strategy can beat him. I'd have to analyze more to see why it works out that way in that specific fight, but I can believe it.

QBJohnnywas February 9 2008 12:48 PM EST

Bart loses against me because of my evasion. He doesn't touch me at all. PTH not big enough I guess, even in melee. Then my 2 million st, 2 million dex tank triple hits the team for a few rounds and bam. Over.

SimplyNic February 9 2008 12:54 PM EST

Actually sutekh, I really have no negative perspectives of CB...

Evasion is evasion. Either you hit or you don't. That's just how it is...

Talion February 9 2008 12:54 PM EST

One thing to remember here... Ranger is 4 minions tank team not using a ToA. There are not may successful 4 minions tank teams out there, even less when they are not using a ToA.

Yes, Ranger reduces defensive DX to nothing. But without the PTH granted by a ToA, characters with less minions training and boosting defensive DX and PTH would eventually be out of his character's grasp if they had a comparable MPR.

Any multi-minion tank out there that does not have a ToA equipped realizes this fairly quickly.

But this problem has been indirectly exposed by Ranger many times when he correctly observed that Evasion needs to be powerful in order to allow anyone to have a chance of surviving until melee rounds against archers because of the amount of damage they can deal during ranged rounds.

Lower ranged damage and Evasion can be toned down. Leave ranged damage as it is and any reduction to Evasion's power will result in a resurgence or the single ToA archer plague.

The single ToA archer is still a powerful strategy option, but Evasion makes it possible to have effective counter strategies.

This said, there is a fine line between maximizing a skill's effectiveness and downright exploiting it. And I think that right now, the RoBF allows users to exploit Evasion and that is a problem.

... I think I just wrote half a book. :)

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 9 2008 12:54 PM EST

I keep considering what removing the effect of the excess minus PTh would do (ONLY for evasion, if you do that to dbs they will become completely pointless) to balance out evasion.

three4thsforsaken February 9 2008 1:05 PM EST

I think the minus PTH is necessary, though it should probably be on a steeper growth curve.

Take it away, and people will stop training dex altogether with their +100 weapons

I believe evasion should be nerved, by cutting the dex bonus severely, and creating the effect based on a curve. Though outright killing one or the other will simple cause people to move towards DBs and dex, making evasion useless, which is a little harsh for a nerf.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 9 2008 1:08 PM EST

three: you missed a word... excess.

Right now any minus to hit over the opponents weapons PTh is counted against your dex based chance to hit. So when people have -400 to hit and 6 mil defensive dex... NO ONE can hit them.

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 9 2008 1:32 PM EST

Nov, I've advocated that change for ages. ;) Evasion doesn't need to double dip by proving defensive Dex and reducing dex cth after all wepaon pth. ;)

The reduciton of cth from excessive pth was needed/useful when Evasion gave no defensive dex, as it was still impossible to stop a Tank/Archer one shotting you with a massive weapon due to Dex based hits.

Now evasion provides defensive dex, its no longer needed.

AdminQBnovice [Cult of the Valaraukar] February 9 2008 1:35 PM EST

you were also after dbs though GL, which I think is just cruel considering how specific an item they really are...

AdminQBGentlemanLoser [{END}] February 9 2008 1:39 PM EST

Heh, true enough. ;)

three4thsforsaken February 9 2008 1:48 PM EST

Good point I forgot about that.

Perhaps a significant nerf would to be to not allow negative PTH. With less dex and a capped effect, it's usefulness would be still useful to combat USD, but not outright broken for people who do not use USD.

If we either have to outrught kill dex or minus PTH, I would vote for killing dex. And of course putting limits on minus PTH, without those limits though, I agree with Novice
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