For those complaining about the wall (in General)

TheHatchetman February 28 2008 3:41 AM EST

Challenge bonus becomes impossible eventually... But it takes a bit ;) i get 8% challenge bonus on koy Just under 3m MPR... Sick!

Btw, grats to A'boy for beating Koy! ^_^

TheHatchetman February 28 2008 3:46 AM EST

html'd it to avoid spell checker and it came out wrong...

"<Atomicboy> i get 8% challenge bonus on koy"

QBJohnnywas February 28 2008 4:12 AM EST

That last char of mine, Monkey Business was sitting around 2 million score for a while and I was getting nearly 20% challenge bonus up there. It is certainly possible to achieve that kind of situation. You just need to be able to take down some bigger targets.

Flamey February 28 2008 4:14 AM EST

Is this why Ranger trained ~100k MPR?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] February 28 2008 6:21 AM EST

that is when koy didn't had his morg on, with the morg no one can beat him yet again.
And why doesn't the spell checker know the word morg? Really strange, could
an admin add it to the dictionary?

Now im forced to use HTML again. :(

QBJohnnywas February 28 2008 6:22 AM EST

So the mighty RBF wasn't enough to protect Ranger then? Ah bless.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] February 28 2008 6:27 AM EST

Nope the RoBF has some drawbacks:
1. Small damage in comparison to other items or spells
2. Any AC above the 250 and you will see a huge drop in damage
3. Back that up with a ToE and you will see another huge drop.
4. ToE Alone is mostly enough
5. Bigger RoBF's
6. You get plenty of rounds to kill the wearer

QBRanger February 28 2008 6:45 AM EST

Well with the TOE I lose to Conundrum.

With the RBF I win. Both needing my Morg.

QBJohnnywas February 28 2008 6:55 AM EST

Funny how it's ok for a much smaller team to do something like this in this case, but not when those tiny RBF teams were doing the same.

ScY February 28 2008 8:04 AM EST

Fighting around ~1.9M score with a pr of roughly 1.3M, I get a challenge bonus of up to 65% (my largest currently is against Ka, which is 56%)

QBRanger February 28 2008 9:08 AM EST

"Funny how it's ok for a much smaller team to do something like this in this case, but not when those tiny RBF teams were doing the same. "

Much Smaller?????

Conundrum is almost 3M MPR vs my 3.5M MPR.

A huge difference from a 600k MPR character beating up a 2.5M MPR character.

C'mon give decent analogies.

Either way, congrats to AB.

But it is nothing a large MH cannot handle. Barely :)

Ulord[NK] February 28 2008 9:42 AM EST

I wonder what level of evasion AB needs to completely dodge ranger's MH...

QBJohnnywas February 28 2008 9:44 AM EST

Boomstick [84x12021] (+220) worth $203,517,658 owned by QBRanger (Koyaanisqatsi)

So what would be needed? (221) evasion?

chuck1234 February 28 2008 9:46 AM EST

221 DBs? is that equal to 221 evasion? or is there some subtle difference in melee?

Ulord[NK] February 28 2008 9:47 AM EST

close to 3.5 level evasion trained + full boost I think.

Should have over 6mil defensive dex and over 1mil after EC.

Ulord[NK] February 28 2008 9:48 AM EST

3.5mil* level...

DB won't work. You still get hit if you have 0 dex (unless your DB is +300 or something...). You need defensive dex, easiest trained via evasion, and you need enough of it to get through the huge ECs.

QBsutekh137 February 28 2008 9:53 AM EST

Ranger, what is the PR difference when Conundrum is fully loaded and you don't have your Morgul on? Is that the only time he can beat you?

I was reading this tread thinking, "why shouldn't Conundrum beat Koy when Koy doesn't have the Morgul on? Their total PRs are probably pretty close..."

Am I missing something? I didn't realize people thought it was so impossible to beat Koy, especially when he is without some gear...

QBRanger February 28 2008 10:11 AM EST


The MH does not add anything to my PR.

It is without the RBF's abilities, even with my MH, I would lose to Conundrum.

It is a shame that with a 5M effective EC, and a +220 named MH, and 800k base dex, I still only hit Conundrum's mage in melee 2 times a round. Evasion is the best bang for the buck/xp in all of CB. IMO, makes the MgS seem quite pedestrian.

Ulord[NK] February 28 2008 10:16 AM EST

Ranger, why do you have evasion trained? (unless it's base). It's not like any tank in the game hits you for anything worth mentioning with the huge ECs. Wouldn't it be better to just get a massive AMF up front?

Cube February 28 2008 10:19 AM EST

That minion has the RoBf

QBRanger February 28 2008 10:20 AM EST

Typical round vs Conundrum in melee with 4M strength AND a x12000 MH:

The Grid pounded Juggernaut with Boomstick [513993]
Pwnyboy absorbs damage [513993]
The Grid fractured Juggernaut with Boomstick [455930]
Pwnyboy absorbs damage [396754]
The Grid draws strength from his weapon! [11835]

The evasion is base on Cloudscape with a 2M AMF on him/her/it.

Ulord[NK] February 28 2008 10:28 AM EST

Incredible defensive build. PL nullifies your leach as well.

QBRanger February 28 2008 10:33 AM EST

And I did forget my AoL which is named +11. So my entire PTH in melee is:

220 + 7 + 12 = 239.

Combine that with my 5M EC and my 800k dex, it is amazing that in melee I only hit Conundrum 2x in melee rounds.

QBJohnnywas February 28 2008 10:41 AM EST

and "For those complaining about the wall" becomes "for those complaining about evasion". Again. I'm going home.


QBRanger February 28 2008 10:54 AM EST

Well overpowered evasion is the reason Conundrum can beat me, as well as most mage/evasion based teams can beat most tanks now.

Seems we went full circle in this thread.

QBsutekh137 February 28 2008 11:27 AM EST

Well, if your MH doesn't add anything to your PR, then what makes you think it should be all that effective? *smile* Sorry, I think it is ridiculous that so much PR can be completely hidden, so while I agree that evasion is powerful, I'm not ready to feel sorry for ya just yet, Ranger. *smile*

Let's not forget the massive damage reduction and PL going on with Conundrum. Folks are concentrating on Con's offense, but his defense is the classic native HP/PL/ToE/TSA/AC stance. Getting through that is never going to be easy.

You want bang for buck, it's damage reduction. Con's stance just happens to be better than yours in this case. As you once told me a long time ago, if you need to assure you can win, then adapt. Your native HP and AC is far lower than Conundrum's... Maybe it's time you stop talking about how much more effective you think your EC should be and just get rid of the damn stuff. Perhaps try something else instead of insisting what isn't working should be made better? I don't feel I am speaking out of turn, because these are the exact words you told me when I was lamenting losing some folks off my fightlist many moons ago. If it's good enough advice for me, isn't it worthwhile to consider for yourself?

I agree that Evasion is a bit too powerful...but is anyone going to agree with me that damage reduction layers and HP-regen are equally "over-powered"?

QBsutekh137 February 28 2008 11:32 AM EST

By the way, another issue here (smaller, but still applicable) is the ToE binary nature (again!). Your Morgul hits, while two of them, aren't as large as they could be because you are probably not quite completely overwhelming Con's ToE. Then, his PL and TSA kick in to keep him regenerated. That DEFINITELY applies to the RoBF blows when you are without your weapon.

Meanwhile, his CoC blows are so large that they can overwhelm your tattoo if you make it a ToE (like Oxcha got overwhelmed by Violent Femmes).

If it weren't such a binary switch, your blows would probably be larger and his would probably be smaller, leading to closer battles and more gradual upheavals. Sadly, that isn't the case.

QBRanger February 28 2008 11:35 AM EST

Well Sut, when your up vs a 5M FB or CoC, the layers of damage reduction are a necessity.

Remember that DD always hits and only the + on armor (except for the MgS) apply to reducing that damage. Also, one has to love the NSC that makes AMF virtually useless near the top due to the extreme values of DD spells. The new addition of the AoF to familiars with junction makes things much more skewed.

As a tank, I have to put xp into multiple areas including matching 1/3 my strength with archery. Considering archery is letting me hit evasion with all my bonuses 1 or 2 times a round, that is a lot of xp that is almost useless.

The EC I use is the only reason I can hit large evasion minions anyway. I removed the EC on my enchanters with MgS's and guess what???
I MISSED conundrum quite a lot in melee, FREAKING melee. What more should I do? Use a TOA? It will give me some dex but almost no PTH due to my MsB/MH's size.

In short, the layers of damage reduction is the only thing keeping most tanks alive given the fact they never hit in missile, take 4 rounds of "free" DD damage, have their AMF nuked by the NSC, and frequently miss in melee as well.

What should tanks now do?

QBOddBird February 28 2008 11:39 AM EST

(except for the MgS)

and EH

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 28 2008 11:46 AM EST

welcome to the game that the rest of us have been playing ranger. one strategy should not be able to beat all the rest...rock/paper/scissors.

a lack of sympathy on our part may be due to the belief that when one cannot beat everyone, the game must be broken. most of us for months have been thinking that when one cannot be beaten by anyone the game was broken, as it was with the beleg's issue.

as for your ec issue, remember half of its effect is strength reduction.

QBsutekh137 February 28 2008 11:48 AM EST

As I have stated several times now on several thread, if that is really all true, and once everything is "balanced" and mages still dominate tanks, then do the very, very, very simple step of reducing DD.

I fail to understand how everyone is caught up in all of these intricate scenarios when the simple answer (in addition to fixing all these other things) is to reduce DD if it really is such an unstoppable force.

And I would be totally fine with that.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] February 28 2008 1:07 PM EST

"what should tanks do?"

Stop complaining, you beat him anyway. What is your problem?

QBRanger February 28 2008 1:19 PM EST

I only beat him due to a 220M NW MH and a 100M NW not that useful vs evasion MsB.

If I use a normal weapons, lets say only 60M NW, I lose.

That is what I am typing about.

QBOddBird February 28 2008 1:19 PM EST

It is a testament to the power of the ROBF that you beat him to start with, Ranger, considering your team is almost exclusively anti-tank (all that XP in EC.)

If you can beat him without that DD reduction of the RoBF, it is proof that mages actually need a buff.

QBRanger February 28 2008 1:23 PM EST

Well Booty,

Without the RBF, even with all my massive NW, I cannot beat Conundrum as evasion is currently set up.

Perhaps that is what Jon and the game wants/needs. If so, great. I will adapt as I have numerous times in the past.

QBOddBird February 28 2008 1:27 PM EST

Nah, from what I've heard Jon said earlier that Evasion needed a fix.

He just hasn't gotten around to it yet, and no amount of whining or complaining will put him on our timetable.

Wizard'sFirstRule February 28 2008 2:44 PM EST

I really think EC isn't that effective even against tank. mages don't care about it because evasion have more than defensive dex and you lose 1/2 the effect to -STR. tanks can usually still do decent damage with a massive weapon, and giving -stats on weapon from XP is just plain stupid.

Brakke Bres [Ow man] February 28 2008 3:18 PM EST

I really can't see your problem, you have the top spot in this game, the number 1 character, the best weapons available, 300k mpr advantage on about everyone, enough equipment to change your strategy five times over, and all you do is moan whine and complain about evasion, I don't see anyone else moan about it.
No one lower then you is complaining about evasion, and what are you calling normal???? 60mil nw? If there wasn't USD allowed Ill bet that weapons didn't even reached that level by now!
So stop moaning and complaining about one single skill in CB and play the frickin' or quit.
Either one, your choice.

AdminShade February 28 2008 3:21 PM EST

Complaining about the wall?

Cube February 28 2008 3:29 PM EST

With 0 Strength, you completely nullify their damage. It is also just as effective as dex (besides the fact that it cannot be boosted by items) assuming that you are going to be getting max dex advantage.

Enemy has 1,000,000 dex
I have 1,000,000 dex and 1,000,000 levels to train

Training EC
Enemy has 1,000,000 dex - 500,000 dex = 500,000 effective dex
I have 1,000,000 dex - x2 dex advantage & the added effect of less damage due to less strength

Training Dex
Enemy has 1,000,000 dex
I have 2,000,000 dex - x2 dex advantage

Both achieve the same dex advantage assuming you are getting the advantage. If however you have less xp...

Enemy has 1,000,000 dex
I have 20 dex - 1,000,000 levels to train

Training EC
Enemy has 1,000,000 dex - 500,000 dex = 500,000 effective dex
I have 20 dex - no advantage

Training Dex
Enemy has 1,000,000 dex
I have 1,000,000 dex - even dex

Maybe that will explain to people why EC is good...

Tyriel [123456789] February 28 2008 3:33 PM EST

"No one lower then you is complaining about evasion,"

Sorry, I and all the others will try to remember to speak all of our thoughts next time. :)

I'm sure if you CM'd everybody that is active in CB about whether or not they think Evasion is overpowered, then you'd get a pretty distinct answer.

Soxjr February 28 2008 3:42 PM EST

Henk. Just to not get my blood pressure up I will just post a link to a thread I made not long ago completely complaining about evasion.
My Post
Oh and to explain further, I have a 50 mil + nw weapon and not using usd. So weapons can get that big, but the point is without usd I can't hit barely any of the evasions out there, but again I quit complaining about it because it just is frustrating. lol

QBBast [Hidden Agenda] February 28 2008 3:44 PM EST

You can see them from outer space!

Brakke Bres [Ow man] February 28 2008 3:45 PM EST

No i agree with soxjr, evasion is very powerful with the robf, if your able to focus 100% of the mpr in it. But on its own. You find a way to beat it.

QBRanger February 28 2008 3:46 PM EST

"No one lower then you is complaining about evasion,"

Did you really really just type that?

I mean seriously?

Have you not seen the 100 threads on how overpowered evasion is?

And have you not seen my discussion on how it impacts non-USD spenders far more then me?

I can adapt easily.

Tezmac February 28 2008 3:47 PM EST

How sorry for you can I really feel though when you're sitting with 4M ST and nearly 3M HP and only 850k DX? On an archer nonetheless...

Brakke Bres [Ow man] February 28 2008 3:47 PM EST

let me rephrase: no one lower then you isn't complaining as much as you. Non USD spenders? everyone should be non USD.

QBRanger February 28 2008 3:55 PM EST


Did you not read Soxjr's thread?

Or just "overlook" it?


I have 5M effective EC to compensate. Get rid of all my EC and even with 3M native dex I would do much worse. So the EC is effectively my dexterity. Same effect, but I use a different minion to achieve it. Where is the difference?

Flamey February 28 2008 3:59 PM EST

"and "For those complaining about the wall" becomes "for those complaining about evasion". Again. I'm going home.


Ulord[NK] February 28 2008 4:00 PM EST

Let's be patient Ranger. We all know Evasion is broken, magnificently so. Jon acknowledged that and he agreed to fix it. I believe we are due for a change month in March anyways. I do feel that since your team is 85% concentrated on combating tank teams, the fact that you can edge out a heavy mage team designed to beat you is pretty good already. In fact, to me that is balanced. If you put 50% of your exp into amf or other mage specific spells, ABoy would have trouble touching you. But he'll probably run a tank team then. Rock, paper scissor remember?

Tezmac February 28 2008 4:12 PM EST

"I have 5M effective EC to compensate. Get rid of all my EC and even with 3M native dex I would do much worse. So the EC is effectively my dexterity. Same effect, but I use a different minion to achieve it. Where is the difference?"

I also misspoke, your DX is a lowly 650k, not 850k.

Its not the same though. EC only acts at 50% effectiveness. Keep your EC as it's on your other minions, untrain half your ST exp, and put it into DX. It'll only cut your damage by 25%if I understand Jon's damage rule correctly (where if X[weap]+Y[ST]=N[damage] then 2X[weap]+2Y[ST]=2N[damage]). Would that be enough DX to get you over his evasion hump so you'd hit a round or two earlier?

QBRanger February 28 2008 4:16 PM EST

Is not 5M nuked from other characters dexterity not enough???

How much more do I have to put into EC or my own tanks strength?

Brakke Bres [Ow man] February 28 2008 4:21 PM EST

you're still able to beat everyone?
if Yes see answer A
if No see answer B
if omg someone beat me one time see answer C

A. Adapt.
B. Continue what your doing.
C. Spend USD

Like Tezmac said, rock paper scissors.
Evasion will get fixed sooner or later, so there is no real point to complain about it. Now quit it already and play the game

Tezmac February 28 2008 4:27 PM EST

"Is not 5M nuked from other characters dexterity not enough???
How much more do I have to put into EC or my own tanks strength? "

Apparently it isn't. In those early rounds he's nuking your CTH with the evasion multiplier. Also in those early rounds (with the same mulitplier), your EC doesn't get his defensive DX low enough as your DX is too miniscule to overcome it.

So I guess you can either keep training ST and EC (at 50% effectiveness) while he trains evasion and gets a fat bonus on the DX granted in the missile rounds and you'll never catch up, or you can train some DX of your own while still training EC and overcome his advantage.

I dont know why you asked "how much more ST do I need" when your issue is clearly (to me at least) DX.

QBRanger February 28 2008 4:33 PM EST


With all the bonuses an evasion person gets (EC, EB, EG, AoF), how can my dex compete. Especially with all the archer equipment I need. Without the BG's I do about 150k damage a hit to Conundrum and 700k to 0 AC minions. Vs novice with his 4M hp a minion thats nothing.

However, I am adding dex all the time. However due to the overpowered exbow (another thread), I have to use DB's if I want to someday change from the RBF.

Imagine if I did not have a 5M EC. Where would I be then with a +220 named MsB and +5 arrows? I would miss entirely unless I only had 1M str and 5M dex.

QBRanger February 28 2008 4:37 PM EST


You still do not get it.

I certainly can beat everyone now. However, what about those that do not use USD. Like Soxjr. Where should he fall in all this? Because USD is in the game, does that mean that non-USD spenders cannot play a tank.

I have proposed solutions but you fail to address them. I want to see balance. But you still think everything I type is for me only. Well nothing I can do will change that.

QBsutekh137 February 28 2008 4:56 PM EST

Ranger, you have good points, but you lose me when you start saying, "And if I change that, then how do I fight a big exbow...?"

Here's the answer to that: YOU DON'T.

Like the rest of us, you choose the targets that you can beat, and you LOSE to the rest of them. That's the game. No matter how big you are.

Alternately, you can be a whiner like me and kinda-sorta dislike the rock/scissors/paper aspect of the game, especially when it becomes so binary that we might as well just all have three colors of weapons and three colors of armor, where red beats green, green beats blue, and blue beats red. I actually CAN'T STAND game dynamics of that nature, but I figured out a long time ago that I was in a pretty small minority. Other people like rock/scissors/paper, and no one is entitled to beat everyone. In fact, no one is entitled to beat more than one-third of the folks (by pure r/s/p math) *smile*

Violent Femmes beating Oxcha is the most recent example of an EXTREME rock/scissors/paper. I obliterate VF in one round, VF beat's Oxcha, and Oxcha beats me without even breaking a sweat (and I cannot beat Oxcha even in 5-6 battles in a row last time I checked). There's no "yeah but" in there. It is all choices. I went all DM. VF went all DEs and CoC. And Oxcha went all damage reduction with no DM, his hard-to-overwhelm ToE holding it all together. As soon as it was overwhelmed, bang, the house of cards falls down. What is tungsten steel against some is cracked glass against others.

NS chose to build a super-huge exbow. Others invest heavily in SoD and exshot. Some spend MPR on DEs while other's spend it on DM.

Every time I hear you mention EC, it appears to involve one of the following:

-- My EC investment is huge, so should mean more.
-- If I didn't use EC, I would lose to some other people/tactics.
-- What else to invest in?

The first one is moot. It will work as well as it works, and no better. You can't depend on a change no matter how glaring the Evasion issue (and I agree with you that Evasion needs a change, as long as several other things accompany that change).

The second one is entirely off the mark, because it assumes you shouldn't lose to some others. There used to be a character on CB1 called Transcendental Number (Fark's character). He was all EC, just to be a tank buster. I rose the ranks and didn't even think twice when I was able to beat him (I was TM, and my mage component was enough to kill him -- he had little offense). In some battles, his EC wasn't worth much, so he chose different targets.

The last one is always tough. I haven't known what else to invest in for over six months. So I just keep shoving experience into DM and some AS, and recently got back to growing my DD again on my main mage. The reason it is hard to invest in new things is because we have too much rock/scissors/paper. If you are a rock, it is far too easy to beat the scissors, and nearly impossible to beat the paper. I think that sucks. But it's what people like. When I say things like the fact that I think a 2x MPR advantage and decent NW should be able to fend of just about any strategy, I find that many people (perhaps even a majority, it's hard to tell) disagree with that.

People like rock/scissors/paper, and evasion is too strong for the investment. That's all I can say, and in both ways, I am pretty much agreeing with you.

QBsutekh137 February 28 2008 5:02 PM EST

Let's talk about Soxjr:

Score: ~46th in the game
MPR: ~39
Total PR: ~31

And he's single-minion, and we all know that is a tough row. No help from PL, no auras, no kill slots, no tattoo holder, no AoL usage, hard to have enchantments, etc. etc.

Not to mention that single-minion leaves the ability to hire into more MPR later.

I'd say Soxjr is doing pretty damn well, all things considered. What's the problem?

If you think Soxjr's lot in the game should be higher, then shouldn't you be fighting for more lesser-minion advantages in the game? Or penalties for multi-minions?

I haven't heard a peep from you in that regard. Why not? If you are worried about Soxjr, let's solve this issue!

QBRanger February 28 2008 5:18 PM EST


I have been an advocate for single minion teams.

The AoL should work on them.

I have posted in the past about letting single minions use a tattoo and armor and a power shield, etc...

QBsutekh137 February 28 2008 5:21 PM EST

Sorry, I didn't recall that.

In any case, I think Soxjr. is doing pretty well, at least on paper. We all have anecdotal stories of who we think we SHOULD be able to beat, and the pain of losing people off fightlists etc. Hell, I practically invented the "Why can't I beat so-and-so whingefest... But those days are behind me, and I've given over to this being the way CB is, and if anything, it will become that way even more as time goes on (has been the trend ever since CB2 came up). So, from there it is just a decision on whether or not to stick around...

QBJohnnywas February 28 2008 5:24 PM EST

I'd kiss my cousin.

Admindudemus [jabberwocky] February 28 2008 5:41 PM EST

"Because USD is in the game, does that mean that non-USD spenders cannot play a tank."

for as long as i have been in cb, jon's reply to that would be that tanks need more net worth and mages need more xp to operate well. with that being said and in response to your query, they can do fine without usd, it will just take much longer...they will still get their net worth slowly as mages do with xp.

usd has really just allowed some players the ability to bypass the work involved and spend cash to get ahead in the early stages of cb2 or to catch up faster now, when used in conjunction with ncb.

there has to be some counter to usd and there has to be some level where xp can overwhelm, otherwise why would mages stick around solely to be fodder? in summation, if you choose tank you will have to get net worth, it can be done slowly over time or quickly with usd. it may not be perfectly balanced at the moment, but it is not as broken as some seem to think either.
This thread is closed to new posts. However, you are welcome to reference it from a new thread; link this with the html <a href="/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002Mem">For those complaining about the wall</a>